Way too many arm-chair game producerss here, if anyone feels that they can make a better game, then by all means do so. Been playing since pong and the new titles are right where they are suppose to be. Perhaps the problem is in the players as can be seen in most of the threads, one player claims hardcore that loves gamex while the others complain of gamex problems.
I am amused by the whining of players who speak of innovation in gaming yet, do not participate in creating one that they think is better. Go ahead and give it a go, get to school to learn how to create, get the cash to create and make a game. I am positive that you will have all the assist you could possibly want when you got into alpha, plenty of know-it-alls waiting to tell you how to make you game in fourms. Bottm line, my opinion, there are those who talk the talk and limited individuals who walk the walk.
So this second "proven method" (the featureset) is no longer what people want when it comes to stamping out WOW clones. A game similar to WOW still has to be different in significant ways to trick people into enjoying the same core patterns again.
Which is easy. Change the combat system, change how crafting works, have a meaningful story, make quests more in-depth, and change the way character progression works, even if only slightly (from leveling classes to leveling skills/weapons/whatever). That should be enough to make the new game feel like a new experience.
But developers don't want to go even this far.
Well completely developing a new combat system isn't exactly "easy", considering the new system has to be developed to be at least as fun as the existing one.
"Change the combat system" rolls off the tongue as easily as "Hey dudes, make me a pyramid!" rolled off a pharoah's tongue back in the day. But saying and doing are completely different things.
I agree, innovating these aspects is the way for developers to differentiate themselves and be successful, but it eats up a very large portion of dev time to make new systems fun (usually to the detriment of other parts of the game.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The main problem is that while players CLAIM they won't innovation they don't, really. They want steady evolution and will not touch anything really different to what they're familiar with. Hell, quite a few wrote off Mortal Online *only* on the basis of FPV, simply because it'd feel weird to them.
And combat systems? AoC has, hands down, best melee combat system in MMOs at the moment [sorry DF fans, I don't even consider flailing your sword wildly to be a 'system']. And yet many players stay away from the game, or from melee classes, because it requires too much work and is too different from the usual EQ/WoW combat system.
Such is the human condition.
The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.
This interview with American McGee (of Alice fame) hits perfectly upon my thoughts on innovation. The term "small innovations" gets tossed around, as does the concept of being wise about where you choose to innovate. That's exactly what I've tried to convey in my posts here.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
This interview with American McGee (of Alice fame) hits perfectly upon my thoughts on innovation. The term "small innovations" gets tossed around, as does the concept of being wise about where you choose to innovate. That's exactly what I've tried to convey in my posts here.
American McGee is huge on "small innovations." It's pretty evident with his Grimm series. It's a masterpiece when looked at from one angle...and an abomination when looked at from another.
However, Alice and Scrapland are two of my favorite games.
...on the other handdd...after finally finding Bad Day L.A. and being rather excited because it took me ages to find it...the game kind of...well, stunk like the hobo that was the main character.
also....copy pasted a post i did from a couple days ago.
if the basic components of an MMORPG are A B & C and another mmo tries to be innovative and fail, it is usually because they replaced either A B or C with E G or P and it looks like A B E or G or P. Get it? Innovation is not about replacing what already is, it's about improving or adding something new without removing A B or C you add D E and F and boom you've set the new standard, in order to be noticed you will now have to make another game that at the very least contain A B C D E F. That is why "innovation" today sucks because no one is really being innovative.
Well completely developing a new combat system isn't exactly "easy", considering the new system has to be developed to be at least as fun as the existing one. "Change the combat system" rolls off the tongue as easily as "Hey dudes, make me a pyramid!" rolled off a pharoah's tongue back in the day. But saying and doing are completely different things. I agree, innovating these aspects is the way for developers to differentiate themselves and be successful, but it eats up a very large portion of dev time to make new systems fun (usually to the detriment of other parts of the game.)
It's not that hard either, that developers could use that as an excuse to not make one. Some companies excel at making different combat systems for every game they make.. it is really not as hard as making a pyramid.
You are right about the fact that creating these systems will take up time from other aspects of the game, but that's a setback we have to live with. Do you want more races and ability to customize your fingernail color, or something to make the game actually fun? Do you want better graphics than before, or do you want to play a game that sucks you in for months? Do you want better customer service, or do you want to play a game that is fun 99% of the time, even though you might be disappointed with the GM's once in a blue moon? Do you want a perfect GUI, if you're bored of the game the minute you start it?
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Originally posted by BadMedicine And combat systems? AoC has, hands down, best melee combat system in MMOs at the moment [sorry DF fans, I don't even consider flailing your sword wildly to be a 'system']. And yet many players stay away from the game, or from melee classes, because it requires too much work and is too different from the usual EQ/WoW combat system.
Such is the human condition.
But even AOC's combat had been done before. It's basically Mortal Kombat (or any button mashing fighter) with the combo sequence shown for you.
I'd rather continue to see developers continue to slowly advance games to target long term "innovation" goals than everyone try to shoot the moon and all developer dollars vacate the system because the vast majority fail.
Do we really need MORE whining about failed games and lack of money for MMOs development?
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
And combat systems? AoC has, hands down, best melee combat system in MMOs at the moment [sorry DF fans, I don't even consider flailing your sword wildly to be a 'system']. And yet many players stay away from the game, or from melee classes, because it requires too much work and is too different from the usual EQ/WoW combat system.
Such is the human condition.
But even AOC's combat had been done before. It's basically Mortal Kombat (or any button mashing fighter) with the combo sequence shown for you.
Most combat systems will have been done before. However, they haven't been done in MMOs because MMOs have unique challenges that do not exist in any other genre. It is still innovation of the genre when some company solves the technical and acceptance difficulties.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Yes innovation is nowhere to be found.The last game to be truly innovative was FFXI and guess what game will be next?Yep Square Enix again with FXIV.Does it auto mean a good game nope,but at least they are trying,i applaud developers that at least try.Playing the exact same game just because it has a new skin is not for me,i need more than that.
Developers make me laugh with their usual "You can change the world" PR speech or our game is unique when it is not.I also get bummed out when i hear people praise a game because you get to play barbie doll dress up in the player customization.When you play these games it is all about the combat and class structure,how you do those two things is the most important thing to do.This is because combat is pretty much all you do in these games,and your class structure is what makes or breaks it.FFXI's sub class system was unbelievable i find it hard to accept any other game,also being able to play all class on the same player is another fundamental must.
Go figure FFXI was the game that also made your mount innovative and unique,you had to raise it from an egg,you didn't get it from some drop[lmao] or just buy it[RMT],you had to earn it and design it's traits.Geesh FFXI was and still is pretty much the ONLY game that uses team work,every other game is designed to be solo,so you get no chainskill combos.The FFXI Renkai system was again innovative,building TP [unique],Square Enix is obviously the ONE developer that knows how to think outside the box.
The problem is that ALL the developers are money hungry,if they feel a cheaper more streamline approach will make them more money,they will go for it.WOW may very well be the culprit,all developers look at WOW and think questing for free xp and solo play is the money maker.Unique games like FFXI come around once in a blue moon,however we can hope FFXIV sticks to Square's innovative ways and does not try too hard to cater to the WOW crowd,just to get more subs.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Way too many arm-chair game producerss here, if anyone feels that they can make a better game, then by all means do so. Been playing since pong and the new titles are right where they are suppose to be. Perhaps the problem is in the players as can be seen in most of the threads, one player claims hardcore that loves gamex while the others complain of gamex problems. I am amused by the whining of players who speak of innovation in gaming yet, do not participate in creating one that they think is better. Go ahead and give it a go, get to school to learn how to create, get the cash to create and make a game. I am positive that you will have all the assist you could possibly want when you got into alpha, plenty of know-it-alls waiting to tell you how to make you game in fourms. Bottm line, my opinion, there are those who talk the talk and limited individuals who walk the walk.
DDO had the best quest content to date and a fine hack n' slash combat system, first of it's kind, and yet remained unnoticed until it went F2P.
Tabula Rasa was one of the first to do FPSMMO combat, even if it was a shell of the real thing, and it didn't do well - nor would it compared to games that are really doing it now.
Indie games like LOVE and Wurm do things that are unimaginable in other games, but will never be taken seriously because of the graphics or lack of a big name studio backing it.
-------No matter how awesome the innovation you achieve, people are not going to care because they focus on the "little things" more than what they are really looking for. "Best combat ever? Well I don't like all the instances." A handful of amazing features simply does not make up for anything these days, people have expectations that far exceed the tech limits of the genre, and they tend to scream for something new when anything foreign to them ends up turning them off. The blame lies solely on the consumer for not knowing a) what he really wants, nor b) what is even possible.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Way too many arm-chair game producerss here, if anyone feels that they can make a better game, then by all means do so. Been playing since pong and the new titles are right where they are suppose to be. Perhaps the problem is in the players as can be seen in most of the threads, one player claims hardcore that loves gamex while the others complain of gamex problems. I am amused by the whining of players who speak of innovation in gaming yet, do not participate in creating one that they think is better. Go ahead and give it a go, get to school to learn how to create, get the cash to create and make a game. I am positive that you will have all the assist you could possibly want when you got into alpha, plenty of know-it-alls waiting to tell you how to make you game in fourms. Bottm line, my opinion, there are those who talk the talk and limited individuals who walk the walk.
Simply because its too expensive now. When you have a 5 million dollar project, you have a visionary, a designer, a gifted artist run the show, because its a small risk, and because on that budget, he likely cant blow it on a bad decision.
If you got a 50 million dollar project, you ll have some sort of manager, external talent or financial wiz leading it, because its considered common sense that these people are always the most capable, talented and competent at doing such stuff.
Unfortunately, that means your 50 dollar project is going to minimize risk for maximized gain. And that, in return, means no innovation.
Also, innovation alone doesnt make a good game. As we have seen the past years, the modern audience is demanding as hell, and fickle too. They want innovation, but dont want to miss features and quality that they have grown accustomed to in the mean time.
Basically, for a standard game, you copy the market leader, alter one or two things you believe will sell better, and adapt it a little to your budget.
For an innovative game, you not only need to come up with great new concepts, you then have to offer the whole package of graphics, known standard features, polish, balance and content which the other game only needs to copy, whereas you dont get cut any slack for trying something new. Because once the "new" wears off (see TCoS, Age of Conan, Tabula Rasa etc.), people will just leave going to those games who deliver the same old, same old, but enough of it.
In the end, content and quality trumps innovation and originality in the long run, and budgets just are not big enough for indie developers to get both.
Way too many arm-chair game producerss here, if anyone feels that they can make a better game, then by all means do so. Been playing since pong and the new titles are right where they are suppose to be. Perhaps the problem is in the players as can be seen in most of the threads, one player claims hardcore that loves gamex while the others complain of gamex problems. I am amused by the whining of players who speak of innovation in gaming yet, do not participate in creating one that they think is better. Go ahead and give it a go, get to school to learn how to create, get the cash to create and make a game. I am positive that you will have all the assist you could possibly want when you got into alpha, plenty of know-it-alls waiting to tell you how to make you game in fourms. Bottm line, my opinion, there are those who talk the talk and limited individuals who walk the walk.
You a game developer?
I am, and I agree with seabeast.
I've done a few internships with game and other software companies. Sometimes when I'd talk with my manager the above was true. Lack of experience and understanding of the entire process was a serious problem to weeding out good ideas from bad. However, like my managers said this wasn't a bad thing. Once in a while I'd surprise them with very workable ideas that their experienced mind was not capable of thinking of. It really takes both kinds.
Got some papers and patents out of it, too bad I don't get any of the money ;p
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Way too many arm-chair game producerss here, if anyone feels that they can make a better game, then by all means do so. Been playing since pong and the new titles are right where they are suppose to be. Perhaps the problem is in the players as can be seen in most of the threads, one player claims hardcore that loves gamex while the others complain of gamex problems. I am amused by the whining of players who speak of innovation in gaming yet, do not participate in creating one that they think is better. Go ahead and give it a go, get to school to learn how to create, get the cash to create and make a game. I am positive that you will have all the assist you could possibly want when you got into alpha, plenty of know-it-alls waiting to tell you how to make you game in fourms. Bottm line, my opinion, there are those who talk the talk and limited individuals who walk the walk.
You a game developer?
I am, and I agree with seabeast.
You want to make changes and you can't.
Bottom line is, if you make sweeping changes they kick you out the door. Right?
The main problem is that while players CLAIM they won't innovation they don't, really. They want steady evolution and will not touch anything really different to what they're familiar with. Hell, quite a few wrote off Mortal Online *only* on the basis of FPV, simply because it'd feel weird to them. And combat systems? AoC has, hands down, best melee combat system in MMOs at the moment [sorry DF fans, I don't even consider flailing your sword wildly to be a 'system']. And yet many players stay away from the game, or from melee classes, because it requires too much work and is too different from the usual EQ/WoW combat system.
Such is the human condition.
I actually know quite a bit of people (me included) who enjoyed AoC's combat system and specifically would play melee classes because of it. I for one wish they'd applied something unique to the spellcasting system to (like drawing out the spell runes with the mouse or something along those lines). It had a few unique things about it that weren't specific to melee either like being able to use stamina to sprint, the stealth system, and doubletapping to provide dodge and other bonuses. The combat system was one of the best parts of AoC in my opinion. I think a lot of people specifically played AoC because it had an innovative combat system.
Let's face it, the main reason AoC didn't do well had nothing to do with it's combat system. The game was a mess lacking content that should have been completed at release, was bug ridden, had features listed on the box that didn't even make it into the game, had some terrible first few patches that broke more things than it fixed, had massive exploits and loads of people exploiting it without fear of getting banned, etc. There is a reason it took a huge plunge (http://www.mmodata.net) in sub numbers within a month or two's time.
Well completely developing a new combat system isn't exactly "easy", considering the new system has to be developed to be at least as fun as the existing one. "Change the combat system" rolls off the tongue as easily as "Hey dudes, make me a pyramid!" rolled off a pharoah's tongue back in the day. But saying and doing are completely different things. I agree, innovating these aspects is the way for developers to differentiate themselves and be successful, but it eats up a very large portion of dev time to make new systems fun (usually to the detriment of other parts of the game.)
It's not that hard either, that developers could use that as an excuse to not make one. Some companies excel at making different combat systems for every game they make.. it is really not as hard as making a pyramid.
You are right about the fact that creating these systems will take up time from other aspects of the game, but that's a setback we have to live with. Do you want more races and ability to customize your fingernail color, or something to make the game actually fun? Do you want better graphics than before, or do you want to play a game that sucks you in for months? Do you want better customer service, or do you want to play a game that is fun 99% of the time, even though you might be disappointed with the GM's once in a blue moon? Do you want a perfect GUI, if you're bored of the game the minute you start it?
Agreed.
And yeah, my pyramid comment was just about "saying vs. doing." The actual work involved in pyramids vs. games is several magnitudes different. :P
But yeah, it boils down to developers continually figuring out what players actually want and focusing on those features (which might include fingernail color...but almost certainly includes better gameplay.)
EDIT: It occurs to me that saying "better gameplay" is sort of like saying "let's make our product better". Useless because it states an obvious goal without stating any of the prerequisite factors necessary to make it a reality. All it does is narrow the desired improvement to gameplay (distinct from the artistic presentation or technical implementation.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Way too many arm-chair game producerss here, if anyone feels that they can make a better game, then by all means do so. Been playing since pong and the new titles are right where they are suppose to be. Perhaps the problem is in the players as can be seen in most of the threads, one player claims hardcore that loves gamex while the others complain of gamex problems. I am amused by the whining of players who speak of innovation in gaming yet, do not participate in creating one that they think is better. Go ahead and give it a go, get to school to learn how to create, get the cash to create and make a game. I am positive that you will have all the assist you could possibly want when you got into alpha, plenty of know-it-alls waiting to tell you how to make you game in fourms. Bottm line, my opinion, there are those who talk the talk and limited individuals who walk the walk.
You a game developer?
I am, and I agree with seabeast.
You want to make changes and you can't.
Bottom line is, if you make sweeping changes they kick you out the door. Right?
When you are a designer, you make proposals as part of the scope doc for the combat system. This has to appeal to people before we even impliment it. Once it's approved it is under a great deal of scruteny by those in charge because spending development time on a system that won't be ultimatly fun can cripple a project. So the system gets nitpicked before it's done, before it's ready. It can die a million deaths from tiny comments.
Dev's want to try new risky things but you need to sell the idea to people who manage the money. Sometimes they themselves are gamers, sometimes they're not. Sometimes they want hard facts and compairisons to assure them that investing money in the project will be a sound investment because X system worked in these other games. Saying "we intend to change it just a bit" will increase the odds of approval then trying to sell them on a radical new system.
These are not people who want a game the way you do, they want to see sales figures and success but the details of how that success is achieved needs to be monitored and judged every step of the way. Many projects have tried to innovate and gotten carried away only to find years of dev time wasted on systems which are flawed or just not fun, then re-work has to be done which delays the title, costs more cash to fund development.. etc.. from their perspective it's their cash and they monitor it to ensure they don't invest in a flop.
I'm afraid there are no villains here, just people trying to do right and make money to do right in the future.
"Change the combat system" rolls off the tongue as easily as "Hey dudes, make me a pyramid!" rolled off a pharoah's tongue back in the day. But saying and doing are completely different things.
I think its pretty easy to notice that the human race is getting lazier so games are just getting to easy with nothing new because everyone is just trying to make the same thing as everyone else.
Comments
Way too many arm-chair game producerss here, if anyone feels that they can make a better game, then by all means do so. Been playing since pong and the new titles are right where they are suppose to be. Perhaps the problem is in the players as can be seen in most of the threads, one player claims hardcore that loves gamex while the others complain of gamex problems.
I am amused by the whining of players who speak of innovation in gaming yet, do not participate in creating one that they think is better. Go ahead and give it a go, get to school to learn how to create, get the cash to create and make a game. I am positive that you will have all the assist you could possibly want when you got into alpha, plenty of know-it-alls waiting to tell you how to make you game in fourms. Bottm line, my opinion, there are those who talk the talk and limited individuals who walk the walk.
Which is easy. Change the combat system, change how crafting works, have a meaningful story, make quests more in-depth, and change the way character progression works, even if only slightly (from leveling classes to leveling skills/weapons/whatever). That should be enough to make the new game feel like a new experience.
But developers don't want to go even this far.
Well completely developing a new combat system isn't exactly "easy", considering the new system has to be developed to be at least as fun as the existing one.
"Change the combat system" rolls off the tongue as easily as "Hey dudes, make me a pyramid!" rolled off a pharoah's tongue back in the day. But saying and doing are completely different things.
I agree, innovating these aspects is the way for developers to differentiate themselves and be successful, but it eats up a very large portion of dev time to make new systems fun (usually to the detriment of other parts of the game.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Opinion: MMOs are progressing decently. Baby steps for the most part like most industries that require big budgets and great deals of time.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
The main problem is that while players CLAIM they won't innovation they don't, really. They want steady evolution and will not touch anything really different to what they're familiar with. Hell, quite a few wrote off Mortal Online *only* on the basis of FPV, simply because it'd feel weird to them.
And combat systems? AoC has, hands down, best melee combat system in MMOs at the moment [sorry DF fans, I don't even consider flailing your sword wildly to be a 'system']. And yet many players stay away from the game, or from melee classes, because it requires too much work and is too different from the usual EQ/WoW combat system.
Such is the human condition.
The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.
This interview with American McGee (of Alice fame) hits perfectly upon my thoughts on innovation. The term "small innovations" gets tossed around, as does the concept of being wise about where you choose to innovate. That's exactly what I've tried to convey in my posts here.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
American McGee is huge on "small innovations." It's pretty evident with his Grimm series. It's a masterpiece when looked at from one angle...and an abomination when looked at from another.
However, Alice and Scrapland are two of my favorite games.
...on the other handdd...after finally finding Bad Day L.A. and being rather excited because it took me ages to find it...the game kind of...well, stunk like the hobo that was the main character.
Check out the MUD I'm making!
also....copy pasted a post i did from a couple days ago.
if the basic components of an MMORPG are A B & C and another mmo tries to be innovative and fail, it is usually because they replaced either A B or C with E G or P and it looks like A B E or G or P. Get it? Innovation is not about replacing what already is, it's about improving or adding something new without removing A B or C you add D E and F and boom you've set the new standard, in order to be noticed you will now have to make another game that at the very least contain A B C D E F. That is why "innovation" today sucks because no one is really being innovative.
It's not that hard either, that developers could use that as an excuse to not make one. Some companies excel at making different combat systems for every game they make.. it is really not as hard as making a pyramid.
You are right about the fact that creating these systems will take up time from other aspects of the game, but that's a setback we have to live with. Do you want more races and ability to customize your fingernail color, or something to make the game actually fun? Do you want better graphics than before, or do you want to play a game that sucks you in for months? Do you want better customer service, or do you want to play a game that is fun 99% of the time, even though you might be disappointed with the GM's once in a blue moon? Do you want a perfect GUI, if you're bored of the game the minute you start it?
But even AOC's combat had been done before. It's basically Mortal Kombat (or any button mashing fighter) with the combo sequence shown for you.
I'd rather continue to see developers continue to slowly advance games to target long term "innovation" goals than everyone try to shoot the moon and all developer dollars vacate the system because the vast majority fail.
Do we really need MORE whining about failed games and lack of money for MMOs development?
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
But even AOC's combat had been done before. It's basically Mortal Kombat (or any button mashing fighter) with the combo sequence shown for you.
Most combat systems will have been done before. However, they haven't been done in MMOs because MMOs have unique challenges that do not exist in any other genre. It is still innovation of the genre when some company solves the technical and acceptance difficulties.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Yes innovation is nowhere to be found.The last game to be truly innovative was FFXI and guess what game will be next?Yep Square Enix again with FXIV.Does it auto mean a good game nope,but at least they are trying,i applaud developers that at least try.Playing the exact same game just because it has a new skin is not for me,i need more than that.
Developers make me laugh with their usual "You can change the world" PR speech or our game is unique when it is not.I also get bummed out when i hear people praise a game because you get to play barbie doll dress up in the player customization.When you play these games it is all about the combat and class structure,how you do those two things is the most important thing to do.This is because combat is pretty much all you do in these games,and your class structure is what makes or breaks it.FFXI's sub class system was unbelievable i find it hard to accept any other game,also being able to play all class on the same player is another fundamental must.
Go figure FFXI was the game that also made your mount innovative and unique,you had to raise it from an egg,you didn't get it from some drop[lmao] or just buy it[RMT],you had to earn it and design it's traits.Geesh FFXI was and still is pretty much the ONLY game that uses team work,every other game is designed to be solo,so you get no chainskill combos.The FFXI Renkai system was again innovative,building TP [unique],Square Enix is obviously the ONE developer that knows how to think outside the box.
The problem is that ALL the developers are money hungry,if they feel a cheaper more streamline approach will make them more money,they will go for it.WOW may very well be the culprit,all developers look at WOW and think questing for free xp and solo play is the money maker.Unique games like FFXI come around once in a blue moon,however we can hope FFXIV sticks to Square's innovative ways and does not try too hard to cater to the WOW crowd,just to get more subs.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
You a game developer?
I believe innovation is broadly overlooked;
DDO had the best quest content to date and a fine hack n' slash combat system, first of it's kind, and yet remained unnoticed until it went F2P.
Tabula Rasa was one of the first to do FPSMMO combat, even if it was a shell of the real thing, and it didn't do well - nor would it compared to games that are really doing it now.
Indie games like LOVE and Wurm do things that are unimaginable in other games, but will never be taken seriously because of the graphics or lack of a big name studio backing it.
-------No matter how awesome the innovation you achieve, people are not going to care because they focus on the "little things" more than what they are really looking for. "Best combat ever? Well I don't like all the instances." A handful of amazing features simply does not make up for anything these days, people have expectations that far exceed the tech limits of the genre, and they tend to scream for something new when anything foreign to them ends up turning them off. The blame lies solely on the consumer for not knowing a) what he really wants, nor b) what is even possible.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
You a game developer?
I am, and I agree with seabeast.
Arioc Murkwood
Environment Artist
Sad but true.
Yes.....
It's better to lurk in forums and be thought a fool...than to endlessly "Quote" and remove all doubts.
Simply because its too expensive now. When you have a 5 million dollar project, you have a visionary, a designer, a gifted artist run the show, because its a small risk, and because on that budget, he likely cant blow it on a bad decision.
If you got a 50 million dollar project, you ll have some sort of manager, external talent or financial wiz leading it, because its considered common sense that these people are always the most capable, talented and competent at doing such stuff.
Unfortunately, that means your 50 dollar project is going to minimize risk for maximized gain. And that, in return, means no innovation.
Also, innovation alone doesnt make a good game. As we have seen the past years, the modern audience is demanding as hell, and fickle too. They want innovation, but dont want to miss features and quality that they have grown accustomed to in the mean time.
Basically, for a standard game, you copy the market leader, alter one or two things you believe will sell better, and adapt it a little to your budget.
For an innovative game, you not only need to come up with great new concepts, you then have to offer the whole package of graphics, known standard features, polish, balance and content which the other game only needs to copy, whereas you dont get cut any slack for trying something new. Because once the "new" wears off (see TCoS, Age of Conan, Tabula Rasa etc.), people will just leave going to those games who deliver the same old, same old, but enough of it.
In the end, content and quality trumps innovation and originality in the long run, and budgets just are not big enough for indie developers to get both.
You a game developer?
I am, and I agree with seabeast.
I've done a few internships with game and other software companies. Sometimes when I'd talk with my manager the above was true. Lack of experience and understanding of the entire process was a serious problem to weeding out good ideas from bad. However, like my managers said this wasn't a bad thing. Once in a while I'd surprise them with very workable ideas that their experienced mind was not capable of thinking of. It really takes both kinds.
Got some papers and patents out of it, too bad I don't get any of the money ;p
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
You a game developer?
I am, and I agree with seabeast.
You want to make changes and you can't.
Bottom line is, if you make sweeping changes they kick you out the door. Right?
I actually know quite a bit of people (me included) who enjoyed AoC's combat system and specifically would play melee classes because of it. I for one wish they'd applied something unique to the spellcasting system to (like drawing out the spell runes with the mouse or something along those lines). It had a few unique things about it that weren't specific to melee either like being able to use stamina to sprint, the stealth system, and doubletapping to provide dodge and other bonuses. The combat system was one of the best parts of AoC in my opinion. I think a lot of people specifically played AoC because it had an innovative combat system.
Let's face it, the main reason AoC didn't do well had nothing to do with it's combat system. The game was a mess lacking content that should have been completed at release, was bug ridden, had features listed on the box that didn't even make it into the game, had some terrible first few patches that broke more things than it fixed, had massive exploits and loads of people exploiting it without fear of getting banned, etc. There is a reason it took a huge plunge (http://www.mmodata.net) in sub numbers within a month or two's time.
*cries for more innovation
*has to deal with new concepts in a game
*runs back to safe comfy EQ2 clones
*cries for more innovation...
*is standard MMO gamer
Give me liberty or give me lasers
It's not that hard either, that developers could use that as an excuse to not make one. Some companies excel at making different combat systems for every game they make.. it is really not as hard as making a pyramid.
You are right about the fact that creating these systems will take up time from other aspects of the game, but that's a setback we have to live with. Do you want more races and ability to customize your fingernail color, or something to make the game actually fun? Do you want better graphics than before, or do you want to play a game that sucks you in for months? Do you want better customer service, or do you want to play a game that is fun 99% of the time, even though you might be disappointed with the GM's once in a blue moon? Do you want a perfect GUI, if you're bored of the game the minute you start it?
Agreed.
And yeah, my pyramid comment was just about "saying vs. doing." The actual work involved in pyramids vs. games is several magnitudes different. :P
But yeah, it boils down to developers continually figuring out what players actually want and focusing on those features (which might include fingernail color...but almost certainly includes better gameplay.)
EDIT: It occurs to me that saying "better gameplay" is sort of like saying "let's make our product better". Useless because it states an obvious goal without stating any of the prerequisite factors necessary to make it a reality. All it does is narrow the desired improvement to gameplay (distinct from the artistic presentation or technical implementation.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You a game developer?
I am, and I agree with seabeast.
You want to make changes and you can't.
Bottom line is, if you make sweeping changes they kick you out the door. Right?
When you are a designer, you make proposals as part of the scope doc for the combat system. This has to appeal to people before we even impliment it. Once it's approved it is under a great deal of scruteny by those in charge because spending development time on a system that won't be ultimatly fun can cripple a project. So the system gets nitpicked before it's done, before it's ready. It can die a million deaths from tiny comments.
Dev's want to try new risky things but you need to sell the idea to people who manage the money. Sometimes they themselves are gamers, sometimes they're not. Sometimes they want hard facts and compairisons to assure them that investing money in the project will be a sound investment because X system worked in these other games. Saying "we intend to change it just a bit" will increase the odds of approval then trying to sell them on a radical new system.
These are not people who want a game the way you do, they want to see sales figures and success but the details of how that success is achieved needs to be monitored and judged every step of the way. Many projects have tried to innovate and gotten carried away only to find years of dev time wasted on systems which are flawed or just not fun, then re-work has to be done which delays the title, costs more cash to fund development.. etc.. from their perspective it's their cash and they monitor it to ensure they don't invest in a flop.
I'm afraid there are no villains here, just people trying to do right and make money to do right in the future.
Arioc Murkwood
Environment Artist
Sad but true.
"Change the combat system" rolls off the tongue as easily as "Hey dudes, make me a pyramid!" rolled off a pharoah's tongue back in the day. But saying and doing are completely different things.
Quote for the win...
Arioc Murkwood
Environment Artist
Sad but true.
I think its pretty easy to notice that the human race is getting lazier so games are just getting to easy with nothing new because everyone is just trying to make the same thing as everyone else.