i'll say what i've said before, I personally think WoW did it best. Theres group play and solo play, but you won't get nearly as good quality gear just by soloing. I would never play a game that forced me to group 24/7, on the other hand i'd never play an mmo that was just solo play. Of course i'm a casual player (i guess? 2 hours a day) sometimes I don't have an hour to wait to join a group i'll probably leave 40 mins into it.
WoW did it in the worst possible way.
i love when people make statements with no examples of why they think that way.
Ok, I'll give you one:
-I am a Star Wars fan, I played SWG from beta till that one faithful day in 2005.
I had different characters, take for example my jedi or bounty hunter, I liked to hunt wild animals in the wild far away from cities for money, for resources etc etc etc. (money + roleplay + having fun being in a sw world). That said, I discovered a cave system, I went inside to explore and found wild animals, had a LOT of fun killing them (although difficult) and looting.
Same with pvp, I had my seeker droids, I buffed, I found a jedi (npc or player) target, and went out there searching for it, players could take hours to actually initiate combat with them. All that while being in a guild, and having fun doing fights and other rp events with them from time to time.
I loved that, transfer that to today's MMOs and what ppl think they should be like:
Log in, go out in the wild, "hey a cave, let's go explore it...BLAM dead. wtf....ok, need group, and there come Jack the tank, Jill the healer, and Corky the dps...."let's kill the monsters inside....DONE! let's fight over the loot!.....ok done, what now? hmm, let's travel a bit further into the wild, Jack has to go, Jill has her BF coming over.....bye group......hey abandoned base, let's go inside, BLAM! Elite npc...I'm dead. ok, let's spam the chat again for a new group...noone responding? ok I'll just sit in a safe city and wait hours on end and do nothing because I can't do jack sh*t in this game without the healer-tank-dps help"
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Some soloers want to be able to do anything and get everything entirely solo in a MMO and thats very different from just being solo friendly. Those extreme soloers are not the majority.
I'm sure they make up a much larger percentage of the total population than the forced groupers who want everyone to be required to group to accomplish anything.
In a multiplayer game, yes I think its ok to expect that....lol
And please don't try and convince me that multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, because that's how the "Holy Trinity" was developed. It has been around since the first MMOs.
That pretty much proves multiplayer was intended for group content.
Yeah, because when we joined a group in Ultima Online.... oh wait...
I mean, Yeah, when we would wait on the tank in Asheron's Call... oh wait...
that was in Furcadia... err... no, wasn't there...
It must have been Planet Entropia... or not.
M59? Neocron? Anarchy Online? The Realm? Nope.
ex-EQers have a very interesting view of history.
Exactly as I said in my previous comment, nothing but shallow and selfish responses.
And again the rest of my comment is ignored. The holy trinity is ignored, all the grouping mechanics that come with multiplayer mmos, ignored.
Some soloers want to be able to do anything and get everything entirely solo in a MMO and thats very different from just being solo friendly. Those extreme soloers are not the majority.
I'm sure they make up a much larger percentage of the total population than the forced groupers who want everyone to be required to group to accomplish anything.
In a multiplayer game, yes I think its ok to expect that....lol
And please don't try and convince me that multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, because that's how the "Holy Trinity" was developed. It has been around since the first MMOs.
That pretty much proves multiplayer was intended for group content.
Yeah, because when we joined a group in Ultima Online.... oh wait...
I mean, Yeah, when we would wait on the tank in Asheron's Call... oh wait...
that was in Furcadia... err... no, wasn't there...
It must have been Planet Entropia... or not.
M59? Neocron? Anarchy Online? The Realm? Nope.
ex-EQers have a very interesting view of history.
Exactly as I said in my previous comment, nothing but shallow and selfish responses.
And again the rest of my comment is ignored. The holy trinity is ignored, all the grouping mechanics that come with multiplayer mmos, ignored.
Just one childish response after another
I'm not sure which is more amusing, that you confront the truth with insults or the level of denial that prompts you to do so. Either way, you seem rather set in your views so I won't bother you anymore with truth, history or reality. Those don't seem to sit well with you.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
i'll say what i've said before, I personally think WoW did it best. Theres group play and solo play, but you won't get nearly as good quality gear just by soloing. I would never play a game that forced me to group 24/7, on the other hand i'd never play an mmo that was just solo play. Of course i'm a casual player (i guess? 2 hours a day) sometimes I don't have an hour to wait to join a group i'll probably leave 40 mins into it.
WoW did it in the worst possible way.
i love when people make statements with no examples of why they think that way.
Ok, I'll give you one:
-I am a Star Wars fan, I played SWG from beta till that one faithful day in 2005.
I had different characters, take for example my jedi or bounty hunter, I liked to hunt wild animals in the wild far away from cities for money, for resources etc etc etc. (money + roleplay + having fun being in a sw world). That said, I discovered a cave system, I went inside to explore and found wild animals, had a LOT of fun killing them (although difficult) and looting.
Same with pvp, I had my seeker droids, I buffed, I found a jedi (npc or player) target, and went out there searching for it, players could take hours to actually initiate combat with them. All that while being in a guild, and having fun doing fights and other rp events with them from time to time.
I loved that, transfer that to today's MMOs and what ppl think they should be like:
Log in, go out in the wild, "hey a cave, let's go explore it...BLAM dead. wtf....ok, need group, and there come Jack the tank, Jill the healer, and Corky the dps...."let's kill the monsters inside....DONE! let's fight over the loot!.....ok done, what now? hmm, let's travel a bit further into the wild, Jack has to go, Jill has her BF coming over.....bye group......hey abandoned base, let's go inside, BLAM! Elite npc...I'm dead. ok, let's spam the chat again for a new group...noone responding? ok I'll just sit in a safe city and wait hours on end and do nothing"
Sounds like you've had a horrible experience, but you cant possibly think that happens to everyone. I myself have NEVER had an experience like you described.
But your leaving out one important aspect. Doing it your way, any group that happens apon that cave will not enjoy the content, because its all soloable.
It will be way too easy. Now your forcing that group to disban, see how that works.
Some soloers want to be able to do anything and get everything entirely solo in a MMO and thats very different from just being solo friendly. Those extreme soloers are not the majority.
I'm sure they make up a much larger percentage of the total population than the forced groupers who want everyone to be required to group to accomplish anything.
In a multiplayer game, yes I think its ok to expect that....lol
And please don't try and convince me that multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, because that's how the "Holy Trinity" was developed. It has been around since the first MMOs.
That pretty much proves multiplayer was intended for group content.
Yeah, because when we joined a group in Ultima Online.... oh wait...
I mean, Yeah, when we would wait on the tank in Asheron's Call... oh wait...
that was in Furcadia... err... no, wasn't there...
It must have been Planet Entropia... or not.
M59? Neocron? Anarchy Online? The Realm? Nope.
ex-EQers have a very interesting view of history.
Exactly as I said in my previous comment, nothing but shallow and selfish responses.
And again the rest of my comment is ignored. The holy trinity is ignored, all the grouping mechanics that come with multiplayer mmos, ignored.
Just one childish response after another
I'm not sure which is more amusing, that you confront the truth with insults or the level of denial that prompts you to do so. Either way, you seem rather set in your views so I won't bother you anymore with truth, history or reality. Those don't seem to sit well with you.
That wasn't an insult...lol
Besides, all you did was deny, now your telling me that I cant deny. How does that work exactly?
Some soloers want to be able to do anything and get everything entirely solo in a MMO and thats very different from just being solo friendly. Those extreme soloers are not the majority.
I'm sure they make up a much larger percentage of the total population than the forced groupers who want everyone to be required to group to accomplish anything.
In a multiplayer game, yes I think its ok to expect that....lol
And please don't try and convince me that multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, because that's how the "Holy Trinity" was developed. It has been around since the first MMOs.
That pretty much proves multiplayer was intended for group content.
It doesn't. I've played multiplayer games where I haven't been grouped with people.
Childish response, because you ignored the rest of my comment.
Failed, please try again.
Do you honestly believe you can't have a multiplayer game/experience without grouping? That's what your post is coming across as. Bringing up the holy trinity doesn't back up your claim.
Sounds like you've had a horrible experience, but you cant possibly think that happens to everyone. I myself have NEVER had an experience like you described.
But your leaving out one important aspect. Doing it your way, any group that happens apon that cave will not enjoy the content, because its all soloable.
It will be way too easy. Now your forcing that group to disban, see how that works.
No, solo content was difficult enough at times. I wanted to (role)play some bounty hunter or a random hunter in the game.
And didn't want to have a army behind me to kill a certain mob.
There were ofc those in the game (Krayt dragons), but my experience in all other mmos that came after it (a LOT), you need a group to even take a piss.
"I am a dangerous warrior, let's fight! oh no, I need a healer, tank, dps, preferrably 10 of each and maybe I stand a chance".
Grouping: ok, but it should not be a requirement from start to finish.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Some soloers want to be able to do anything and get everything entirely solo in a MMO and thats very different from just being solo friendly. Those extreme soloers are not the majority.
I'm sure they make up a much larger percentage of the total population than the forced groupers who want everyone to be required to group to accomplish anything.
In a multiplayer game, yes I think its ok to expect that....lol
And please don't try and convince me that multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, because that's how the "Holy Trinity" was developed. It has been around since the first MMOs.
That pretty much proves multiplayer was intended for group content.
It doesn't. I've played multiplayer games where I haven't been grouped with people.
Childish response, because you ignored the rest of my comment.
Failed, please try again.
Do you honestly believe you can't have a multiplayer game/experience without grouping? That's what your post is coming across as. Brining up the holy trinity doesn't back up your claim.
You prove my point yet again with the ad hominem attacks.
Obviously you could play SOME of the game. You cannot play it all because of the group mechanics in game, or at least you shouldn't, because then the groups lose that content. This is what you soloers refuse to admit.
Yes, the holy trinity is exactly the proof I need to back up my claim. If multiplayers mmos were not designed for grouping, the holy trinity would not exist.
Sounds like you've had a horrible experience, but you cant possibly think that happens to everyone. I myself have NEVER had an experience like you described.
But your leaving out one important aspect. Doing it your way, any group that happens apon that cave will not enjoy the content, because its all soloable.
It will be way too easy. Now your forcing that group to disban, see how that works.
No, solo content was difficult enough at times. I wanted to (role)play some bounty hunter or a random hunter in the game.
And didn't want to have a army behind me to kill a certain mob.
There were ofc those in the game (Krayt dragons), but my experience in all other mmos that came after it (a LOT), you need a group to even take a piss.
"I am a dangerous warrior, let's fight! oh no, I need a healer, tank, dps, preferrably 10 of each and maybe I stand a chance".
Grouping: ok, but it should not be a requirement from start to finish.
Who cares how difficult it was for you to solo that content, its now lost to any group because its too easy.
In a multiplayer MMO yes grouping should be from start to finish. Otherwise its a different game.
Some soloers want to be able to do anything and get everything entirely solo in a MMO and thats very different from just being solo friendly. Those extreme soloers are not the majority.
I'm sure they make up a much larger percentage of the total population than the forced groupers who want everyone to be required to group to accomplish anything.
In a multiplayer game, yes I think its ok to expect that....lol
And please don't try and convince me that multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, because that's how the "Holy Trinity" was developed. It has been around since the first MMOs.
That pretty much proves multiplayer was intended for group content.
It doesn't. I've played multiplayer games where I haven't been grouped with people.
Childish response, because you ignored the rest of my comment.
Failed, please try again.
Do you honestly believe you can't have a multiplayer game/experience without grouping? That's what your post is coming across as. Brining up the holy trinity doesn't back up your claim.
You prove my point yet again with the ad hominem attacks.
Obviously you could play SOME of the game. You cannot play it all because of the group mechanics in game, or at least you shouldn't, because then the groups lose that content. This is what you soloers refuse to admit.
Yes, the holy trinity is exactly the proof I need to back up my claim. If multiplayers mmos were not designed for grouping, the holy trinity would not exist.
You have not proved that in order to have a multiplayer experience you NEED group content. Keep trying though.
Some soloers want to be able to do anything and get everything entirely solo in a MMO and thats very different from just being solo friendly. Those extreme soloers are not the majority.
I'm sure they make up a much larger percentage of the total population than the forced groupers who want everyone to be required to group to accomplish anything.
In a multiplayer game, yes I think its ok to expect that....lol
And please don't try and convince me that multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, because that's how the "Holy Trinity" was developed. It has been around since the first MMOs.
That pretty much proves multiplayer was intended for group content.
It doesn't. I've played multiplayer games where I haven't been grouped with people.
Childish response, because you ignored the rest of my comment.
Failed, please try again.
Do you honestly believe you can't have a multiplayer game/experience without grouping? That's what your post is coming across as. Brining up the holy trinity doesn't back up your claim.
You prove my point yet again with the ad hominem attacks.
Obviously you could play SOME of the game. You cannot play it all because of the group mechanics in game, or at least you shouldn't, because then the groups lose that content. This is what you soloers refuse to admit.
Yes, the holy trinity is exactly the proof I need to back up my claim. If multiplayers mmos were not designed for grouping, the holy trinity would not exist.
You have not proved that in order to have a multiplayer experience you NEED group content. Keep trying though.
Was that what I was trying to prove, or is this just another ad hominem attack?
I'm saying multiplayer MMOs were designed with groups in mind, and every time they cater to you soloers, the group loses content. This is inevitable when you make content easier for soloers.
The holy trinity, the economy, the class balancing and so much more, all designed with groups in mind.
Some soloers want to be able to do anything and get everything entirely solo in a MMO and thats very different from just being solo friendly. Those extreme soloers are not the majority.
I'm sure they make up a much larger percentage of the total population than the forced groupers who want everyone to be required to group to accomplish anything.
In a multiplayer game, yes I think its ok to expect that....lol
And please don't try and convince me that multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, because that's how the "Holy Trinity" was developed. It has been around since the first MMOs.
That pretty much proves multiplayer was intended for group content.
It doesn't. I've played multiplayer games where I haven't been grouped with people.
Childish response, because you ignored the rest of my comment.
Failed, please try again.
Do you honestly believe you can't have a multiplayer game/experience without grouping? That's what your post is coming across as. Brining up the holy trinity doesn't back up your claim.
You prove my point yet again with the ad hominem attacks.
Obviously you could play SOME of the game. You cannot play it all because of the group mechanics in game, or at least you shouldn't, because then the groups lose that content. This is what you soloers refuse to admit.
Yes, the holy trinity is exactly the proof I need to back up my claim. If multiplayers mmos were not designed for grouping, the holy trinity would not exist.
You have not proved that in order to have a multiplayer experience you NEED group content. Keep trying though.
Ok so you think playing an MMO is meant to be played by yourself I am confused. So lets break down what MMO means, Massively Multiplayer Online Massively= On a large scale, Multiplayer= More than One person, Online=The Internet. Ok so basically MMO means the game is meant to be played Online with many other players on a large scale. Now with that said I don't personally like to group all the time, but in order to get your character to his/her max potential you should have to do things in a group to some degree (5man 10man ect..). The people that buy an MMO and never play with other people and then cry that they are hindered by what they can do by themselves is just astonishing. Do I buy a single player game and go on the forums and complain that my friends can't join my game and play as well? No I do not because with a single player game the expectation is set that you will be playing the game by yourself.
All in all if you don't like to group up with people ever don't even bother buying an MMO it just isn't your genre, you should stick to single player games. On a side note, I know people have real lives and can't commit a massive amount of time to gaming (i'm in that boat most of the time) but when you are complaining because you only have 20 minutes to play and feel like you can't accomplish anything in that time just don't bother playing until you have an ample amount of time. I for one do not even bother logging into an MMO if I don't have a solid 2-4 hrs to invest into it for the day/night.
TL:DR I think people should not play MMO games if they only like to solo, its dumb and makes no sense to me "I want to eat an apple, but I picked an orange instead and now I'm gonna complain that the orange isn't an apple."- An Idiot
Was that what I was trying to prove, or is this just another ad hominem attack?
I'm saying multiplayer MMOs were designed with groups in mind, and every time they cater to you soloers, the group loses content. This is inevitable when you make content easier for soloers.
The holy trinity, the economy, the class balancing and so much more, all designed with groups in mind.
Holy Trinity yes. But economy and class balancing can have nothing to do with group content.
Some soloers want to be able to do anything and get everything entirely solo in a MMO and thats very different from just being solo friendly. Those extreme soloers are not the majority.
I'm sure they make up a much larger percentage of the total population than the forced groupers who want everyone to be required to group to accomplish anything.
In a multiplayer game, yes I think its ok to expect that....lol
And please don't try and convince me that multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, because that's how the "Holy Trinity" was developed. It has been around since the first MMOs.
That pretty much proves multiplayer was intended for group content.
It doesn't. I've played multiplayer games where I haven't been grouped with people.
Childish response, because you ignored the rest of my comment.
Failed, please try again.
Do you honestly believe you can't have a multiplayer game/experience without grouping? That's what your post is coming across as. Brining up the holy trinity doesn't back up your claim.
You prove my point yet again with the ad hominem attacks.
Obviously you could play SOME of the game. You cannot play it all because of the group mechanics in game, or at least you shouldn't, because then the groups lose that content. This is what you soloers refuse to admit.
Yes, the holy trinity is exactly the proof I need to back up my claim. If multiplayers mmos were not designed for grouping, the holy trinity would not exist.
You have not proved that in order to have a multiplayer experience you NEED group content. Keep trying though.
Was that what I was trying to prove, or is this just another ad hominem attack?
I'm saying multiplayer MMOs were designed with groups in mind, and every time they cater to you soloers, the group loses content. This is inevitable when you make content easier for soloers.
The holy trinity, the economy, the class balancing and so much more, all designed with groups in mind.
And we're saying that they were designed with interaction in mind, not necessarily grouping.
You stated that the "holy trinity" has been around since the first MMO.
You stated that MMOs were intended for group combat.
We've presented why we feel that isn't necessarily true in our counterpoints. Why do consider it an "ad hominem attack" to ask you to provide support for your claim? I guess I'm just not seeing the reason for the insults and defensiveness.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Some soloers want to be able to do anything and get everything entirely solo in a MMO and thats very different from just being solo friendly. Those extreme soloers are not the majority.
I'm sure they make up a much larger percentage of the total population than the forced groupers who want everyone to be required to group to accomplish anything.
In a multiplayer game, yes I think its ok to expect that....lol
And please don't try and convince me that multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, because that's how the "Holy Trinity" was developed. It has been around since the first MMOs.
That pretty much proves multiplayer was intended for group content.
It doesn't. I've played multiplayer games where I haven't been grouped with people.
Childish response, because you ignored the rest of my comment.
Failed, please try again.
Do you honestly believe you can't have a multiplayer game/experience without grouping? That's what your post is coming across as. Brining up the holy trinity doesn't back up your claim.
You prove my point yet again with the ad hominem attacks.
Obviously you could play SOME of the game. You cannot play it all because of the group mechanics in game, or at least you shouldn't, because then the groups lose that content. This is what you soloers refuse to admit.
Yes, the holy trinity is exactly the proof I need to back up my claim. If multiplayers mmos were not designed for grouping, the holy trinity would not exist.
You have not proved that in order to have a multiplayer experience you NEED group content. Keep trying though.
Ok so you think playing an MMO is meant to be played by yourself I am confused. So lets break down what MMO means, Massively Multiplayer Online Massively= On a large scale, Multiplayer= More than One person, Online=The Internet. Ok so basically MMO means the game is meant to be played Online with many other players on a large scale. Now with that said I don't personally like to group all the time, but in order to get your character to his/her max potential you should have to do things in a group to some degree (5man 10man ect..). The people that buy an MMO and never play with other people and then cry that they are hindered by what they can do by themselves is just astonishing. Do I buy a single player game and go on the forums and complain that my friends can't join my game and play as well? No I do not because with a single player game the expectation is set that you will be playing the game by yourself.
All in all if you don't like to group up with people ever don't even bother buying an MMO it just isn't your genre, you should stick to single player games. On a side note, I know people have real lives and can't commit a massive amount of time to gaming (i'm in that boat most of the time) but when you are complaining because you only have 20 minutes to play and feel like you can't accomplish anything in that time just don't bother playing until you have an ample amount of time. I for one do not even bother logging into an MMO if I don't have a solid 2-4 hrs to invest into it for the day/night.
TL:DR I think people should not play MMO games if they only like to solo, its dumb and makes no sense to me "I want to eat an apple, but I picked an orange instead and now I'm gonna complain that the orange isn't an apple."- An Idiot
I don't mind grouping up. IMO it's not group/solo that's killing the industry, its PvE content.
I love to solo PvP, I love to group PvP.
To claim you HAVE to group up to play/enjoy an MMO is silly.
Next it will be you can't enjoy MMO's if there is no PvE content. That's how silly this debate is.
You have not proved that in order to have a multiplayer experience you NEED group content. Keep trying though.
Ok so you think playing an MMO is meant to be played by yourself I am confused.
,,,
TL:DR I think people should not play MMO games if they only like to solo, its dumb and makes no sense to me "I want to eat an apple, but I picked an orange instead and now I'm gonna complain that the orange isn't an apple."- An Idiot
You're definitely confused, as that's not what he wrote at all.
And is it at all possible for you guys to reply without insults? If not, maybe it's worth considering there may be a reason why we don't want to group with you.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Was that what I was trying to prove, or is this just another ad hominem attack?
I'm saying multiplayer MMOs were designed with groups in mind, and every time they cater to you soloers, the group loses content. This is inevitable when you make content easier for soloers.
The holy trinity, the economy, the class balancing and so much more, all designed with groups in mind.
Holy Trinity yes. But economy and class balancing can have nothing to do with group content.
You don't need class balance in a solo game.
You can't have an economy in a solo game.
They were designed for groups against groups in PvP it was balance against each other, for PvE it was balance working with each other, complimenting skills.
Was that what I was trying to prove, or is this just another ad hominem attack?
I'm saying multiplayer MMOs were designed with groups in mind, and every time they cater to you soloers, the group loses content. This is inevitable when you make content easier for soloers.
The holy trinity, the economy, the class balancing and so much more, all designed with groups in mind.
Holy Trinity yes. But economy and class balancing can have nothing to do with group content.
You don't need class balance in a solo game.
You can't have an economy in a solo game.
They were designed for groups against groups in PvP it was balance against each other, for PvE it was balance working with each other, complimenting skills.
I'm not talking about solo games.
Like Lok has mentioned, I think your confusing player interaction with grouping.
Some soloers want to be able to do anything and get everything entirely solo in a MMO and thats very different from just being solo friendly. Those extreme soloers are not the majority.
I'm sure they make up a much larger percentage of the total population than the forced groupers who want everyone to be required to group to accomplish anything.
In a multiplayer game, yes I think its ok to expect that....lol
And please don't try and convince me that multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, because that's how the "Holy Trinity" was developed. It has been around since the first MMOs.
That pretty much proves multiplayer was intended for group content.
It doesn't. I've played multiplayer games where I haven't been grouped with people.
Childish response, because you ignored the rest of my comment.
Failed, please try again.
Do you honestly believe you can't have a multiplayer game/experience without grouping? That's what your post is coming across as. Brining up the holy trinity doesn't back up your claim.
You prove my point yet again with the ad hominem attacks.
Obviously you could play SOME of the game. You cannot play it all because of the group mechanics in game, or at least you shouldn't, because then the groups lose that content. This is what you soloers refuse to admit.
Yes, the holy trinity is exactly the proof I need to back up my claim. If multiplayers mmos were not designed for grouping, the holy trinity would not exist.
You have not proved that in order to have a multiplayer experience you NEED group content. Keep trying though.
Was that what I was trying to prove, or is this just another ad hominem attack?
I'm saying multiplayer MMOs were designed with groups in mind, and every time they cater to you soloers, the group loses content. This is inevitable when you make content easier for soloers.
The holy trinity, the economy, the class balancing and so much more, all designed with groups in mind.
And we're saying that they were designed with interaction in mind, not necessarily grouping.
You stated that the "holy trinity" has been around since the first MMO.
You stated that MMOs were intended for group combat.
We've presented why we feel that isn't necessarily true in our counterpoints. Why do consider it an "ad hominem attack" to ask you to provide support for your claim? I guess I'm just not seeing the reason for the insults and defensiveness.
I know, I've seen it before, your trying to change the definition of multiplayer, when the whole game design if for groups. I haven't insulted you yet.
The holy trinity is designed for groups, I can repeat it a thousand times if you wish to keep ignoring it, but you will never convince anyone that the holy trinity was not designed for group play in multiplayer mmos.
I never said mmos were intended for group combat alone, but yes, the game is designed that way. Again need I point out the holy trinity, class balance and economy? All game mechanics that support group play.
Of course you don't see the point, because you only care about your point, and your game, and you don't want to be bothered with anyone unless its to chat with them because your bored, or to show off your shiney new piece of armor.
Was that what I was trying to prove, or is this just another ad hominem attack?
I'm saying multiplayer MMOs were designed with groups in mind, and every time they cater to you soloers, the group loses content. This is inevitable when you make content easier for soloers.
The holy trinity, the economy, the class balancing and so much more, all designed with groups in mind.
Holy Trinity yes. But economy and class balancing can have nothing to do with group content.
You don't need class balance in a solo game.
You can't have an economy in a solo game.
They were designed for groups against groups in PvP it was balance against each other, for PvE it was balance working with each other, complimenting skills.
I'm not talking about solo games.
Like Lok has mentioned, I think your confusing player interaction with grouping.
Were talking about multiplayer mmos, did you forget where you are?
Like I said before, your confusing player interaction with chat rooms, and that simply is not the case.
Was that what I was trying to prove, or is this just another ad hominem attack?
I'm saying multiplayer MMOs were designed with groups in mind, and every time they cater to you soloers, the group loses content. This is inevitable when you make content easier for soloers.
The holy trinity, the economy, the class balancing and so much more, all designed with groups in mind.
Holy Trinity yes. But economy and class balancing can have nothing to do with group content.
You don't need class balance in a solo game.
You can't have an economy in a solo game.
They were designed for groups against groups in PvP it was balance against each other, for PvE it was balance working with each other, complimenting skills.
I'm not talking about solo games.
Like Lok has mentioned, I think your confusing player interaction with grouping.
Were talking about multiplayer mmos, did you forget where you are?
Like I said before, your confusing player interaction with chat rooms, and that simply is not the case.
Oh yes, ALL the non group stuff I do is just a huge chat room. I like how you think PvP, game economies, exploration to just name a few are just chat rooms.
And please don't try and convince me that multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, because that's how the "Holy Trinity" was developed. It has been around since the first MMOs.
That pretty much proves multiplayer was intended for group content.
I never said mmos were intended for group combat alone, but yes, the game is designed that way.
I give up, man. With each post you jumble your statement around a different way, but you have yet to address what I questioned which was your stance that multiplayer means grouping and that the "holy trinity" has been around since the first MMOs. That is false on both counts as indicated by the list of games I presented.
"The holy trinity is designed for groups, I can repeat it a thousand times if you wish to keep ignoring it"
No one said it wasn't.
Good luck. O7
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No one wants to "force" anyone to play a game in a way they don't enjoy (as if that were possible with video games) but what soloers often don't realize is that in order to accomodate thier prefered play style you have to change the fundemental mechanics of the game in such a way that it invalidates many of the things that groupers like and find fun about thier own play styles.
Think about baseball or football, for example. In order to make those "solo freindly" you'd have to change the basic rule-sets of the games an eliminate many of the things that people enjoy about those games. You probably wouldn't be able to have fielding or base-running in baseball....you certainly wouldn't be stealing bases or making double plays. In football your probably wouldn't be able to do passing or blocking or run different formations.
While people who enjoy cooperative play or team or group based games....don't want to "force" anyone to do something that they don't enjoy....much of what we find fun isn't actualy compatible with going solo. It's that simple.....so unless a game can encorporate entirely different rulesets under the same play-space. "Solo freindly" just isn't going to work well in the type of games we'd enjoy to play.
Some soloers want to be able to do anything and get everything entirely solo in a MMO and thats very different from just being solo friendly. Those extreme soloers are not the majority.
I'm sure they make up a much larger percentage of the total population than the forced groupers who want everyone to be required to group to accomplish anything.
In a multiplayer game, yes I think its ok to expect that....lol
And please don't try and convince me that multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, because that's how the "Holy Trinity" was developed. It has been around since the first MMOs.
That pretty much proves multiplayer was intended for group content.
In case you haven't noticed, MMOs have changed since the first game came out. Whether you like that fact or not doesn't stop it from being a fact. There's no point in trying to convince a fanatic of anything so...
Comments
Ok, I'll give you one:
-I am a Star Wars fan, I played SWG from beta till that one faithful day in 2005.
I had different characters, take for example my jedi or bounty hunter, I liked to hunt wild animals in the wild far away from cities for money, for resources etc etc etc. (money + roleplay + having fun being in a sw world). That said, I discovered a cave system, I went inside to explore and found wild animals, had a LOT of fun killing them (although difficult) and looting.
Same with pvp, I had my seeker droids, I buffed, I found a jedi (npc or player) target, and went out there searching for it, players could take hours to actually initiate combat with them. All that while being in a guild, and having fun doing fights and other rp events with them from time to time.
I loved that, transfer that to today's MMOs and what ppl think they should be like:
Log in, go out in the wild, "hey a cave, let's go explore it...BLAM dead. wtf....ok, need group, and there come Jack the tank, Jill the healer, and Corky the dps...."let's kill the monsters inside....DONE! let's fight over the loot!.....ok done, what now? hmm, let's travel a bit further into the wild, Jack has to go, Jill has her BF coming over.....bye group......hey abandoned base, let's go inside, BLAM! Elite npc...I'm dead. ok, let's spam the chat again for a new group...noone responding? ok I'll just sit in a safe city and wait hours on end and do nothing because I can't do jack sh*t in this game without the healer-tank-dps help"
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Exactly as I said in my previous comment, nothing but shallow and selfish responses.
And again the rest of my comment is ignored. The holy trinity is ignored, all the grouping mechanics that come with multiplayer mmos, ignored.
Just one childish response after another
I'm not sure which is more amusing, that you confront the truth with insults or the level of denial that prompts you to do so. Either way, you seem rather set in your views so I won't bother you anymore with truth, history or reality. Those don't seem to sit well with you.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Sounds like you've had a horrible experience, but you cant possibly think that happens to everyone. I myself have NEVER had an experience like you described.
But your leaving out one important aspect. Doing it your way, any group that happens apon that cave will not enjoy the content, because its all soloable.
It will be way too easy. Now your forcing that group to disban, see how that works.
That wasn't an insult...lol
Besides, all you did was deny, now your telling me that I cant deny. How does that work exactly?
Do you honestly believe you can't have a multiplayer game/experience without grouping? That's what your post is coming across as. Bringing up the holy trinity doesn't back up your claim.
No, solo content was difficult enough at times. I wanted to (role)play some bounty hunter or a random hunter in the game.
And didn't want to have a army behind me to kill a certain mob.
There were ofc those in the game (Krayt dragons), but my experience in all other mmos that came after it (a LOT), you need a group to even take a piss.
"I am a dangerous warrior, let's fight! oh no, I need a healer, tank, dps, preferrably 10 of each and maybe I stand a chance".
Grouping: ok, but it should not be a requirement from start to finish.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
You prove my point yet again with the ad hominem attacks.
Obviously you could play SOME of the game. You cannot play it all because of the group mechanics in game, or at least you shouldn't, because then the groups lose that content. This is what you soloers refuse to admit.
Yes, the holy trinity is exactly the proof I need to back up my claim. If multiplayers mmos were not designed for grouping, the holy trinity would not exist.
Who cares how difficult it was for you to solo that content, its now lost to any group because its too easy.
In a multiplayer MMO yes grouping should be from start to finish. Otherwise its a different game.
You have not proved that in order to have a multiplayer experience you NEED group content. Keep trying though.
Was that what I was trying to prove, or is this just another ad hominem attack?
I'm saying multiplayer MMOs were designed with groups in mind, and every time they cater to you soloers, the group loses content. This is inevitable when you make content easier for soloers.
The holy trinity, the economy, the class balancing and so much more, all designed with groups in mind.
Ok so you think playing an MMO is meant to be played by yourself I am confused. So lets break down what MMO means, Massively Multiplayer Online Massively= On a large scale, Multiplayer= More than One person, Online=The Internet. Ok so basically MMO means the game is meant to be played Online with many other players on a large scale. Now with that said I don't personally like to group all the time, but in order to get your character to his/her max potential you should have to do things in a group to some degree (5man 10man ect..). The people that buy an MMO and never play with other people and then cry that they are hindered by what they can do by themselves is just astonishing. Do I buy a single player game and go on the forums and complain that my friends can't join my game and play as well? No I do not because with a single player game the expectation is set that you will be playing the game by yourself.
All in all if you don't like to group up with people ever don't even bother buying an MMO it just isn't your genre, you should stick to single player games. On a side note, I know people have real lives and can't commit a massive amount of time to gaming (i'm in that boat most of the time) but when you are complaining because you only have 20 minutes to play and feel like you can't accomplish anything in that time just don't bother playing until you have an ample amount of time. I for one do not even bother logging into an MMO if I don't have a solid 2-4 hrs to invest into it for the day/night.
TL:DR I think people should not play MMO games if they only like to solo, its dumb and makes no sense to me "I want to eat an apple, but I picked an orange instead and now I'm gonna complain that the orange isn't an apple."- An Idiot
Holy Trinity yes. But economy and class balancing can have nothing to do with group content.
And we're saying that they were designed with interaction in mind, not necessarily grouping.
We've presented why we feel that isn't necessarily true in our counterpoints. Why do consider it an "ad hominem attack" to ask you to provide support for your claim? I guess I'm just not seeing the reason for the insults and defensiveness.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I don't mind grouping up. IMO it's not group/solo that's killing the industry, its PvE content.
I love to solo PvP, I love to group PvP.
To claim you HAVE to group up to play/enjoy an MMO is silly.
Next it will be you can't enjoy MMO's if there is no PvE content. That's how silly this debate is.
You're definitely confused, as that's not what he wrote at all.
And is it at all possible for you guys to reply without insults? If not, maybe it's worth considering there may be a reason why we don't want to group with you.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You don't need class balance in a solo game.
You can't have an economy in a solo game.
They were designed for groups against groups in PvP it was balance against each other, for PvE it was balance working with each other, complimenting skills.
I'm not talking about solo games.
Like Lok has mentioned, I think your confusing player interaction with grouping.
I know, I've seen it before, your trying to change the definition of multiplayer, when the whole game design if for groups. I haven't insulted you yet.
The holy trinity is designed for groups, I can repeat it a thousand times if you wish to keep ignoring it, but you will never convince anyone that the holy trinity was not designed for group play in multiplayer mmos.
I never said mmos were intended for group combat alone, but yes, the game is designed that way. Again need I point out the holy trinity, class balance and economy? All game mechanics that support group play.
Of course you don't see the point, because you only care about your point, and your game, and you don't want to be bothered with anyone unless its to chat with them because your bored, or to show off your shiney new piece of armor.
Were talking about multiplayer mmos, did you forget where you are?
Like I said before, your confusing player interaction with chat rooms, and that simply is not the case.
Oh yes, ALL the non group stuff I do is just a huge chat room. I like how you think PvP, game economies, exploration to just name a few are just chat rooms.
I give up, man. With each post you jumble your statement around a different way, but you have yet to address what I questioned which was your stance that multiplayer means grouping and that the "holy trinity" has been around since the first MMOs. That is false on both counts as indicated by the list of games I presented.
"The holy trinity is designed for groups, I can repeat it a thousand times if you wish to keep ignoring it"
No one said it wasn't.
Good luck. O7
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No one wants to "force" anyone to play a game in a way they don't enjoy (as if that were possible with video games) but what soloers often don't realize is that in order to accomodate thier prefered play style you have to change the fundemental mechanics of the game in such a way that it invalidates many of the things that groupers like and find fun about thier own play styles.
Think about baseball or football, for example. In order to make those "solo freindly" you'd have to change the basic rule-sets of the games an eliminate many of the things that people enjoy about those games. You probably wouldn't be able to have fielding or base-running in baseball....you certainly wouldn't be stealing bases or making double plays. In football your probably wouldn't be able to do passing or blocking or run different formations.
While people who enjoy cooperative play or team or group based games....don't want to "force" anyone to do something that they don't enjoy....much of what we find fun isn't actualy compatible with going solo. It's that simple.....so unless a game can encorporate entirely different rulesets under the same play-space. "Solo freindly" just isn't going to work well in the type of games we'd enjoy to play.
In case you haven't noticed, MMOs have changed since the first game came out. Whether you like that fact or not doesn't stop it from being a fact. There's no point in trying to convince a fanatic of anything so...
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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