What is the most distant feature of an MMO? That it is Massively Multiplayer, i.e that you are surrounded by other players when you enter the world. So how many of todays MMOs are realy Massively Multiplayer? GW and EvE is although they are rather old. The same is still true to Aion. On the other hand LotRo is not. Last I logged in there were two,2 !, other players in my area. It kept staying like that everytime I checked in on various servers. As far as I have understood this is true to Vanguard, WAR and probably a bunch of other major MMOs. Is this genre dying down when it comes to the AAA MMOs? What other AAA MMOs can truely call themselves an MMO; meaning they have a healthy population that allows you to feel surrounded by other players when you log in?
Seriously dude,where do you get your info from? At least do your homework before you make threads that don't ring true.
If this genre is dying then it because of ill informed people like yourself, you know people believing the BS from people who are clueless.
I get my information from playing some of the games and reading what others has to say about other game populations. I am still in the starter areas of LotRo, though after the introduction, and they are void. Today there where 4 players in addition to me, that is the double up from 2, but the world is large, so you rarely see any other players and play by yourself, and that is not an MMO to me. I enjoy the game, but find it pointless to play as an MMO since there is nobody else. This game has 200 - 300k subscribers. It is famous for being top end heavy, and you really feel it if you try it out now. So if it is not dying, it is getting very old, if you see what I mean.
FTPMMO, let me ask you this: How old is LotrO, how many expansions does the game has, you think starter area's will be packed with people for months, years? seriously how do you actualy view MMO's?
I just wish people into this genre would become more realistic in there expectations and reflect that on the games they want to play, else we will continue to see topics like this which seems to be populair cause we see atleast 1 if not more of the same type of topic made each day.
But then again you view GuildWars as a MMO so not sure how seriously I can take your complaints as we all know guildwars is NOT a MMORPG, it just has taken the best elements of today's massively multiplayer online games and combines them with a new mission-based design that eliminates some of the more tedious aspects of those games. Simply put Guild Wars is an online roleplaying game as is said by Arenanet themselfs on their own website.
Seriously....
In a way I could see what you mean but you choose the wrong games to express that, your example of Lotro is build upon story that progresses with each new book/chapter/expansion, they didn't make the game so you might one day go back to towns you started with, they made the game to progress to the storyline, understanding that would make you understand why your starter town is kinda void from other players.
Now I would like to see more MMORPG that make it so that story is not what matters, apart from perhaps a mainstory MMORPG should have meaning for what ever lvl one might be to get back to what ever town they started. Currently I see Fallen Earth as that game that might deliver this, for now it's like most MMO you have starter towns that eventualy become void cause the base community will be elsewhere doing other things at other lvl's, but the prospect of hte game continue's to evolve within all of the game, I know plenty of players who are greedy to get every drop of AP, this means allot of people who have rushed it allittle will return to their starter area'tho this starter area consists of major towns, where regardless you lvl you still have the means to earn some AP, so MMO's need insentive for players to return to lower parts of the game else it simply will not happen.
So choose your games wisely, when you see thousands of not more people enjoying a game you do not enjoy realize that game is NOT dying but just is a game that might have a different way of doing things, maybe way's you don't like but to say these games are dying is just plain ignorant excuse me for saying that but that's how I feel when I read another "MMO's are dying topic", you can not make that assumtion without actually knowing the buildup or meaning of the game.
Well I tried going back to WoW and I must say the old worlds are like abandoned wastelands almost. Only a few handfulls here and there and thats about it. Last year I tried Lotro and there was still plently of people running around but they only have a few servers to choose from which may be a smart thing to do considering only the diehards are left. Guild Wars is always packed in the major towns. Lions Arch, Kamadan and Kaineng City is always busy. Amazingly enough I tried Aion again and the low level areas were empty with only a small group here and there. Fallen Earth is actually pretty busy although depending on what time of the day it is some towns can be pretty empty.
I have played WoW from beta, and come back after every EXP for several months. Before I retire from it typically I try to start ALT that make me the final decision for it. Old leveling zones are abandoned like other side of the moon... Even so empty world of Vanguard was like a paradise compared to WoW when I last time reactivate my Vanguard after 6 months WoW. Its right that Vanguard is much more difficult to keep me for 6 months but the only reason for it is the missing of PvP, even the only reasonable PvP in WoW is Arena.
In general WoW population on one server is much lower than any other MMO even one of the low subscription number games like Vanguard. Do not talk about LotRo as this is a very actual game with over 200-300k subs that is pretty enough for great developement of the game. The question is where all money from WoW goes? For sure 90% of them are not for supporting and developing of the game...
The money is used for expansions, patches, maintenance and payroll. Guess you never played Lich King and not aware of the upcoming Cataclysm expansion.
Are you crazy? Do you know that Blizzard make more money/year than my entire country? Every WoW EXP do not cost more than a WoW profit for a month. At least they have possibility to have a better support, because even a game like Vanguard with around 20-30k subs have no more than a hour support response compared with at least 2 in WoW!
It has been stated that much of the money goes to fund future Blizzard endeavors to make even more money for the company as expected. Profits go to share holders and are reinvested in the company as a whole. Anyone who thought their subs and box purchases were going completely into WoW needs to do some reading.
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A man without a penis is a woman! Eurika! That is why people love WoW! WoW is a woman!!!
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Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration ______\m/_____ LordOfDarkDesire
Depends on where. DAL is always too crowded for my taste and some newbie zones have some populations.
When an expansion is released, the newer leveling zones will be crowded beyond fun.
But i digress. Massive != fun. I would much rather player a well designed 5-man dungeon from a lobby than going into a crowded zone fighting everyone else for spawns. That is why the new dungeon finder tool is SO popular in WOW. Blizzard realize that people like to group, but not necessarily playing next to another 100 people.
That feature wasn't about avoided crowded areas at all. It's about saving time. You could waste tons of time on WoW sitting around in cities looking for a tank or heals. This just increases the pool of available players. it also takes flying time out. It's very focused on eliminating downtime, mostly for casual players, who want quick in and out experiences.
What is the most distant feature of an MMO? That it is Massively Multiplayer, i.e that you are surrounded by other players when you enter the world. So how many of todays MMOs are realy Massively Multiplayer? GW and EvE is although they are rather old. The same is still true to Aion. On the other hand LotRo is not. Last I logged in there were two,2 !, other players in my area. It kept staying like that everytime I checked in on various servers. As far as I have understood this is true to Vanguard, WAR and probably a bunch of other major MMOs. Is this genre dying down when it comes to the AAA MMOs? What other AAA MMOs can truely call themselves an MMO; meaning they have a healthy population that allows you to feel surrounded by other players when you log in?
Seriously dude,where do you get your info from? At least do your homework before you make threads that don't ring true.
If this genre is dying then it because of ill informed people like yourself, you know people believing the BS from people who are clueless.
I get my information from playing some of the games and reading what others has to say about other game populations. I am still in the starter areas of LotRo, though after the introduction, and they are void. Today there where 4 players in addition to me, that is the double up from 2, but the world is large, so you rarely see any other players and play by yourself, and that is not an MMO to me. I enjoy the game, but find it pointless to play as an MMO since there is nobody else. This game has 200 - 300k subscribers. It is famous for being top end heavy, and you really feel it if you try it out now. So if it is not dying, it is getting very old, if you see what I mean.
FTPMMO, let me ask you this: How old is LotrO, how many expansions does the game has, you think starter area's will be packed with people for months, years? seriously how do you actualy view MMO's?
I just wish people into this genre would become more realistic in there expectations and reflect that on the games they want to play, else we will continue to see topics like this which seems to be populair cause we see atleast 1 if not more of the same type of topic made each day.
But then again you view GuildWars as a MMO so not sure how seriously I can take your complaints as we all know guildwars is NOT a MMORPG, it just has taken the best elements of today's massively multiplayer online games and combines them with a new mission-based design that eliminates some of the more tedious aspects of those games. Simply put Guild Wars is an online roleplaying game as is said by Arenanet themselfs on their own website.
Seriously....
In a way I could see what you mean but you choose the wrong games to express that, your example of Lotro is build upon story that progresses with each new book/chapter/expansion, they didn't make the game so you might one day go back to towns you started with, they made the game to progress to the storyline, understanding that would make you understand why your starter town is kinda void from other players.
Now I would like to see more MMORPG that make it so that story is not what matters, apart from perhaps a mainstory MMORPG should have meaning for what ever lvl one might be to get back to what ever town they started. Currently I see Fallen Earth as that game that might deliver this, for now it's like most MMO you have starter towns that eventualy become void cause the base community will be elsewhere doing other things at other lvl's, but the prospect of hte game continue's to evolve within all of the game, I know plenty of players who are greedy to get every drop of AP, this means allot of people who have rushed it allittle will return to their starter area'tho this starter area consists of major towns, where regardless you lvl you still have the means to earn some AP, so MMO's need insentive for players to return to lower parts of the game else it simply will not happen.
So choose your games wisely, when you see thousands of not more people enjoying a game you do not enjoy realize that game is NOT dying but just is a game that might have a different way of doing things, maybe way's you don't like but to say these games are dying is just plain ignorant excuse me for saying that but that's how I feel when I read another "MMO's are dying topic", you can not make that assumtion without actually knowing the buildup or meaning of the game.
I realize LotRo woun't die as long as the die hards continue to play it, those who where lucky to be there when the game took off back in 2007. The way it is designed, as you describe it, makes it difficult to join the game now, it is not meant for new players. I seriously like the game play of LotRo, it is just the playing an MMO with noone around makes no sense. I'll refer from the dying argument, but in its own way it'll get old due to what you stated. So I'll wait around for another good game within the fantasy genre to come around, where I can join from the beginning, or as you said find another game designed in a way to let players come back to starter and mid game areas, to make the world more appealing and a truly Massively Multiplayer to all players within the game.
wow total cost to operate is about 1 to 3% of what then their total income is since they make minimum of 150 million a month (and my number is on the very low side) it means blizzard total cost / month is at max 5 million (and im generous here)
Where/What is your source for those numbers?
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
Depends on where. DAL is always too crowded for my taste and some newbie zones have some populations.
When an expansion is released, the newer leveling zones will be crowded beyond fun.
But i digress. Massive != fun. I would much rather player a well designed 5-man dungeon from a lobby than going into a crowded zone fighting everyone else for spawns. That is why the new dungeon finder tool is SO popular in WOW. Blizzard realize that people like to group, but not necessarily playing next to another 100 people.
That feature wasn't about avoided crowded areas at all. It's about saving time. You could waste tons of time on WoW sitting around in cities looking for a tank or heals. This just increases the pool of available players. it also takes flying time out. It's very focused on eliminating downtime, mostly for casual players, who want quick in and out experiences.
yep freerealm was there for those!now every game are going casual.since game maker all carbon copy wow.
wow total cost to operate is about 1 to 3% of what then their total income is since they make minimum of 150 million a month (and my number is on the very low side) it means blizzard total cost / month is at max 5 million (and im generous here)
Where/What is your source for those numbers?
it costed them if i recall 300 million to operate the first 4 years thats everything included
they made what close to 3 billion in that total time in 4 years they ve been at around 10% cost so divided by 4 its about 2.5% cost
my number arent accurate true since i dont recall the exact number of million but trust me ,it didnt cost a lot
event the gaming industry was surprised when it was announced.
blizzard can live without activision!i doubt activision could live without blizzard
What is the most distant feature of an MMO? That it is Massively Multiplayer, i.e that you are surrounded by other players when you enter the world. So how many of todays MMOs are realy Massively Multiplayer? GW and EvE is although they are rather old. The same is still true to Aion. On the other hand LotRo is not. Last I logged in there were two,2 !, other players in my area. It kept staying like that everytime I checked in on various servers. As far as I have understood this is true to Vanguard, WAR and probably a bunch of other major MMOs. Is this genre dying down when it comes to the AAA MMOs? What other AAA MMOs can truely call themselves an MMO; meaning they have a healthy population that allows you to feel surrounded by other players when you log in?
Wanna know where everyone is in LOTRO , simple level a character past level 45 and enter moria and head to 21st hall .
that where alot of the folks on the server hang out , for various reasons , to do a raid , turtle , bank and use the AH .
But this was before pre mirkwood , i lefted game shortly after mirkwood launched kinda burned out .
Well I tried going back to WoW and I must say the old worlds are like abandoned wastelands almost. Only a few handfulls here and there and thats about it. Last year I tried Lotro and there was still plently of people running around but they only have a few servers to choose from which may be a smart thing to do considering only the diehards are left. Guild Wars is always packed in the major towns. Lions Arch, Kamadan and Kaineng City is always busy. Amazingly enough I tried Aion again and the low level areas were empty with only a small group here and there. Fallen Earth is actually pretty busy although depending on what time of the day it is some towns can be pretty empty.
I have played WoW from beta, and come back after every EXP for several months. Before I retire from it typically I try to start ALT that make me the final decision for it. Old leveling zones are abandoned like other side of the moon... Even so empty world of Vanguard was like a paradise compared to WoW when I last time reactivate my Vanguard after 6 months WoW. Its right that Vanguard is much more difficult to keep me for 6 months but the only reason for it is the missing of PvP, even the only reasonable PvP in WoW is Arena.
In general WoW population on one server is much lower than any other MMO even one of the low subscription number games like Vanguard. Do not talk about LotRo as this is a very actual game with over 200-300k subs that is pretty enough for great developement of the game. The question is where all money from WoW goes? For sure 90% of them are not for supporting and developing of the game...
The money is used for expansions, patches, maintenance and payroll. Guess you never played Lich King and not aware of the upcoming Cataclysm expansion.
Are you crazy? Do you know that Blizzard make more money/year than my entire country? Every WoW EXP do not cost more than a WoW profit for a month. At least they have possibility to have a better support, because even a game like Vanguard with around 20-30k subs have no more than a hour support response compared with at least 2 in WoW!
You forget that Blizzard was making tons of money before WoW. Diablo, Starcraft and Warcraft owned the gaming genre at one point without a subscription fee and they made all their payroll and expansions for those games just fine without a subscription fee.
The OP touched a valid point, but made a wrong conclusion. If an area is only visited by few players, that doesn't necessarily mean the game is dying, as high level players/capped players have their own playground. The player hubs will change over time, too. But this depends on which content is visited mostly by players.
Another aspect are towns and villages in-game. Don't make the wrong assumption that these should work like real-world towns which you would visit to meet friends/family, work, vacations, etc. Once you are done with your main objectives (e.g. level up, get specific gear, vicinity to certain areas) there's almost no reason to go back.
A third aspect are game mechanics. A "global" auction house, "global" chat channels, chat over "long distances" lessen the need to be "physically" near other players within the game-world.
Originally posted by FTPMMO I realize LotRo woun't die as long as the die hards continue to play it, those who where lucky to be there when the game took off back in 2007. The way it is designed, as you describe it, makes it difficult to join the game now, it is not meant for new players. I seriously like the game play of LotRo, it is just the playing an MMO with noone around makes no sense. I'll refer from the dying argument, but in its own way it'll get old due to what you stated. So I'll wait around for another good game within the fantasy genre to come around, where I can join from the beginning, or as you said find another game designed in a way to let players come back to starter and mid game areas, to make the world more appealing and a truly Massively Multiplayer to all players within the game.
There was a recent interview done with one of the top LotRO executives, and he said that there are more players in LotRO than there were at launch. The server populations are so stable they've never had to merge servers or close any down. LotRO, along with a couple other mmo's like EVE are the few mmo's to actually increase their subscribers over time. Most mmo's like Warhammer, AoC, Vanguard, EQ2 etc., the populations quickly or slowly drop over time, especially in the first few months.
Also, you are correct that there are not a lot of players in the starter zones in LotRO, but you are VERY incorrect as far as the game not being new player friendly. In the last few months they have gone back and revamped all the low level zones, making the new player experience easier and more player friendly. Quest givers are closer together and require less running back and forth. Quests that used to require groups (hard to find in starter areas) have been made solo-able now. It's now possible for a player to get a new character through to level 15 and to Bree, the first main city where lots of players are, in a matter of a day.
While I understand your desire to see lots of players of all levels in the starter areas when new players come through, it's just NOT easy or even feasible to do. In order to keep players in the starter zones, several things would need to be done. Each starter zone would have to have a bunch of low, mid, and high level content all packed into the relatively small area of the zone, making it harder for low-level players to safely get around. This also makes leveling for low-level characters harder since then they'd run out of quests of their level 3 times as fast and have to move on to another zone making it even harder for players to find other players near their level. But hey, they'd see a lot of players NOT their level. And, each time an expansion came out and the level cap was raised, the starter zone would have to be re-vamped so that new stuff could be added for the now higher level players.
Another reason why this would be hard to do is that most players themselves probably wouldn't like to be forced to hang around the same city and zone for several years straight. Given enough time people get tired of the same view.
And finally, this sort of system would make it very hard to add new zones, quest areas, and towns. Adding a zone means adding quest hubs for that zone, either small towns, villages, or even just small outposts. Players questing in that area don't want to have to go several zones away to vendor off their stuff and put things in the bank or mail, just to turn around and go several zones back to continue their quests. This would mean the devs would need to put those things into the quest hub area, but, by putting those things there they're keeping those players from the starter area. This is the reason why current MMO's have their higher level players hanging out in the main hubs of new expansion zones.
wow total cost to operate is about 1 to 3% of what then their total income is since they make minimum of 150 million a month (and my number is on the very low side) it means blizzard total cost / month is at max 5 million (and im generous here) true if you add the insanity going on with china it adds a bit of cost. but its nowhere neer an issue lol their lawyer cost more then the whole china thing lol
You have no ideal what you are talking about.
The overhead includes more than server costs. They also have an incredible payroll for JUST current wow support costs, never you mind the payroll for the teams working on future expansions. The parent company also gets a heavy cut, you can bet. Then you have prime time advertising to consider. Getting Mr. T. and Shatner probably set them back more than the 5 million YOU quoted, and thats before the actual advertisement was made.
What I want you to do is go use google to look up what basic server costs even are a month. Mind you, the servers YOU will likely find taht way can only host around 500-1000 people...so be sure to assume that major mmo server hardware is ten times that cost. Then I want you to google the average pay rate for basic developement teams, followed by the entry level pay scale for support members.
5 million doesnt TOUCH it. I'm not saying Bliz isn't RAKING in the dough...but your average business is lucky to soak half the total revenue in profit. Gaming companies sometimes are lucky to get 25%, because of how high the overhead is to get started, and how fickle sales are in the genre.
Also, to the poster who complained about WoW and its support times....
Yeah, Vanguard gets fast support answers. Its real easy to answer the 5 players they have. Now when your support team has to deal with a few million requests per hour....then we can talk about how "fair" those times are.
OmaliMMO Business CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,177
Originally posted by drbaltazar
wow total cost to operate is about 1 to 3% of what then their total income is since they make minimum of 150 million a month (and my number is on the very low side) it means blizzard total cost / month is at max 5 million (and im generous here) true if you add the insanity going on with china it adds a bit of cost. but its nowhere neer an issue lol their lawyer cost more then the whole china thing lol
They don't make $15 million a month. They have 11 million subscribers, but only about 3 million of them pay the $15 dollar a month subscription fee. The great majority of WoW's players are in Asian countries, where they pay for packages of hours, and I believe the current rate is approximately 6 cents USD per hour.
Being a LOTRO player I can say that on Brandywine server there are many, many people. Even in the lower level zones there are plenty of people. Once you get to Bree-town the population really starts to pick up, and you will see plenty of people. LOTRO still has (and will continue to, imo) many players, and is in no way even near "death".
there are always people who are going to be saying a game is dying regardless if it is or not it gets to a point where you find these posts quite comical
Being a LOTRO player I can say that on Brandywine server there are many, many people. Even in the lower level zones there are plenty of people. Once you get to Bree-town the population really starts to pick up, and you will see plenty of people. LOTRO still has (and will continue to, imo) many players, and is in no way even near "death".
Being a LOTRO player I can say that on Brandywine server there are many, many people. Even in the lower level zones there are plenty of people. Once you get to Bree-town the population really starts to pick up, and you will see plenty of people. LOTRO still has (and will continue to, imo) many players, and is in no way even near "death".
QFT!
I've actually had to wait on repops of quest mobs quite regularly in the lowbie areas. If LoTRO is near death I would have hated to play while it was thriving. I left two other MMOs (Vanguard and AoC) because there was no population to group with. I'm still playing LoTRO specifically because of the population.
What is the most distant feature of an MMO? That it is Massively Multiplayer, i.e that you are surrounded by other players when you enter the world. So how many of todays MMOs are realy Massively Multiplayer? GW and EvE is although they are rather old. The same is still true to Aion. On the other hand LotRo is not. Last I logged in there were two,2 !, other players in my area. It kept staying like that everytime I checked in on various servers. As far as I have understood this is true to Vanguard, WAR and probably a bunch of other major MMOs. Is this genre dying down when it comes to the AAA MMOs? What other AAA MMOs can truely call themselves an MMO; meaning they have a healthy population that allows you to feel surrounded by other players when you log in?
While I have always argued that from day one LotR had too many servers this post simply isn't true about the game. It may be this way on a couple of the more underpopulated servers but not across the board. I started from scratch again just a few months ago and had no problems at all finding groups or running into people to complete content.
It certainly isn't as populated as WoW but the game as a whole has quite a healthy population. Although it could and always will due with merging a couple of the servers. By this point, however, Turbine has shown they simply refuse to do this so those that make the mistake of joining one of the lesser populated ones are simply sol unless they're fortunate, do some guild/group hunting on forums, or start playing the game with a set group of family or friends. One of the few areas they lack insight in far as I'm concerned, but regardless they've shown that overall it doesn't hurt them and clearly at this point they've shown that the bad pr from doing so outweighs the increase in retention they would gain. At least far as they see things.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
LOTRO is incredibly fun, and I would play it...BUT
an immersion breaking problem I have with LOTRO. Here is a good example
I run out of Archet, and run toward Combe. I see a broken wagon outside Archet gate...I sit and listen to the NPCs. I see they say something like "how will we ever get to Combe now?"
When Combe is a few seconds away from Archet gate...the NPCs around the broken wagon can't even walk that few seconds to Combe?
The world of LOTRO is the worst world I've seen in a MMO and game. Graphics and sound are amazing...sound is the best sound effects I've heard in a game. But, I will never play LOTRO because the world is horrible. Combe is pretty much right next door to Bree.
No, I don't expect a EVE size world. But at least WoW world was more or less believable, at least in zone size. The broken wagon on border of Westfall/Elwynn was a lot more believable than LOTRO's broken wagon that was literally two or three jumps away from Combe.
And thats just an example of one of the horrible immersion breaking events that I saw in LOTRO that had to do with zone size. I don't know what Turbine was thinking with the horribly small zones, that they tried to fit everything into.
For that specific example (Combe close Archet close to Bree Town) I would guess that it is because it is the newbie'sh area. They don't want you to have to run far. And they don't anticipate you going back and forth between Combe and Archet. But I get that you are saying there is more.
However, I don't think the zones are small at all, especially compared to WoW. Just the starter layout. For instance to do the final chicken play quest you have to run across The Shire, Bree and Lone Lands. Just running west to east across those 3 zones non-stop takes 30 minutes. Given you probably have to run that quest more than once you start wishing the zones were small.
I personally felt the world to be more expansive than WoW.
Comments
wow total cost to operate is about 1 to 3% of what then their total income is since they make minimum of 150 million a month
(and my number is on the very low side)
it means blizzard total cost / month is at max 5 million (and im generous here)
true if you add the insanity going on with china it adds a bit of cost.
but its nowhere neer an issue lol their lawyer cost more then the whole china thing lol
Seriously dude,where do you get your info from? At least do your homework before you make threads that don't ring true.
If this genre is dying then it because of ill informed people like yourself, you know people believing the BS from people who are clueless.
I get my information from playing some of the games and reading what others has to say about other game populations. I am still in the starter areas of LotRo, though after the introduction, and they are void. Today there where 4 players in addition to me, that is the double up from 2, but the world is large, so you rarely see any other players and play by yourself, and that is not an MMO to me. I enjoy the game, but find it pointless to play as an MMO since there is nobody else. This game has 200 - 300k subscribers. It is famous for being top end heavy, and you really feel it if you try it out now. So if it is not dying, it is getting very old, if you see what I mean.
FTPMMO, let me ask you this: How old is LotrO, how many expansions does the game has, you think starter area's will be packed with people for months, years? seriously how do you actualy view MMO's?
I just wish people into this genre would become more realistic in there expectations and reflect that on the games they want to play, else we will continue to see topics like this which seems to be populair cause we see atleast 1 if not more of the same type of topic made each day.
But then again you view GuildWars as a MMO so not sure how seriously I can take your complaints as we all know guildwars is NOT a MMORPG, it just has taken the best elements of today's massively multiplayer online games and combines them with a new mission-based design that eliminates some of the more tedious aspects of those games. Simply put Guild Wars is an online roleplaying game as is said by Arenanet themselfs on their own website.
Seriously....
In a way I could see what you mean but you choose the wrong games to express that, your example of Lotro is build upon story that progresses with each new book/chapter/expansion, they didn't make the game so you might one day go back to towns you started with, they made the game to progress to the storyline, understanding that would make you understand why your starter town is kinda void from other players.
Now I would like to see more MMORPG that make it so that story is not what matters, apart from perhaps a mainstory MMORPG should have meaning for what ever lvl one might be to get back to what ever town they started. Currently I see Fallen Earth as that game that might deliver this, for now it's like most MMO you have starter towns that eventualy become void cause the base community will be elsewhere doing other things at other lvl's, but the prospect of hte game continue's to evolve within all of the game, I know plenty of players who are greedy to get every drop of AP, this means allot of people who have rushed it allittle will return to their starter area'tho this starter area consists of major towns, where regardless you lvl you still have the means to earn some AP, so MMO's need insentive for players to return to lower parts of the game else it simply will not happen.
So choose your games wisely, when you see thousands of not more people enjoying a game you do not enjoy realize that game is NOT dying but just is a game that might have a different way of doing things, maybe way's you don't like but to say these games are dying is just plain ignorant excuse me for saying that but that's how I feel when I read another "MMO's are dying topic", you can not make that assumtion without actually knowing the buildup or meaning of the game.
I have played WoW from beta, and come back after every EXP for several months. Before I retire from it typically I try to start ALT that make me the final decision for it. Old leveling zones are abandoned like other side of the moon... Even so empty world of Vanguard was like a paradise compared to WoW when I last time reactivate my Vanguard after 6 months WoW. Its right that Vanguard is much more difficult to keep me for 6 months but the only reason for it is the missing of PvP, even the only reasonable PvP in WoW is Arena.
In general WoW population on one server is much lower than any other MMO even one of the low subscription number games like Vanguard. Do not talk about LotRo as this is a very actual game with over 200-300k subs that is pretty enough for great developement of the game. The question is where all money from WoW goes? For sure 90% of them are not for supporting and developing of the game...
The money is used for expansions, patches, maintenance and payroll. Guess you never played Lich King and not aware of the upcoming Cataclysm expansion.
Are you crazy? Do you know that Blizzard make more money/year than my entire country? Every WoW EXP do not cost more than a WoW profit for a month. At least they have possibility to have a better support, because even a game like Vanguard with around 20-30k subs have no more than a hour support response compared with at least 2 in WoW!
It has been stated that much of the money goes to fund future Blizzard endeavors to make even more money for the company as expected. Profits go to share holders and are reinvested in the company as a whole. Anyone who thought their subs and box purchases were going completely into WoW needs to do some reading.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
A man without a penis is a woman! Eurika! That is why people love WoW! WoW is a woman!!!
:-)=)
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
______\m/_____
LordOfDarkDesire
Depends on where. DAL is always too crowded for my taste and some newbie zones have some populations.
When an expansion is released, the newer leveling zones will be crowded beyond fun.
But i digress. Massive != fun. I would much rather player a well designed 5-man dungeon from a lobby than going into a crowded zone fighting everyone else for spawns. That is why the new dungeon finder tool is SO popular in WOW. Blizzard realize that people like to group, but not necessarily playing next to another 100 people.
That feature wasn't about avoided crowded areas at all. It's about saving time. You could waste tons of time on WoW sitting around in cities looking for a tank or heals. This just increases the pool of available players. it also takes flying time out. It's very focused on eliminating downtime, mostly for casual players, who want quick in and out experiences.
Seriously dude,where do you get your info from? At least do your homework before you make threads that don't ring true.
If this genre is dying then it because of ill informed people like yourself, you know people believing the BS from people who are clueless.
I get my information from playing some of the games and reading what others has to say about other game populations. I am still in the starter areas of LotRo, though after the introduction, and they are void. Today there where 4 players in addition to me, that is the double up from 2, but the world is large, so you rarely see any other players and play by yourself, and that is not an MMO to me. I enjoy the game, but find it pointless to play as an MMO since there is nobody else. This game has 200 - 300k subscribers. It is famous for being top end heavy, and you really feel it if you try it out now. So if it is not dying, it is getting very old, if you see what I mean.
FTPMMO, let me ask you this: How old is LotrO, how many expansions does the game has, you think starter area's will be packed with people for months, years? seriously how do you actualy view MMO's?
I just wish people into this genre would become more realistic in there expectations and reflect that on the games they want to play, else we will continue to see topics like this which seems to be populair cause we see atleast 1 if not more of the same type of topic made each day.
But then again you view GuildWars as a MMO so not sure how seriously I can take your complaints as we all know guildwars is NOT a MMORPG, it just has taken the best elements of today's massively multiplayer online games and combines them with a new mission-based design that eliminates some of the more tedious aspects of those games. Simply put Guild Wars is an online roleplaying game as is said by Arenanet themselfs on their own website.
Seriously....
In a way I could see what you mean but you choose the wrong games to express that, your example of Lotro is build upon story that progresses with each new book/chapter/expansion, they didn't make the game so you might one day go back to towns you started with, they made the game to progress to the storyline, understanding that would make you understand why your starter town is kinda void from other players.
Now I would like to see more MMORPG that make it so that story is not what matters, apart from perhaps a mainstory MMORPG should have meaning for what ever lvl one might be to get back to what ever town they started. Currently I see Fallen Earth as that game that might deliver this, for now it's like most MMO you have starter towns that eventualy become void cause the base community will be elsewhere doing other things at other lvl's, but the prospect of hte game continue's to evolve within all of the game, I know plenty of players who are greedy to get every drop of AP, this means allot of people who have rushed it allittle will return to their starter area'tho this starter area consists of major towns, where regardless you lvl you still have the means to earn some AP, so MMO's need insentive for players to return to lower parts of the game else it simply will not happen.
So choose your games wisely, when you see thousands of not more people enjoying a game you do not enjoy realize that game is NOT dying but just is a game that might have a different way of doing things, maybe way's you don't like but to say these games are dying is just plain ignorant excuse me for saying that but that's how I feel when I read another "MMO's are dying topic", you can not make that assumtion without actually knowing the buildup or meaning of the game.
I realize LotRo woun't die as long as the die hards continue to play it, those who where lucky to be there when the game took off back in 2007. The way it is designed, as you describe it, makes it difficult to join the game now, it is not meant for new players. I seriously like the game play of LotRo, it is just the playing an MMO with noone around makes no sense. I'll refer from the dying argument, but in its own way it'll get old due to what you stated. So I'll wait around for another good game within the fantasy genre to come around, where I can join from the beginning, or as you said find another game designed in a way to let players come back to starter and mid game areas, to make the world more appealing and a truly Massively Multiplayer to all players within the game.
Where/What is your source for those numbers?
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
The op obviously doesn't know what he/she is talking about.. lol what a joker..
Depends on where. DAL is always too crowded for my taste and some newbie zones have some populations.
When an expansion is released, the newer leveling zones will be crowded beyond fun.
But i digress. Massive != fun. I would much rather player a well designed 5-man dungeon from a lobby than going into a crowded zone fighting everyone else for spawns. That is why the new dungeon finder tool is SO popular in WOW. Blizzard realize that people like to group, but not necessarily playing next to another 100 people.
That feature wasn't about avoided crowded areas at all. It's about saving time. You could waste tons of time on WoW sitting around in cities looking for a tank or heals. This just increases the pool of available players. it also takes flying time out. It's very focused on eliminating downtime, mostly for casual players, who want quick in and out experiences.
yep freerealm was there for those!now every game are going casual.since game maker all carbon copy wow.
Where/What is your source for those numbers?
it costed them if i recall 300 million to operate the first 4 years thats everything included
they made what close to 3 billion in that total time in 4 years they ve been at around 10% cost so divided by 4 its about 2.5% cost
my number arent accurate true since i dont recall the exact number of million but trust me ,it didnt cost a lot
event the gaming industry was surprised when it was announced.
blizzard can live without activision!i doubt activision could live without blizzard
Wanna know where everyone is in LOTRO , simple level a character past level 45 and enter moria and head to 21st hall .
that where alot of the folks on the server hang out , for various reasons , to do a raid , turtle , bank and use the AH .
But this was before pre mirkwood , i lefted game shortly after mirkwood launched kinda burned out .
I have played WoW from beta, and come back after every EXP for several months. Before I retire from it typically I try to start ALT that make me the final decision for it. Old leveling zones are abandoned like other side of the moon... Even so empty world of Vanguard was like a paradise compared to WoW when I last time reactivate my Vanguard after 6 months WoW. Its right that Vanguard is much more difficult to keep me for 6 months but the only reason for it is the missing of PvP, even the only reasonable PvP in WoW is Arena.
In general WoW population on one server is much lower than any other MMO even one of the low subscription number games like Vanguard. Do not talk about LotRo as this is a very actual game with over 200-300k subs that is pretty enough for great developement of the game. The question is where all money from WoW goes? For sure 90% of them are not for supporting and developing of the game...
The money is used for expansions, patches, maintenance and payroll. Guess you never played Lich King and not aware of the upcoming Cataclysm expansion.
Are you crazy? Do you know that Blizzard make more money/year than my entire country? Every WoW EXP do not cost more than a WoW profit for a month. At least they have possibility to have a better support, because even a game like Vanguard with around 20-30k subs have no more than a hour support response compared with at least 2 in WoW!
You forget that Blizzard was making tons of money before WoW. Diablo, Starcraft and Warcraft owned the gaming genre at one point without a subscription fee and they made all their payroll and expansions for those games just fine without a subscription fee.
The OP touched a valid point, but made a wrong conclusion. If an area is only visited by few players, that doesn't necessarily mean the game is dying, as high level players/capped players have their own playground. The player hubs will change over time, too. But this depends on which content is visited mostly by players.
Another aspect are towns and villages in-game. Don't make the wrong assumption that these should work like real-world towns which you would visit to meet friends/family, work, vacations, etc. Once you are done with your main objectives (e.g. level up, get specific gear, vicinity to certain areas) there's almost no reason to go back.
A third aspect are game mechanics. A "global" auction house, "global" chat channels, chat over "long distances" lessen the need to be "physically" near other players within the game-world.
There was a recent interview done with one of the top LotRO executives, and he said that there are more players in LotRO than there were at launch. The server populations are so stable they've never had to merge servers or close any down. LotRO, along with a couple other mmo's like EVE are the few mmo's to actually increase their subscribers over time. Most mmo's like Warhammer, AoC, Vanguard, EQ2 etc., the populations quickly or slowly drop over time, especially in the first few months.
Also, you are correct that there are not a lot of players in the starter zones in LotRO, but you are VERY incorrect as far as the game not being new player friendly. In the last few months they have gone back and revamped all the low level zones, making the new player experience easier and more player friendly. Quest givers are closer together and require less running back and forth. Quests that used to require groups (hard to find in starter areas) have been made solo-able now. It's now possible for a player to get a new character through to level 15 and to Bree, the first main city where lots of players are, in a matter of a day.
While I understand your desire to see lots of players of all levels in the starter areas when new players come through, it's just NOT easy or even feasible to do. In order to keep players in the starter zones, several things would need to be done. Each starter zone would have to have a bunch of low, mid, and high level content all packed into the relatively small area of the zone, making it harder for low-level players to safely get around. This also makes leveling for low-level characters harder since then they'd run out of quests of their level 3 times as fast and have to move on to another zone making it even harder for players to find other players near their level. But hey, they'd see a lot of players NOT their level. And, each time an expansion came out and the level cap was raised, the starter zone would have to be re-vamped so that new stuff could be added for the now higher level players.
Another reason why this would be hard to do is that most players themselves probably wouldn't like to be forced to hang around the same city and zone for several years straight. Given enough time people get tired of the same view.
And finally, this sort of system would make it very hard to add new zones, quest areas, and towns. Adding a zone means adding quest hubs for that zone, either small towns, villages, or even just small outposts. Players questing in that area don't want to have to go several zones away to vendor off their stuff and put things in the bank or mail, just to turn around and go several zones back to continue their quests. This would mean the devs would need to put those things into the quest hub area, but, by putting those things there they're keeping those players from the starter area. This is the reason why current MMO's have their higher level players hanging out in the main hubs of new expansion zones.
A lot of games are top heavy meaning that most of the population of regular players are at max level.
EQ2 is like this, you don't see a lot of people around in the lowbee zones if any.
To make matters worse, they created guild halls and now that's where everyone hangs out. So you see even fewer people wondering around town.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
You have no ideal what you are talking about.
The overhead includes more than server costs. They also have an incredible payroll for JUST current wow support costs, never you mind the payroll for the teams working on future expansions. The parent company also gets a heavy cut, you can bet. Then you have prime time advertising to consider. Getting Mr. T. and Shatner probably set them back more than the 5 million YOU quoted, and thats before the actual advertisement was made.
What I want you to do is go use google to look up what basic server costs even are a month. Mind you, the servers YOU will likely find taht way can only host around 500-1000 people...so be sure to assume that major mmo server hardware is ten times that cost. Then I want you to google the average pay rate for basic developement teams, followed by the entry level pay scale for support members.
5 million doesnt TOUCH it. I'm not saying Bliz isn't RAKING in the dough...but your average business is lucky to soak half the total revenue in profit. Gaming companies sometimes are lucky to get 25%, because of how high the overhead is to get started, and how fickle sales are in the genre.
Also, to the poster who complained about WoW and its support times....
Yeah, Vanguard gets fast support answers. Its real easy to answer the 5 players they have. Now when your support team has to deal with a few million requests per hour....then we can talk about how "fair" those times are.
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3169949 thats the article i had read back then!
They don't make $15 million a month. They have 11 million subscribers, but only about 3 million of them pay the $15 dollar a month subscription fee. The great majority of WoW's players are in Asian countries, where they pay for packages of hours, and I believe the current rate is approximately 6 cents USD per hour.
Being a LOTRO player I can say that on Brandywine server there are many, many people. Even in the lower level zones there are plenty of people. Once you get to Bree-town the population really starts to pick up, and you will see plenty of people. LOTRO still has (and will continue to, imo) many players, and is in no way even near "death".
there are always people who are going to be saying a game is dying regardless if it is or not it gets to a point where you find these posts quite comical
QFT!
QFT!
I've actually had to wait on repops of quest mobs quite regularly in the lowbie areas. If LoTRO is near death I would have hated to play while it was thriving. I left two other MMOs (Vanguard and AoC) because there was no population to group with. I'm still playing LoTRO specifically because of the population.
While I have always argued that from day one LotR had too many servers this post simply isn't true about the game. It may be this way on a couple of the more underpopulated servers but not across the board. I started from scratch again just a few months ago and had no problems at all finding groups or running into people to complete content.
It certainly isn't as populated as WoW but the game as a whole has quite a healthy population. Although it could and always will due with merging a couple of the servers. By this point, however, Turbine has shown they simply refuse to do this so those that make the mistake of joining one of the lesser populated ones are simply sol unless they're fortunate, do some guild/group hunting on forums, or start playing the game with a set group of family or friends. One of the few areas they lack insight in far as I'm concerned, but regardless they've shown that overall it doesn't hurt them and clearly at this point they've shown that the bad pr from doing so outweighs the increase in retention they would gain. At least far as they see things.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
For that specific example (Combe close Archet close to Bree Town) I would guess that it is because it is the newbie'sh area. They don't want you to have to run far. And they don't anticipate you going back and forth between Combe and Archet. But I get that you are saying there is more.
However, I don't think the zones are small at all, especially compared to WoW. Just the starter layout. For instance to do the final chicken play quest you have to run across The Shire, Bree and Lone Lands. Just running west to east across those 3 zones non-stop takes 30 minutes. Given you probably have to run that quest more than once you start wishing the zones were small.
I personally felt the world to be more expansive than WoW.