How is it that everyone posting in this thread managed to either take the OP as joking....or turn it into something about role played factions? I think he was SERIOUS...and I think he meant along the lines of racism from an OUT of game perspective.
I will say this....I have made several black characters, because I think it lends to variety in games that seem almost EXCLUSIVELY filled with pink pasty character avatars (or purple, or blue, or green...but seldom black, unless they have fur). And I have had people ASK me, "Are you black in real life? I mean...not that it would MATTER....." So uhm...yeah, then why did you ask me? So yes....I think racism exists everywhere. People still "see" skin color. Even I see it....when I notice how predominantly "white" characters tend to be, and then want to make darker skinned humans, because it seems so imbalanced to me.
Would be great if the world was color-blind (at least in regards to judging BY color of skin), but I don't think it is just yet.
Really...MMOs are a microcosm of the real world, after all. The populations probably reflect the same sort of diversity we have out of game, we just don't SEE (with our physical eyes) what each other looks like all the time.
If I saw a black character in game, I'd sure as hell ask if he/she was black in real life. Why? Because it's a fucking question. I'm curious. If he's black, he's black. We all "see" skin color, of course. That's unavoidable. But in today's world, (some) people throw around "racist" way too often without understanding what it really is.
Again, I reiterate: Racism is either a) the belief of one race that they are superior to another race, or b) prejudice/discrimination by one race against other race(s). Racism is not asking a black character if he's black in real life.
Again....
What DIFFERENCE does it make what color my skin is in real life? You're curious? Why? Does it matter? And if it doesn't matter....why do you want to know?
I guess I don't get it. I'm not saying that asking, in and of itself, is racist at all.....I just don't understand the desire to know if it makes absolutely no difference....
So if I ask you where you got your shirt that I like, it's suspicious? Do you think I'm gonna steal it? Really? Why does it matter where you got it, right?
Perhaps I'm asking if he/she is black in real life so I can construct an accurate picture of him/her when I add him/her to my friends or ignore list? If they don't want to answer, I'm not going to bother them about it.
I'm glad you're not saying it's racist. I just get annoyed when the word is thrown around all willy-nilly these days. Fortunately, there seems to be some rational posters on this third page, so not all hope is lost, eh?
As others have posted, as long as there are people involved there will be racism. In game "structured" racism is ok if done with lore etc (the orc raided this village and killed my family, orcs are evil, kill them all for me and I'll give you shinies) but the real racism brought to the game by players needs to be fought and denounced.
I quit a guild that changed all of their guild ranks into kkk ranks... The officers who did this thought it was funny until we found out one of our guild mates was black, from the south. It was a "joke" to them but not to others.
I've noticed when I play lotro that my darker toned hunter gets flirted with more than my pale white champion.
This has been the case ever since I created my hunter. Strangers tend to be nicer to him than my champion in general. I would say in this case the darker toned character gets preferential treatment, when in my OPINION all my characters should be treated equally, on the basis of my skills and friendliness when interacting with others. It boggles me to this day why strangers would prefer one over the other, but it is what it is.
Other than that, when I played on a role playing server a long time ago I had an undead warlock. People would say he was evil and deserved harsh punishment for his sins against Nature. I never paid much attention because it was an RP server and that's what they were supposed to do.
Racism exist within people so wherever they go racism goes. I play a dark skinned character in Fallen earth. Yesterday a guy told me that i must be very greasy and smell bad since my character has black skin.
Was he right?
What do you think? you don't think thats being racist?
You took my question of "Was he right?" the wrong way. I was asking if he really was greasy and smelly in real life? I was wondering if the guys assumption was correct.
I just make it a point to hate everyone equally :P
I think the designer at soe that made the original eq1 erudites was a bit of a racist though. He gave them all sorts of big ass shiney heads and made them weak as hell.......
So if I ask you where you got your shirt that I like, it's suspicious? Do you think I'm gonna steal it? Really? Why does it matter where you got it, right?
Perhaps I'm asking if he/she is black in real life so I can construct an accurate picture of him/her when I add him/her to my friends or ignore list? If they don't want to answer, I'm not going to bother them about it.
I'm glad you're not saying it's racist. I just get annoyed when the word is thrown around all willy-nilly these days. Fortunately, there seems to be some rational posters on this third page, so not all hope is lost, eh?
Okay, now THAT reason....I can understand. I do like to have a mental picture of someone I'm having a great time playing a game with. I have been with a couple of guilds I'm in for many years, and it's really fun to post RL images in our guild forums and actually SEE our online friends. After a few years, these people really do become friends, to the point that you probably know how many kids they have, what their real names are, what jobs they do, etc.
Sometimes it's just interesting to know all the different countries of the world that the members of your guild/corp come from. My EVE corp is based out of Canada, and we have members from USA, UK, Germany, Romania, Australia, and Brazil. It can be very helpful to know who's who, and who's on at what time.
Personally it's irrelevant to me what colour skin they have, I'm just curious as to where they are from.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
It only exists if you let it...like real life. The morons who talk about it, make it real. More real than it should be today. Some go out of there way to be racist. But they aren't even worth noticing anymore. Somehow people still notice and just have to respond....
/shakes head
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Probably the only two MMOs that I've been in which stressed racial identity as important were SWG and EVE.
In SWG, I played a rodian (the race that Greedo came from). I used it as a roleplaying device, saying things like "aint no place for the green man in the white stormtrooper's Empire." I formed the Foundation for Rodian Identity, Liberty, Language, and Society (F.R.I.L.L.S.), and it became something of a roleplaying device. Others there made Wookee cultural museums, and species became an important part of the roleplay.
EVE supports cultural identity, but there aren't many opportunities to express it as a roleplaying device, besides on broadcast chat and some player orgs. Still, as Amarr we would quote scripture to each other, and as Minmatar we would talk about liberation.
Raciasm within the context of the game lore can be useful as a way to identify with one's character. Real life racism using the game as a prextext to say something about the real world, however, has no place.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
There will always be a degree of racism in every walk of life, because we have a need to break down massive amounts of people into groups, sub groups and so fore...On top of that people tend to blame others for their own failings or fears...
And on top of all that we as a species are still divide by notions of spirtualism and polictical views let alone colour of skin..The reason I am told is we are still programmed to respond to small family or tribal groups and in modern society we tend to lose our social identy so we make some up, or latch onto things like sport etc etc, same in games, while you got X race againest Y race its just pixel racism LOL.
Also we do tend to need something to hate, create our own boogeymen as it were, just look at recent history. Governments still make you believe in the boogeymen as fear wins votes faster than kissing babies and being nice.
The only form of racism that exists in MMOs is that which people bring to the table.
I have to agree with this, although I'm sure players will swear they're only doing it to stick with the almighty 'canon'.
SWG is actually an extermely good example (without getting into the Germany part of it). In the beginning unless you were a human everything cost more faction points for the other species and for the longest time the art department couldn't fit non-human / zabrak heads into ST helmets. Then they changed the cost's, made it so everyone could wear the ST helmet etc..... SOE changed things to make those that wished to play the Empire more accessible no matter what your species was. For them (and it must have been with Lucas's OK) canon had changed for the game enviroment.
Not really any racism there as the original game plan was following the movies.
Fast forward to the Starsider RP'er's. The real hardcore, you can't play in my game unless you follow my rules types (I'm not tarring all RP'er's with the same brush, just those that I've described). For them it was very much the human way or no way, even if their toon's didn't follow canon as with a Female human Imperial Officer toon.
Now the defense was of course; you can't play since alien Imp's aren't canon, but as they didn't follow canon you really have to ask how much of the racism was a carry over from the outside world?
I think Warhammer did a great job of playing up the racial animosities between the Order and Chaos factions. I always loved the Orc NPCs talk about how it was time to "smash them stunties!"
I also believe AOC reflected a bit of racism when it came to Stygian questlines, as in the lore the Stygians considered themselves racially superior to everyone else and would not allow other cultures to even visit their home city.
racism and nazism isnt the samething you know. and I believe its hard to talk about racism in a game that is played and made by the players. That is becuse I dont believe any game developer want to have that kind of stuff in their game becuse of the bad publicity and such. But I know that we players can make a game quite racist if we want to.The tools are already there with the fraction wars between some fantasy humanoids,
In AoC there is RP racism, because it fits in with the lore... I RP a Cimmerian character, and the only players I kill just to kill are Stygians, simply because it fits our RPing...
I'll bite. What is it about Stygians that makes you want to kill them all? Every one of them being unexceptionable because? What do you gain by killing them, or lose by not killing them?
Why do you do what you're told?
Okay, so this will sound weird/lame/extremely nerdy...but...
In Conan lore, Stygians are loyal to the god Set...Set is considered an Arch Demon to the Hyborian kingdoms, and Set usually has cults of evil sorcerers who sacrifice the innocent to please their god...
While RPing in AoC, we have made the Cult of Set our enemy...this includes all Stygians...Now I didn't say I kill EVERY Stygian, and I don't gank lowbie Stygians, but I do kill Stygians when I'm with my fellow RPers...and sometimes when I'm alone and feel like getting into some random PvP...
We only gain RP satisfaction by killing them, and lose nothing by not killing them...
and I'm only doing what the lore is telling us to do...kinda...it sounds kinda lame now that I'm having to explain it, but it's just RP...that's just something that we do...weird lore-based stuff...
PLAYING: NOTHING!!! PLAYED:FFXI, LotRO, AoC, WAR, DDO, Megaten, Wurm, Rohan, Mabinogi, RoM
Comments
If I saw a black character in game, I'd sure as hell ask if he/she was black in real life. Why? Because it's a fucking question. I'm curious. If he's black, he's black. We all "see" skin color, of course. That's unavoidable. But in today's world, (some) people throw around "racist" way too often without understanding what it really is.
Again, I reiterate: Racism is either a) the belief of one race that they are superior to another race, or b) prejudice/discrimination by one race against other race(s). Racism is not asking a black character if he's black in real life.
Again....
What DIFFERENCE does it make what color my skin is in real life? You're curious? Why? Does it matter? And if it doesn't matter....why do you want to know?
I guess I don't get it. I'm not saying that asking, in and of itself, is racist at all.....I just don't understand the desire to know if it makes absolutely no difference....
So if I ask you where you got your shirt that I like, it's suspicious? Do you think I'm gonna steal it? Really? Why does it matter where you got it, right?
Perhaps I'm asking if he/she is black in real life so I can construct an accurate picture of him/her when I add him/her to my friends or ignore list? If they don't want to answer, I'm not going to bother them about it.
I'm glad you're not saying it's racist. I just get annoyed when the word is thrown around all willy-nilly these days. Fortunately, there seems to be some rational posters on this third page, so not all hope is lost, eh?
Nothing good will come of this thread.
As others have posted, as long as there are people involved there will be racism. In game "structured" racism is ok if done with lore etc (the orc raided this village and killed my family, orcs are evil, kill them all for me and I'll give you shinies) but the real racism brought to the game by players needs to be fought and denounced.
I quit a guild that changed all of their guild ranks into kkk ranks... The officers who did this thought it was funny until we found out one of our guild mates was black, from the south. It was a "joke" to them but not to others.
Skaroth
See the violence inherent in the system!
I've noticed when I play lotro that my darker toned hunter gets flirted with more than my pale white champion.
This has been the case ever since I created my hunter. Strangers tend to be nicer to him than my champion in general. I would say in this case the darker toned character gets preferential treatment, when in my OPINION all my characters should be treated equally, on the basis of my skills and friendliness when interacting with others. It boggles me to this day why strangers would prefer one over the other, but it is what it is.
Other than that, when I played on a role playing server a long time ago I had an undead warlock. People would say he was evil and deserved harsh punishment for his sins against Nature. I never paid much attention because it was an RP server and that's what they were supposed to do.
Was he right?
What do you think? you don't think thats being racist?
You took my question of "Was he right?" the wrong way. I was asking if he really was greasy and smelly in real life? I was wondering if the guys assumption was correct.
I just make it a point to hate everyone equally :P
I think the designer at soe that made the original eq1 erudites was a bit of a racist though. He gave them all sorts of big ass shiney heads and made them weak as hell.......
So if I ask you where you got your shirt that I like, it's suspicious? Do you think I'm gonna steal it? Really? Why does it matter where you got it, right?
Perhaps I'm asking if he/she is black in real life so I can construct an accurate picture of him/her when I add him/her to my friends or ignore list? If they don't want to answer, I'm not going to bother them about it.
I'm glad you're not saying it's racist. I just get annoyed when the word is thrown around all willy-nilly these days. Fortunately, there seems to be some rational posters on this third page, so not all hope is lost, eh?
Okay, now THAT reason....I can understand. I do like to have a mental picture of someone I'm having a great time playing a game with. I have been with a couple of guilds I'm in for many years, and it's really fun to post RL images in our guild forums and actually SEE our online friends. After a few years, these people really do become friends, to the point that you probably know how many kids they have, what their real names are, what jobs they do, etc.
So yeah....I can get it, from that example.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
this is generally how i feel on this subject.
Sometimes it's just interesting to know all the different countries of the world that the members of your guild/corp come from. My EVE corp is based out of Canada, and we have members from USA, UK, Germany, Romania, Australia, and Brazil. It can be very helpful to know who's who, and who's on at what time.
Personally it's irrelevant to me what colour skin they have, I'm just curious as to where they are from.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
It only exists if you let it...like real life. The morons who talk about it, make it real. More real than it should be today. Some go out of there way to be racist. But they aren't even worth noticing anymore. Somehow people still notice and just have to respond....
/shakes head
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Probably the only two MMOs that I've been in which stressed racial identity as important were SWG and EVE.
In SWG, I played a rodian (the race that Greedo came from). I used it as a roleplaying device, saying things like "aint no place for the green man in the white stormtrooper's Empire." I formed the Foundation for Rodian Identity, Liberty, Language, and Society (F.R.I.L.L.S.), and it became something of a roleplaying device. Others there made Wookee cultural museums, and species became an important part of the roleplay.
EVE supports cultural identity, but there aren't many opportunities to express it as a roleplaying device, besides on broadcast chat and some player orgs. Still, as Amarr we would quote scripture to each other, and as Minmatar we would talk about liberation.
Raciasm within the context of the game lore can be useful as a way to identify with one's character. Real life racism using the game as a prextext to say something about the real world, however, has no place.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
There will always be a degree of racism in every walk of life, because we have a need to break down massive amounts of people into groups, sub groups and so fore...On top of that people tend to blame others for their own failings or fears...
And on top of all that we as a species are still divide by notions of spirtualism and polictical views let alone colour of skin..The reason I am told is we are still programmed to respond to small family or tribal groups and in modern society we tend to lose our social identy so we make some up, or latch onto things like sport etc etc, same in games, while you got X race againest Y race its just pixel racism LOL.
Also we do tend to need something to hate, create our own boogeymen as it were, just look at recent history. Governments still make you believe in the boogeymen as fear wins votes faster than kissing babies and being nice.
I have to agree with this, although I'm sure players will swear they're only doing it to stick with the almighty 'canon'.
SWG is actually an extermely good example (without getting into the Germany part of it). In the beginning unless you were a human everything cost more faction points for the other species and for the longest time the art department couldn't fit non-human / zabrak heads into ST helmets. Then they changed the cost's, made it so everyone could wear the ST helmet etc..... SOE changed things to make those that wished to play the Empire more accessible no matter what your species was. For them (and it must have been with Lucas's OK) canon had changed for the game enviroment.
Not really any racism there as the original game plan was following the movies.
Fast forward to the Starsider RP'er's. The real hardcore, you can't play in my game unless you follow my rules types (I'm not tarring all RP'er's with the same brush, just those that I've described). For them it was very much the human way or no way, even if their toon's didn't follow canon as with a Female human Imperial Officer toon.
Now the defense was of course; you can't play since alien Imp's aren't canon, but as they didn't follow canon you really have to ask how much of the racism was a carry over from the outside world?
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
Racism exists in MMO´s? YOU NEVER PLAYED WoW? Gnomes usually get discriminated big time, sometimes they unite, its dangerous!
and with cataclysm goblins will obviously be discriminated too :P
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In AoC there is RP racism, because it fits in with the lore...
I RP a Cimmerian character, and the only players I kill just to kill are Stygians, simply because it fits our RPing...
PLAYING: NOTHING!!!
PLAYED:FFXI, LotRO, AoC, WAR, DDO, Megaten, Wurm, Rohan, Mabinogi, RoM
WAITING FOR: Dust 514
Uh, yea. Elyos vs Asmos are the most racist it can get.
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racism and nazism isnt the samething you know. and I believe its hard to talk about racism in a game that is played and made by the players. That is becuse I dont believe any game developer want to have that kind of stuff in their game becuse of the bad publicity and such. But I know that we players can make a game quite racist if we want to.The tools are already there with the fraction wars between some fantasy humanoids,
I7@4ghz, 5970@ 1 ghz/5ghz, water cooled||Former setups Byggblogg||Byggblogg 2|| Msi Wind u100
I'll bite. What is it about Stygians that makes you want to kill them all? Every one of them being unexceptionable because? What do you gain by killing them, or lose by not killing them?
Why do you do what you're told?
Okay, so this will sound weird/lame/extremely nerdy...but...
In Conan lore, Stygians are loyal to the god Set...Set is considered an Arch Demon to the Hyborian kingdoms, and Set usually has cults of evil sorcerers who sacrifice the innocent to please their god...
While RPing in AoC, we have made the Cult of Set our enemy...this includes all Stygians...Now I didn't say I kill EVERY Stygian, and I don't gank lowbie Stygians, but I do kill Stygians when I'm with my fellow RPers...and sometimes when I'm alone and feel like getting into some random PvP...
We only gain RP satisfaction by killing them, and lose nothing by not killing them...
and I'm only doing what the lore is telling us to do...kinda...it sounds kinda lame now that I'm having to explain it, but it's just RP...that's just something that we do...weird lore-based stuff...
PLAYING: NOTHING!!!
PLAYED:FFXI, LotRO, AoC, WAR, DDO, Megaten, Wurm, Rohan, Mabinogi, RoM
WAITING FOR: Dust 514
im pretty sure every single MMO out there is racist against goblins, kobolds, wolves and spiders. How many of these guys have you genocided?
They kidnap and/or eat children, ain't you never seen that quest before?
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
but theyre soooooooo cutttt... ARGGGGGG NAHM NAHM NAHM MAI FACE
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