You talk about being forced to group, then go on and say how awesome it is too solo and more people should be doing it.
Do you know what a hypocrite is?
Your whole post was all about YOU.
Until you start paying me over $45/mon on WoW alone each month, yeah it will be about my toon.
If you like to waste your time crawling through 10 miles of snow to some instance to raid for 15hrs a night, fine, but don't instill your pain on others. Otherwise, that's the very definition of a hypocrite, a "my way of the highway" control freak.
We had our time with forced groups as the "only" choice, about time to have actual choices now.
Never seen a game sub at $45 ...lol.. paying for you kids accounts is not my problem, or anyone elses.
What does walking thru snow have to do with MMOs?
And why are you still trying to force your solo play style onto millions of players?
Look around you, the P2P model is coming back, group content is coming back. Its clear that you are the minority, and your "aggressive" manner only proves that you are well aware of how wrong you are.
But you desperately cling to the failed experiment. Enjoy your sub-par F2P games (that actually cost more in the long run)
If I want to play in a group, I join or create a group.
If I want to play on my own, I don't join or create a group.
Yes, I really think it is this simple.
As long as it's possible to see some top end game content AND be able to acquire best in slot gear without being forced to group, then I agree.
As soon as I reach that wall (and I do in every damn MMO) that effectively says "Well, this is as far as you can progress your character solo. But you can get him some much better gear if you find 9 friends..." then it's time to quit and uninstall.
These days I just save myself the potential grief and the first question I have about any MMO is "How far can I progress without grouping compared to soloing?" If those aren't equal, the game can suck it.
This progression limitation based on how many others you are teamed with is bullshit that needs to stop being the only option.
Progressively harder content that offers the chance at progressively better rewards.
For every class equally, whether the player chooses to group or solo.
You talk about being forced to group, then go on and say how awesome it is too solo and more people should be doing it.
Do you know what a hypocrite is?
Your whole post was all about YOU.
Until you start paying me over $45/mon on WoW alone each month, yeah it will be about my toon.
If you like to waste your time crawling through 10 miles of snow to some instance to raid for 15hrs a night, fine, but don't instill your pain on others. Otherwise, that's the very definition of a hypocrite, a "my way of the highway" control freak.
We had our time with forced groups as the "only" choice, about time to have actual choices now.
Never seen a game sub at $45 ...lol.. paying for you kids accounts is not my problem, or anyone elses.
What does walking thru snow have to do with MMOs?
And why are you still trying to force your solo play style onto millions of players?
Look around you, the P2P model is coming back, group content is coming back. Its clear that you are the minority, and your "aggressive" manner only proves that you are well aware of how wrong you are.
But you desperately cling to the failed experiment. Enjoy your sub-par F2P games (that actually cost more in the long run)
You kids? I'm probably old enough to be at least your mom (I'm nearly 50). I have 3 WoW subs.
I used to play 4 MMOs at a time.
Now, open your wallet to pay for my multiple WoW, EQII, EvE and RIFT subs. Otherwise, don't tell me how to play.
MMOs have matured as well as the communities. So have the game style choices. I'm not raiding 15hrs a night, not because of being "entitled", physically I can't do that stuff anymore. When I was 30, yeah. Not nearly 50, 2-4hrs a night is enough.
You talk about being forced to group, then go on and say how awesome it is too solo and more people should be doing it.
Do you know what a hypocrite is?
Your whole post was all about YOU.
Until you start paying me over $45/mon on WoW alone each month, yeah it will be about my toon.
If you like to waste your time crawling through 10 miles of snow to some instance to raid for 15hrs a night, fine, but don't instill your pain on others. Otherwise, that's the very definition of a hypocrite, a "my way of the highway" control freak.
We had our time with forced groups as the "only" choice, about time to have actual choices now.
Never seen a game sub at $45 ...lol.. paying for you kids accounts is not my problem, or anyone elses.
What does walking thru snow have to do with MMOs?
And why are you still trying to force your solo play style onto millions of players?
Look around you, the P2P model is coming back, group content is coming back. Its clear that you are the minority, and your "aggressive" manner only proves that you are well aware of how wrong you are.
But you desperately cling to the failed experiment. Enjoy your sub-par F2P games (that actually cost more in the long run)
You kids? I'm probably old enough to be at least your mom (I'm nearly 50). I have 3 WoW subs.
I used to play 4 MMOs at a time.
Now, open your wallet to pay for my multiple WoW, EQII, EvE and RIFT subs. Otherwise, don't tell me how to play.
MMOs have matured as well as the communities. So have the game style choices. I'm not raiding 15hrs a night, not because of being "entitled", physically I can't do that stuff anymore. When I was 30, yeah. Not nearly 50, 2-4hrs a night is enough.
I said "your kids", didn't realize all those accounts were for you. I guess you got a lot of time on your hands
Don't tell me to play either, nobody is forcing you to buy a game that supports the group/trinity model. Stick to the solo centric games and stop complaining that you cant solo everything.
Every time you whine about not being able to solo everything, your effectively forcing me to play your way, and that just wont fly.
If I want to play in a group, I join or create a group.
If I want to play on my own, I don't join or create a group.
Yes, I really think it is this simple.
As long as it's possible to see some top end game content AND be able to acquire best in slot gear without being forced to group, then I agree.
As soon as I reach that wall (and I do in every damn MMO) that effectively says "Well, this is as far as you can progress your character solo. But you can get him some much better gear if you find 9 friends..." then it's time to quit and uninstall.
These days I just save myself the potential grief and the first question I have about any MMO is "How far can I progress without grouping compared to soloing?" If those aren't equal, the game can suck it.
This progression limitation based on how many others you are teamed with is bullshit that needs to stop being the only option.
Progressively harder content that offers the chance at progressively better rewards.
For every class equally, whether the player chooses to group or solo.
What your not understanding, is that you cannot have both equally, unless you double all the quests and dungeons and so forth, one set for groups and one set for soloers.
It seems most devs are unwilling to do this, maybe it costs too much?
Until we get content that is perfectly scalable to the amount of players and there levels, then your out of luck. Stick to the single player games. If you really need to chat with someone while you play, then open up Skype or something....geez
There are millions of players who completely disagree with you on about "progression limitation", they call it "having fun playing an MMO with like minded people".
Try it sometime, you might actually enjoy yourself
I said "your kids", didn't realize all those accounts were for you. I guess you got a lot of time on your hands Don't tell me to play either, nobody is forcing you to buy a game that supports the group/trinity model. Stick to the solo centric games and stop complaining that you cant solo everything.Every time you whine about not being able to solo everything, your effectively forcing me to play your way, and that just wont fly.
I solo even current content, not because I want to do it all the time, but because your group/trinity players fail. All that training to be self-sufficient has your trinity healer -- tanking/healing/DPSing, instead.
The other week had the damn DPS commenting that the Holy paladin can tank the LFR boss. I'm serious. I said, "no" and left. I am not carrying bad players with ADHD problems through content, then have them rant that "solo players are ruining our game".
Not rewarding that behavior at all.
I solo for the personal challenge. No one helps. No extra buffs. Just me and some boss. Sometimes it takes hours of finding what works. Sometimes a few minutes. But it's fun to me, because *I* did it.
If you ever had stared death in it's face before, you'd understand why doing it yourself is important. It makes you stronger.
If I want to play in a group, I join or create a group.
If I want to play on my own, I don't join or create a group.
Yes, I really think it is this simple.
As long as it's possible to see some top end game content AND be able to acquire best in slot gear without being forced to group, then I agree.
As soon as I reach that wall (and I do in every damn MMO) that effectively says "Well, this is as far as you can progress your character solo. But you can get him some much better gear if you find 9 friends..." then it's time to quit and uninstall.
These days I just save myself the potential grief and the first question I have about any MMO is "How far can I progress without grouping compared to soloing?" If those aren't equal, the game can suck it.
This progression limitation based on how many others you are teamed with is bullshit that needs to stop being the only option.
Progressively harder content that offers the chance at progressively better rewards.
For every class equally, whether the player chooses to group or solo.
What your not understanding, is that you cannot have both equally, unless you double all the quests and dungeons and so forth, one set for groups and one set for soloers.
It seems most devs are unwilling to do this, maybe it costs too much?
Until we get content that is perfectly scalable to the amount of players and there levels, then your out of luck. Stick to the single player games. If you really need to chat with someone while you play, then open up Skype or something....geez
There are millions of players who completely disagree with you on about "progression limitation", they call it "having fun playing an MMO with like minded people".
Try it sometime, you might actually enjoy yourself
I used to be in a regular raiding group, for years, in several MMOs. So I have tried it.
My point has nothing to do with chatting with others; MMOs are persistent worlds and feel alive in a way that single player games never will. I enjoy the auction house, I enjoy seeing others running around and sometimes I enjoy grouping.
I simply feel it's wrong to make it absolutely required for endgame progression in every damn MMO.
Also, I'm pretty confident I can say that there are millions of players who would like to see such a thing.
This is not an anti-grouping post, rather it speaks against grouping being the ONLY method of endgame progression. Do you feel that every single MMO should be designed that way? For all time?
I firmly believe that the first AAA MMO that allows for soloers to have meaningful progression at endgame will reap huge rewards.
What your not understanding, is that you cannot have both equally, unless you double all the quests and dungeons and so forth, one set for groups and one set for soloers.
It seems most devs are unwilling to do this, maybe it costs too much?
It's not cost, it's the will.
MMOs to devs are about grouping. But 20% (or more) solo exclusively. The devs make a conscious decision to exclude them, or force them to do more solo activities like questing.
In the scheme of things it's wrong, because those players are paying for the same "service" as those asking to play in groups. It's like saying the guy on 12th street who pays his light bill is more special than the guy who pays it on 10th street. Same billing rate, same usage, but the guy on 10th street is discriminated against solely because he plays differently. That has been tolerated for too long to be honest, milking the soloers so the raiders, for example, can get a new shining exclusive raid all to themselves (I despise TBC for that mentality, as well as game cultures the espouse that entitlement behavior).
MMOs resemble some of the worst things that in RL isn't tolerated. If gaming were a public utility, there would be riots over how these companies treat their customers. Bilking 20% of your customers so that 10% of them can have fancier things, smacks of special treatment.
Back in 2008 just mentioning things like this was heresy to the rank and file. They could only see ONE way to play MMOs, and jealously guarded it. It's 2013 now, and people don't have to accept that BS anymore. Competition finally arrived to kick those dinosaurs where it counts -- and it good, because they're stagnating innovation.
The most powerful thing a gamer has is his wallet. Support companies that bring you entertainment, they earn it. But put that wallet back in the pocket to those who only push their designs, and over your ideas of fun. Eventually they'll understand what is profitable, or, what can close a company soon enough.
And why are you still trying to force your solo play style onto millions of players?
Look around you, the P2P model is coming back, group content is coming back. Its clear that you are the minority, and your "aggressive" manner only proves that you are well aware of how wrong you are.
But you desperately cling to the failed experiment. Enjoy your sub-par F2P games (that actually cost more in the long run)
Can you group? Yes? Then nobody is forcing you to solo. Then again, nobody on our side is saying we need to eliminate grouping, but there are lots of people on the pro-grouping side that want to eliminate soloing.
And the majority of F2P players never pay a penny to play those games. I suppose reality doesn't matter to you, you don't let the facts get in the way of your agenda.
And why are you still trying to force your solo play style onto millions of players?
Look around you, the P2P model is coming back, group content is coming back. Its clear that you are the minority, and your "aggressive" manner only proves that you are well aware of how wrong you are.
But you desperately cling to the failed experiment. Enjoy your sub-par F2P games (that actually cost more in the long run)
Can you group? Yes? Then nobody is forcing you to solo. Then again, nobody on our side is saying we need to eliminate grouping, but there are lots of people on the pro-grouping side that want to eliminate soloing.
And the majority of F2P players never pay a penny to play those games. I suppose reality doesn't matter to you, you don't let the facts get in the way of your agenda.
Besides, it doesn't matter how much solo content the game has, in virtually every MMO, grouping is king because ONLY grouping can get you the best gear, only grouping as endgame progression.
No one is trying to eliminate grouping. I just don't see why it always always always has to be the only way to make meaningful endgame progression. Progression should never hit a wall in one playstyle and not the other. Both need to have chances at the same loot. That said, I DO think grouping should be the faster way to get the top gear, I just don't think it should be the ONLY way. Unfortunately, every effing dev on the planet seems to think that it should be the only way.
I said "your kids", didn't realize all those accounts were for you. I guess you got a lot of time on your hands Don't tell me to play either, nobody is forcing you to buy a game that supports the group/trinity model. Stick to the solo centric games and stop complaining that you cant solo everything.Every time you whine about not being able to solo everything, your effectively forcing me to play your way, and that just wont fly.
I solo even current content, not because I want to do it all the time, but because your group/trinity players fail. All that training to be self-sufficient has your trinity healer -- tanking/healing/DPSing, instead.
The other week had the damn DPS commenting that the Holy paladin can tank the LFR boss. I'm serious. I said, "no" and left. I am not carrying bad players with ADHD problems through content, then have them rant that "solo players are ruining our game".
Not rewarding that behavior at all.
I solo for the personal challenge. No one helps. No extra buffs. Just me and some boss. Sometimes it takes hours of finding what works. Sometimes a few minutes. But it's fun to me, because *I* did it.
If you ever had stared death in it's face before, you'd understand why doing it yourself is important. It makes you stronger.
From your comments, I suspect your the difficult one to group with
And why are you still trying to force your solo play style onto millions of players?
Look around you, the P2P model is coming back, group content is coming back. Its clear that you are the minority, and your "aggressive" manner only proves that you are well aware of how wrong you are.
But you desperately cling to the failed experiment. Enjoy your sub-par F2P games (that actually cost more in the long run)
Can you group? Yes? Then nobody is forcing you to solo. Then again, nobody on our side is saying we need to eliminate grouping, but there are lots of people on the pro-grouping side that want to eliminate soloing.
And the majority of F2P players never pay a penny to play those games. I suppose reality doesn't matter to you, you don't let the facts get in the way of your agenda.
Can you solo? Then nobody is forcing you to group.
Why would anyone want to eliminate grouping in a MMO that is designed around group content? Did you bump your head!?
So again your asking me to change, to accommodate players who cant afford to play MMOs?
You talk about facts, and yet haven't provided a single one, all you did was cry and whine.
And why are you still trying to force your solo play style onto millions of players?
Look around you, the P2P model is coming back, group content is coming back. Its clear that you are the minority, and your "aggressive" manner only proves that you are well aware of how wrong you are.
But you desperately cling to the failed experiment. Enjoy your sub-par F2P games (that actually cost more in the long run)
Can you group? Yes? Then nobody is forcing you to solo. Then again, nobody on our side is saying we need to eliminate grouping, but there are lots of people on the pro-grouping side that want to eliminate soloing.
And the majority of F2P players never pay a penny to play those games. I suppose reality doesn't matter to you, you don't let the facts get in the way of your agenda.
Can you solo? Then nobody is forcing you to group.
Why would anyone want to eliminate grouping in a MMO that is designed around group content? Did you bump your head!?
Can you maximize your character's progression through solo play? No? Then you are being forced to group.
NO ONE, I repeat, NOT ONE POST in this thread has suggested eliminating grouping. We are suggesting that grouping not be the only way to progress at endgame (PVE wise). I think it's a very good idea to have grouping as one of the methods of progression, and I also think it's a very bad idea to have it as the only method of progression, at any stage of the game.
And why are you still trying to force your solo play style onto millions of players?
Look around you, the P2P model is coming back, group content is coming back. Its clear that you are the minority, and your "aggressive" manner only proves that you are well aware of how wrong you are.
But you desperately cling to the failed experiment. Enjoy your sub-par F2P games (that actually cost more in the long run)
Can you group? Yes? Then nobody is forcing you to solo. Then again, nobody on our side is saying we need to eliminate grouping, but there are lots of people on the pro-grouping side that want to eliminate soloing.
And the majority of F2P players never pay a penny to play those games. I suppose reality doesn't matter to you, you don't let the facts get in the way of your agenda.
Can you solo? Then nobody is forcing you to group.
Why would anyone want to eliminate grouping in a MMO that is designed around group content? Did you bump your head!?
Can you maximize your character's progression through solo play? No? Then you are being forced to group.
NO ONE, I repeat, NOT ONE POST in this thread has suggested eliminating grouping. We are suggesting that grouping not be the only way to progress at endgame (PVE wise). I think it's a very good idea to have grouping as one of the methods of progression, and I also think it's a very bad idea to have it as the only method of progression, at any stage of the game.
Did someone force you to buy a MMO that openly stated it was built around group content and PvP?
You cannot make a MMO soloable from beginning to end without sacrificing the group mechanics and content, period.
Its clear you cant understand that simple point, but don't worry, I will keep repeating it for you.
And why are you still trying to force your solo play style onto millions of players?
Look around you, the P2P model is coming back, group content is coming back. Its clear that you are the minority, and your "aggressive" manner only proves that you are well aware of how wrong you are.
But you desperately cling to the failed experiment. Enjoy your sub-par F2P games (that actually cost more in the long run)
Can you group? Yes? Then nobody is forcing you to solo. Then again, nobody on our side is saying we need to eliminate grouping, but there are lots of people on the pro-grouping side that want to eliminate soloing.
And the majority of F2P players never pay a penny to play those games. I suppose reality doesn't matter to you, you don't let the facts get in the way of your agenda.
Can you solo? Then nobody is forcing you to group.
Why would anyone want to eliminate grouping in a MMO that is designed around group content? Did you bump your head!?
Can you maximize your character's progression through solo play? No? Then you are being forced to group.
NO ONE, I repeat, NOT ONE POST in this thread has suggested eliminating grouping. We are suggesting that grouping not be the only way to progress at endgame (PVE wise). I think it's a very good idea to have grouping as one of the methods of progression, and I also think it's a very bad idea to have it as the only method of progression, at any stage of the game.
Did someone force you to buy a MMO that openly stated it was built around group content and PvP?
You cannot make a MMO soloable from beginning to end without sacrificing the group mechanics and content, period.
Its clear you cant understand that simple point, but don't worry, I will keep repeating it for you.
There's a big difference between comprehension and agreement.
So, your point of view is that NO MMO should allow for soloable endgame progression?
Ever?
For all time, every single MMO ever produced MUST follow the forced grouping for end progression paradigm?
Why is it so egregious for at least a few MMOs to have soloable endgame progression?
From your comments, I suspect your the difficult one to group with
Like grouping with those who specialize in roles/sub-classes they prefer to play, and know how to socialize (and not only with barn animals). Not the screaming yabbers running their next alt through with crap gear and without care.
And from your comments, I suspect you're not one of them.
Why is it so egregious for at least a few MMOs to have soloable endgame progression?
[mod edit]
Truth is MMOs have to force grouping to justify having a MMO genre, otherwise MMOs are solo RPGs or FPS games.
RIFT did something to help though, which I hope other games would pick up on is the ease of grouping; mechanics designed for open public groups; sensible looting (no more ninjaing and loot griefing); random spawn time world bosses; and can turn off PvP (so we don't have the junk WoW has facing world bosses).
Improvements would be scaling the randomized invasions, so small or large groups can get similar challenges (flaw with RIFT's world bosses were the size didn't scale); epic loot can drop, so running them a few times a night has a purpose; pacing small encounters hourly or so, larger invasions (excursions) at 4+ hour intervals; easier means to travel between them.
Soloers would group if there was a reason to group, and on their time table. It's not wasting 3hrs in chat looking for a group, though.
Grouping in mmorpg's has changed over the years and as for now it is no fun at all so we will se more and more games where the adventure part of the game is solo and the social part of games will be different.
Why is it so egregious for at least a few MMOs to have soloable endgame progression?
[mod edit]
Truth is MMOs have to force grouping to justify having a MMO genre, otherwise MMOs are solo RPGs or FPS games.
RIFT did something to help though, which I hope other games would pick up on is the ease of grouping; mechanics designed for open public groups; sensible looting (no more ninjaing and loot griefing); random spawn time world bosses; and can turn off PvP (so we don't have the junk WoW has facing world bosses).
Improvements would be scaling the randomized invasions, so small or large groups can get similar challenges (flaw with RIFT's world bosses were the size didn't scale); epic loot can drop, so running them a few times a night has a purpose; pacing small encounters hourly or so, larger invasions (excursions) at 4+ hour intervals; easier means to travel between them.
Soloers would group if there was a reason to group, and on their time table. It's not wasting 3hrs in chat looking for a group, though.
Exactly my point, its all about you, and only you.
The last few MMOs that followed your line of thinking, failed miserably. GW2 is hanging on, but lost many players because there was no reason to even talk to anyone.
If there are so many soloers as you claim, then GW2 would be at full pop constantly, because its a soloers dreamboat.
Sorry pal, you had your chance. The F2P and Solo crowd had the chance to prove they could support a AAA MMO, but it never happened.
...The reason I say this is because MMOs are meant to be played socially. Player interaction includes grouping...Thats why they are MMOs and not single player RPGs...
This is your opinion of what you think an MMO is. However it is not this by definition or in my opinion.
Its just a game that allows multiple people to play the same game at the same time providing the opportunity to group.
As an example, PvP can be done solo and I have an abundance of targets because it is a MMO.
Not giving you a hard time.
Eve is a great example that provides the opportunity for both in any play style. Its why it is my favorite game.
I've thought long and hard about this very concept. Are MMO's even made anymore with grouping at it's core? Or would this upset the solo crowd and lead to a low money making game? I don't know of any current games or future games that have "forced" grouping. I don't have much hope though. It would almost require two game to be made into one - solo based servers and group oriented servers, etc.
Originally posted by Bennu I've thought long and hard about this very concept. Are MMO's even made anymore with grouping at it's core? Or would this upset the solo crowd and lead to a low money making game? I don't know of any current games or future games that have "forced" grouping. I don't have much hope though. It would almost require two game to be made into one - solo based servers and group oriented servers, etc.
Your right, there is only 2 ways to make it work.
We do it your way and double everything, all the quests, and all the dungeons, one set for soloers and one set for grouping.
Or, we wait until some company invents a system that can scale players to a dungeon, depending on the size of the group.
Anything less, and one side gets shafted.
Recent MMOs have tried to make it work, like GW2, but they found out that players like to talk to one another....lol
I agree that is darn near impossible to please both groups. It is easier to make the game solo friendly and the game will attract way more people. I will simply continue in my search, but it looks like I'll be playing single player games for awhile to get my gaming fix.
Why is it so egregious for at least a few MMOs to have soloable endgame progression?
[mod edit]
Truth is MMOs have to force grouping to justify having a MMO genre, otherwise MMOs are solo RPGs or FPS games.
RIFT did something to help though, which I hope other games would pick up on is the ease of grouping; mechanics designed for open public groups; sensible looting (no more ninjaing and loot griefing); random spawn time world bosses; and can turn off PvP (so we don't have the junk WoW has facing world bosses).
Improvements would be scaling the randomized invasions, so small or large groups can get similar challenges (flaw with RIFT's world bosses were the size didn't scale); epic loot can drop, so running them a few times a night has a purpose; pacing small encounters hourly or so, larger invasions (excursions) at 4+ hour intervals; easier means to travel between them.
Soloers would group if there was a reason to group, and on their time table. It's not wasting 3hrs in chat looking for a group, though.
FPS games are also multiplayer, I've grouped up with 4/8 players in those games in PvP
How big are these forced groups to justify the first M in MMO? 200? Is that massive enough?
I am just curious is that grouping so damn not appealing, so not beneficial, that it should be promoted by additional benefits and exclusive rewards in game play. Is participating in group play not rewarding on its own.
Oh, my little one, take another spoon of this wonderful, delicious something and I will reward you with gold and diamonds.
Are those people who want special attention to group play should be lying on the floor in self invoked convulsions shouting: “Give me! Give me! Give me!”
Why to divide play on group or solo on first place? Just make it hard enough for every player. Leave for groups a tactical and strategic advantages though.
Want more complex, more interesting play? What it has to do with that play to be only accessible by groups?
Comments
Never seen a game sub at $45 ...lol.. paying for you kids accounts is not my problem, or anyone elses.
What does walking thru snow have to do with MMOs?
And why are you still trying to force your solo play style onto millions of players?
Look around you, the P2P model is coming back, group content is coming back. Its clear that you are the minority, and your "aggressive" manner only proves that you are well aware of how wrong you are.
But you desperately cling to the failed experiment. Enjoy your sub-par F2P games (that actually cost more in the long run)
As long as it's possible to see some top end game content AND be able to acquire best in slot gear without being forced to group, then I agree.
As soon as I reach that wall (and I do in every damn MMO) that effectively says "Well, this is as far as you can progress your character solo. But you can get him some much better gear if you find 9 friends..." then it's time to quit and uninstall.
These days I just save myself the potential grief and the first question I have about any MMO is "How far can I progress without grouping compared to soloing?" If those aren't equal, the game can suck it.
This progression limitation based on how many others you are teamed with is bullshit that needs to stop being the only option.
Progressively harder content that offers the chance at progressively better rewards.
For every class equally, whether the player chooses to group or solo.
You kids? I'm probably old enough to be at least your mom (I'm nearly 50). I have 3 WoW subs.
I used to play 4 MMOs at a time.
Now, open your wallet to pay for my multiple WoW, EQII, EvE and RIFT subs. Otherwise, don't tell me how to play.
MMOs have matured as well as the communities. So have the game style choices. I'm not raiding 15hrs a night, not because of being "entitled", physically I can't do that stuff anymore. When I was 30, yeah. Not nearly 50, 2-4hrs a night is enough.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I said "your kids", didn't realize all those accounts were for you. I guess you got a lot of time on your hands
Don't tell me to play either, nobody is forcing you to buy a game that supports the group/trinity model. Stick to the solo centric games and stop complaining that you cant solo everything.
Every time you whine about not being able to solo everything, your effectively forcing me to play your way, and that just wont fly.
What your not understanding, is that you cannot have both equally, unless you double all the quests and dungeons and so forth, one set for groups and one set for soloers.
It seems most devs are unwilling to do this, maybe it costs too much?
Until we get content that is perfectly scalable to the amount of players and there levels, then your out of luck. Stick to the single player games. If you really need to chat with someone while you play, then open up Skype or something....geez
There are millions of players who completely disagree with you on about "progression limitation", they call it "having fun playing an MMO with like minded people".
Try it sometime, you might actually enjoy yourself
I solo even current content, not because I want to do it all the time, but because your group/trinity players fail. All that training to be self-sufficient has your trinity healer -- tanking/healing/DPSing, instead.
The other week had the damn DPS commenting that the Holy paladin can tank the LFR boss. I'm serious. I said, "no" and left. I am not carrying bad players with ADHD problems through content, then have them rant that "solo players are ruining our game".
Not rewarding that behavior at all.
I solo for the personal challenge. No one helps. No extra buffs. Just me and some boss. Sometimes it takes hours of finding what works. Sometimes a few minutes. But it's fun to me, because *I* did it.
If you ever had stared death in it's face before, you'd understand why doing it yourself is important. It makes you stronger.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I used to be in a regular raiding group, for years, in several MMOs. So I have tried it.
My point has nothing to do with chatting with others; MMOs are persistent worlds and feel alive in a way that single player games never will. I enjoy the auction house, I enjoy seeing others running around and sometimes I enjoy grouping.
I simply feel it's wrong to make it absolutely required for endgame progression in every damn MMO.
Also, I'm pretty confident I can say that there are millions of players who would like to see such a thing.
This is not an anti-grouping post, rather it speaks against grouping being the ONLY method of endgame progression. Do you feel that every single MMO should be designed that way? For all time?
I firmly believe that the first AAA MMO that allows for soloers to have meaningful progression at endgame will reap huge rewards.
It's not cost, it's the will.
MMOs to devs are about grouping. But 20% (or more) solo exclusively. The devs make a conscious decision to exclude them, or force them to do more solo activities like questing.
In the scheme of things it's wrong, because those players are paying for the same "service" as those asking to play in groups. It's like saying the guy on 12th street who pays his light bill is more special than the guy who pays it on 10th street. Same billing rate, same usage, but the guy on 10th street is discriminated against solely because he plays differently. That has been tolerated for too long to be honest, milking the soloers so the raiders, for example, can get a new shining exclusive raid all to themselves (I despise TBC for that mentality, as well as game cultures the espouse that entitlement behavior).
MMOs resemble some of the worst things that in RL isn't tolerated. If gaming were a public utility, there would be riots over how these companies treat their customers. Bilking 20% of your customers so that 10% of them can have fancier things, smacks of special treatment.
Back in 2008 just mentioning things like this was heresy to the rank and file. They could only see ONE way to play MMOs, and jealously guarded it. It's 2013 now, and people don't have to accept that BS anymore. Competition finally arrived to kick those dinosaurs where it counts -- and it good, because they're stagnating innovation.
The most powerful thing a gamer has is his wallet. Support companies that bring you entertainment, they earn it. But put that wallet back in the pocket to those who only push their designs, and over your ideas of fun. Eventually they'll understand what is profitable, or, what can close a company soon enough.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Can you group? Yes? Then nobody is forcing you to solo. Then again, nobody on our side is saying we need to eliminate grouping, but there are lots of people on the pro-grouping side that want to eliminate soloing.
And the majority of F2P players never pay a penny to play those games. I suppose reality doesn't matter to you, you don't let the facts get in the way of your agenda.
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Besides, it doesn't matter how much solo content the game has, in virtually every MMO, grouping is king because ONLY grouping can get you the best gear, only grouping as endgame progression.
No one is trying to eliminate grouping. I just don't see why it always always always has to be the only way to make meaningful endgame progression. Progression should never hit a wall in one playstyle and not the other. Both need to have chances at the same loot. That said, I DO think grouping should be the faster way to get the top gear, I just don't think it should be the ONLY way. Unfortunately, every effing dev on the planet seems to think that it should be the only way.
From your comments, I suspect your the difficult one to group with
Can you solo? Then nobody is forcing you to group.
Why would anyone want to eliminate grouping in a MMO that is designed around group content? Did you bump your head!?
So again your asking me to change, to accommodate players who cant afford to play MMOs?
You talk about facts, and yet haven't provided a single one, all you did was cry and whine.
Can you maximize your character's progression through solo play? No? Then you are being forced to group.
NO ONE, I repeat, NOT ONE POST in this thread has suggested eliminating grouping. We are suggesting that grouping not be the only way to progress at endgame (PVE wise). I think it's a very good idea to have grouping as one of the methods of progression, and I also think it's a very bad idea to have it as the only method of progression, at any stage of the game.
Did someone force you to buy a MMO that openly stated it was built around group content and PvP?
You cannot make a MMO soloable from beginning to end without sacrificing the group mechanics and content, period.
Its clear you cant understand that simple point, but don't worry, I will keep repeating it for you.
There's a big difference between comprehension and agreement.
So, your point of view is that NO MMO should allow for soloable endgame progression?
Ever?
For all time, every single MMO ever produced MUST follow the forced grouping for end progression paradigm?
Why is it so egregious for at least a few MMOs to have soloable endgame progression?
Like grouping with those who specialize in roles/sub-classes they prefer to play, and know how to socialize (and not only with barn animals). Not the screaming yabbers running their next alt through with crap gear and without care.
And from your comments, I suspect you're not one of them.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
[mod edit]
Truth is MMOs have to force grouping to justify having a MMO genre, otherwise MMOs are solo RPGs or FPS games.
RIFT did something to help though, which I hope other games would pick up on is the ease of grouping; mechanics designed for open public groups; sensible looting (no more ninjaing and loot griefing); random spawn time world bosses; and can turn off PvP (so we don't have the junk WoW has facing world bosses).
Improvements would be scaling the randomized invasions, so small or large groups can get similar challenges (flaw with RIFT's world bosses were the size didn't scale); epic loot can drop, so running them a few times a night has a purpose; pacing small encounters hourly or so, larger invasions (excursions) at 4+ hour intervals; easier means to travel between them.
Soloers would group if there was a reason to group, and on their time table. It's not wasting 3hrs in chat looking for a group, though.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Exactly my point, its all about you, and only you.
The last few MMOs that followed your line of thinking, failed miserably. GW2 is hanging on, but lost many players because there was no reason to even talk to anyone.
If there are so many soloers as you claim, then GW2 would be at full pop constantly, because its a soloers dreamboat.
Sorry pal, you had your chance. The F2P and Solo crowd had the chance to prove they could support a AAA MMO, but it never happened.
This is your opinion of what you think an MMO is. However it is not this by definition or in my opinion.
Its just a game that allows multiple people to play the same game at the same time providing the opportunity to group.
As an example, PvP can be done solo and I have an abundance of targets because it is a MMO.
Not giving you a hard time.
Eve is a great example that provides the opportunity for both in any play style. Its why it is my favorite game.
Your right, there is only 2 ways to make it work.
We do it your way and double everything, all the quests, and all the dungeons, one set for soloers and one set for grouping.
Or, we wait until some company invents a system that can scale players to a dungeon, depending on the size of the group.
Anything less, and one side gets shafted.
Recent MMOs have tried to make it work, like GW2, but they found out that players like to talk to one another....lol
FPS games are also multiplayer, I've grouped up with 4/8 players in those games in PvP
How big are these forced groups to justify the first M in MMO? 200? Is that massive enough?
I am just curious is that grouping so damn not appealing, so not beneficial, that it should be promoted by additional benefits and exclusive rewards in game play. Is participating in group play not rewarding on its own.
Oh, my little one, take another spoon of this wonderful, delicious something and I will reward you with gold and diamonds.
Are those people who want special attention to group play should be lying on the floor in self invoked convulsions shouting: “Give me! Give me! Give me!”
Why to divide play on group or solo on first place? Just make it hard enough for every player. Leave for groups a tactical and strategic advantages though.
Want more complex, more interesting play? What it has to do with that play to be only accessible by groups?