STO: A Shoebox of a Game. And Badly Designed and Unfinished.

Dojen

Regardless of its' Open Beta state, it's painfully obvious STO is an unfinished game that is also very badly designed. It will retail on Feb 2, and fail shortly thereafter. Why? Get an Open Beta key and check out STO yourself.

There is no feel for the vastness of space. You are put in a "Matrix" style shoebox (sector space) with doors that lead to other shoeboxes with other doors. Open a door in "shoebox space" and you are in a very spatially small and limited system, usually doing a mission. These systems are made cookie cutter style: same suns, same planets, same asteroids, different colors. While there is some sense of space here, that's it. There's no escape from the system to another place in space unless you go back to the shoebox.

In sector space there's no looking up/down/sideways at the sky and seeing the vastness of space. You look around and see a shoebox/chessboard. There's no warping through space. You knock on a door in a shoebox and you watch the "loading bar": that's how you warp. It's also not Sandbox; so much for immersion and player interaction. It's a heavily instanced (on the cheap) arcade game with a single player feel.

The Federation has boring and frequently "wow, they were lazy," rinse and repeat PvE missions and AI crippled NPCs. They can do consensual PvP as well.

Klingons are (consensual) PvP only. There is no Klingon PvE content to speak of. That wouldn't be bad  in itself (as I like PvP), but the PvP is limited to "arenas" (think of an even smaller system) where you queue up to play (8 to 20 players total). There's  no open PvP or RvR although we are guaranteed it will be "brought up" at developer meetings later. Yeah, bring up giving me a million bucks while you're at it.

Surpisingly, the ship to ship (PvP) combat is fairly complex and intriguing. You are allowed Bridge Officers (BOs) and they come with a variety of interesting skills that you can mix and match. Although the skills need to be defined better (what the heck does this skill "really" do?), one can see that thought was put into this part of the game. Although presently unbalanced to favor the Federation, things (PvP) will probably change. If Cryptic decides to cop out as they did in Champs Online, it won't change. But I must say that I might continue playing the game after beta despite itself because I currently am intrigued by the (consensual) PvP ship to ship combat complexity. That part of the game is decent but you can only play so much before it becomes stale. They need to add contested zones, resources, player built stations and the like and make it open RvR (Klingons have consensual HvH--House vs House PvP) to give it some fresh air (perhaps a tough thing to do given the limitations of the engine).

They also need to make space 3D. While you can go up or down at a 45 degree angle, that just doesn't cut it in PvP since the Klingons have a very small firing arc, whereas the Feds can fire in a very large arc. Full 3D movement will go a long way to appease many PvPers. It's a space game, right?

PvP ground combat is horrible. You feel like you're fighting in a cage (to a great degree). All (with any sense and experience) agree here, so no point in me rehashing that. Play the Open Beta if you don't believe me.

The consensual PvP is rather odd since the Federation is at war with the Klingons. Cryptic decided to spare those trekkers new to MMOs from some sort of open RvR/PvP in all areas where it should logically be implemented (the Neutral Zone comes to mind). Bad decision; they might have liked it. They assumed correctly that most people would play the Federation, and that faction actually has PvE content. They are determined to care for the bears until they leave. If they had a few servers dedicated to open PvP/RvR/HvH I wouldn't mind, but as there is only a single server, well, you see the problem.

However, I see no hope for this game in the long run. The design is flawed and can't be fixed, and they are putting out a game 3 years early. This will be an Epic Fail.

 

 

 

caithleen

/signed, good take

ste2000

No it won't be a fail.

Not for Cryptic at least.



They developed 2 games (Champions Online) with the same engine in less than 2 years (an average MMO takes 4 years)

They cut their costs a lot and they will sell at least 500K copies which means they will make a profit even if no one renew the subscripttion (which is unlikely).



This is business, they will get good profits out of an average game, while the MMO players will get screwed as usual.............the story repeats itself.

Only Indie developers make decent MMORPG nowadays, get used to it.

Digna

Generally the OPs opinions are my take as well. The ship to ship is the best part of the game, by far. The rest is clunky and tired. I was quite honestly surprised whenI played. It didn't seem possible that such a potentailly good title (STAR TREK) could end up as such a mess of a game. I suppose that  the fault lies with a flawed core. Build from a bad foundation and you end up with a shaky house at best...

caithleen

Originally posted by ste2000


No it won't be a fail.

Not for Cryptic at least.



They developed 2 games (Champions Online) with the same engine in less than 2 years (an average MMO takes 4 years)

They cut their costs a lot and they will sell at least 500K copies which means they will make a profit even if no one renew the subscripttion (which is unlikely).

Very true. Look at the marketing. People that didnt even played it are buying multiple copies for a single account to get the different pre order bonus. And on top the 240$ lifetimeaccount...

If they only fix the biggest issues and then stop development like it seems they are doing with CO they are realling running cheap and made big cash in advance.

 

ArcaSpiff

I like it.

Lobotomist

Sadest thing is not that instances are just small shoeboxes.

But that every tiny instance has loading time, and often very long loading time.

Even if its just a corridor with 2 rooms. Or tiny bubble of space with 2-3 asteroids and few ships.

phobic

Originally posted by ArcaSpiff


I like it.

Care to explain why? It's obvious a lot of people like the game but I haven't seen a single post as to why they like it other than "I'm having fun." Obviously, you like it if you're having fun but why? Show us the good side of STO (bonus points if you can do it without using the word "potential".' I'm just curious to see a positive review as in depth as the negative ones for a change.

 

Dojen

Originally posted by ste2000


Only Indie developers make decent MMORPG nowadays, get used to it.

 

No! I will not get used to it. It's a thoughtless, lemming response. Insurance companies did not have to take customers with pre existing conditions. Should we have gotten used to that? We didn't and now they have to insure those people. Get used to it? What a mindless thing to say.

 

nikoliath

Originally posted by Dojen


Regardless of its' Open Beta state, it's painfully obvious STO is an unfinished game that is also very badly designed. It will retail on Feb 2, and fail shortly thereafter. Why? Get an Open Beta key and check out STO yourself.
Yes, it appears unfinished, unpolished.  Badly designed? I do not agree.
There is no feel for the vastness of space. You are put in a "Matrix" style shoebox (sector space) with doors that lead to other shoeboxes with other doors. Open a door in "shoebox space" and you are in a very spatially small and limited system, usually doing a mission. These systems are made cookie cutter style: same suns, same planets, same asteroids, different colors. While there is some sense of space here, that's it. There's no escape from the system to another place in space unless you go back to the shoebox.
What do you suggest? You do realise how vast space really is yes? And that for the most part it contains nothing? How do YOU think they could have overcome the problem better?
Elite/Frontier, X3 etc have the luxury of being single player, so that you can manipulate time - something you can not do in an MMO. EvE online is simple "shoe boxes" strung together, using cut n paste backdrops. Where exactly would you like to escape from and to?
In sector space there's no looking up/down/sideways at the sky and seeing the vastness of space. You look around and see a shoebox/chessboard. There's no warping through space. You knock on a door in a shoebox and you watch the "loading bar": that's how you warp. It's also not Sandbox; so much for immersion and player interaction. It's a heavily instanced (on the cheap) arcade game with a single player feel.
 
Please elaborate how YOU would have overcome the complexity of delivering a VAST infinite universe that allows seemless exploration by thousands of players in real time? If you want to sit and watch stars glide by for hours on end as you traverse the vastness of space all the power to you.
The Federation has boring and frequently "wow, they were lazy," rinse and repeat PvE missions and AI crippled NPCs. They can do consensual PvP as well.
This is a frequent complaint about the genre as a whole. But I am confident that any mission you could come up with will be seen as equally "boring" and generic by another person.
Klingons are (consensual) PvP only. There is no Klingon PvE content to speak of. That wouldn't be bad  in itself (as I like PvP), but the PvP is limited to "arenas" (think of an even smaller system) where you queue up to play (8 to 20 players total). There's  no open PvP or RvR although we are guaranteed it will be "brought up" at developer meetings later. Yeah, bring up giving me a million bucks while you're at it.
Only time will tell what the devs will bring to the title. RvR would have been great, but unless done properly guess what you would have complained about? Ahh yes "meaningless". I do not think it required that every title that includes PvP should do so on the same level as darkfall, anymore than darkfall should have fenced off safe PvE zones.
Surpisingly, the ship to ship (PvP) combat is fairly complex and intriguing. You are allowed Bridge Officers (BOs) and they come with a variety of interesting skills that you can mix and match. Although the skills need to be defined better (what the heck does this skill "really" do?), one can see that thought was put into this part of the game. Although presently unbalanced to favor the Federation, things (PvP) will probably change. If Cryptic decides to cop out as they did in Champs Online, it won't change. But I must say that I might continue playing the game after beta despite itself because I currently am intrigued by the (consensual) PvP ship to ship combat complexity. That part of the game is decent but you can only play so much before it becomes stale. They need to add contested zones, resources, player built stations and the like and make it open RvR (Klingons have consensual HvH--House vs House PvP) to give it some fresh air (perhaps a tough thing to do given the limitations of the engine). They also need to make space 3D. While you can go up or down at a 45 degree angle, that just doesn't cut it in PvP since the Klingons have a very small firing arc, whereas the Feds can fire in a very large arc. Full 3D movement will go a long way to appease many PvPers. It's a space game, right?
PvP ground combat is horrible. You feel like you're fighting in a cage (to a great degree). All (with any sense and experience) agree here, so no point in me rehashing that. Play the Open Beta if you don't believe me.
The consensual PvP is rather odd since the Federation is at war with the Klingons. Cryptic decided to spare those trekkers new to MMOs from some sort of open RvR/PvP in all areas where it should logically be implemented (the Neutral Zone comes to mind). Bad decision; they might have liked it. They assumed correctly that most people would play the Federation, and that faction actually has PvE content. They are determined to care for the bears until they leave. If they had a few servers dedicated to open PvP/RvR/HvH I wouldn't mind, but as there is only a single server, well, you see the problem.
However, I see no hope for this game in the long run. The design is flawed and can't be fixed, and they are putting out a game 3 years early. This will be an Epic Fail.
 
Maybe, maybe not.



I am not claiming your opinions to be any more valid than mine. I'm simply countering some of yours and asking the question, what would you have suggested?
The actual state of the game is concerning with 2 weeks to go, missions are bugged, server is unstable, quest chat sometimes seems to loop over, avatar bugs etc. I think alot of these will be present after launch, I do not believe in miracle patches so late in the day.


On the flip side I have actually enjoyed what I have sampled so far. Combat is fun and I have to say the auto grouping feature is fantastic. You warp in and find yourself in a group, great no tedious "LFG" no "ohh where are you? I'm omw, I need a bio, oops doorbell i'll meet you there.


The fleet actions ( think public quests from WAR ) are also good ( when the objectives work ) and for me is a joy to watch a swarm of varying federation ships engaged in battle.....very star trek.


If you want UO in a limitless enviroment where you can be Kirk or Picard and pick second star to the right, warp speed and find a unique location with an unscripted inteligent dynamic encounter, look elsewhere. If however, you like Trek, love firing phasers, photon torpedoes, boosting shields, balancing resources give this a go.
 
 
 

 

Shar

This is probably the number 1 complaint I have about STO - lack of scale and basic understanding of celestial mechanics.  Space lacks the correct sense of scale and feeling.  I was actually stunned that you never truly enter a "system."  Instead they are small play sets in close orbit of a planet, asteroid field or combination of the two.   Basic things like the sun just being a yellow globe, planets without rotation, no ability to explore even the Sol system left my mouth agape at the sheer failing of it to provide a sense of exploring the next frontier.  It is literally a plastic play mat where children can bash plastic toy spaceships against each other and try to imagine the reality of it.   Finally a new  MMO based mostly in space and they left out everything that makes it vast, terrifying, exciting and utterly magnificent.  It should inspire a sense of awe, even before the combat starts.



The only things that real space and space in STO have in common - the color black.

 

 

Shar

Originally posted by nikoliath

Originally posted by Dojen


Regardless of its' Open Beta state, it's painfully obvious STO is an unfinished game that is also very badly designed. It will retail on Feb 2, and fail shortly thereafter. Why? Get an Open Beta key and check out STO yourself.
Yes, it appears unfinished, unpolished.  Badly designed? I do not agree.
There is no feel for the vastness of space. You are put in a "Matrix" style shoebox (sector space) with doors that lead to other shoeboxes with other doors. Open a door in "shoebox space" and you are in a very spatially small and limited system, usually doing a mission. These systems are made cookie cutter style: same suns, same planets, same asteroids, different colors. While there is some sense of space here, that's it. There's no escape from the system to another place in space unless you go back to the shoebox.
What do you suggest? You do realise how vast space really is yes? And that for the most part it contains nothing? How do YOU think they could have overcome the problem better?
Elite/Frontier, X3 etc have the luxury of being single player, so that you can manipulate time - something you can not do in an MMO. EvE online is simple "shoe boxes" strung together, using cut n paste backdrops. Where exactly would you like to escape from and to?



At least flesh out a system - EvE style.  Planets, moons, belts, POI's. 


In sector space there's no looking up/down/sideways at the sky and seeing the vastness of space. You look around and see a shoebox/chessboard. There's no warping through space. You knock on a door in a shoebox and you watch the "loading bar": that's how you warp. It's also not Sandbox; so much for immersion and player interaction. It's a heavily instanced (on the cheap) arcade game with a single player feel.
 
Please elaborate how YOU would have overcome the complexity of delivering a VAST infinite universe that allows seemless exploration by thousands of players in real time? If you want to sit and watch stars glide by for hours on end as you traverse the vastness of space all the power to you.



Stellar cartography room or helm, choose destination, choose warp -> one loading screen, no driving around while in "warp."  Simply put, warp would be a "griffon ride" from one major destination to the next. Once in system you can use short jumps/warps to major system features like I mentioned above.  Scanners could allow the location of randomly generated POI's, etc.   EvE got it right, no reason to feel like it either can't be done or is so unique to EvE you can't copy them.


The Federation has boring and frequently "wow, they were lazy," rinse and repeat PvE missions and AI crippled NPCs. They can do consensual PvP as well.
This is a frequent complaint about the genre as a whole. But I am confident that any mission you could come up with will be seen as equally "boring" and generic by another person.



No real issue with this, I understand it is a limitation of the mechanics.  To overcome it would require a large dedicated content team working 24/7.  But maybe that is the future of games like this.  New systems and missions added almost daily by a content support team.  


Klingons are (consensual) PvP only. There is no Klingon PvE content to speak of. That wouldn't be bad  in itself (as I like PvP), but the PvP is limited to "arenas" (think of an even smaller system) where you queue up to play (8 to 20 players total). There's  no open PvP or RvR although we are guaranteed it will be "brought up" at developer meetings later. Yeah, bring up giving me a million bucks while you're at it.
Only time will tell what the devs will bring to the title. RvR would have been great, but unless done properly guess what you would have complained about? Ahh yes "meaningless". I do not think it required that every title that includes PvP should do so on the same level as darkfall, anymore than darkfall should have fenced off safe PvE zones.
Surpisingly, the ship to ship (PvP) combat is fairly complex and intriguing. You are allowed Bridge Officers (BOs) and they come with a variety of interesting skills that you can mix and match. Although the skills need to be defined better (what the heck does this skill "really" do?), one can see that thought was put into this part of the game. Although presently unbalanced to favor the Federation, things (PvP) will probably change. If Cryptic decides to cop out as they did in Champs Online, it won't change. But I must say that I might continue playing the game after beta despite itself because I currently am intrigued by the (consensual) PvP ship to ship combat complexity. That part of the game is decent but you can only play so much before it becomes stale. They need to add contested zones, resources, player built stations and the like and make it open RvR (Klingons have consensual HvH--House vs House PvP) to give it some fresh air (perhaps a tough thing to do given the limitations of the engine). They also need to make space 3D. While you can go up or down at a 45 degree angle, that just doesn't cut it in PvP since the Klingons have a very small firing arc, whereas the Feds can fire in a very large arc. Full 3D movement will go a long way to appease many PvPers. It's a space game, right?
PvP ground combat is horrible. You feel like you're fighting in a cage (to a great degree). All (with any sense and experience) agree here, so no point in me rehashing that. Play the Open Beta if you don't believe me.
The consensual PvP is rather odd since the Federation is at war with the Klingons. Cryptic decided to spare those trekkers new to MMOs from some sort of open RvR/PvP in all areas where it should logically be implemented (the Neutral Zone comes to mind). Bad decision; they might have liked it. They assumed correctly that most people would play the Federation, and that faction actually has PvE content. They are determined to care for the bears until they leave. If they had a few servers dedicated to open PvP/RvR/HvH I wouldn't mind, but as there is only a single server, well, you see the problem.
However, I see no hope for this game in the long run. The design is flawed and can't be fixed, and they are putting out a game 3 years early. This will be an Epic Fail.
 
Maybe, maybe not.



I am not claiming your opinions to be any more valid than mine. I'm simply countering some of yours and asking the question, what would you have suggested?
The actual state of the game is concerning with 2 weeks to go, missions are bugged, server is unstable, quest chat sometimes seems to loop over, avatar bugs etc. I think alot of these will be present after launch, I do not believe in miracle patches so late in the day.


On the flip side I have actually enjoyed what I have sampled so far. Combat is fun and I have to say the auto grouping feature is fantastic. You warp in and find yourself in a group, great no tedious "LFG" no "ohh where are you? I'm omw, I need a bio, oops doorbell i'll meet you there.


The fleet actions ( think public quests from WAR ) are also good ( when the objectives work ) and for me is a joy to watch a swarm of varying federation ships engaged in battle.....very star trek.


If you want UO in a limitless enviroment where you can be Kirk or Picard and pick second star to the right, warp speed and find a unique location with an unscripted inteligent dynamic encounter, look elsewhere. If however, you like Trek, love firing phasers, photon torpedoes, boosting shields, balancing resources give this a go.
Or you can play a game from 2002 called Bridge Commander and get most of that along with a better sense of ship scale, combat and freedom.  It's 2010,  simply put - Star Trek deserved better.  I won't lie, there are some greatly enjoyable moments in STO, but I find no sense of awe or anything that seems to really connect with the fanbase. 
 
 
 

 

 

Dojen

Originally posted by nikoliath

Originally posted by Dojen


Regardless of its' Open Beta state, it's painfully obvious STO is an unfinished game that is also very badly designed. It will retail on Feb 2, and fail shortly thereafter. Why? Get an Open Beta key and check out STO yourself.
Yes, it appears unfinished, unpolished.  Badly designed? I do not agree.
There is no feel for the vastness of space. You are put in a "Matrix" style shoebox (sector space) with doors that lead to other shoeboxes with other doors. Open a door in "shoebox space" and you are in a very spatially small and limited system, usually doing a mission. These systems are made cookie cutter style: same suns, same planets, same asteroids, different colors. While there is some sense of space here, that's it. There's no escape from the system to another place in space unless you go back to the shoebox.
What do you suggest? You do realise how vast space really is yes? And that for the most part it contains nothing? How do YOU think they could have overcome the problem better?
Elite/Frontier, X3 etc have the luxury of being single player, so that you can manipulate time - something you can not do in an MMO. EvE online is simple "shoe boxes" strung together, using cut n paste backdrops. Where exactly would you like to escape from and to?
In sector space there's no looking up/down/sideways at the sky and seeing the vastness of space. You look around and see a shoebox/chessboard. There's no warping through space. You knock on a door in a shoebox and you watch the "loading bar": that's how you warp. It's also not Sandbox; so much for immersion and player interaction. It's a heavily instanced (on the cheap) arcade game with a single player feel.
 
Please elaborate how YOU would have overcome the complexity of delivering a VAST infinite universe that allows seemless exploration by thousands of players in real time? If you want to sit and watch stars glide by for hours on end as you traverse the vastness of space all the power to you.
The Federation has boring and frequently "wow, they were lazy," rinse and repeat PvE missions and AI crippled NPCs. They can do consensual PvP as well.
This is a frequent complaint about the genre as a whole. But I am confident that any mission you could come up with will be seen as equally "boring" and generic by another person.
Klingons are (consensual) PvP only. There is no Klingon PvE content to speak of. That wouldn't be bad  in itself (as I like PvP), but the PvP is limited to "arenas" (think of an even smaller system) where you queue up to play (8 to 20 players total). There's  no open PvP or RvR although we are guaranteed it will be "brought up" at developer meetings later. Yeah, bring up giving me a million bucks while you're at it.
Only time will tell what the devs will bring to the title. RvR would have been great, but unless done properly guess what you would have complained about? Ahh yes "meaningless". I do not think it required that every title that includes PvP should do so on the same level as darkfall, anymore than darkfall should have fenced off safe PvE zones.
Surpisingly, the ship to ship (PvP) combat is fairly complex and intriguing. You are allowed Bridge Officers (BOs) and they come with a variety of interesting skills that you can mix and match. Although the skills need to be defined better (what the heck does this skill "really" do?), one can see that thought was put into this part of the game. Although presently unbalanced to favor the Federation, things (PvP) will probably change. If Cryptic decides to cop out as they did in Champs Online, it won't change. But I must say that I might continue playing the game after beta despite itself because I currently am intrigued by the (consensual) PvP ship to ship combat complexity. That part of the game is decent but you can only play so much before it becomes stale. They need to add contested zones, resources, player built stations and the like and make it open RvR (Klingons have consensual HvH--House vs House PvP) to give it some fresh air (perhaps a tough thing to do given the limitations of the engine). They also need to make space 3D. While you can go up or down at a 45 degree angle, that just doesn't cut it in PvP since the Klingons have a very small firing arc, whereas the Feds can fire in a very large arc. Full 3D movement will go a long way to appease many PvPers. It's a space game, right?
PvP ground combat is horrible. You feel like you're fighting in a cage (to a great degree). All (with any sense and experience) agree here, so no point in me rehashing that. Play the Open Beta if you don't believe me.
The consensual PvP is rather odd since the Federation is at war with the Klingons. Cryptic decided to spare those trekkers new to MMOs from some sort of open RvR/PvP in all areas where it should logically be implemented (the Neutral Zone comes to mind). Bad decision; they might have liked it. They assumed correctly that most people would play the Federation, and that faction actually has PvE content. They are determined to care for the bears until they leave. If they had a few servers dedicated to open PvP/RvR/HvH I wouldn't mind, but as there is only a single server, well, you see the problem.
However, I see no hope for this game in the long run. The design is flawed and can't be fixed, and they are putting out a game 3 years early. This will be an Epic Fail.
 
Maybe, maybe not.



I am not claiming your opinions to be any more valid than mine. I'm simply countering some of yours and asking the question, what would you have suggested?
The actual state of the game is concerning with 2 weeks to go, missions are bugged, server is unstable, quest chat sometimes seems to loop over, avatar bugs etc. I think alot of these will be present after launch, I do not believe in miracle patches so late in the day.


On the flip side I have actually enjoyed what I have sampled so far. Combat is fun and I have to say the auto grouping feature is fantastic. You warp in and find yourself in a group, great no tedious "LFG" no "ohh where are you? I'm omw, I need a bio, oops doorbell i'll meet you there.


The fleet actions ( think public quests from WAR ) are also good ( when the objectives work ) and for me is a joy to watch a swarm of varying federation ships engaged in battle.....very star trek.


If you want UO in a limitless enviroment where you can be Kirk or Picard and pick second star to the right, warp speed and find a unique location with an unscripted inteligent dynamic encounter, look elsewhere. If however, you like Trek, love firing phasers, photon torpedoes, boosting shields, balancing resources give this a go.
 
 
 

 

 

Well, let's see. Asheron's Call did a pretty good job of making you believe you were in a big world. In fact, you were. Dereth was huge. EQ, though I hated other things about it, did the same. Sure, there were zones, but you felt like you were moving in/through space (whether space on a land mass or space in space is immaterial).

Anarchy Online gave a pretty good illusion of traveling through space. Dark Age of Camelot, same. SWG, hey, 3D space here. LoTRO, same. Wow, same. And so forth.

So how would I do it? If I were CBS I would have spoken with the creators of those games. I'm sure they'd know how to implement a proper X Y and Z axis. Now I'm not writing about creating a galaxy sized universe. Just one that gives that illusion. You know, like EVE Online? EVE Online gives one the illusion of vast space. STO literally puts you on a chess/checkerboard. And I mean a real chess/checkerboard. That's just lazy and sloppy and looks like hell. Do you concur?

 

 

nikoliath

Originally posted by Shar


This is probably the number 1 complaint I have about STO - lack of scale and basic understanding of celestial mechanics.  Space lacks the correct sense of scale and feeling.  I was actually stunned that you never truly enter a "system."  Instead they are small play sets in close orbit of a planet, asteroid field or combination of the two.   Basic things like the sun just being a yellow globe, planets without rotation, no ability to explore even the Sol system left my mouth agape at the sheer failing of it to provide a sense of exploring the next frontier.  It is literally a plastic play mat where children can bash plastic toy spaceships against each other and try to imagine the reality of it.   Finally a new  MMO based mostly in space and they left out everything that makes it vast, terrifying, exciting and utterly magnificent.  It should inspire a sense of awe, even before the combat starts.



The only things that real space and space in STO have in common - the color black.
 
 

so basically you want more distance between stuff and the ability to fly to pluto and back? To what end?. Lack of scale? If anything I get a far better sense of scale here than I ever have from EvE. The planets look big, the ship scale makes sense.

 

this wont be for everyone, especially given the IP and what it means to different people.

EricDanie

Originally posted by nikoliath

Originally posted by Shar


This is probably the number 1 complaint I have about STO - lack of scale and basic understanding of celestial mechanics.  Space lacks the correct sense of scale and feeling.  I was actually stunned that you never truly enter a "system."  Instead they are small play sets in close orbit of a planet, asteroid field or combination of the two.   Basic things like the sun just being a yellow globe, planets without rotation, no ability to explore even the Sol system left my mouth agape at the sheer failing of it to provide a sense of exploring the next frontier.  It is literally a plastic play mat where children can bash plastic toy spaceships against each other and try to imagine the reality of it.   Finally a new  MMO based mostly in space and they left out everything that makes it vast, terrifying, exciting and utterly magnificent.  It should inspire a sense of awe, even before the combat starts.



The only things that real space and space in STO have in common - the color black.
 
 

so basically you want more distance between stuff and the ability to fly to pluto and back? To what end?. Lack of scale? If anything I get a far better sense of scale here than I ever have from EvE. The planets look big, the ship scale makes sense.

 

this wont be for everyone, especially given the IP and what it means to different people.

Um, it's not all about combat you know. There should be some random exploration in and there, not this 100% mission-driven content, the areas we visit themselves are merely a small portion of the real thing, exclusively related to the mission.

That's not impressive after all, with such a small development time, no wonder they didn't have the time to develop open areas and had to stick with the instanced and limited areas.

brenth

I agree with the origional poster in that   STO in its current form is a insulting dissapointment and yet another bastardization of  Mr. Roddenberry's vision

they cheapened the game at every point  hell they dont even have all the planets in the SOL system  just the earth the moon and the sun    and theres not even a star fleet acadamy to beem down to.

what STO looks like to me is a reskinned  city of heroes   full of cheap and boring  instances and  a steaming pile of  hack and slash that you quickly get bored of.

will it make money?  sure... it is star trek...  will it be a great game  probably never  as we all know  developers do the same thing  buy now, fix later, luv you long time.

what really irkes me the most is this particular property  had the MOST potential  for imbeded learning,,  players should have been exploring  and scanning   and collecting all sorts of  real or psuto real  information  (scan venus and you should have gotten a readout about  size and gravity ect   but this is not to be

what you end up with is rather small arena style combat  this is not even as good as earth & beyond and they actually failed!

 

Drachasor

Originally posted by nikoliath

Originally posted by Shar


This is probably the number 1 complaint I have about STO - lack of scale and basic understanding of celestial mechanics.  Space lacks the correct sense of scale and feeling.  I was actually stunned that you never truly enter a "system."  Instead they are small play sets in close orbit of a planet, asteroid field or combination of the two.   Basic things like the sun just being a yellow globe, planets without rotation, no ability to explore even the Sol system left my mouth agape at the sheer failing of it to provide a sense of exploring the next frontier.  It is literally a plastic play mat where children can bash plastic toy spaceships against each other and try to imagine the reality of it.   Finally a new  MMO based mostly in space and they left out everything that makes it vast, terrifying, exciting and utterly magnificent.  It should inspire a sense of awe, even before the combat starts.



The only things that real space and space in STO have in common - the color black.
 
 

so basically you want more distance between stuff and the ability to fly to pluto and back? To what end?. Lack of scale? If anything I get a far better sense of scale here than I ever have from EvE. The planets look big, the ship scale makes sense.

 

this wont be for everyone, especially given the IP and what it means to different people.

To what end?  Large list there.  Immersion, being able to use the atmosphere of planets, asteroids, and other phenomenon to your advantage (heck, even the star), make the galaxy feel larger rather than just a bunch of little rooms, the simple fun of exploring, etc.

 

ive82syko

I personally like it, sure doesn't seem like a sandbox like eve, but its still decent. Lots of bugs? Of course, thats why its beta. Not to mention this isn't the full game. What you see is simply for testing purposes. I don't know why some people go into a beta expecting a full finished game.

When I go into a beta I expect a half-assed buggy game. Devs want my feed back and bug reports to help them improve. Unfortunately what the devs get are a bunch of rage/quit retards who act like they've never been an MMO beta before.

But I guess thats life, what can you do?  

Dojen

Originally posted by ive82syko


I personally like it, sure doesn't seem like a sandbox like eve, but its still decent. Lots of bugs? Of course, thats why its beta. Not to mention this isn't the full game. What you see is simply for testing purposes. I don't know why some people go into a beta expecting a full finished game.
When I go into a beta I expect a half-assed buggy game. Devs want my feed back and bug reports to help them improve. Unfortunately what the devs get are a bunch of rage/quit retards who act like they've never been an MMO beta before.
But I guess thats life, what can you do?  

 

And you think they will fix this in 2 weeks? Magical thinking me boy, magical thinking.

[Mod Edit]

DLangley

Please avoid personal attacks against other users. Many of these threads lately have been going so far off topic it's ridiculous. Discuss the game and its positives/negatives, but remember that someone elses opinion might be very different from yours. Come up with constructive responses that do not attack the player but the post itself. If these flame/troll wars continue, threads will continue to get locked and deleted.

olepi

Originally posted by ive82syko


I personally like it, sure doesn't seem like a sandbox like eve, but its still decent. Lots of bugs? Of course, thats why its beta. Not to mention this isn't the full game. What you see is simply for testing purposes. I don't know why some people go into a beta expecting a full finished game.
When I go into a beta I expect a half-assed buggy game. Devs want my feed back and bug reports to help them improve. Unfortunately what the devs get are a bunch of rage/quit retards who act like they've never been an MMO beta before.
But I guess thats life, what can you do?  

 

The inherent contradiction in this is that they want you to pre-order a life-time subscription to the game BEFORE you can actually play the game. What we have today is a beta test version of part of the game, not the real game as you point out. So without being able to play the actual game, they require you to buy the lifetime subscription now?!? The offer is only good until you get to play the actual game? Sounds fishy ....

You only get the new-car special deal if you don't test drive the car first. Odd.

hidden1

Originally posted by olepi

Originally posted by ive82syko


I personally like it, sure doesn't seem like a sandbox like eve, but its still decent. Lots of bugs? Of course, thats why its beta. Not to mention this isn't the full game. What you see is simply for testing purposes. I don't know why some people go into a beta expecting a full finished game.
When I go into a beta I expect a half-assed buggy game. Devs want my feed back and bug reports to help them improve. Unfortunately what the devs get are a bunch of rage/quit retards who act like they've never been an MMO beta before.
But I guess thats life, what can you do?  

 

The inherent contradiction in this is that they want you to pre-order a life-time subscription to the game BEFORE you can actually play the game. What we have today is a beta test version of part of the game, not the real game as you point out. So without being able to play the actual game, they require you to buy the lifetime subscription now?!? The offer is only good until you get to play the actual game? Sounds fishy ....

You only get the new-car special deal if you don't test drive the car first. Odd.

Actually your paying to test drive the car first... which is even more odd.

 

Torak

Ok, here is my take in a nutshell.

This game is most like "Pirates of the Burning Seas" but with a Star Trek skin.

If you are one of the few who like that style, you will probably like this.

Cor4x

Originally posted by Torak


Ok, here is my take in a nutshell.
This game is most like "Pirates of the Burning Seas" but with a Star Trek skin.
If you are one of the few who like that style, you will probably like this.

 

I disagree. STO is most like POTBS:

01) Without boarding combat. If I could run-n-gun as a Klingon to a Feddie's bridge and BBBZZZTTT him to death, I would've suffered through anything else.

02) "Away Team" combat in POTBS showed more flexibility and scale. Albeit, not much there, but then there isn't much here either.

03) POTBS had a robust system for building my own ship and trading and land ownership. Yes, it was flawed from the beginning and that is why I canceled my preorder to POTBS.

04) POTBS had port battles and land ownership. You had a stake in the game and it could be "won" then reset. A WW 2 online system would've worked here if they'd have modeled the general war.

05) POTBS had greater tactical combat options at least in single player. The line of ships of the line was silly, but that's actually accurate. There will be standardized fleet battles in STO, but who is going to care?

So, to sum up: STO is most like POTBS-lite. In addition, the missions & town structures in POTBS were much more fun. I played EVERY mission in POTBS.

Oh oh. And POTBS had THREE factions, including pirate. Introduce the Orion pirates and let them raid ships / bases / planets in both sectors and let the Klingons and Feds stop them. Woohoo wouldn't that've been fun?

Anyway, STO is a disappointment and POTBS, flawed as it is, doesn't deserve to be brought down to STO's level.

And yes, POTBS had all of this at launch.

 

ive82syko

Originally posted by olepi

Originally posted by ive82syko


I personally like it, sure doesn't seem like a sandbox like eve, but its still decent. Lots of bugs? Of course, thats why its beta. Not to mention this isn't the full game. What you see is simply for testing purposes. I don't know why some people go into a beta expecting a full finished game.
When I go into a beta I expect a half-assed buggy game. Devs want my feed back and bug reports to help them improve. Unfortunately what the devs get are a bunch of rage/quit retards who act like they've never been an MMO beta before.
But I guess thats life, what can you do?  

 

The inherent contradiction in this is that they want you to pre-order a life-time subscription to the game BEFORE you can actually play the game. What we have today is a beta test version of part of the game, not the real game as you point out. So without being able to play the actual game, they require you to buy the lifetime subscription now?!? The offer is only good until you get to play the actual game? Sounds fishy ....

You only get the new-car special deal if you don't test drive the car first. Odd.

I find that to be kinda weird myself. Why would anyone drop nearly 300 bucks on a lifetime sub for a game they haven't fully experienced yet? But I wouldn't be surprised if some people already did. 

Rydeson

Originally posted by nikoliath

Originally posted by Dojen


Regardless of its' Open Beta state, it's painfully obvious STO is an unfinished game that is also very badly designed. It will retail on Feb 2, and fail shortly thereafter. Why? Get an Open Beta key and check out STO yourself.
Yes, it appears unfinished, unpolished.  Badly designed? I do not agree.
There is no feel for the vastness of space. You are put in a "Matrix" style shoebox (sector space) with doors that lead to other shoeboxes with other doors. Open a door in "shoebox space" and you are in a very spatially small and limited system, usually doing a mission. These systems are made cookie cutter style: same suns, same planets, same asteroids, different colors. While there is some sense of space here, that's it. There's no escape from the system to another place in space unless you go back to the shoebox.
What do you suggest? You do realise how vast space really is yes? And that for the most part it contains nothing? How do YOU think they could have overcome the problem better?
Elite/Frontier, X3 etc have the luxury of being single player, so that you can manipulate time - something you can not do in an MMO. EvE online is simple "shoe boxes" strung together, using cut n paste backdrops. Where exactly would you like to escape from and to?
Best way IMO would be to have open flowing zones, NO zoning.. Going from star system to star system could of been as easy as flying from flight master to flight master, ONLY with the ability to drop out of warp if you see some action along the way..  If you have played WoW, then imagine flying around the Barrens using full  impulse (running speed) or warping (100 mount speed).. Using automated warp (flying speed) from star system to star system would be at 280 speed.. Each flight master could of been your destination to "beam" down to the planet..  Each zone could of had scattered events and targets, or anything else you wanted to explore.. the options could of been endless, seamless and undisturbed with "loading please wait".. lol
In sector space there's no looking up/down/sideways at the sky and seeing the vastness of space. You look around and see a shoebox/chessboard. There's no warping through space. You knock on a door in a shoebox and you watch the "loading bar": that's how you warp. It's also not Sandbox; so much for immersion and player interaction. It's a heavily instanced (on the cheap) arcade game with a single player feel.
 
Please elaborate how YOU would have overcome the complexity of delivering a VAST infinite universe that allows seemless exploration by thousands of players in real time? If you want to sit and watch stars glide by for hours on end as you traverse the vastness of space all the power to you. (read above)


The Federation has boring and frequently "wow, they were lazy," rinse and repeat PvE missions and AI crippled NPCs. They can do consensual PvP as well.
This is a frequent complaint about the genre as a whole. But I am confident that any mission you could come up with will be seen as equally "boring" and generic by another person. (having only federation PvE and no Klingon is just plain lazy and imcomplete.. I can't imagine WoW not having any horde PvE content)


Klingons are (consensual) PvP only. There is no Klingon PvE content to speak of. That wouldn't be bad  in itself (as I like PvP), but the PvP is limited to "arenas" (think of an even smaller system) where you queue up to play (8 to 20 players total). There's  no open PvP or RvR although we are guaranteed it will be "brought up" at developer meetings later. Yeah, bring up giving me a million bucks while you're at it.
Only time will tell what the devs will bring to the title. RvR would have been great, but unless done properly guess what you would have complained about? Ahh yes "meaningless". I do not think it required that every title that includes PvP should do so on the same level as darkfall, anymore than darkfall should have fenced off safe PvE zones.
Surpisingly, the ship to ship (PvP) combat is fairly complex and intriguing. You are allowed Bridge Officers (BOs) and they come with a variety of interesting skills that you can mix and match. Although the skills need to be defined better (what the heck does this skill "really" do?), one can see that thought was put into this part of the game. Although presently unbalanced to favor the Federation, things (PvP) will probably change. If Cryptic decides to cop out as they did in Champs Online, it won't change. But I must say that I might continue playing the game after beta despite itself because I currently am intrigued by the (consensual) PvP ship to ship combat complexity. That part of the game is decent but you can only play so much before it becomes stale. They need to add contested zones, resources, player built stations and the like and make it open RvR (Klingons have consensual HvH--House vs House PvP) to give it some fresh air (perhaps a tough thing to do given the limitations of the engine). They also need to make space 3D. While you can go up or down at a 45 degree angle, that just doesn't cut it in PvP since the Klingons have a very small firing arc, whereas the Feds can fire in a very large arc. Full 3D movement will go a long way to appease many PvPers. It's a space game, right?
PvP ground combat is horrible. You feel like you're fighting in a cage (to a great degree). All (with any sense and experience) agree here, so no point in me rehashing that. Play the Open Beta if you don't believe me.
The consensual PvP is rather odd since the Federation is at war with the Klingons. Cryptic decided to spare those trekkers new to MMOs from some sort of open RvR/PvP in all areas where it should logically be implemented (the Neutral Zone comes to mind). Bad decision; they might have liked it. They assumed correctly that most people would play the Federation, and that faction actually has PvE content. They are determined to care for the bears until they leave. If they had a few servers dedicated to open PvP/RvR/HvH I wouldn't mind, but as there is only a single server, well, you see the problem.
However, I see no hope for this game in the long run. The design is flawed and can't be fixed, and they are putting out a game 3 years early. This will be an Epic Fail.
 
Maybe, maybe not.



I am not claiming your opinions to be any more valid than mine. I'm simply countering some of yours and asking the question, what would you have suggested?
The actual state of the game is concerning with 2 weeks to go, missions are bugged, server is unstable, quest chat sometimes seems to loop over, avatar bugs etc. I think alot of these will be present after launch, I do not believe in miracle patches so late in the day.


On the flip side I have actually enjoyed what I have sampled so far. Combat is fun and I have to say the auto grouping feature is fantastic. You warp in and find yourself in a group, great no tedious "LFG" no "ohh where are you? I'm omw, I need a bio, oops doorbell i'll meet you there.


The fleet actions ( think public quests from WAR ) are also good ( when the objectives work ) and for me is a joy to watch a swarm of varying federation ships engaged in battle.....very star trek.


If you want UO in a limitless enviroment where you can be Kirk or Picard and pick second star to the right, warp speed and find a unique location with an unscripted inteligent dynamic encounter, look elsewhere. If however, you like Trek, love firing phasers, photon torpedoes, boosting shields, balancing resources give this a go.
 
 
 

 

 

Because this game is only a glorified single player game with limited online abilities.. I"ll save my money for something more..