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Questions for the hardcore, old school roleplayers.
Gurzo
Member Posts: 13
What's the game that did roleplay best in your opinion? What features would you like to see in a MMORPG that caters specifically to roleplayers?
Comments
GM run events, by GMs that roleplay.
Everquest (for online, that is. D&D offline).
Stinging death penalty + challening and dynamic PVE gameplay almost insure heightened immersion and tigher community as you learn to rely on others for mutual survival. This sort of gameplay does build bonds.
If a game is too easy and if the penalty for failure is mildly inconvenient at best, then there is really no reason to even talk to another player and even their presence becomes an annoyance. (i.e., WOW)
Everquest (for online, that is. D&D offline).
Stinging death penalty + challening and dynamic PVE gameplay almost insure heightened immersion and tigher community as you learn to rely on others for mutual survival. This sort of gameplay does build bonds.
If a game is too easy and if the penalty for failure is mildly inconvenient at best, then there is really no reason to even talk to another player and even their presence becomes an annoyance. (i.e., WOW)
Only true for some people. For many others a harsh death penalty kills immersion flat out.
As far as the socializing bit, that is also purely a matter of opinion. Many people do not consider 'forced socializing' to be real socializing. If you have a good reason to talk to another player then you will do so even if the game does not 'make you'. Teh easiest way to kill roleplaying is to try to force the players to act in a way that they do not agree with.
Everquest (for online, that is. D&D offline).
Stinging death penalty + challening and dynamic PVE gameplay almost insure heightened immersion and tigher community as you learn to rely on others for mutual survival. This sort of gameplay does build bonds.
If a game is too easy and if the penalty for failure is mildly inconvenient at best, then there is really no reason to even talk to another player and even their presence becomes an annoyance. (i.e., WOW)
Only true for some people. For many others a harsh death penalty kills immersion flat out.
As far as the socializing bit, that is also purely a matter of opinion. Many people do not consider 'forced socializing' to be real socializing. If you have a good reason to talk to another player then you will do so even if the game does not 'make you'. Teh easiest way to kill roleplaying is to try to force the players to act in a way that they do not agree with.
I do not believe that a stinging death penalty "kills immersion" for anyone. Now you may find folks who are so carebearish that they slam their keyboards when they die and incur such a penalty, but to say the penalty "kills immersion" is just nonsense. The more realistic a game is (i.e, dying hurts), the more immersed folks are.
In fact, the counter argument that "minimal penalty for dying" kills immersion is much more substantive. Just how "immersive" is it when a character dies on purpose just to port to a graveyard close to the town he was journeying to anyway? Not very immersive at all.
And as far as the socializing goes, this really falls into two categories:
1. Socializing out of choice (i.e., talking just to be talking. Nothing wrong with this.)
2. Socializing out of necessity (i.e., I need to talk to this person to discuss teaming up for mutual survival)
In games with a minimal death penalty, you mostly have #1 going on, and "path-of-least-resistance" players do not often do even that. In games with a harsher death penalty, both 1 and 2 happen; therefore "more" socialization.
Example: In EQ's harsh gameworld, I can remember folks I grouped with 9 years ago. 9 years! But in WOW, I cannot tell you who I grouped with the other night.
Now, you talk about "forced" socialization. There is nothing "forced" in my points, but there is a lot of "forced" going on in those stupid instanced chain quests that WOW has, where people stand by like captive audiences and twiddle their thumbs while waiting for the Lich King's rant to end so they can get on with a quest.
Sorry, but your points are all wrong.
I'm so macho, when my toon dies, I want someone to show up at my door and punch me in the gut.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
What's the game that did roleplay best in your opinion? What features would you like to see in a MMORPG that caters specifically to roleplayers?
-----------------
Answer: No MMO to date has done RP effectively.
Why? Because in order to do roleplaying effectively your environment matters more than the character itself.
A well designed roleplaying game will have the following:
No game to date includes all of these features. And its likely no game will, ever.
Laudanum - Romance. Revenge. Revolution.
Crappy, petty people breed and raise crappy, petty kids.
A stinging death penalty is less about delivering grief upon players and more about making them into more cautiousness and better players while enhancing their immersion.
If you were to do some math on MMO design, then perhaps you might have the following:
Dying with stinging death penalty = 10 on the Grief scale (whatever that may be, just assume for a moment there is one)
Dying with mild death penalty = 2 on the Grief scale (more of a mild annoyance)
Now, with the first model, you die less because you play better. Let's say you die only once during a game month. With the second model, dying is not such a big deal, maybe even an advantage because you can reform at a spot closer to town, so you play more boldly and carelessly, so let's say you die 5 times during that same game month.
First model (harsh death penalty) = 10 Grief x 1 incident = 10 on the Grief scale
Second model (mild death penalty) = 2 Grief x 5 incidents = 10 on the Grief scale
Therefore, we could be left with the same overall impact in terms of "grief" from dying. However, what does vary is the lessened immersion and sense of accomplishment experienced with the 2nd Model. Games with harsh death penalties certainly deliver more in terms of satisfactory gameplay (when you are not dying) than games that freely hand out rewards (i.e. welfare epics, low risks, etc...).
Conclusion: A stinging death penalty is almost the cornerstone of an immersive MMORPG.
I agree with all of the above, except that "Player vs Player in all areas" could be replaced by "challenging and dynamic PVE content in all areas" for those more of the PVE bent.
While PVP tends to be exciting, I have noticed that it overshadows PVE content too much; folks are watching over their shoulders instead of taking in the world.
UO has the best core design for roleplaying. If someone were to take UO’s core design and expand on it, it would cream all these class pos we have. Features I would like to see classless, item destruction, useful crafting system, more emphasis on character development vs items, player housing, slower progression and more non combat skills.
Agreed. Not only is the game designed to allow players to effectively take up a role in the game world, but the tools are there to allow the players to manipulate the world around them to build the environments that suit their roleplay. In UO's earlier years, There were both paid and volunteer content teams that ran shard-specific story arcs and a major story arcs on a regular basis. In addition to that, there was a good amount of support for player events and player venues.
Like SWG, UO houses are a clean slate, which the player can customize to make a fort, city hall, prison, farmland, workshop or whatever they want. UO also allowed players to write on books and paper in the game world, facilitating the creation of libraries of tales and stories as well as other uses such as secret notes, raffle tickets or anything else the players could come up with. UO allowed players to quickly recall to almost anywehre in the game world, making it easier for roleplayers to congregate and coordinate their events.
UO allowed players to customize their look and maintain a look. If your character always uses [weapon], you can always have some kind of [weapon] and be viable in combat. DAoC offers that to a degree, as does AC and other earlier MMOs, but such a roleplayed choice is not possible in newer MMOs. Some, however, have added cosmetic panels to facilitate such cosmetic decisions.
UO also offered overhead text and range/distance to speech - a player near you can hear you whisper but others cannot. Players in a room with a closed door can hear each other but people on the other side of the door cannot. There is also collision detection.* The importance of these is that it makes players cognizant of presence and proximity of other players. There is a level of immersion that an IRC-style chat box in the lower left of your screen simly can't compare with.
* let's see who the first one is to cry about griefing and evil mean bad people touching them in the wrong places.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Having a stinging death penalty is just going to keep most players from taking any risks whatsoever. If I knew that I stood to loose serious gear/gold/XP if I died, or especially if I'd lose my character as some people seem to want permadeath, I'd never leave the house. However, without risk, there is no reward and without reward, there is no advancement, making the whole MMO model obsolete. The whole reason for having a low death penalty is to keep people pushing forward into new areas, getting new stuff and ever-increasing levels.
Unless you want a game where everyone huddles in the corner, the last thing we need is a harsh death penalty.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Death penalties in newer MMO's are too wimped out. Crank it up a bit.
I think roleplaying is based on two things
Choice and Story
Specifically choices that affect the story. If you have just story but not choice that is just a story based game. Just choice but not story and that is some sort of sim game, because making swords and roleplaying a smith are two different things. So you need both to be roleplaying.
You can roleplay with other people by making up a story but that doesn't happen much in any game and is largely independent of game mechanics. But you can also roleplay by interacting with the game, much like Fallout 3 or Dragon Age.
At that rate I can't think of any game where I felt like I was roleplaying. That might change with SW:TOR since they are going to have a story you can influence.
Other things like realistic environments, character customization and the like is really just fluff, good fluff that can really immerse you in a game, but still fluff and does not roleplaying make. Just like things like death penalty, it is just a game style preference, but it does not contribute to roleplaying, only immersion, if you like it that is.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Story? A linear story? Sort of reminds me of the "Adventure Books" in the early 1990's and late 1980's. "If you choose to leave the room, go to page 39, if you choose to remain in the room, go to page 57, if you choose..." Well, you get the picture.
"Story" in an MMO is very contrived and very limiting. You get more adventure out of just dropping players into a game world and turning them loose. The modern MMO thought of placing players into instances to follow pre-scripted storyline quests is bunk and will soon fade from gaming (we hope).
"IMMERSION" gets you into your character and enhances roleplaying. Stinging death penalty, hard-earned rewards, night-day cycles, weather, city faction, and stuff like that "immerse" you into your character by making you feel.
Story? A linear story? Sort of reminds me of the "Adventure Books" in the early 1990's and late 1980's. "If you choose to leave the room, go to page 39, if you choose to remain in the room, go to page 57, if you choose..." Well, you get the picture.
"Story" in an MMO is very contrived and very limiting. You get more adventure out of just dropping players into a game world and turning them loose. The modern MMO thought of placing players into instances to follow pre-scripted storyline quests is bunk and will soon fade from gaming (we hope).
"IMMERSION" gets you into your character and enhances roleplaying. Stinging death penalty, hard-earned rewards, night-day cycles, weather, city faction, and stuff like that "immerse" you into your character by making you feel.
Stories do not have to be linear, infact you can't roleplay a linear story anyway. The story type needed for RPGs isn't something passively told to you rather something you actively shape. But without story there is no roleplay. Just letting players go in a world with no story means killing things is about getting loot or to level up and that is not roleplaying, that is metagaming. Same thing for adventure, without a reason to adventure beyond game mechanics, there isn't much adventure to be had.
To roleplay your actions need motivations beyond pure game mechanics, the difference between killing a monster to get loot ad killing it because you are a demon slayer that protects people from evil creatures, though the loot is nice too. The game just has to give you reasons to behave like demon hunter. Granted there are games with story but they do not let you affect it much nor do they make story relavant, usually it is just inquest dialog nobody reads.
Immersion is nice and should be the frosting on the cake but immersion does produce a story. I guess people could make their own but that is very unlikely plus it would be entirely imaginary so that is kind of lame.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Death penalties in newer MMO's are too wimped out. Crank it up a bit.
Why? It'll just result in what I've already described. A whole lot of people doing nothing and eventually, going to play a different game where risk doesn't result in massive loss. If you're not going to take a risk, why play at all?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
UO is the best MMO for RP, period. All of the things listed here by dar_es_balat are included and functioning features on a strictly quality RP, free UO shard I play on, aside from penalties due to weather. Weather exists and changes based on seasons, but there's currently little effect on players other than a good RP'er knowing how to react through emotes and actions if their playing a character in certain weather scenarios.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Not everyone plays MMOs for the same reason. Many people will play the same game for multiple reasons. Sometimes they log in to go PvPing and other times they just want to chat in vent while they bake bread.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Not everyone plays MMOs for the same reason. Many people will play the same game for multiple reasons. Sometimes they log in to go PvPing and other times they just want to chat in vent while they bake bread.
A lot of that could be done in a free chatroom, it certainly doesn't require a subscription-fee based game to sit around and socialize and hang out with friends. However, for the rest, since in most MMOs you cannot really progress without combat and we're talking about making combat harder and more dangerous, the question remains. If you're not going to take the risk of losing everything by going into combat, then you cannot progress, get XP, massacre anything, etc. You can sit around and chat with your friends, which seems a bit silly if you're paying MMO fees for the privilege.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Yes, scary how UO got so many features right and instead of improving on them often tried to remove it and streamline gameplay.
No MMO is doing that good, Neverwinter night was the best multiplayer RPG in my opinion.
But there is a few points I would want to change.
* Better AI, mobs and bosses shouldn't act the same way in all situations. When you can do an encounter in a specific way to ace it the AI is too bad, the mobs should react on what you do. Tanking is also something stupid, mobs should act more like humans.
* Better endgame. Then endgame should be about more than just raiding or RvR. Player created Guildcitys and an economy that the guilds themselves run (including minting their own coins). Crafting also needs to become a lot better.
* Better quests. I tired of killing 10 rats, does Conan, Rand or Aragorn ever do menial stuff like that? Quests should be long, epic and well written, not boring grind, I can do that without a quest for it.
* Gear vs skill vs character abilities. This could be made better to lessen the grind. Make gear less important and stop forcing people to change the basic armor, it is fine to let people get cooler stuff but to change armor every few days makes no sense, the chainmail wont suddenly become useless after a few days.
* More customization. Todays classes makes no character unique or even close to it. Most classes exist in 2 or possible 3 different version. At least add a few skills I can pick myself, preferably from one exclusive list for the class and another general list.
* Make dungeons more interesting. In classic RPGs a dungeon have a lots of traps, riddles and you are forced to climb, jump and being careful. MMO dungeons are just about fighting and while that should be a part of it there should be more. Get the theif back to disarm traps instead of just backstab and sneak.
* A few roleplaying skills added for fun doesn't hurt. All skills doesn't need to be useful, a few skills for each class that are just there to be fun spices things up a bit.
* Stop being so predictable. I hate when you always can figure out what is going in like in a american movie, surprise me sometimes.
* How come I always know what everything is worth and what abilities something have? Put back bardic lore and appraising into the game.
That is a few points, there are more things but my post would just become to large. I been playing RPG games since late '84.
Hmm, you should try Guildwars, it is not in class with Dragon age storywise but is does have a good story compared to most MMOs and at least some choices.
AoC tried to do this too but mostly you can say a lot of different things but what you say doesn't really matter in most cases. In the few cases is does however it is fun.
Honestly, Loke, you probably had some good points there, but the fruity text made it difficult to read and I stopped after a few lines. I'm probably not the only one.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
LotRO
And a good RP game needs
- many well implemented socializing possibilities (emotes, drink, dance, music, taverns, housing, stages, etc)
that's it, you don't need more for improvised theater, the rest can happen in your mind (like it does in any PnP RPG)
M