You cannot want to change a multiplayer mmo into a single player mmo, then turn around and say that we are forcing you to play how we want.
These kinds of contradictory statements really make you soloers look bad.
It's different personality types. With all the many years of playing MMO's and reading forums, I've come to realise that people who prefer to solo are generally inherently selfish. It's always about what they want to do, how they should be able to get this and that, how they shouldn't have to group with others to conquer that content, and so on. It's obvious really, a person who wants to do things alone is obviously only caring about themselves as there's nobody else to worry about.
The grouping mentality, however, is the opposite, they want everyone to have a fair shot at items, bring people together for content, work together to conquer content, are willing to sacrifice certain things so others are happy. Unfortunately, that last part has meant the selfish people have taken too much and now we're left with single player online games.
Just a perception from being around the genre for a long time.
Excellent post, I agree with everything you said.
My experience with soloers is pretty much the same. I've been playing online games since 97' and every soloer I have ever encountered is about the same.... rude, impatient and never cares about what other people want or do.
Like you said, selfish.
Maybe we solo gamers are selfish in our leisure pursuits. Frankly I can live with that. But at least we aren't selfishly trying to force social gamers to solo so that we'll have 'friends' to play with. Talk about the ultimate in selfishness!
Most of the time in MMOs I do just want to go my own way and be left alone. My solitary gaming doesn't hurt social gamers in any way shape or form except that I'm one less person for their raid or dungeon or pvp premade. Yet they still whine when a solo player has even close to the same content, the same gear options, and the same rate of progression. It all comes down to the selfish desire of social gamers to have more socialization in their MMOs than they currently have. Sorry, got no pity for you. Guess if that makes me selfish I'll wear the label proudly. This is my game time, not yours. I am not your content.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
You cannot want to change a multiplayer mmo into a single player mmo, then turn around and say that we are forcing you to play how we want.
These kinds of contradictory statements really make you soloers look bad.
It's different personality types. With all the many years of playing MMO's and reading forums, I've come to realise that people who prefer to solo are generally inherently selfish. It's always about what they want to do, how they should be able to get this and that, how they shouldn't have to group with others to conquer that content, and so on. It's obvious really, a person who wants to do things alone is obviously only caring about themselves as there's nobody else to worry about.
The grouping mentality, however, is the opposite, they want everyone to have a fair shot at items, bring people together for content, work together to conquer content, are willing to sacrifice certain things so others are happy. Unfortunately, that last part has meant the selfish people have taken too much and now we're left with single player online games.
Just a perception from being around the genre for a long time.
Excellent post, I agree with everything you said.
My experience with soloers is pretty much the same. I've been playing online games since 97' and every soloer I have ever encountered is about the same.... rude, impatient and never cares about what other people want or do.
Like you said, selfish.
Maybe we solo gamers are selfish in our leisure pursuits. Frankly I can live with that. But at least we aren't selfishly trying to force social gamers to solo so that we'll have 'friends' to play with. Talk about the ultimate in selfishness!
Most of the time in MMOs I do just want to go my own way and be left alone. My solitary gaming doesn't hurt social gamers in any way shape or form except that I'm one less person for their raid or dungeon or pvp premade. Yet they still whine when a solo player has even close to the same content, the same gear options, and the same rate of progression. It all comes down to the selfish desire of social gamers to have more socialization in their MMOs than they currently have. Sorry, got no pity for you. Guess if that makes me selfish I'll wear the label proudly. This is my game time, not yours. I am not your content.
I think there is a misunderstanding here. I dont think there is anyone here who wants to force you to play with them against your will. It is more like we dont want the multiplayer gameplay to suffer because there is too much solo content, for example a mmo that feels like a single player game with a bit of multiplayer tacked on to it. A crappy community with no real guild encouragement because the other players are mostly cosmetic rather than a key-part for the gameplay etc.
Maybe we solo gamers are selfish in our leisure pursuits. Frankly I can live with that. But at least we aren't selfishly trying to force social gamers to solo so that we'll have 'friends' to play with. Talk about the ultimate in selfishness!
Most of the time in MMOs I do just want to go my own way and be left alone. My solitary gaming doesn't hurt social gamers in any way shape or form except that I'm one less person for their raid or dungeon or pvp premade. Yet they still whine when a solo player has even close to the same content, the same gear options, and the same rate of progression. It all comes down to the selfish desire of social gamers to have more socialization in their MMOs than they currently have. Sorry, got no pity for you. Guess if that makes me selfish I'll wear the label proudly. This is my game time, not yours. I am not your content.
The problem with especially the "progression" side of your argument is soloing is inherently easier than grouping. No, we do not want you getting the same "nice things" that we do because as soon as you do/can I now have to solo for it. Humans by nature do not like to play in a way that is suboptimol. Its why we jaywalk instead of go to the light and cross, or why conditioning systems work aswell as they do. Path of least resistance. If I play harder I expect to be rewarded for it fairly. I am rather interested in how Wildstar is going to tackle this issue, as they have claimed that they are catering to both the large group playerbase and the soloers who want to play around others but not with others.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
The first is that the vocal minorities at either extreme of the "group - solo" spectrum need to stop believing that they have a right to dictate the playstyles of other people. I pay my subscription fee, so I make the decisions on how I choose to spend my time in-game.
I'm sure most people feel the same.
The second is that these same people need to accept that their preferences are niche, and as such will not be catered for in the majority of MMOs no matter how bitterly they complain about it on forums, or how vehemently they belittle the "mainstream" preferences and playstyles.
This is how I feel as well.
What it is in must group can benefit me? most of the time, grief, loot steel, lack of reward.
Again, why should I group? to become one of those bad apples?
Originally posted by CorvusCorax Single player gameplay in a mmo makes no sense whatsoever. Why create a massively multiplayer game for people who dislike multiplayer gameplay? there is no logic behind that thought. Making a multiplayer game that focuses on single player gameplay makes no sense at all from a gameplay standpoint. What soloers need is not a mmo that is designed for them, they need to either play the games that are already single player or ask for a new genre that fits only them.
Because there is a difference between people who want to play around a lot of people, as most MMO players do, and those who want to play *WITH* a lot of people, as the majority of MMO players do not. I'd be all for playing *WITH* people if there were a better class of players to play with, but there aren't, so I don't.What others do is none of your damn business.
I dont really care what other people do, I do however care about the game design of games that I intend to play. Multiplayer games should have multiplayer gameplay as its main focus, its simple logic and if you cant see that then I just dont know what to tell you. Some people want to play these games as single player games, but as I said earlier, what they need is not a mmo but either a new genre just for them or just simply play single player games.
Is "grouping" the ONLY way to interact with other players? I cannot understand where people get the "multi-player = Grouping ONLY" mindset. As if one does not group, they are not playing with others. Bullcrap.
I play with others MORE when I am NOT grouped than when I am. When in a group, most of the time I play with ONLY 2-8 other players. When I am NOT in a group, I play with every player in my vicinity. Which way plays with more players?
What is so hard to understand about that? Groups are exclusive, not inclusive.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by UsualSuspect It's different personality types. With all the many years of playing MMO's and reading forums, I've come to realise that people who prefer to solo are generally inherently selfish. It's always about what they want to do, how they should be able to get this and that, how they shouldn't have to group with others to conquer that content, and so on. It's obvious really, a person who wants to do things alone is obviously only caring about themselves as there's nobody else to worry about.The grouping mentality, however, is the opposite, they want everyone to have a fair shot at items, bring people together for content, work together to conquer content, are willing to sacrifice certain things so others are happy. Unfortunately, that last part has meant the selfish people have taken too much and now we're left with single player online games.Just a perception from being around the genre for a long time.
Wow... I am blown away with this leap of logic, or lack thereof.
When I solo, I am "available" to every other player in my vicinity. When in a group, I am available to ONLY those 2-8 other players.
Groups care about the others? What a load of horseshit. Players have changed over the years. How many groups have *you* been in lately where someone, ANYONE says a word to another? Make that a "kind" word. Groups are all about loot and XP these days. How many groups have you been in where a loot roll went smoothly? How many groups have stuck together for more than 1 run? I would bet the numbers, lately, are small for both. I could be mistaken in your case, but for me, less than 2.
Solo = selfish... wow. simply wow...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by CorvusCorax Single player gameplay in a mmo makes no sense whatsoever. Why create a massively multiplayer game for people who dislike multiplayer gameplay? there is no logic behind that thought. Making a multiplayer game that focuses on single player gameplay makes no sense at all from a gameplay standpoint. What soloers need is not a mmo that is designed for them, they need to either play the games that are already single player or ask for a new genre that fits only them.
Because there is a difference between people who want to play around a lot of people, as most MMO players do, and those who want to play *WITH* a lot of people, as the majority of MMO players do not. I'd be all for playing *WITH* people if there were a better class of players to play with, but there aren't, so I don't.
What others do is none of your damn business.
I dont really care what other people do, I do however care about the game design of games that I intend to play. Multiplayer games should have multiplayer gameplay as its main focus, its simple logic and if you cant see that then I just dont know what to tell you. Some people want to play these games as single player games, but as I said earlier, what they need is not a mmo but either a new genre just for them or just simply play single player games.
Is "grouping" the ONLY way to interact with other players? I cannot understand where people get the "multi-player = Grouping ONLY" mindset. As if one does not group, they are not playing with others. Bullcrap.
I play with others MORE when I am NOT grouped than when I am. When in a group, most of the time I play with ONLY 2-8 other players. When I am NOT in a group, I play with every player in my vicinity. Which way plays with more players?
What is so hard to understand about that? Groups are exclusive, not inclusive.
Uhm since when is multiplayer gameplay grouping only? stop being obtuse and think for a while before you post. Multiplayer gameplay is anything that requires other people, such as PvP for example. Soloing however, by its very definition is as far from multiplayer gameplay as you can possibly get without making the game entirely offline, which in turn would not make much difference from a gameplay standpoint .
Originally posted by CorvusCorax Single player gameplay in a mmo makes no sense whatsoever. Why create a massively multiplayer game for people who dislike multiplayer gameplay? there is no logic behind that thought. Making a multiplayer game that focuses on single player gameplay makes no sense at all from a gameplay standpoint. What soloers need is not a mmo that is designed for them, they need to either play the games that are already single player or ask for a new genre that fits only them.
Because there is a difference between people who want to play around a lot of people, as most MMO players do, and those who want to play *WITH* a lot of people, as the majority of MMO players do not. I'd be all for playing *WITH* people if there were a better class of players to play with, but there aren't, so I don't.What others do is none of your damn business.
I dont really care what other people do, I do however care about the game design of games that I intend to play. Multiplayer games should have multiplayer gameplay as its main focus, its simple logic and if you cant see that then I just dont know what to tell you. Some people want to play these games as single player games, but as I said earlier, what they need is not a mmo but either a new genre just for them or just simply play single player games.
Is "grouping" the ONLY way to interact with other players? I cannot understand where people get the "multi-player = Grouping ONLY" mindset. As if one does not group, they are not playing with others. Bullcrap.I play with others MORE when I am NOT grouped than when I am. When in a group, most of the time I play with ONLY 2-8 other players. When I am NOT in a group, I play with every player in my vicinity. Which way plays with more players? What is so hard to understand about that? Groups are exclusive, not inclusive.
Uhm since when is multiplayer gameplay grouping only? stop being obtuse and think for a while before you post. Multiplayer gameplay is anything that requires other people, such as PvP for example. Soloing however, by its very definition is as far from multiplayer gameplay as you can possibly get without making the game entirely offline, which in turn would not make much difference from a gameplay standpoint .
Did you NOT say that NOT grouping was NOT multi-player?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I agree with the "group-oriented" individuals on one thing, that being they should be better rewarded for the time they put into overcoming challenges. Everyone knows the amount of prep work and time that goes into finally killing that last boss, that it should be rewarded appropriately, and that it may feel like a pointless endeavor to some if you could acquire the same reward doing some flimsy 10 minute solo quest.
Okay. That makes sense. As much as I hate to admit this, WoW did do it kind of right- at least at some point. You could solo but if you want the best stuff you have to put in the time to do it. The thing is, the notion that you can solo is what a lot of us are just asking for. I don't want to have to group up with some cloyingly needy and socially deprived manchild every time I want to get something done in the game. That some of you are so bent on and vitriolic about grouping makes me physically shudder.
And so far, with regards to this, "all games are getting solo only, sky's falling, etc", I have yet to see a mmorpg that's void of group content. Even GW2, the poster child for solo levelling, scales the difficulty of DEs based on people in the area. There is really no need to solo if you don't want to. Whether or not you have friends for that is another matter entirely.
[quote]Originally posted by CorvusCorax [quote]Originally posted by AlBQuirky [quote]Originally posted by CorvusCorax [quote]Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by CorvusCorax Single player gameplay in a mmo makes no sense whatsoever. Why create a massively multiplayer game for people who dislike multiplayer gameplay? there is no logic behind that thought. Making a multiplayer game that focuses on single player gameplay makes no sense at all from a gameplay standpoint. What soloers need is not a mmo that is designed for them, they need to either play the games that are already single player or ask for a new genre that fits only them.
[b]Because there is a difference between people who want to play around a lot of people, as most MMO players do, and those who want to play *WITH* a lot of people, as the majority of MMO players do not. I'd be all for playing *WITH* people if there were a better class of players to play with, but there aren't, so I don't.
What others do is none of your damn business.[/quote] I dont really care what other people do, I do however care about the game design of games that I intend to play. Multiplayer games should have multiplayer gameplay as its main focus, its simple logic and if you cant see that then I just dont know what to tell you. Some people want to play these games as single player games, but as I said earlier, what they need is not a mmo but either a new genre just for them or just simply play single player games.[/quote] Is "grouping" the ONLY way to interact with other players? I cannot understand where people get the "multi-player = Grouping ONLY" mindset. As if one does not group, they are not playing with others. Bullcrap.
I play with others MORE when I am NOT grouped than when I am. When in a group, most of the time I play with ONLY 2-8 other players. When I am NOT in a group, I play with every player in my vicinity. Which way plays with more players?
What is so hard to understand about that? Groups are exclusive, not inclusive.[/quote] Uhm since when is multiplayer gameplay grouping only? stop being obtuse and think for a while before you post. Multiplayer gameplay is anything that requires other people, such as PvP for example. Soloing however, by its very definition is as far from multiplayer gameplay as you can possibly get without making the game entirely offline, which in turn would not make much difference from a gameplay standpoint .[/quote] Did you NOT say that NOT grouping was NOT multi-player?
I said soloing has nothing to do with multiplayer gameplay. As in actual gaming and not just setting.
Originally posted by AlBQuirky Did you NOT say that NOT grouping was NOT multi-player?
I said soloing has nothing to do with multiplayer gameplay. As in actual gaming and not just setting.
Right. You said, and I quote AGAIN:
Originally posted by CorvusCorax I said soloing has nothing to do with multiplayer gameplay. As in actual gaming and not just setting.
In other words, soloers are NOT multi-players.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by AlBQuirky Did you NOT say that NOT grouping was NOT multi-player?
I said soloing has nothing to do with multiplayer gameplay. As in actual gaming and not just setting.
Right. You said, and I quote AGAIN:
Originally posted by CorvusCorax I said soloing has nothing to do with multiplayer gameplay. As in actual gaming and not just setting.
In other words, soloers are NOT multi-players.
What exactly is your point here?. Yes soloing has nothing to do with multiplayer gameplay. The very definition of solo should be enough explanation to remove any doubt of the question.
I dont really care what other people do, I do however care about the game design of games that I intend to play. Multiplayer games should have multiplayer gameplay as its main focus, its simple logic and if you cant see that then I just dont know what to tell you. Some people want to play these games as single player games, but as I said earlier, what they need is not a mmo but either a new genre just for them or just simply play single player games.
The market determines how any genre will develop and, whether you like it or not, your side lost. The MMO genre as it existed a decade ago is largely extinct because the majority of people playing didn't like it. Now, you have people standing in the wilderness that everyone who doesn't like old school gameplay should get off their lawn and go play something else, but they're already playing what they want to play, maybe it's the old school people who ought to take a hike. You don't own the genre, the genre has already rejected your style of gameplay. It's like someone who likes crank-starting old Model-T's screaming that anyone who uses one of those newfangled electronic starters should go somewhere else. Your time is gone. Deal with it.
Originally posted by Studdley With today's technology anything should be able to be scaled from solo to group play. I solo the vast majority of my time in these games. I'm not anti-social. I still interact with others I meet. I just prefer to depend on myself instead of others. I should not be penalized for this by being denied access to "the best" rewards. Sure solo should be harder, that is kind of the point, but you should not be forced to group. Having to join a raid should not be the only way to stay competitive. This "extreme" of being able to solo should not step on the toes of the love-to-group people. A solo player should not expect to solo a raid, BUT there should be a way (difficult, but possible) to receive the same level rewards solo. There is room for both in a well designed game.
The problem is, these people don't want scalable content, they want content that is so difficult that nobody has a choice but to play the way they want everyone to play. They don't want choices, they want to force or bribe everyone to act the way they act so they feel good about enjoying a non-popular method of gameplay.
Id like to see an MMO released with group only content, this way there's always enough people looking for a group to not spent an hour looking for a group. To those who say it never works look back to EQ1. Its still alive an well today and I'm sure its because of the social interaction because of it focusing more on group content. There was enough downtime to actually chat with people in your group, also you didn't have to spam buttons non stop in combat giving you time to chat and kill stuff. The whole solo quest grind just gets you to endgame faster and doesn't allow you to really do anything but focus on getting to endgame. The fun in actually leveling for months to hit endgame then enjoying the raiding content with the people you have leveled with over the months i believe is the key we are missing anymore. It really gave you a solid role and understanding on how to play your class better. I'm not saying MMO's that have soloing are trash, i just don't find myself sticking around a week after i hit max level, they get boring to quickly and i jump ship and look for another MMO... Why not a forced group MMO that has some type of innovative group finder? Honestly id rather play with people whenever im in an MMO world and not be stuck soloing because everyone is on there own little Quest path all the time... It really is that hard to get peoples attention and get them to group up when there focused on questing non stop....
Originally posted by CorvusCorax What exactly is your point here?. Yes soloing has nothing to do with multiplayer gameplay. The very definition of solo should be enough explanation to remove any doubt of the question.
Your "opinion" that soloers are not MMO-players, or should NOT be in the MMO space.
When I solo, I "find adventure", be it on my own or helping others. When I group, there is ONE target in view, the group's objective whatever that may be. No little side adventures or surprise encounter off a beaten path.
Nowhere in the acronym MMO (or MMORPG) is the word "group" stated or implied. It is many players playing the same game. And I refute that opinion.
I play with other players without being in a group. Can you? Am I "selfish" because of this? I guess, because I am not playing to *your* satisfaction.
Now, if perchance, you are talking about ONLY end of game raids/boss fights, I have no qualms with your opinion. It is mine, too, the way games are set up these days with only ONE way to defeat the raid/boss - kill it.
Why can't a thief sneak and pickpocket a boss for its loot? Why can't a bard sweet talk a boss out its loot? Why can't a mage put a boss to sleep and steal its loot?
Because then no one would play a fighter. Their only recourse is to fight. And the other 3 ways take combat out of the overly combat oriented games we have now.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Id like to see an MMO released with group only content, this way there's always enough people looking for a group to not spent an hour looking for a group. To those who say it never works look back to EQ1. Its still alive an well today and I'm sure its because of the social interaction because of it focusing more on group content. There was enough downtime to actually chat with people in your group, also you didn't have to spam buttons non stop in combat giving you time to chat and kill stuff. The whole solo quest grind just gets you to endgame faster and doesn't allow you to really do anything but focus on getting to endgame. The fun in actually leveling for months to hit endgame then enjoying the raiding content with the people you have leveled with over the months i believe is the key we are missing anymore. It really gave you a solid role and understanding on how to play your class better. I'm not saying MMO's that have soloing are trash, i just don't find myself sticking around a week after i hit max level, they get boring to quickly and i jump ship and look for another MMO... Why not a forced group MMO that has some type of innovative group finder? Honestly id rather play with people whenever im in an MMO world and not be stuck soloing because everyone is on there own little Quest path all the time... It really is that hard to get peoples attention and get them to group up when there focused on questing non stop....
And it would fail. Group-only games are not successful, that's why they don't exist.
Originally posted by slikeytre Id like to see an MMO released with group only content, this way there's always enough people looking for a group to not spent an hour looking for a group. To those who say it never works look back to EQ1. Its still alive an well today and I'm sure its because of the social interaction because of it focusing more on group content. There was enough downtime to actually chat with people in your group, also you didn't have to spam buttons non stop in combat giving you time to chat and kill stuff. The whole solo quest grind just gets you to endgame faster and doesn't allow you to really do anything but focus on getting to endgame. The fun in actually leveling for months to hit endgame then enjoying the raiding content with the people you have leveled with over the months i believe is the key we are missing anymore. It really gave you a solid role and understanding on how to play your class better. I'm not saying MMO's that have soloing are trash, i just don't find myself sticking around a week after i hit max level, they get boring to quickly and i jump ship and look for another MMO... Why not a forced group MMO that has some type of innovative group finder? Honestly id rather play with people whenever im in an MMO world and not be stuck soloing because everyone is on there own little Quest path all the time... It really is that hard to get peoples attention and get them to group up when there focused on questing non stop....
I would like to see this, too, believe it or not. I think ALL players should have games that they enjoy playing.
[EDIT] Heck, even games having a "group centric" server would be cool! All it would take would be more MOBs in place.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Your "opinion" that soloers are not MMO-players, or should NOT be in the MMO space.
When I solo, I "find adventure", be it on my own or helping others. When I group, there is ONE target in view, the group's objective whatever that may be. No little side adventures or surprise encounter off a beaten path.
Nowhere in the acronym MMO (or MMORPG) is the word "group" stated or implied. It is many players playing the same game. And I refute that opinion.
I play with other players without being in a group. Can you? Am I "selfish" because of this? I guess, because I am not playing to *your* satisfaction.
Now, if perchance, you are talking about ONLY end of game raids/boss fights, I have no qualms with your opinion. It is mine, too, the way games are set up these days with only ONE way to defeat the raid/boss - kill it.
Why can't a thief sneak and pickpocket a boss for its loot? Why can't a bard sweet talk a boss out its loot? Why can't a mage put a boss to sleep and steal its loot?
Because then no one would play a fighter. Their only recourse is to fight. And the other 3 ways take combat out of the overly combat oriented games we have now.
The problem being of course just being with people is not multiplayer either. I can walk down the street with a dozen other people but I have no connection to them. They may aswell be npc's. If you have no connection there is no point to playing with humans instead of robots.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Originally posted by AlBQuirky Your "opinion" that soloers are not MMO-players, or should NOT be in the MMO space.When I solo, I "find adventure", be it on my own or helping others. When I group, there is ONE target in view, the group's objective whatever that may be. No little side adventures or surprise encounter off a beaten path.Nowhere in the acronym MMO (or MMORPG) is the word "group" stated or implied. It is many players playing the same game. And I refute that opinion.I play with other players without being in a group. Can you? Am I "selfish" because of this? I guess, because I am not playing to *your* satisfaction.Now, if perchance, you are talking about ONLY end of game raids/boss fights, I have no qualms with your opinion. It is mine, too, the way games are set up these days with only ONE way to defeat the raid/boss - kill it.Why can't a thief sneak and pickpocket a boss for its loot? Why can't a bard sweet talk a boss out its loot? Why can't a mage put a boss to sleep and steal its loot?Because then no one would play a fighter. Their only recourse is to fight. And the other 3 ways take combat out of the overly combat oriented games we have now.
The problem being of course just being with people is not multiplayer either. I can walk down the street with a dozen other people but I have no connection to them. They may aswell be npc's. If you have no connection there is no point to playing with humans instead of robots.
There is no connection, at any given time, but there can be a connection if one decides to make it so. One does not have to walk down the street in a gang (or group) in order to have "connections", do they?
Does that make sense? Real life to game life does not always "port" well
The point is, one does not have to be in a group in order to "make connections" in a multi-player game. Sometimes, these connections may even lead to grouping
As I said before, grouping is an exclusive activity, not an inclusive one.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
There is no connection, at any given time, but there can be a connection if one decides to make it so. One does not have to walk down the street in a gang (or group) in order to have "connections", do they?
Does that make sense? Real life to game life does not always "port" well
The point is, one does not have to be in a group in order to "make connections" in a multi-player game. Sometimes, these connections may even lead to grouping
As I said before, grouping is an exclusive activity, not an inclusive one.
Exclusivity is how connections are made. You do it every time you invite someone into your circle of friends. You do it every time you join a specific faction. Catagories are how humans determine action in social situations. Do you consider going grocery shopping a social activity? You are afterall there with a slew of other people.
Do not mistake me, I do believe that there is enough of a segment of people who want to play around others but not with others to make it worthwhile to cater to them in one form or another. I just do not believe that is actual social activity. Much like the people that text each other in the same room and the like.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Originally posted by AlBQuirky There is no connection, at any given time, but there can be a connection if one decides to make it so. One does not have to walk down the street in a gang (or group) in order to have "connections", do they?Does that make sense? Real life to game life does not always "port" well :)The point is, one does not have to be in a group in order to "make connections" in a multi-player game. Sometimes, these connections may even lead to grouping :)As I said before, grouping is an exclusive activity, not an inclusive one.
Exclusivity is how connections are made. You do it every time you invite someone into your circle of friends. You do it every time you join a specific faction. Catagories are how humans determine action in social situations. Do you consider going grocery shopping a social activity? You are afterall there with a slew of other people.Do not mistake me, I do believe that there is enough of a segment of people who want to play around others but not with others to make it worthwhile to cater to them in one form or another. I just do not believe that is actual social activity. Much like the people that text each other in the same room and the like.
This is where we differ in opinions
I do not feel that I have to the best of friends with someone else in order to make a connection with them. If I wear my Green Bay Packers cap shopping, someone will inevitably make a comment on it (I live in a vastly Minnesota Viking Fan area). I now have a connection with them: American Football. Is it a deep connection? Gods, no!
If you lock 5 people into a room for 5 hours, will they make a connection? I certainly hope so, but it will rarely be a good one. That is what "forced grouping" is like for me. None of us may even want to be there, but here we are.
In MMOs, PUGs many times lately have no interaction whatsoever. Talk about being in a room with someone... I don't think the games are directly the cause of this, though. In a way, they have met players' attitudes for end game race and kick those who may slow that progress down. But in so doing, the genre has grown exponentially, telling me players are fine with that.
With all that being said, I want to be in a group because I have the choice, not because I have to in order to play the game. My best groups have been created by a comment said in local chat that caught my attention, or my comment caught someone else's. When I read in map chat a lot of acronyms, I steer far away from that wannabe group.
I guess to oversimplify, one can look no further than their own nose (being in a group) at the world around them, or they can have a view distance a bit further out and see all that there is around them (ALL the other players).
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
The problem being of course just being with people is not multiplayer either. I can walk down the street with a dozen other people but I have no connection to them. They may aswell be npc's. If you have no connection there is no point to playing with humans instead of robots.
You have the *OPTION* to do things with them if you want. You can trade with them, you can talk to them, you can join guilds with them, you can roleplay with them, you can even group with them if you want to. It's all about having choices, not about being forced into things you don't want to do.
The problem with the newer games is they actually punish you for grouping outside instances, raids, pvp etc. People find it vastly easier and quicker to solo quest their way to level cap. What should happen is a benefit to grouping. People should get XP bonuses for grouping with others instead of having a negative impact for grouping.
Mob XP splitting hinders grouping in a major way
Gather quests that don't share
Loot quests that don't share
And more. If developers would remove all those negative aspects and reward players for grouping you would see it more in MMO's today. But so long as its punished it will never catch on outside of people that are already acquainted. Its a shame because I really enjoyed my random leveling groups in older games like FFXI.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
The problem with the newer games is they actually punish you for grouping outside instances, raids, pvp etc. People find it vastly easier and quicker to solo quest their way to level cap. What should happen is a benefit to grouping. People should get XP bonuses for grouping with others instead of having a negative impact for grouping.
Mob XP splitting hinders grouping in a major way
Gather quests that don't share
Loot quests that don't share
And more. If developers would remove all those negative aspects and reward players for grouping you would see it more in MMO's today. But so long as its punished it will never catch on outside of people that are already acquainted. Its a shame because I really enjoyed my random leveling groups in older games like FFXI.
People *DO* get an XP bonus for grouping because they can take on harder content faster and thus, get more XP and higher-level drops from more difficult mobs. If you're taking on the same content as a group that you could beat on your own, you're doing it wrong.
Comments
Maybe we solo gamers are selfish in our leisure pursuits. Frankly I can live with that. But at least we aren't selfishly trying to force social gamers to solo so that we'll have 'friends' to play with. Talk about the ultimate in selfishness!
Most of the time in MMOs I do just want to go my own way and be left alone. My solitary gaming doesn't hurt social gamers in any way shape or form except that I'm one less person for their raid or dungeon or pvp premade. Yet they still whine when a solo player has even close to the same content, the same gear options, and the same rate of progression. It all comes down to the selfish desire of social gamers to have more socialization in their MMOs than they currently have. Sorry, got no pity for you. Guess if that makes me selfish I'll wear the label proudly. This is my game time, not yours. I am not your content.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
I think there is a misunderstanding here. I dont think there is anyone here who wants to force you to play with them against your will. It is more like we dont want the multiplayer gameplay to suffer because there is too much solo content, for example a mmo that feels like a single player game with a bit of multiplayer tacked on to it. A crappy community with no real guild encouragement because the other players are mostly cosmetic rather than a key-part for the gameplay etc.
The problem with especially the "progression" side of your argument is soloing is inherently easier than grouping. No, we do not want you getting the same "nice things" that we do because as soon as you do/can I now have to solo for it. Humans by nature do not like to play in a way that is suboptimol. Its why we jaywalk instead of go to the light and cross, or why conditioning systems work aswell as they do. Path of least resistance. If I play harder I expect to be rewarded for it fairly. I am rather interested in how Wildstar is going to tackle this issue, as they have claimed that they are catering to both the large group playerbase and the soloers who want to play around others but not with others.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
This is how I feel as well.
What it is in must group can benefit me? most of the time, grief, loot steel, lack of reward.
Again, why should I group? to become one of those bad apples?
No thank you.
I want to play how I want to play, that is it.
I play with others MORE when I am NOT grouped than when I am. When in a group, most of the time I play with ONLY 2-8 other players. When I am NOT in a group, I play with every player in my vicinity. Which way plays with more players?
What is so hard to understand about that? Groups are exclusive, not inclusive.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
When I solo, I am "available" to every other player in my vicinity. When in a group, I am available to ONLY those 2-8 other players.
Groups care about the others? What a load of horseshit. Players have changed over the years. How many groups have *you* been in lately where someone, ANYONE says a word to another? Make that a "kind" word. Groups are all about loot and XP these days. How many groups have you been in where a loot roll went smoothly? How many groups have stuck together for more than 1 run? I would bet the numbers, lately, are small for both. I could be mistaken in your case, but for me, less than 2.
Solo = selfish... wow. simply wow...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Uhm since when is multiplayer gameplay grouping only? stop being obtuse and think for a while before you post. Multiplayer gameplay is anything that requires other people, such as PvP for example. Soloing however, by its very definition is as far from multiplayer gameplay as you can possibly get without making the game entirely offline, which in turn would not make much difference from a gameplay standpoint .
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I agree with the "group-oriented" individuals on one thing, that being they should be better rewarded for the time they put into overcoming challenges. Everyone knows the amount of prep work and time that goes into finally killing that last boss, that it should be rewarded appropriately, and that it may feel like a pointless endeavor to some if you could acquire the same reward doing some flimsy 10 minute solo quest.
Okay. That makes sense. As much as I hate to admit this, WoW did do it kind of right- at least at some point. You could solo but if you want the best stuff you have to put in the time to do it. The thing is, the notion that you can solo is what a lot of us are just asking for. I don't want to have to group up with some cloyingly needy and socially deprived manchild every time I want to get something done in the game. That some of you are so bent on and vitriolic about grouping makes me physically shudder.
And so far, with regards to this, "all games are getting solo only, sky's falling, etc", I have yet to see a mmorpg that's void of group content. Even GW2, the poster child for solo levelling, scales the difficulty of DEs based on people in the area. There is really no need to solo if you don't want to. Whether or not you have friends for that is another matter entirely.
I said soloing has nothing to do with multiplayer gameplay. As in actual gaming and not just setting.
In other words, soloers are NOT multi-players.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
What exactly is your point here?. Yes soloing has nothing to do with multiplayer gameplay. The very definition of solo should be enough explanation to remove any doubt of the question.
The market determines how any genre will develop and, whether you like it or not, your side lost. The MMO genre as it existed a decade ago is largely extinct because the majority of people playing didn't like it. Now, you have people standing in the wilderness that everyone who doesn't like old school gameplay should get off their lawn and go play something else, but they're already playing what they want to play, maybe it's the old school people who ought to take a hike. You don't own the genre, the genre has already rejected your style of gameplay. It's like someone who likes crank-starting old Model-T's screaming that anyone who uses one of those newfangled electronic starters should go somewhere else. Your time is gone. Deal with it.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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The problem is, these people don't want scalable content, they want content that is so difficult that nobody has a choice but to play the way they want everyone to play. They don't want choices, they want to force or bribe everyone to act the way they act so they feel good about enjoying a non-popular method of gameplay.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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Id like to see an MMO released with group only content, this way there's always enough people looking for a group to not spent an hour looking for a group. To those who say it never works look back to EQ1. Its still alive an well today and I'm sure its because of the social interaction because of it focusing more on group content. There was enough downtime to actually chat with people in your group, also you didn't have to spam buttons non stop in combat giving you time to chat and kill stuff. The whole solo quest grind just gets you to endgame faster and doesn't allow you to really do anything but focus on getting to endgame. The fun in actually leveling for months to hit endgame then enjoying the raiding content with the people you have leveled with over the months i believe is the key we are missing anymore. It really gave you a solid role and understanding on how to play your class better. I'm not saying MMO's that have soloing are trash, i just don't find myself sticking around a week after i hit max level, they get boring to quickly and i jump ship and look for another MMO... Why not a forced group MMO that has some type of innovative group finder? Honestly id rather play with people whenever im in an MMO world and not be stuck soloing because everyone is on there own little Quest path all the time... It really is that hard to get peoples attention and get them to group up when there focused on questing non stop....
When I solo, I "find adventure", be it on my own or helping others. When I group, there is ONE target in view, the group's objective whatever that may be. No little side adventures or surprise encounter off a beaten path.
Nowhere in the acronym MMO (or MMORPG) is the word "group" stated or implied. It is many players playing the same game. And I refute that opinion.
I play with other players without being in a group. Can you? Am I "selfish" because of this? I guess, because I am not playing to *your* satisfaction.
Now, if perchance, you are talking about ONLY end of game raids/boss fights, I have no qualms with your opinion. It is mine, too, the way games are set up these days with only ONE way to defeat the raid/boss - kill it.
Why can't a thief sneak and pickpocket a boss for its loot?
Why can't a bard sweet talk a boss out its loot?
Why can't a mage put a boss to sleep and steal its loot?
Because then no one would play a fighter. Their only recourse is to fight. And the other 3 ways take combat out of the overly combat oriented games we have now.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
And it would fail. Group-only games are not successful, that's why they don't exist.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
[EDIT]
Heck, even games having a "group centric" server would be cool! All it would take would be more MOBs in place.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The problem being of course just being with people is not multiplayer either. I can walk down the street with a dozen other people but I have no connection to them. They may aswell be npc's. If you have no connection there is no point to playing with humans instead of robots.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Does that make sense? Real life to game life does not always "port" well
The point is, one does not have to be in a group in order to "make connections" in a multi-player game. Sometimes, these connections may even lead to grouping
As I said before, grouping is an exclusive activity, not an inclusive one.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Exclusivity is how connections are made. You do it every time you invite someone into your circle of friends. You do it every time you join a specific faction. Catagories are how humans determine action in social situations. Do you consider going grocery shopping a social activity? You are afterall there with a slew of other people.
Do not mistake me, I do believe that there is enough of a segment of people who want to play around others but not with others to make it worthwhile to cater to them in one form or another. I just do not believe that is actual social activity. Much like the people that text each other in the same room and the like.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
I do not feel that I have to the best of friends with someone else in order to make a connection with them. If I wear my Green Bay Packers cap shopping, someone will inevitably make a comment on it (I live in a vastly Minnesota Viking Fan area). I now have a connection with them: American Football. Is it a deep connection? Gods, no!
If you lock 5 people into a room for 5 hours, will they make a connection? I certainly hope so, but it will rarely be a good one. That is what "forced grouping" is like for me. None of us may even want to be there, but here we are.
In MMOs, PUGs many times lately have no interaction whatsoever. Talk about being in a room with someone... I don't think the games are directly the cause of this, though. In a way, they have met players' attitudes for end game race and kick those who may slow that progress down. But in so doing, the genre has grown exponentially, telling me players are fine with that.
With all that being said, I want to be in a group because I have the choice, not because I have to in order to play the game. My best groups have been created by a comment said in local chat that caught my attention, or my comment caught someone else's. When I read in map chat a lot of acronyms, I steer far away from that wannabe group.
I guess to oversimplify, one can look no further than their own nose (being in a group) at the world around them, or they can have a view distance a bit further out and see all that there is around them (ALL the other players).
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
You have the *OPTION* to do things with them if you want. You can trade with them, you can talk to them, you can join guilds with them, you can roleplay with them, you can even group with them if you want to. It's all about having choices, not about being forced into things you don't want to do.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
The problem with the newer games is they actually punish you for grouping outside instances, raids, pvp etc. People find it vastly easier and quicker to solo quest their way to level cap. What should happen is a benefit to grouping. People should get XP bonuses for grouping with others instead of having a negative impact for grouping.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
People *DO* get an XP bonus for grouping because they can take on harder content faster and thus, get more XP and higher-level drops from more difficult mobs. If you're taking on the same content as a group that you could beat on your own, you're doing it wrong.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None