Why can't the market have some MMOs where ALL content can be done solo, and those who prefer to group can do so out of choice?
If all the content can be done solo then it can be packaged as a single player game. There is absolutely no need to create multiplayer options for a game that can be an entirely individual experience.
I'm not suggesting removing all group content from all MMOs, but for all the times I've seen groupers complain about how solo-friendly some MMOs are, I've seen exactly ONE that has a soloable endgame. That means heavily favoring one style over the other.
Most, if not all, new MMO's are completely soloable from first to last level. Don't you think it's fair that the people interested in grouping now get a chance at enjoying their own style of play? On the flipside, how would you like to play a game that you were forced to group from first to last level, and only after that are you able to solo?
You can solo from beginning to end, but you are missing out on content. And it takes you longer. If extra content and faster levelling isn't enough motivation to group up, what else do you want?
But most people aren't talking about any of those things either, especially not in a group. Very very few groups I've been in have said anything to each other. Kill the mob, move on to the next. Rinse, lather, repeat. Not a word spoken, just run like mad from mob to mob to get as much XP as you can, then everyone goes their separate ways, never to see each other again.
That's likely because you're grouping in a game that is soloable to endgame. You've just run into the people that are exactly like you. They don't want to group but they have to do the quest they're on, so they group up, run through the quest, get it done, move back to their solo content. That's just the sort of society you're going to find in games that are solo affairs. Don't like it? Well, that's the type of thing you're advocating.
I'm so bored of listening to this stuff. Everytime you post something it's just a repeat of the last time, over and over, like a stuck record jumping back to repeat the same tune again and again. Drone drone.. So tired of it. Someone can come along and give the perfect reason why group play is better than solo play, everyone will go, "Wow, that's so true!", except you who will say profit.. blah.. people want.. blah.. prove it..
Because I'm not blinded by the gameplay, I recognize that the business behind it exists to make money, something that most of the people around here who have never had a serious job in their life, especially not one where they were financially responsible for an entire business. I have. No matter how much people might ooh and ahh about the mechanics of the game, it's still balancing the books at the end of the month that makes the difference whether you like it or not. The investors don't give a damn how the game plays, they care how much money they are making.
You might try listening to what people have to say and consider the responses they have before singing the same tune all the time, you might learn something about people and what they actually want, rather than what a statistic on a market researchers board says in some backroom office. Had enough of this topic, it's just turned into nonsense and is well away from the entire point which is Group Play or Solo Play.
Because whether Group Play or Solo Play wins is entirely dependent on which side can bring in the most money. Full stop. Ideally, a game will provide both sides enough impetus to sign up and pay a monthly fee, but if push comes to shove, it is the soloer side who has the financial strength to rule the day. You, like a lot of other groupers around here, have an entitlement fantasy. You think somehow everyone owes you whatever you want, just because you want it. Life doesn't work that way. I might want to walk into Baskin Robbins and get free ice cream, that doesn't mean they have any obligation to give it to me and in fact, they'd be foolish to do so. They're in business to make money, just as every MMO developer out there is. Giving away their product, catering to unprofitable sectors, just because someone wants them to do so is financial suicide.
In my eyes MMO's have always been designed, and should stay designed, with the multiplayer experience in mind. Teaming up to combat challenges too large to face alone. To be a part of something special rather than just a person doing the same quests that the guy next to you is doing. Multiplayer games have never been for loners, they're a shared experience, be it combating an enemy team or working together to defeat a dragon. It's always been about more than just the individual, it's about what people can do when they work together.
You can sit there all day and argue that chocolate is better than vanilla, that doesn't mean that anyone is obligated to give you chocolate ice cream. You're just arguing for your own personal preferences, then making unjustified claims that because they are your preferences, they are automatically true for everyone. There may have been a time when almost all of the very tiny group of existing MMOs were group-centric. Times change. It's the move away from a single playstyle that has allowed the marketplace to go from two or three MMOs to hundreds worldwide. It's like you bitching that cars come in lots of colors because Henry Ford once insisted that Model T's only come in black. That may have been true at one time, it's not true today. Stop living in the past. Deal with the reality that actually exists today.
Quoted for truth. Just because you like something done a certain way does not mean the majority of the playerbase shares your opinion. You can say that flavored water is designed for women, but it's true that man drink flavored water, too.
By your logic, all fps games should be designed like Wolfenstein 3D and Doom, because that was how the genre started. See how little sense that makes?
You can solo from beginning to end, but you are missing out on content. And it takes you longer. If extra content and faster levelling isn't enough motivation to group up, what else do you want?
Very small amounts of content. Taking LOTRO as an example, there were one, maybe two areas per geographical location that were meant to be grouped through. When you consider how many other quests there are in that game, those four or five quests in group locations really aren't a big loss. Not to mention the fact that I went back recently and all those old group areas are also now soloable.
And why would I want to level faster? If I level faster then I also miss out on content because I level past it. So you can solo and miss content or group and miss content. Balancing the two, which most sane people would do, means you see it all without rushing ahead.
Ever notice that games with a great community seem to usually always have the best gameplay? You can usually tell a lot about a game by it's community. If people are happy they tend to not complain as much in chat.
I still don't understand why people can't see that we can have both group and solo play in the same game? The best analogy I've come up with is climbing a mountain.
Some people are going to want to take the trail. It's a long, easy path with great scenery. You could do it alone if you wanted, but that could be boring so a lot of people will do it with friends.
Some people will find a vertical face and go straight up... Maybe others will go before them, or after them, but when it comes down to it, it's just them and the mountain.
Others will take a rough route, rope themselves together. and if one falls they all fall.
And some may just have a picnic in a meadow at that bottom.
But they all get to climb the mountain, they all get to gain some personel experience, they all get to have a good time enjoying the mountain in the way that suits them best.
These threads are so frustrating. So many people ignore logic when arguing for one point or another. As I see it, the group vs. solo debate is not about "groupers" wishing there was no solo content, or soloers wishing there was no group content. It is more about the balance, and even more about the level of rewards. What I would like to hear is:
1. What do both sides feel is the appropriate balance: 50% group, 25% raid, 25% solo? Something else?
2. Why do soloers feel they need/deserve gear as good as what dungeons and raids give? If your not going to run those dungeons/raids, isn't your need only to have gear sufficient to do the solo content, which in every game I've played requires lesser gear than the dungeons/raids? And if the quality of the gear soloers gets is as good as the dungeon/raids drop, than is that only going to create a situation where everyone gears up solo as it is the path of least resistance, and thus what the soloers want will harm the gameplay of groupers?
These threads are so frustrating. So many people ignore logic when arguing for one point or another. As I see it, the group vs. solo debate is not about "groupers" wishing there was no solo content, or soloers wishing there was no group content. It is more about the balance, and even more about the level of rewards. What I would like to hear is:
1. What do both sides feel is the appropriate balance: 50% group, 25% raid, 25% solo? Something else?
2. Why do soloers feel they need/deserve gear as good as what dungeons and raids give? If your not going to run those dungeons/raids, isn't your need only to have gear sufficient to do the solo content, which in every game I've played requires lesser gear than the dungeons/raids? And if the quality of the gear soloers gets is as good as the dungeon/raids drop, than is that only going to create a situation where everyone gears up solo as it is the path of least resistance, and thus what the soloers want will harm the gameplay of groupers?
What is everyones thoughts on these questions?
You posed good questions in a respectful manner so I will try my best to answer them.
1. I don't know how to answer this question. Personally I feel the balance should be fairly equal although I think in most games, group oriented or not, solo content seems pretty high on the percentage; more like 50% solo, 25% group and 25% raid (including leveling and end game). I would like to see this number balanced out throughout the whole game. Meaning more group (even raid like) content while leveling and more solo options at end game.
2. I feel every play style should have an opportunity to the same gear. End game is a way to progress after you level, group/raid content should not award a special level but rather get you to that level faster. By limiting end game progression to raiding you are not allowing players who prefer small groups or solo to progress. I love raiding but I think it should be threaded in throughout the entire game rather than the ultimate end game goal grind.
In regards to 'raid gear', if you increase mobs/bosses health and damage but also increase the gear required to do the raid encounter you are doing nothing more than raising the numbers for naught. Those high numbers are over inflating the gear desperation and making solo content for raiders trivial. If you need to tier raiding (do lower ones to get to higher ones) then it should be done by an achievement system. Once you complete the first raid, you unlock the next one.
I do not agree with grinding the same raid over and over just to increase playability. I think there are other ways to keep players playing. Instead of trying to force grouping I feel developers should encourage community. When you force players to group they are not making friends but using others to get what they need. I feel this could be a key factor causing the corruption in our current communities.
Grouping should be a rewarding option for people who wish to play with their friends, not something that is forced. You can't make players be friends but you can give them an opportunity to meet, create bonds and feel they belong to the world. Not everyone likes raiding - MMO in my opinion is more about community, not only grouping with other players but all the ways you can interact with them.
If raid gear is made equal to solo gear people would raid less. I think that could be one of the best things to happen to raiding. Raiding was fun back in the day, people did it because they loved it and the success was the ultimate reward.... the gear was nothing more than icing on a cake. Then everyone wanted that gear so the developers took the idea and ran with it.
As soon as raiding became mainstream it went downstream. Instead of tuning raid encounters for raiders, they are making them so that everyone could do them. In my opinion it lost the aspects that made it exciting, it has been diluted to nothing more than a welfare grind. Leave the grouping/raids to those of us that enjoy it and encourage the gear greedy gluttons to do something else.
After reading through this thread I've noticed that people of the different sides share very similar traits. Here are a few that are more obvious:
SOLOER
Soloers are inherently selfish. They want to be able to do everything in an MMO, be able to loot everything, be able to go everywhere and they don't want to share any of that experience with anyone else. Not only that but they want developers to create a game that caters purely to their tastes, removing grouping entirely to make a solo-centric game where everyone does their own thing and everyone has access to everything. In their solo-based games they hate having to group to complete quests, expecting the other group members to be stupid or jerks. What they fail to realise is that the people grouping with them are just like them, solo-based games make for poor communities as everyone wants to work alone and then feels forced to group when a quest makes them do so. Thus not only do they just want to get the job done, they've likely had very little experience in groups and appear as poor players as a result.
GROUPER
The grouper is at the other end of the spectrum. They like to work with others to acheive things, they redo raids or quests so other members of their group can gather the same equipment. Already having access to everything in game, as they balance both solo and group play, they don't need to make demands and cries for things to be how they want it. The only request they make is that developers create a game with more focus on group play, however they don't want this to be to the detriment of the soloer, they want soloing to remain an option, albeit a smaller one. They love to group in their group-based games as group-based games make for a better community, as everyone knows their role and has had group practice since the very low levels. Also, they're not worried about stupid people and jerks, as the community would have made them more obvious in the earlier levels.
Agree or Disagee with this as you choose, but from all the posts so far, this is how I perceive the two sides to be.
Most of the player interaction that solo players advocate can be simulated by a program. In fact, even the player interaction in combat (NPC companions) can be simulated. You could simulate chat, but it would be obvious that you were talking to a machine. A machine isn't going to talk tactics and strategy, at least not dynamically. A machine isn't going to understand your difficulties and want to help. The main problem I have with solo players is that the developers cater to them, and then I am left with fewer and fewer players to interact with dynamically. It's fine if you want to solo, but pretty soon everyone else will want to do it too. And then we might as well all be playing single-player games in my opinion.
But most people aren't talking about any of those things either, especially not in a group. Very very few groups I've been in have said anything to each other. Kill the mob, move on to the next. Rinse, lather, repeat. Not a word spoken, just run like mad from mob to mob to get as much XP as you can, then everyone goes their separate ways, never to see each other again.
To be honest, I'd rather have NPC companions than most actual players because at least NPCs don't screw up and kill the party.
Well the biggest reason for that is due mostly to solo play in MMORPGs in my opinion. People don't talk or work together in groups anymore because they don't have to. Which is great for you. Congratulations.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
1. What do both sides feel is the appropriate balance: 50% group, 25% raid, 25% solo? Something else?
Games ought to be 100% soloable and 100% groupable. I'd really like to see the game adapt based on an indivual player's settings and current situation. If you're set groupable, if you're in a group, the game ought to adapt both the number, type and characteristics of the mobs to correspond to the player. Mobs in a grouping situation ought to act differently than movs in a soloing situation. It ought to be about the individual experience, but so many pro-groupers want *EVERYONE* to be forced to do things their way. They're more concerned about everyone else and not about just playing the damn game.
2. Why do soloers feel they need/deserve gear as good as what dungeons and raids give? If your not going to run those dungeons/raids, isn't your need only to have gear sufficient to do the solo content, which in every game I've played requires lesser gear than the dungeons/raids? And if the quality of the gear soloers gets is as good as the dungeon/raids drop, than is that only going to create a situation where everyone gears up solo as it is the path of least resistance, and thus what the soloers want will harm the gameplay of groupers?
Precisely how does it harm the gameplay of groupers? How does *ANYTHING* I do harm someone else's gameplay unless they're just being gear whores and dick-waving asshats? What I'm doing over here all by myself has no bearing whatsoever on what you and your group are doing all the way over there. My playing the way I want to play does not impact your playing the way you want to play. The problem is that so many people want to feel like bigshots, they get the super-mega-gear and the unbelievable weapons that they can swing around and act like it means something. Those people are idiots. It doesn't matter if everyone in the game has the same weapons and the same armor, that doesn't impact the actual gameplay one bit. Again, if you have adaptive difficulty, where how hard a dungeon is, and the drops a dungeon provides, is geared directly to the group going through it, what the hell difference does it make if it's a group or a soloer going through?
1. No such adaptive system exists, and if it did, I'd be very surprised to see it work as you describe. How exactly would a dragon act differently against one player then against many? And there is ony thing you must understand about one person fighting a dangerous dragon and winning. IT'S LAME. It breaks everything that makes a big, dramatic battle cool and fun. It is not satisfying to just say "oh, we'll bring more people and make it cooler". It doesn't make it cooler. The same way that putting bear traps on the floor doesn't make walking across the kitchen more fun. It's only a challenge if you have to overcome it. It's not fun to just throw extra people at an encounter to scale it up. You playing our game the way you want does ruin it for us, because the game mechanics will not be designed around large battles. They'll be designed around single players doing the same things they do when they grind boars.
2. And here is how you having the same rewards as us is a problem. It trivializes our achievements. I get how you don't understand that. Since you are apparently someone who doesn't undertake difficult challenges, I'm sure you don't know the satsifaction that comes from overcoming them. We do want the recognition. We're A type people. We're the leaders of communities, the trailblazers, we really are better. And it's really lame when some jerk who hasn't an iota of what we have ganks us and dances over our corpses. And it's even lamer when games are designed to cater to these jerks. We're sick of it.
MMOs exist because of us. We are the ones who made them popular, and is it because of us that you can play them at all. Our games are epic and cool. Your games are dumb. We don't want to play your dumb games, and we don't want our cool games dumbed down so you can play them.
It's no different from endlessly repetative pop music, nor from shallow pulp fiction novels, nor from mindless specticle movies. The unwashed masses have gotten their claws on MMOs. Congratz on being the lowest common denominator. Your mother must be so proud.
Important facts: 1. Free to Play games are poorly made. 2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals. 3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE. 4. Community is more important than you think.
2. Why do soloers feel they need/deserve gear as good as what dungeons and raids give? If your not going to run those dungeons/raids, isn't your need only to have gear sufficient to do the solo content, which in every game I've played requires lesser gear than the dungeons/raids? And if the quality of the gear soloers gets is as good as the dungeon/raids drop, than is that only going to create a situation where everyone gears up solo as it is the path of least resistance, and thus what the soloers want will harm the gameplay of groupers?
Precisely how does it harm the gameplay of groupers? How does *ANYTHING* I do harm someone else's gameplay unless they're just being gear whores and dick-waving asshats? What I'm doing over here all by myself has no bearing whatsoever on what you and your group are doing all the way over there. My playing the way I want to play does not impact your playing the way you want to play. The problem is that so many people want to feel like bigshots, they get the super-mega-gear and the unbelievable weapons that they can swing around and act like it means something. Those people are idiots. It doesn't matter if everyone in the game has the same weapons and the same armor, that doesn't impact the actual gameplay one bit. Again, if you have adaptive difficulty, where how hard a dungeon is, and the drops a dungeon provides, is geared directly to the group going through it, what the hell difference does it make if it's a group or a soloer going through?
Ouch, a lot of offensive words for the majority of mmo player base. Why are you so angry anyway.
I have a question though. Why soloers want to play in a mmo. I know why I do. I want to cooperate with or play against other peoples.I solo only when I can't find a group and it bores me out of my mind when I am soloing. That's the reason why I play these games. But why does a soloer want to play a mmo?
1. No such adaptive system exists, and if it did, I'd be very surprised to see it work as you describe. How exactly would a dragon act differently against one player then against many? And there is ony thing you must understand about one person fighting a dangerous dragon and winning. IT'S LAME. It breaks everything that makes a big, dramatic battle cool and fun. It is not satisfying to just say "oh, we'll bring more people and make it cooler". It doesn't make it cooler. The same way that putting bear traps on the floor doesn't make walking across the kitchen more fun. It's only a challenge if you have to overcome it. It's not fun to just throw extra people at an encounter to scale it up. You playing our game the way you want does ruin it for us, because the game mechanics will not be designed around large battles. They'll be designed around single players doing the same things they do when they grind boars.
One dragon probably wouldn't, but a lot of groupers complain about the mob dynamics, that they ought to come running to help their "friends" if they're being attacked by a big group of warriors just a few feet away. The way that groups of mobs are aggroed ought to be different for a group than for a solo player. When you're talking about a single boss mob like a dragon, that probably won't apply, although I might expect to see more AOE attacks against a group than I would against a single player.
2. And here is how you having the same rewards as us is a problem. It trivializes our achievements. I get how you don't understand that. Since you are apparently someone who doesn't undertake difficult challenges, I'm sure you don't know the satsifaction that comes from overcoming them. We do want the recognition. We're A type people. We're the leaders of communities, the trailblazers, we really are better. And it's really lame when some jerk who hasn't an iota of what we have ganks us and dances over our corpses. And it's even lamer when games are designed to cater to these jerks. We're sick of it.
I couldn't care less about your achievements. If you feel the need to swing your e-peen around, I pity you. If all you're doing is showing off, that's pretty damn pathetic, sorry.
MMOs exist because of us. We are the ones who made them popular, and is it because of us that you can play them at all. Our games are epic and cool. Your games are dumb. We don't want to play your dumb games, and we don't want our cool games dumbed down so you can play them.
Hardly. Even if you want to claim you started the trend, MMOs outgrew you years ago. You, or the segment of the gaming population that you represent, is financially and numerically irrelevant today. Like it or not, MMOs have outgrown you. Whining about it won't change that fact.
It's no different from endlessly repetative pop music, nor from shallow pulp fiction novels, nor from mindless specticle movies. The unwashed masses have gotten their claws on MMOs. Congratz on being the lowest common denominator. Your mother must be so proud.
My, you have a vast and entirely undeserved superior view of yourself, don't you? MMO developers are laughing all the way to the bank, you're irrelevant and you don't even know it.
I have a question though. Why soloers want to play in a mmo. I know why I do. I want to cooperate with or play against other peoples.I solo only when I can't find a group and it bores me out of my mind when I am soloing. That's the reason why I play these games. But why does a soloer want to play a mmo?
The reality is, everyone plays for their own reasons. Your reasons are no better than anyone else's. Stop pretending that they are. As a soloer, I want to play an MMO because it's a huge, ever-changing world that contains far, far, far more content than any single-player game ever could, it contains lots of different people to interact with and new content is always being added. Give me a single-player game that I can play for years on end without ever seeing all the content, I'll go play that.
Until then, you're welcome to your opinions, but my money is just as good as yours. Stop pretending that your views are any more valid than anyone else's. They're not.
2. Why do soloers feel they need/deserve gear as good as what dungeons and raids give? If your not going to run those dungeons/raids, isn't your need only to have gear sufficient to do the solo content, which in every game I've played requires lesser gear than the dungeons/raids? And if the quality of the gear soloers gets is as good as the dungeon/raids drop, than is that only going to create a situation where everyone gears up solo as it is the path of least resistance, and thus what the soloers want will harm the gameplay of groupers?
Precisely how does it harm the gameplay of groupers? How does *ANYTHING* I do harm someone else's gameplay unless they're just being gear whores and dick-waving asshats? What I'm doing over here all by myself has no bearing whatsoever on what you and your group are doing all the way over there. My playing the way I want to play does not impact your playing the way you want to play. The problem is that so many people want to feel like bigshots, they get the super-mega-gear and the unbelievable weapons that they can swing around and act like it means something. Those people are idiots. It doesn't matter if everyone in the game has the same weapons and the same armor, that doesn't impact the actual gameplay one bit. Again, if you have adaptive difficulty, where how hard a dungeon is, and the drops a dungeon provides, is geared directly to the group going through it, what the hell difference does it make if it's a group or a soloer going through?
Ouch, a lot of offensive words for the majority of mmo player base. Why are you so angry anyway.
I have a question though. Why soloers want to play in a mmo. I know why I do. I want to cooperate with or play against other peoples.I solo only when I can't find a group and it bores me out of my mind when I am soloing. That's the reason why I play these games. But why does a soloer want to play a mmo?
Imagine if you can for a second I as what you might call a "soloer" don't get bored out of my mind playing by myself as you say you do, but I do bore of sitting and waiting around to start a group,everyone to get on the same part/page, people needing to leave and be replaced etc.. And that's as honest an answer as I can give for the most part I play the games I play for the mechanics they offer (to do what is available to do in game) and very few if any games make it impossible to play alone. Now I think I've given a few good reasons a "soloer" would want to play an mmo I'd like to ask why does someone who desires either style have the right to question the others desired playstyle?
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
[quote] [i]Originally posted by UsualSuspect[/i] After reading through this thread I've noticed that people of the different sides share very similar traits. Here are a few that are more obvious: SOLOER Soloers are inherently selfish. They want to be able to do everything in an MMO, be able to loot everything, be able to go everywhere and they don't want to share any of that experience with anyone else. Not only that but they want developers to create a game that caters purely to their tastes, removing grouping entirely to make a solo-centric game where everyone does their own thing and everyone has access to everything. In their solo-based games they hate having to group to complete quests, expecting the other group members to be stupid or jerks. What they fail to realise is that the people grouping with them are just like them, solo-based games make for poor communities as everyone wants to work alone and then feels forced to group when a quest makes them do so. Thus not only do they just want to get the job done, they've likely had very little experience in groups and appear as poor players as a result. GROUPER The grouper is at the other end of the spectrum. They like to work with others to acheive things, they redo raids or quests so other members of their group can gather the same equipment. Already having access to everything in game, as they balance both solo and group play, they don't need to make demands and cries for things to be how they want it. The only request they make is that developers create a game with more focus on group play, however they don't want this to be to the detriment of the soloer, they want soloing to remain an option, albeit a smaller one. They love to group in their group-based games as group-based games make for a better community, as everyone knows their role and has had group practice since the very low levels. Also, they're not worried about stupid people and jerks, as the community would have made them more obvious in the earlier levels. Agree or Disagee with this as you choose, but from all the posts so far, this is how I perceive the two sides to be. [/quote]
Above is a poorly formatted quote from UsualSuspect (not his fault, the editor is buggy)
Below is my comment on the above quote
They constantly cry with crabs-in-a-basket like desperate tenacity, for the continued nonexistence of a triple-a mmorpg for soloers. The hypocracy of them wanting devs to cater to them while demonizing soloers for wanting to be catered to (in separate poducts) is obvious to all who read their antagonistic intolerance-laced posts.
This is a contradiction, if soloing is a smaller option, then the detriment is to the soloers. No wonder soloers cry for a solo-centric mmorpg.
There really is no harm in having more than one kind of mmorpg. The kind that attempt and typically fail to cater to groupers and soloers. The kind that cater groupers only. The kind that cater to soloers only. No harm at all would befall the world just all three types of games existed. Sorry about the fomatting, the editor is broken. Corrected some gross spelling errors.
If some of you nerds stepped away from your computers and visited the real world once in a while, what do you think you would see?
Sometimes, people go to the batting cages. Other times they play a baseball game.
Sometimes people just shoot some hoops, while other times they play a game of HORSE, and even play games with OTHER people.
You see, in the REAL WORLD, people choose to solo, and they choose to group. If the real world, with all of it's obvious flaws and weaknesses, can manage to cater to both, why is it so hard for you to imagine a game doing the same thing?
This is a contradiction, if soloing is a smaller option, then the detriment is to the soloers. No wonder soloers cry for a solo-centric mmorpg.
I'm sorry, who is crying for a solo-centric MMO? Nobody. It's all the groupers who whine incessantly that there are no group-centric MMOs. There's no point to crying for solo-centric games, they're everywhere.
This is a contradiction, if soloing is a smaller option, then the detriment is to the soloers. No wonder soloers cry for a solo-centric mmorpg.
I'm sorry, who is crying for a solo-centric MMO? Nobody. It's all the groupers who whine incessantly that there are no group-centric MMOs. There's no point to crying for solo-centric games, they're everywhere.
Methinks you're looking at the wrong side.
Agreed. It always seems that the soloers want MMO's with options for both group and solo play, with equal opportunities, whereas the Groupers want to punish the soloers enough to "force" them into grouping.
This is a contradiction, if soloing is a smaller option, then the detriment is to the soloers. No wonder soloers cry for a solo-centric mmorpg.
I'm sorry, who is crying for a solo-centric MMO? Nobody. It's all the groupers who whine incessantly that there are no group-centric MMOs. There's no point to crying for solo-centric games, they're everywhere.
Methinks you're looking at the wrong side.
Agreed. It always seems that the soloers want MMO's with options for both group and solo play, with equal opportunities, whereas the Groupers want to punish the soloers enough to "force" them into grouping.
Let's make this clear because some consider this solo centric thing different from others. Is it like wow for example where you can solo a big part of the game but for epic fights you have to group? Or do you want to solo everything. Even the bosses and get the same rewards the groupers get.
Agreed. It always seems that the soloers want MMO's with options for both group and solo play, with equal opportunities, whereas the Groupers want to punish the soloers enough to "force" them into grouping.
Yup. The whole reason they stickied this thread was because rabid groupers like Imhotepp posted thread after thread after thread after thread about how much he wanted a group-centric game. To be honest, I don't recall a single thread started by a soloer complaining we needed more solo-centric games. If someone wants to point one out to me, fine.
I just get sick and tired of people who think they get to define what MMOs are and impose those opinions on everyone else. I don't see soloers on this forum doing that, it's 100% on the grouping side. However, they're blinded by their own biases, they project their fanaticism on the other side and are entirely ignorant that they are almost wholly guilty of the very things they accuse others of.
This is a contradiction, if soloing is a smaller option, then the detriment is to the soloers. No wonder soloers cry for a solo-centric mmorpg.
I'm sorry, who is crying for a solo-centric MMO? Nobody. It's all the groupers who whine incessantly that there are no group-centric MMOs. There's no point to crying for solo-centric games, they're everywhere.
Methinks you're looking at the wrong side.
Agreed. It always seems that the soloers want MMO's with options for both group and solo play, with equal opportunities, whereas the Groupers want to punish the soloers enough to "force" them into grouping.
Let's make this clear because some consider this solo centric thing different from others. Is it like wow for example where you can solo a big part of the game but for epic fights you have to group? Or do you want to solo everything. Even the bosses and get the same rewards the groupers get.
I want a WAY to get the same reward a grouper gets. Michael Jordan plays with a team and earns an award... should it be any greater than the award Tiger Woods gets? or Lance Armstrong gets? Should they be punished because they did it alone? Didn't they still work hard? didn't they still excel in their field?
I don't want to be able to solo a dungeon that takes a 25 man raid... But I want a way to fight and toil to earn the same rewards on my own if I decide to play that way.
Btw, I group up all the time, and run my own guild. I'm not anti social. I just HATE raids, they're lame, boring, no fun, require no skill, just mad amounts of time.
Originally posted by Cephus404 Originally posted by z80paranoia This is a contradiction, if soloing is a smaller option, then the detriment is to the soloers. No wonder soloers cry for a solo-centric mmorpg.
I'm sorry, who is crying for a solo-centric MMO? Nobody. It's all the groupers who whine incessantly that there are no group-centric MMOs. There's no point to crying for solo-centric games, they're everywhere. Methinks you're looking at the wrong side.
Solo-centric games? Yes. Solo-centric triple-a mmorpgs? No. Solo-friendly? Yes. Solo-friendly is not the same as solo-centric. As for your "nobody" argument, it only takes one exception to disprove that. I for one am "crying" (methphorically obviously) for a solo-centric mmorpg.
Agreed. It always seems that the soloers want MMO's with options for both group and solo play, with equal opportunities, whereas the Groupers want to punish the soloers enough to "force" them into grouping.
Yup. The whole reason they stickied this thread was because rabid groupers like Imhotepp posted thread after thread after thread after thread about how much he wanted a group-centric game. To be honest, I don't recall a single thread started by a soloer complaining we needed more solo-centric games.
That's because all MMOs for the past 5 years have been solo centric games, with the largest biggest budget in MMO history coming out soon, will be entirely solo centric.
You get tons of threads asking for group focused MMOs because that's the way MMOs were originally meant to be played, and they aren't made that way very often anymore.
Comments
You can solo from beginning to end, but you are missing out on content. And it takes you longer. If extra content and faster levelling isn't enough motivation to group up, what else do you want?
But most people aren't talking about any of those things either, especially not in a group. Very very few groups I've been in have said anything to each other. Kill the mob, move on to the next. Rinse, lather, repeat. Not a word spoken, just run like mad from mob to mob to get as much XP as you can, then everyone goes their separate ways, never to see each other again.
That's likely because you're grouping in a game that is soloable to endgame. You've just run into the people that are exactly like you. They don't want to group but they have to do the quest they're on, so they group up, run through the quest, get it done, move back to their solo content. That's just the sort of society you're going to find in games that are solo affairs. Don't like it? Well, that's the type of thing you're advocating.
Quoted for truth. Just because you like something done a certain way does not mean the majority of the playerbase shares your opinion. You can say that flavored water is designed for women, but it's true that man drink flavored water, too.
By your logic, all fps games should be designed like Wolfenstein 3D and Doom, because that was how the genre started. See how little sense that makes?
You can solo from beginning to end, but you are missing out on content. And it takes you longer. If extra content and faster levelling isn't enough motivation to group up, what else do you want?
Very small amounts of content. Taking LOTRO as an example, there were one, maybe two areas per geographical location that were meant to be grouped through. When you consider how many other quests there are in that game, those four or five quests in group locations really aren't a big loss. Not to mention the fact that I went back recently and all those old group areas are also now soloable.
And why would I want to level faster? If I level faster then I also miss out on content because I level past it. So you can solo and miss content or group and miss content. Balancing the two, which most sane people would do, means you see it all without rushing ahead.
Ever notice that games with a great community seem to usually always have the best gameplay? You can usually tell a lot about a game by it's community. If people are happy they tend to not complain as much in chat.
I still don't understand why people can't see that we can have both group and solo play in the same game? The best analogy I've come up with is climbing a mountain.
Some people are going to want to take the trail. It's a long, easy path with great scenery. You could do it alone if you wanted, but that could be boring so a lot of people will do it with friends.
Some people will find a vertical face and go straight up... Maybe others will go before them, or after them, but when it comes down to it, it's just them and the mountain.
Others will take a rough route, rope themselves together. and if one falls they all fall.
And some may just have a picnic in a meadow at that bottom.
But they all get to climb the mountain, they all get to gain some personel experience, they all get to have a good time enjoying the mountain in the way that suits them best.
These threads are so frustrating. So many people ignore logic when arguing for one point or another. As I see it, the group vs. solo debate is not about "groupers" wishing there was no solo content, or soloers wishing there was no group content. It is more about the balance, and even more about the level of rewards. What I would like to hear is:
1. What do both sides feel is the appropriate balance: 50% group, 25% raid, 25% solo? Something else?
2. Why do soloers feel they need/deserve gear as good as what dungeons and raids give? If your not going to run those dungeons/raids, isn't your need only to have gear sufficient to do the solo content, which in every game I've played requires lesser gear than the dungeons/raids? And if the quality of the gear soloers gets is as good as the dungeon/raids drop, than is that only going to create a situation where everyone gears up solo as it is the path of least resistance, and thus what the soloers want will harm the gameplay of groupers?
What is everyones thoughts on these questions?
You posed good questions in a respectful manner so I will try my best to answer them.
1. I don't know how to answer this question. Personally I feel the balance should be fairly equal although I think in most games, group oriented or not, solo content seems pretty high on the percentage; more like 50% solo, 25% group and 25% raid (including leveling and end game). I would like to see this number balanced out throughout the whole game. Meaning more group (even raid like) content while leveling and more solo options at end game.
2. I feel every play style should have an opportunity to the same gear. End game is a way to progress after you level, group/raid content should not award a special level but rather get you to that level faster. By limiting end game progression to raiding you are not allowing players who prefer small groups or solo to progress. I love raiding but I think it should be threaded in throughout the entire game rather than the ultimate end game goal grind.
In regards to 'raid gear', if you increase mobs/bosses health and damage but also increase the gear required to do the raid encounter you are doing nothing more than raising the numbers for naught. Those high numbers are over inflating the gear desperation and making solo content for raiders trivial. If you need to tier raiding (do lower ones to get to higher ones) then it should be done by an achievement system. Once you complete the first raid, you unlock the next one.
I do not agree with grinding the same raid over and over just to increase playability. I think there are other ways to keep players playing. Instead of trying to force grouping I feel developers should encourage community. When you force players to group they are not making friends but using others to get what they need. I feel this could be a key factor causing the corruption in our current communities.
Grouping should be a rewarding option for people who wish to play with their friends, not something that is forced. You can't make players be friends but you can give them an opportunity to meet, create bonds and feel they belong to the world. Not everyone likes raiding - MMO in my opinion is more about community, not only grouping with other players but all the ways you can interact with them.
If raid gear is made equal to solo gear people would raid less. I think that could be one of the best things to happen to raiding. Raiding was fun back in the day, people did it because they loved it and the success was the ultimate reward.... the gear was nothing more than icing on a cake. Then everyone wanted that gear so the developers took the idea and ran with it.
As soon as raiding became mainstream it went downstream. Instead of tuning raid encounters for raiders, they are making them so that everyone could do them. In my opinion it lost the aspects that made it exciting, it has been diluted to nothing more than a welfare grind. Leave the grouping/raids to those of us that enjoy it and encourage the gear greedy gluttons to do something else.
After reading through this thread I've noticed that people of the different sides share very similar traits. Here are a few that are more obvious:
SOLOER
Soloers are inherently selfish. They want to be able to do everything in an MMO, be able to loot everything, be able to go everywhere and they don't want to share any of that experience with anyone else. Not only that but they want developers to create a game that caters purely to their tastes, removing grouping entirely to make a solo-centric game where everyone does their own thing and everyone has access to everything. In their solo-based games they hate having to group to complete quests, expecting the other group members to be stupid or jerks. What they fail to realise is that the people grouping with them are just like them, solo-based games make for poor communities as everyone wants to work alone and then feels forced to group when a quest makes them do so. Thus not only do they just want to get the job done, they've likely had very little experience in groups and appear as poor players as a result.
GROUPER
The grouper is at the other end of the spectrum. They like to work with others to acheive things, they redo raids or quests so other members of their group can gather the same equipment. Already having access to everything in game, as they balance both solo and group play, they don't need to make demands and cries for things to be how they want it. The only request they make is that developers create a game with more focus on group play, however they don't want this to be to the detriment of the soloer, they want soloing to remain an option, albeit a smaller one. They love to group in their group-based games as group-based games make for a better community, as everyone knows their role and has had group practice since the very low levels. Also, they're not worried about stupid people and jerks, as the community would have made them more obvious in the earlier levels.
Agree or Disagee with this as you choose, but from all the posts so far, this is how I perceive the two sides to be.
Well the biggest reason for that is due mostly to solo play in MMORPGs in my opinion. People don't talk or work together in groups anymore because they don't have to. Which is great for you. Congratulations.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
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1. No such adaptive system exists, and if it did, I'd be very surprised to see it work as you describe. How exactly would a dragon act differently against one player then against many? And there is ony thing you must understand about one person fighting a dangerous dragon and winning. IT'S LAME. It breaks everything that makes a big, dramatic battle cool and fun. It is not satisfying to just say "oh, we'll bring more people and make it cooler". It doesn't make it cooler. The same way that putting bear traps on the floor doesn't make walking across the kitchen more fun. It's only a challenge if you have to overcome it. It's not fun to just throw extra people at an encounter to scale it up. You playing our game the way you want does ruin it for us, because the game mechanics will not be designed around large battles. They'll be designed around single players doing the same things they do when they grind boars.
2. And here is how you having the same rewards as us is a problem. It trivializes our achievements. I get how you don't understand that. Since you are apparently someone who doesn't undertake difficult challenges, I'm sure you don't know the satsifaction that comes from overcoming them. We do want the recognition. We're A type people. We're the leaders of communities, the trailblazers, we really are better. And it's really lame when some jerk who hasn't an iota of what we have ganks us and dances over our corpses. And it's even lamer when games are designed to cater to these jerks. We're sick of it.
MMOs exist because of us. We are the ones who made them popular, and is it because of us that you can play them at all. Our games are epic and cool. Your games are dumb. We don't want to play your dumb games, and we don't want our cool games dumbed down so you can play them.
It's no different from endlessly repetative pop music, nor from shallow pulp fiction novels, nor from mindless specticle movies. The unwashed masses have gotten their claws on MMOs. Congratz on being the lowest common denominator. Your mother must be so proud.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
Ouch, a lot of offensive words for the majority of mmo player base. Why are you so angry anyway.
I have a question though. Why soloers want to play in a mmo. I know why I do. I want to cooperate with or play against other peoples.I solo only when I can't find a group and it bores me out of my mind when I am soloing. That's the reason why I play these games. But why does a soloer want to play a mmo?
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The reality is, everyone plays for their own reasons. Your reasons are no better than anyone else's. Stop pretending that they are. As a soloer, I want to play an MMO because it's a huge, ever-changing world that contains far, far, far more content than any single-player game ever could, it contains lots of different people to interact with and new content is always being added. Give me a single-player game that I can play for years on end without ever seeing all the content, I'll go play that.
Until then, you're welcome to your opinions, but my money is just as good as yours. Stop pretending that your views are any more valid than anyone else's. They're not.
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Imagine if you can for a second I as what you might call a "soloer" don't get bored out of my mind playing by myself as you say you do, but I do bore of sitting and waiting around to start a group,everyone to get on the same part/page, people needing to leave and be replaced etc.. And that's as honest an answer as I can give for the most part I play the games I play for the mechanics they offer (to do what is available to do in game) and very few if any games make it impossible to play alone. Now I think I've given a few good reasons a "soloer" would want to play an mmo I'd like to ask why does someone who desires either style have the right to question the others desired playstyle?
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
[quote] [i]Originally posted by UsualSuspect[/i] After reading through this thread I've noticed that people of the different sides share very similar traits. Here are a few that are more obvious: SOLOER Soloers are inherently selfish. They want to be able to do everything in an MMO, be able to loot everything, be able to go everywhere and they don't want to share any of that experience with anyone else. Not only that but they want developers to create a game that caters purely to their tastes, removing grouping entirely to make a solo-centric game where everyone does their own thing and everyone has access to everything. In their solo-based games they hate having to group to complete quests, expecting the other group members to be stupid or jerks. What they fail to realise is that the people grouping with them are just like them, solo-based games make for poor communities as everyone wants to work alone and then feels forced to group when a quest makes them do so. Thus not only do they just want to get the job done, they've likely had very little experience in groups and appear as poor players as a result. GROUPER The grouper is at the other end of the spectrum. They like to work with others to acheive things, they redo raids or quests so other members of their group can gather the same equipment. Already having access to everything in game, as they balance both solo and group play, they don't need to make demands and cries for things to be how they want it. The only request they make is that developers create a game with more focus on group play, however they don't want this to be to the detriment of the soloer, they want soloing to remain an option, albeit a smaller one. They love to group in their group-based games as group-based games make for a better community, as everyone knows their role and has had group practice since the very low levels. Also, they're not worried about stupid people and jerks, as the community would have made them more obvious in the earlier levels. Agree or Disagee with this as you choose, but from all the posts so far, this is how I perceive the two sides to be. [/quote]
Above is a poorly formatted quote from UsualSuspect (not his fault, the editor is buggy)
Below is my comment on the above quote
They constantly cry with crabs-in-a-basket like desperate tenacity, for the continued nonexistence of a triple-a mmorpg for soloers. The hypocracy of them wanting devs to cater to them while demonizing soloers for wanting to be catered to (in separate poducts) is obvious to all who read their antagonistic intolerance-laced posts.
This is a contradiction, if soloing is a smaller option, then the detriment is to the soloers. No wonder soloers cry for a solo-centric mmorpg.
There really is no harm in having more than one kind of mmorpg. The kind that attempt and typically fail to cater to groupers and soloers. The kind that cater groupers only. The kind that cater to soloers only. No harm at all would befall the world just all three types of games existed. Sorry about the fomatting, the editor is broken. Corrected some gross spelling errors.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
If some of you nerds stepped away from your computers and visited the real world once in a while, what do you think you would see?
Sometimes, people go to the batting cages. Other times they play a baseball game.
Sometimes people just shoot some hoops, while other times they play a game of HORSE, and even play games with OTHER people.
You see, in the REAL WORLD, people choose to solo, and they choose to group. If the real world, with all of it's obvious flaws and weaknesses, can manage to cater to both, why is it so hard for you to imagine a game doing the same thing?
I'm sorry, who is crying for a solo-centric MMO? Nobody. It's all the groupers who whine incessantly that there are no group-centric MMOs. There's no point to crying for solo-centric games, they're everywhere.
Methinks you're looking at the wrong side.
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Agreed. It always seems that the soloers want MMO's with options for both group and solo play, with equal opportunities, whereas the Groupers want to punish the soloers enough to "force" them into grouping.
Let's make this clear because some consider this solo centric thing different from others. Is it like wow for example where you can solo a big part of the game but for epic fights you have to group? Or do you want to solo everything. Even the bosses and get the same rewards the groupers get.
Yup. The whole reason they stickied this thread was because rabid groupers like Imhotepp posted thread after thread after thread after thread about how much he wanted a group-centric game. To be honest, I don't recall a single thread started by a soloer complaining we needed more solo-centric games. If someone wants to point one out to me, fine.
I just get sick and tired of people who think they get to define what MMOs are and impose those opinions on everyone else. I don't see soloers on this forum doing that, it's 100% on the grouping side. However, they're blinded by their own biases, they project their fanaticism on the other side and are entirely ignorant that they are almost wholly guilty of the very things they accuse others of.
Go figure.
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I want a WAY to get the same reward a grouper gets. Michael Jordan plays with a team and earns an award... should it be any greater than the award Tiger Woods gets? or Lance Armstrong gets? Should they be punished because they did it alone? Didn't they still work hard? didn't they still excel in their field?
I don't want to be able to solo a dungeon that takes a 25 man raid... But I want a way to fight and toil to earn the same rewards on my own if I decide to play that way.
Btw, I group up all the time, and run my own guild. I'm not anti social. I just HATE raids, they're lame, boring, no fun, require no skill, just mad amounts of time.
Methinks you're looking at the wrong side.
Solo-centric games? Yes. Solo-centric triple-a mmorpgs? No. Solo-friendly? Yes. Solo-friendly is not the same as solo-centric. As for your "nobody" argument, it only takes one exception to disprove that. I for one am "crying" (methphorically obviously) for a solo-centric mmorpg.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
That's because all MMOs for the past 5 years have been solo centric games, with the largest biggest budget in MMO history coming out soon, will be entirely solo centric.
You get tons of threads asking for group focused MMOs because that's the way MMOs were originally meant to be played, and they aren't made that way very often anymore.