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Wow, devs are having a meltdown?
HerculesSAS
Member Posts: 1,272
Merry Xmas folks, hope you all had a good one.
I came back from a long weekend this morning to catch up on the progress SV is making (or not) with the new patch. I found Andreas Springare (level designer) lodging a huge attack against those folks who are now complaining about the server being down. Link here: www.mortalonline.com/forums/29230-devs-taking-2-weeks-vacation-good-bad-5.html#post648519
Honestly, I can't fault him. As I've said before, and said many, many months ago back when I was trying to be constructive, that the management of the development of this game is atrocious. I've never seen a professional developer position start posting their salary online (apparently he makes 16700 SEK a month), and complaining about their hours. But lack of professionalism aside, I honestly feel bad for the SV dev team. It seems like they work a lot of hours, are severely underpaid, and are being led by a manager (Henrik) who has no management experience whatsoever. It's odd to see somebody like Adrala who was against a lot of my opinions for a long time, now come full circle and agree with me.
If people had expected that beta = feature complete, as I said, then expectations for the developers would be to deliver as such. But in a continual effort to say "Oh they are an indie team!" the standards were lowered, and lowered. Many of us who were lured in by what was put on paper as what the game design was, and then experienced a game world that wasn't even close drew early points to that effect, and were flamed off the forums. It's sad that fanboys have taken a company who is supposed to be providing a service, and has already taken your money to elevate them to a status that they have not yet earned. I suppose that is the wrath of the fanboy.
The sad thing in this case, is that the fanboys were actually believed and any complaints were closed or deleted. I have been watching threads and seeing how MO moderators see people who are upset they paid the money, complaining about the state of the game (rightly so, there is money involved now), and they are banned from the forums, their posts are entirely deleted, so that the conversation can appear to look less negative. Some of the bigger names of people who contribute to the forums obviously have not been deleted, but those that have waited for months in the wings, expecting that eventually the game would come around, are finding themselves banned from posting. It's entertaining, and sad.
All in all, I do think the developers deserve a break. I manage developers myself, and we set vacations after passing milestones. We release something for example, we let users test it, and after a 'settling in' period, we start a vacation rotation. There is no active development at this point either, but we also understand that if we are in this process, that we are still in the alpha stage of the product release. When we finalize our beta build, everybody understands there is no vacation until the product is launched. That's kind of the point of having a beta -- to fix and squash bugs from a fully featured build. The problem is that SV has underdelivered so heavily in their offering that active development is still going on to backlog those things into the game. And now pushing into a holiday, the devs find themselves in a crappy position, while the man leading the charge (Henrik) is giving the okay to push the patch into the beta build -- days before a long holiday, and then allowing a 2 week vacation break. I'm seriously amazed right now, but this is what fanboys have essentially signed up for and continue to defend.
I feel bad for the developers, because all this work and low pay ultimately better have some really good incentives on the horizon in terms of profit sharing, stock options, etc so there's a motivation to work hard like this. But from the financial activity, it looks as if the only beneficiary of the stock and future sales are Henrik and his dad, and a few other main investors. The devs will launch this game, get Henrik to line his pockets, and they will suffer because if the game fails or not, Henrik will have made away with the cash because that's how the board approved the way the game works. My advice to the developers -- put your resume together and get another job before SV taints your resume. At this point, there isn't a black mark on SV because they haven't shipped anything, and if you're not getting a benefit from all this work with horrible pay, then there's no sense in staying on.
Devs, you have my sympathies.
Comments
so they took the same route as rune of magic
delete post,ban the complainer and problem goes away lol
good thing i never went in that game
Seems you are referring to this thread?
www.mortalonline.com/forums/29230-devs-taking-2-weeks-vacation-good-bad.html
That's the one inferno, yea. I honestly understand the complaints because it was a horrible management decision, and I can't fault the developers here because at the end of the day, they are just showing up and doing the work that's expected of them.
The only one to lay blame here is who is in charge of the (mis) management of this game.
often game dev plan the game but not the the how it will be delivered to the client
and when they do think about it its month if not years too late then it tech for network say why didnt you come to us
at first before starting to design the game,and often the response is :TOO COSTLY!
Time to find another game is what it means
I think they can still pull it off eventually (3 - 6 months) but releasing next month is a bad idea IMO.
I think they can still pull it off eventually (3 - 6 months) but releasing next month is a bad idea IMO.
I have already received a refund from my credit card and will not be returning
They had a great plan on paper, but the amount of work involved to deliver that vision of the game was far more than an amateur team could handle. Good management would have dictated "Well, we are making cuts -- you won't see housing, thieving, crafting, etc" and they could have focused on the CORE gameplay. You know, like EVE did.
EVE launched with horrible graphics, a bad UI, and no really great PvE. But they launched with a killer feature -- amazing politics and PvP from the START. That's why people STAYED with EVE, and it grew over time -- because the core of the game was really, really good.
What "killer feature" does MO have? The combat sucks. The magic system is barely functional. The crafting system might get better, but who's gonna craft if all the PvPers leave? There won't be anybody to craft FOR. Again... this is screaming bad management from the beginning, and I pointed it out on the MO forums, and I'm just showing that it manifests itself even more now as time goes on. And people wonder why I think this game is doomed. *shrug*
They had a great plan on paper, but the amount of work involved to deliver that vision of the game was far more than an amateur team could handle. Good management would have dictated "Well, we are making cuts -- you won't see housing, thieving, crafting, etc" and they could have focused on the CORE gameplay. You know, like EVE did.
EVE launched with horrible graphics, a bad UI, and no really great PvE. But they launched with a killer feature -- amazing politics and PvP from the START. That's why people STAYED with EVE, and it grew over time -- because the core of the game was really, really good.
What "killer feature" does MO have? The combat sucks. The magic system is barely functional. The crafting system might get better, but who's gonna craft if all the PvPers leave? There won't be anybody to craft FOR. Again... this is screaming bad management from the beginning, and I pointed it out on the MO forums, and I'm just showing that it manifests itself even more now as time goes on. And people wonder why I think this game is doomed. *shrug*
graphic card and direct x 11 do a lot of the graphical hard work
everquest did that back in the day they banked on the fact people would get new card so graphic would be nice and
it was a good call back then
I think they can still pull it off eventually (3 - 6 months) but releasing next month is a bad idea IMO.
I think more on the course of a year+ to develop a full 'game'. Darkfall was an 'indy' team that put together a game in 8 years. We laugh about it now, because of the long development process, but they in the end -- did deliver a full game. It had a LOT of *working* features. Not just a 'placeholder' system like MO seems to have scattered throughout. DF isn't my cup of tea, and I personally think it's a boring game because of no skill caps and lame PvP combat, but it is a FULL game.
It took the DF team 8 years, and they managed to deliver a real 'beta' -- feature complete. SV is trying to do something more ambitious in terms of 'depth' of gameplay, and trying to do it in less time by obviously overworking all their employees, just so Henrik can stuff his pockets. That's the problem with 'public' companies -- they will sacrifice the longevity of a product as long as in the short term, they can make some cash. That's why the US economy is so screwed up. And by the terms of the agreements that are on SV's website, the box sales for 3 months go to the board of directors -- so it's in their ultimate best interest to ship as many copies as possible. As for the future of the game? I doubt it is very bright, because the first 3 months is when the investors and Henrik will try to make as much money as possible before letting the game itself die off.
If I had the money, I'd buy the art assets for the game because it's mostly well done, and scrap the rest, because to be honest.. it's total crap.
They had a great plan on paper, but the amount of work involved to deliver that vision of the game was far more than an amateur team could handle. Good management would have dictated "Well, we are making cuts -- you won't see housing, thieving, crafting, etc" and they could have focused on the CORE gameplay. You know, like EVE did.
EVE launched with horrible graphics, a bad UI, and no really great PvE. But they launched with a killer feature -- amazing politics and PvP from the START. That's why people STAYED with EVE, and it grew over time -- because the core of the game was really, really good.
What "killer feature" does MO have? The combat sucks. The magic system is barely functional. The crafting system might get better, but who's gonna craft if all the PvPers leave? There won't be anybody to craft FOR. Again... this is screaming bad management from the beginning, and I pointed it out on the MO forums, and I'm just showing that it manifests itself even more now as time goes on. And people wonder why I think this game is doomed. *shrug*
what "killer feature" does MO have?They had a great plan on paper.
you answered to your own question,yes,and the paper is still there,incase your flamethrower is from outer space.
Generation P
The latest patch being completely knackered plus the devs all being on holiday hasn't helped matters much at all but the game still has a shot. I agree that release should be delayed though, as it stands I can't see it being in a proper state of readiness to be released to the public in less than 5 weeks.
Personally I'm hoping they delay until May and hold the open beta may/june before releasing, I don't mind beta testing for a few months if it means we have more chance of success once they do release
I could have an idea on paper to make circuits out of diamonds, but it doesn't mean I can actually deliver on my promise.
The paper can be there -- what they promised on paper is simply not what the team is capable of in any short timeframe. Their main 'feature' was deep combat, in the image of UO mage duels where there was combos, reversals, defensive techniques, offensive techniques, combo breakers, and a lot more. That is what they said during the interviews.
What they have now isn't anything close to that system, and for them to redesign, recode, and redo the entire system to make it work in the way they described it will take a LONG time -- time they don't have, and since the interest seems to be only for the short term well... I would worry about those that are investing, especially if they offer (and they will!) yearly gaming subscriptions, or 6 months, etc.
Just be careful with your money now, especially if you've invested.
While i agree with the rest of your posts, this comparison isn't a good one; for one thing, Aventurine had to develop an entirely new game engine from scratch for Darkfall.
SV is taking full benefit of the Unreal engine, so a good part of time invested in that field is saved for them.
Hate that I wasted time following this game when I could have been playing other MMOs
While i agree with the rest of your posts, this comparison isn't a good one; for one thing, Aventurine had to develop an entirely new game engine from scratch for Darkfall.
SV is taking full benefit of the Unreal engine, so a good part of time invested in that field is saved for them.
Agreed on that point, but 8 years vs barely 2? I mean, even without the engine development there's a LOT more to a game than just the rendering, shadows, etc.
It was a smart move to buy the license the engine, but it still doesn't mean they can deliver a stellar game in 2 years with few developers, and little to no experience on the team.
I could give you a BMW V12 engine from the McLaren F1, and it would be a LOT of the work done -- but in order to build a car with it, it would still take you more time than an experienced team. The engine just makes the car (game) "go" -- it still needs a suspension to turn, steering, brakes, etc in order to actually function. And even if you put all those things in, it doesn't mean they will work well. It takes a LOT to create a whole product that functions and works, and just because you have one important piece doesn't mean that the rest of it comes along without experience and knowledge to make it work as a whole.
I could have an idea on paper to make circuits out of diamonds, but it doesn't mean I can actually deliver on my promise.
The paper can be there -- what they promised on paper is simply not what the team is capable of in any short timeframe. Their main 'feature' was deep combat, in the image of UO mage duels where there was combos, reversals, defensive techniques, offensive techniques, combo breakers, and a lot more. That is what they said during the interviews.
What they have now isn't anything close to that system, and for them to redesign, recode, and redo the entire system to make it work in the way they described it will take a LONG time -- time they don't have, and since the interest seems to be only for the short term well... I would worry about those that are investing, especially if they offer (and they will!) yearly gaming subscriptions, or 6 months, etc.
Just be careful with your money now, especially if you've invested.
I bought Darkfall 6 months sub and Mortal Online same time pretty much
and I play Mortal Online Beta and I am not even touching Darkfall(played 30 hours or so and I found too many flaws)
Why?
Because even in Beta MO is just so good game.
and best thing in their promises is,they have vision,cant care less if they cant provide everything,even in Beta.
Generation P
I could have an idea on paper to make circuits out of diamonds, but it doesn't mean I can actually deliver on my promise.
The paper can be there -- what they promised on paper is simply not what the team is capable of in any short timeframe. Their main 'feature' was deep combat, in the image of UO mage duels where there was combos, reversals, defensive techniques, offensive techniques, combo breakers, and a lot more. That is what they said during the interviews.
What they have now isn't anything close to that system, and for them to redesign, recode, and redo the entire system to make it work in the way they described it will take a LONG time -- time they don't have, and since the interest seems to be only for the short term well... I would worry about those that are investing, especially if they offer (and they will!) yearly gaming subscriptions, or 6 months, etc.
Just be careful with your money now, especially if you've invested.
I bought Darkfall 6 months sub and Mortal Online same time pretty much
and I play Mortal Online Beta and I am not even touching Darkfall(played 30 hours or so and I found too many flaws)
Why?
Because even in Beta MO is just so good game.
and best thing in their promises is,they have vision,cant care less if they cant provide everything,even in Beta.
That is the basic example of a fanboy.
If you are unwilling to tell SV their faults, then when the game winds up crashing and burning, you'll have nowhere to look but in the mirror. I feel bad that there are so many of your types that are essentially ruining the developer's thoughts to think that what they are doing is actually any good.
Than get to it and stop wasting our times on the forums with posts that don't matter.
That is the basic example of a fanboy.
If you are unwilling to tell SV their faults, then when the game winds up crashing and burning, you'll have nowhere to look but in the mirror. I feel bad that there are so many of your types that are essentially ruining the developer's thoughts to think that what they are doing is actually any good.
People like that make me sick. I hate when people say that the basic PVP, css knife fights, is better than all other mmos out there.
Incompetent people that kill games are fanboys Screw em
LOL @ Hercules!
I am not making any circle nor do i agree with you.
I am just questioning that decision of theirs to release the patch expecting it to go without problems and leave for a vacation.
Of course I am just speculating what could have made Henrik or whoever is in charge to make this decision.
I dont have the full picture. There might be other things involved.
While you have confessed you hope SV fails and have no idea of the game mechanics, I myself hope that SV succeeds and think MO has great potential and that even in its current state it surpases in gameplay a lot of other mmo titles.
While you try hard to display SV as bunch of inapt guys maaking a failure game in their basement, I believe in their idea, enjoy the game so far and being a realist (not a hater) I realise that this project is bound to have a lot of problems...all this does not stop me to point at an issue where I think there is one....at the same time you bash the game, the devs, the CEO and his father without being able to give them credit for anything that does not suit your crusade against SV....
I guess thats the difference between a mature person and a kid that got "insulted" on the internet
Merry Christmas!
I could have an idea on paper to make circuits out of diamonds, but it doesn't mean I can actually deliver on my promise.
The paper can be there -- what they promised on paper is simply not what the team is capable of in any short timeframe. Their main 'feature' was deep combat, in the image of UO mage duels where there was combos, reversals, defensive techniques, offensive techniques, combo breakers, and a lot more. That is what they said during the interviews.
What they have now isn't anything close to that system, and for them to redesign, recode, and redo the entire system to make it work in the way they described it will take a LONG time -- time they don't have, and since the interest seems to be only for the short term well... I would worry about those that are investing, especially if they offer (and they will!) yearly gaming subscriptions, or 6 months, etc.
Just be careful with your money now, especially if you've invested.
I bought Darkfall 6 months sub and Mortal Online same time pretty much
and I play Mortal Online Beta and I am not even touching Darkfall(played 30 hours or so and I found too many flaws)
Why?
Because even in Beta MO is just so good game.
and best thing in their promises is,they have vision,cant care less if they cant provide everything,even in Beta.
That is the basic example of a fanboy.
If you are unwilling to tell SV their faults, then when the game winds up crashing and burning, you'll have nowhere to look but in the mirror. I feel bad that there are so many of your types that are essentially ruining the developer's thoughts to think that what they are doing is actually any good.
Fanboy?so many of my types?
sorry master Sigmund Freud of the internet but I like Roleplaying games with working Rules and Laws
and Star Vault is atleast trying,even in paper their game is doing extremely good service to the whole genre.
Generation P
That is a stupid statement many other games out better than MO css knife fight
You agreed with the main point I was making though, that "beta was flawed from the beginning". Just really making that point.
I don't think the game is irreperable. I think they need to make some hard choices in order to have a successful launch, and one that stretches out with longevity, not just the three months that entitles Henrik and his father (this is just a simple fact) to make money. Now if you call that an attack well, that's fine -- I think it's an accurate picture of what is going on. The "xmas sale" to entice more sales, and you'll see things like a yearly subscription, 6 month, etc as well -- the focus right now is on the short term. Are they a bunch of inept guys making a game? Not exactly -- they are a bunch of inexperienced guys, led by an even MORE inexperienced guy to make a game. It's not impossible but in the scope they promise, and the time in which they want to deliver, given their experience level -- it's going to be a very difficult task.
Do I hope SV succeeds? No, I don't. And it's not because of beta forums, or whatever else you may think, but you're free to join Gobwar in making personal attacks against me. I hope they fail because it's an indication of how the MMO industry and companies within it use their position to take advantage of customers, as SV has done. Promise the world, pay up front, and we'll deliver way less on launch. Sorry, I don't really believe in rewarding behavior that is basically unethical in order to get a few bucks. Global Agenda is an "indy" MMO, and they've met everything they said they would, and also released an *unpaid* beta, as well as a 'feature complete' beta. Sure, it's instanced and a different game -- but that is the difference between a company who is well managed and organized to SV. I bought Global Agenda for that reason, and I've waited well until I saw that they actually delivered what they promised to. SV does not deserve that business until they can actually deliver what they promised. And as they have my money, and countless others -- I think there is some amount of accountability needed, even if you 'believe' in their vision. I can be supportive, but also not giving money away as charity.
That is the basic example of a fanboy.
If you are unwilling to tell SV their faults, then when the game winds up crashing and burning, you'll have nowhere to look but in the mirror. I feel bad that there are so many of your types that are essentially ruining the developer's thoughts to think that what they are doing is actually any good.
People like that make me sick. I hate when people say that the basic PVP, css knife fights, is better than all other mmos out there.
Incompetent people that kill games are fanboys Screw em
That is a stupid statement many other games out better than MO css knife fight
Someday you hopefully understand that there might be a Reason behind why to swing that knife.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizard_of_Wor is propably better example than CSS
why to kill someone and why not and when.
the Reason.
Wizard of Wor is a lot better mmorpg than 99% on the market,why?
because it gives you Reasons.
Generation P