The main problem is that while players CLAIM they won't innovation they don't, really. They want steady evolution and will not touch anything really different to what they're familiar with. Hell, quite a few wrote off Mortal Online *only* on the basis of FPV, simply because it'd feel weird to them. And combat systems? AoC has, hands down, best melee combat system in MMOs at the moment [sorry DF fans, I don't even consider flailing your sword wildly to be a 'system']. And yet many players stay away from the game, or from melee classes, because it requires too much work and is too different from the usual EQ/WoW combat system.
Such is the human condition.
Not for me I really want something different to hit the market, the advancements in technology justify that game developers are not keeping up with whats available when considering new titles. MMO's hit big 13 years ago, 11 years ago EQ was launched and almost every successful MMORPG since has used it as a template, even WoW. Granted in that time frame there have been graphical updates, but the real core of how the game feels is the same when you look past all the eye candy.
Now lets step outside the world of MMO's and look at gaming in general? Let's see 3 generation of Console units, Motion Sensitive control devices, hmm.. Oh!! I the nifty companies working on scanning your brain waves with a headset to act as a control interface, VR devices, all of these things are being picked up by the Gaming industry in some form in every area except MMO's. You want to talk Innovation I'd love to see a MMO that allows you to explore via VR headset, that uses a motion sensitive controller to preform the majority of actions. Voice recognition for spell casting etc. Sure the technology for some of that is expensive, but it's coming down in price while the market is glutted with a ton of EQ clones.
Way too many arm-chair game producerss here, if anyone feels that they can make a better game, then by all means do so. Been playing since pong and the new titles are right where they are suppose to be. Perhaps the problem is in the players as can be seen in most of the threads, one player claims hardcore that loves gamex while the others complain of gamex problems. I am amused by the whining of players who speak of innovation in gaming yet, do not participate in creating one that they think is better. Go ahead and give it a go, get to school to learn how to create, get the cash to create and make a game. I am positive that you will have all the assist you could possibly want when you got into alpha, plenty of know-it-alls waiting to tell you how to make you game in fourms. Bottm line, my opinion, there are those who talk the talk and limited individuals who walk the walk.
You a game developer?
I am, and I agree with seabeast.
You want to make changes and you can't.
Bottom line is, if you make sweeping changes they kick you out the door. Right?
When you are a designer, you make proposals as part of the scope doc for the combat system. This has to appeal to people before we even impliment it. Once it's approved it is under a great deal of scruteny by those in charge because spending development time on a system that won't be ultimatly fun can cripple a project. So the system gets nitpicked before it's done, before it's ready. It can die a million deaths from tiny comments.
Dev's want to try new risky things but you need to sell the idea to people who manage the money. Sometimes they themselves are gamers, sometimes they're not. Sometimes they want hard facts and compairisons to assure them that investing money in the project will be a sound investment because X system worked in these other games. Saying "we intend to change it just a bit" will increase the odds of approval then trying to sell them on a radical new system.
These are not people who want a game the way you do, they want to see sales figures and success but the details of how that success is achieved needs to be monitored and judged every step of the way. Many projects have tried to innovate and gotten carried away only to find years of dev time wasted on systems which are flawed or just not fun, then re-work has to be done which delays the title, costs more cash to fund development.. etc.. from their perspective it's their cash and they monitor it to ensure they don't invest in a flop.
I'm afraid there are no villains here, just people trying to do right and make money to do right in the future.
I am on your side on this as I am trying to produce one and it is a tuff battle.
Not going to say any more just letting you so you know that I FULLY understand your positions and that it is investors that you must convince.
When you are a designer, you make proposals as part of the scope doc for the combat system. This has to appeal to people before we even impliment it. Once it's approved it is under a great deal of scruteny by those in charge because spending development time on a system that won't be ultimatly fun can cripple a project. So the system gets nitpicked before it's done, before it's ready. It can die a million deaths from tiny comments.
Dev's want to try new risky things but you need to sell the idea to people who manage the money. Sometimes they themselves are gamers, sometimes they're not. Sometimes they want hard facts and compairisons to assure them that investing money in the project will be a sound investment because X system worked in these other games. Saying "we intend to change it just a bit" will increase the odds of approval then trying to sell them on a radical new system.
These are not people who want a game the way you do, they want to see sales figures and success but the details of how that success is achieved needs to be monitored and judged every step of the way. Many projects have tried to innovate and gotten carried away only to find years of dev time wasted on systems which are flawed or just not fun, then re-work has to be done which delays the title, costs more cash to fund development.. etc.. from their perspective it's their cash and they monitor it to ensure they don't invest in a flop.
I'm afraid there are no villains here, just people trying to do right and make money to do right in the future.
Look I know there are a lot of developers that want to innovate, but unless the players step up basically shout about the lack why is there a reason to risk money on it? I know quite a few developers, and I'm not talking BS IRC Chats or now and then appearances in games, or Beta Tests. I'm talking regular contact with developers, sitting down in person and having full on discussions, and you are right the studios often don't want to drop the $$$ to try something new.
But I also know most studios have folks that pour over the major gaming sites reading articles to see what public opinion is too. The more we can ask for it and the louder our voice the more likely we are of being heard. Sure it might not happen in a current title, but it leave the mind open for the future.
I've been playing MMORPGs since 1999, I've played, UO, EQ, DAoC, WoW, DDO, Atlantica Online, and a few other titles so I feel I have a decent ground work for this. I personally don't see much that's really innovative in new titles. The majority of games that are out there now that I've tried just well feel like they took EQ , tossed on a new graphics engine, and made some changes to the various subsystems to make them fit a theme. Even WoW is guilty of this in my eyes, I picked it up played it for about a week and walked away, other than eye candy there wasn't much I hadn't seen in other games before. When is a Studio going to look at the current cookie cutter market and say, " You know that's a proven method of doing things but lets do it like this!". Sure I know it's risky, WoW has 10+ million players and is raking in hordes of money. I'm sure studios want a piece of that action, but I'm looking for people to really push the boundry of what we think of when we look at MMORPGs. I try and keep up with up coming titles and most current ones, and there are only a few that really take me by surprise on how different they are.
1) Ultima Online - It's old, it's not a graphically pleasing but no other MMO is close to it in how it's built and designed. 2) Atlantica Online - Finally a game that really rewards players for helping new players, and feels like a Console RPG. 3) SW:TOR - Yea it's not released yet, but from video I've seen it looks like they are introducing a lot of elements commonly found in FPS and Console/Offline games. Everything from alterations of missions based on player reactions, to being able to use cover as an element in Combat.
Why can't more MMO's follow those lines of thinking on "What can we do that will really make playing the game different?", how many Level and Grind type MMOs can the market really support?
Your thoughts?
I'd say there's quite a few MMOs that can add to that list, new and old.
ATITD, Puzzle Pirates, Dragonica, Planetside, BattleSwarm, Wolf Team, Valkyrie Sky, Exteel, EVE Online. Each one has a good amount of innovation and gameplay that deviates from the standard fantasy level-based class-restricted rehashes.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I've been playing MMORPGs since 1999, I've played, UO, EQ, DAoC, WoW, DDO, Atlantica Online, and a few other titles so I feel I have a decent ground work for this. I personally don't see much that's really innovative in new titles. The majority of games that are out there now that I've tried just well feel like they took EQ , tossed on a new graphics engine, and made some changes to the various subsystems to make them fit a theme. Even WoW is guilty of this in my eyes, I picked it up played it for about a week and walked away, other than eye candy there wasn't much I hadn't seen in other games before. When is a Studio going to look at the current cookie cutter market and say, " You know that's a proven method of doing things but lets do it like this!". Sure I know it's risky, WoW has 10+ million players and is raking in hordes of money. I'm sure studios want a piece of that action, but I'm looking for people to really push the boundry of what we think of when we look at MMORPGs. I try and keep up with up coming titles and most current ones, and there are only a few that really take me by surprise on how different they are.
1) Ultima Online - It's old, it's not a graphically pleasing but no other MMO is close to it in how it's built and designed. 2) Atlantica Online - Finally a game that really rewards players for helping new players, and feels like a Console RPG. 3) SW:TOR - Yea it's not released yet, but from video I've seen it looks like they are introducing a lot of elements commonly found in FPS and Console/Offline games. Everything from alterations of missions based on player reactions, to being able to use cover as an element in Combat.
Why can't more MMO's follow those lines of thinking on "What can we do that will really make playing the game different?", how many Level and Grind type MMOs can the market really support?
Your thoughts?
I'd say there's quite a few MMOs that can add to that list, new and old.
Old don't coincide with the title of the thread.
ATITD - agreed but it isn't a new title and isn't relevant to this thread.
Puzzle Pirates - agreed but it isn't a new title and isn't relevant to this thread.
Dragonica - how? It's just like the 3D version of MapleStory or WindSlayer.
Planetside - it was but it isn't new so it doesn't really count.
BattleSwarm - not an MMORPG, so not relevant.
Wolf Team - not an MMORPG, so not relevant.
Valkyrie Sky - I don't know enough about it, but I don't think it's an MMORPG so it's not relevant.
Exteel - not an MMORPG, so not relevant.
EVE Online - agreed, but once again, 2003 original release. Not new, so not relevant.
Each one has a good amount of innovation and gameplay that deviates from the standard fantasy level-based class-restricted rehashes.
Shooters aren't MMORPGs lol. Also, WolfTeam isn't really innovative except in the sense that you get to be a wolf, and that's simply rehashing the shooter genre. As insanely fun as it is, it's still not innovative enough. It's just a deviation of melee in an FPS. BattleSwarm is innovative, but I reference 10six, as it had the two parts: MMOFPS and MMORTS in a persistent MMORPG shell, whereas BS is room-based and has a nonpersistent MMOFPS and MMORTS part.
I've been playing MMORPGs since 1999, I've played, UO, EQ, DAoC, WoW, DDO, Atlantica Online, and a few other titles so I feel I have a decent ground work for this. I personally don't see much that's really innovative in new titles. The majority of games that are out there now that I've tried just well feel like they took EQ , tossed on a new graphics engine, and made some changes to the various subsystems to make them fit a theme. Even WoW is guilty of this in my eyes, I picked it up played it for about a week and walked away, other than eye candy there wasn't much I hadn't seen in other games before. When is a Studio going to look at the current cookie cutter market and say, " You know that's a proven method of doing things but lets do it like this!". Sure I know it's risky, WoW has 10+ million players and is raking in hordes of money. I'm sure studios want a piece of that action, but I'm looking for people to really push the boundry of what we think of when we look at MMORPGs. I try and keep up with up coming titles and most current ones, and there are only a few that really take me by surprise on how different they are.
1) Ultima Online - It's old, it's not a graphically pleasing but no other MMO is close to it in how it's built and designed. 2) Atlantica Online - Finally a game that really rewards players for helping new players, and feels like a Console RPG. 3) SW:TOR - Yea it's not released yet, but from video I've seen it looks like they are introducing a lot of elements commonly found in FPS and Console/Offline games. Everything from alterations of missions based on player reactions, to being able to use cover as an element in Combat.
Why can't more MMO's follow those lines of thinking on "What can we do that will really make playing the game different?", how many Level and Grind type MMOs can the market really support?
Your thoughts?
I'd say there's quite a few MMOs that can add to that list, new and old.
Old don't coincide with the title of the thread.
ATITD - agreed but it isn't a new title and isn't relevant to this thread.
Puzzle Pirates - agreed but it isn't a new title and isn't relevant to this thread.
Dragonica - how? It's just like the 3D version of MapleStory or WindSlayer.
Planetside - it was but it isn't new so it doesn't really count.
BattleSwarm - not an MMORPG, so not relevant.
Wolf Team - not an MMORPG, so not relevant.
Valkyrie Sky - I don't know enough about it, but I don't think it's an MMORPG so it's not relevant.
Exteel - not an MMORPG, so not relevant.
EVE Online - agreed, but once again, 2003 original release. Not new, so not relevant.
Each one has a good amount of innovation and gameplay that deviates from the standard fantasy level-based class-restricted rehashes.
Shooters aren't MMORPGs lol. Also, WolfTeam isn't really innovative except in the sense that you get to be a wolf, and that's simply rehashing the shooter genre. As insanely fun as it is, it's still not innovative enough. It's just a deviation of melee in an FPS. BattleSwarm is innovative, but I reference 10six, as it had the two parts: MMOFPS and MMORTS in a persistent MMORPG shell, whereas BS is room-based and has a nonpersistent MMOFPS and MMORTS part.
And that's the most ridiculous part of it. The same guys that say there is no innovation and originality to the platform also say it must be an MMORPG and must be current and must fit each of their other conditionals based on how everything has been for the past ten years.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
We haven't seen any great improvements in graphics in recent games either. I think a WoW clone would have a good chance if it offered the same gameplay, but with jaw-dropping graphics. A lot of people have powerful high-end systems which are overkill for any mmo available. If a game came out that actually used 4 cores, 8gb or ram and dual behemoth video cards, people with these systems would jump on it.
We haven't seen any great improvements in graphics in recent games either. I think a WoW clone would have a good chance if it offered the same gameplay, but with jaw-dropping graphics. A lot of people have powerful high-end systems which are overkill for any mmo available. If a game came out that actually used 4 cores, 8gb or ram and dual behemoth video cards, people with these systems would jump on it.
...all four of you :P
Seriously though, an MMORPG should probably never run on the bleeding edge of technology because, as they are long term investments, technology changes, and when a company makes a game that the majority of the playerbase won't be able to see at max settings until at least a year into release, companies will have to take some risks as to how to design their graphics engine. EQ2's biggest problem at the moment is its performance even on high end systems due to the fact that SOE made the gamble that we'd see a larger leap in processing power than what we would see with graphics cards. Obviously, that's not the case now and the game's performance suffers because of it. Additionally, games like AoC and Vanguard all suffer population issues for a number of reasons, don't get me wrong, but the fact that both games run so poorly is certainly a valid reason.
That said, I'm not sure I understand how cartoony graphics equates to low system requirements. World of Warcraft is probably the only MMORPG released in the last five years that didn't run like an absolute behemoth on my system no matter how cartoony the graphics looked. Both Warhammer (understandable to a point) and LoTRO all have a graphics engine which leans on the cartoony side, but at least for me, neither of those games run much better than Everquest 2. Warhammer, on the other hand, actually runs worse. Woe to me should I ever enter a zone full of trees...
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
All I can say is.. yep. Maybe of the mmo's coming out recently feel too much like something else out there, yeah I know its hard to make a totally orignal game now a days but still, at least make some kind of a effort. Fallen Earth did, although the game still totally blows. I just think mmo devs need to move away from the swords and elves crap, we have enough of that as it is to last a life time. I'd like more sci-fi mmo's myself, Not garbage like Eve Online and Fallen Earth, but something like Anarchy Online albet with way more up to date graphic engine(s) and such. I do know AO is having a new engine made but prettier trees and such won't fix the horrendous character/monster models or the the textures used on said models.
Let me really simplify what I'm asking about and saying, tell me one thing in the past 10 years that has happened other than graphical improvements, how a GUI is laid out, and key mapping that has really changed how we view the MMORPG genre. Seriously WoW was an improvement largely on the EQ base model of Grind & Quest game play. What I'm getting at is there is nothing really innovative about that concept. What can be done that really changes the way we approach playing. Really even though I like the concept of more revolutionary technology being used, it doesn't have to be that. Why isn't there a releases of games that don't lean toward gratification through mindless repetition?
And that's the most ridiculous part of it. The same guys that say there is no innovation and originality to the platform also say it must be an MMORPG and must be current and must fit each of their other conditionals based on how everything has been for the past ten years.
I'm sorry...this is a thread on an MMORPG forum about new titles, right? Most people have only been complaining for about the past 3 years or so. Any game that I considered not new was released long before "the great complaint."
So double check before attacking me for pointing things out.
continent of the ninth, mabinogi heroes, blade&soul, tera, berkanix, metal black alternative, steel dog, huskey express, dragonball online, land of chaos online, etc... a lot of titles coming out soon that are 'innovative'
continent of the ninth, mabinogi heroes, blade&soul, tera, berkanix, metal black alternative, steel dog, huskey express, dragonball online, land of chaos online, etc... a lot of titles coming out soon that are 'innovative'
I have looked at all of those Titles. Huskey express does not exite me, Adding sled dogs is not so much innovative as it is changing the graphic from a car to a dog..... Its a racing mmorpg, nothing to see here. Mabinogi and possibly DBZ online will be ok, but hardly innovative. the Rest of them look like every other Asian manga Final Fantasy Rip off I see on the market, just throw them on the pile. Innovative, lol.
Krn_Assassin has been known to throw terms around incorrectly. Just ignore him. He also seems to have an affinity for Korean games, if you catch my drift.
In any case, I can hardly call any of those games innovative, either. Games like Berkanix, Husky Express, Dragonball, etc look good but in reality they're just rehashes of something that's been done before. Systems that Mabinogi: Heroes, C9 and TERA have may look new to the MMO genre, but in reality the same system has been done in side-scrollers. It's just a change of perspective. Not to mention, if there's a plethora of games coming out using the same mechanic, the mechanic can hardly be called innovative.
And that's the most ridiculous part of it. The same guys that say there is no innovation and originality to the platform also say it must be an MMORPG and must be current and must fit each of their other conditionals based on how everything has been for the past ten years.
Agree 100%.
It's a catch-22 for developers. Their game must somehow manage to be different from every game out there, and be the same as every MMORPG out there. Wait..what?
Expectations of MMORPGs being recently released are also unrealistic, given the monumentally large nature of these games.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Agree 100%. It's a catch-22 for developers. Their game must somehow manage to be different from every game out there, and be the same as every MMORPG out there. Wait..what? Expectations of MMORPGs being recently released are also unrealistic, given the monumentally large nature of these games.
He was referring to my post because I decided to comment on how relevant his examples were to this thread.
Agree 100%. It's a catch-22 for developers. Their game must somehow manage to be different from every game out there, and be the same as every MMORPG out there. Wait..what? Expectations of MMORPGs being recently released are also unrealistic, given the monumentally large nature of these games.
He was referring to my post because I decided to comment on how relevant his examples were to this thread.
John, the point still stands. Your view on MMOs is a common one. You want new and innovative, but even in your 'corrections' of my list, you made it clear that you will reject anything that isn't specifically an MMORPG and meeting your own personal checklist as to what an MMO should or shouldn't be. It makes it really hard for developers to build for those who want something innovative and original when they reject anything that isn't status quo.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
John, the point still stands. Your view on MMOs is a common one. You want new and innovative, but even in your 'corrections' of my list, you made it clear that you will reject anything that isn't specifically an MMORPG and meeting your own personal checklist as to what an MMO should or shouldn't be. It makes it really hard for developers to build for those who want something innovative and original when they reject anything that isn't status quo.
Not even close buddy. I respect every effort that seems like the devs were truly in it when they created the game. I don't care what the game is. I even thoroughly enjoyed some of the grinders I've played.
Fact of the matter is, I was trying to clear things up between the OP and what you had posted.
The other thing is, the MMOs I have stuck to longest were anything but status quo. LOVE, for one, I'm still paying for even several months after the initial public release. That's anything but status quo, and not quite massive or an RPG.
Also, I decided to go with the Station Pass. What are the games I got it for? Vanguard and Pirates of the Burning Sea. Anything but status quo, I'd say.
I've been playing MMORPGs since 1999, I've played, UO, EQ, DAoC, WoW, DDO, Atlantica Online, and a few other titles so I feel I have a decent ground work for this. I personally don't see much that's really innovative in new titles. The majority of games that are out there now that I've tried just well feel like they took EQ , tossed on a new graphics engine, and made some changes to the various subsystems to make them fit a theme. Even WoW is guilty of this in my eyes, I picked it up played it for about a week and walked away, other than eye candy there wasn't much I hadn't seen in other games before. When is a Studio going to look at the current cookie cutter market and say, " You know that's a proven method of doing things but lets do it like this!". Sure I know it's risky, WoW has 10+ million players and is raking in hordes of money. I'm sure studios want a piece of that action, but I'm looking for people to really push the boundry of what we think of when we look at MMORPGs. I try and keep up with up coming titles and most current ones, and there are only a few that really take me by surprise on how different they are.
1) Ultima Online - It's old, it's not a graphically pleasing but no other MMO is close to it in how it's built and designed. 2) Atlantica Online - Finally a game that really rewards players for helping new players, and feels like a Console RPG. 3) SW:TOR - Yea it's not released yet, but from video I've seen it looks like they are introducing a lot of elements commonly found in FPS and Console/Offline games. Everything from alterations of missions based on player reactions, to being able to use cover as an element in Combat.
Why can't more MMO's follow those lines of thinking on "What can we do that will really make playing the game different?", how many Level and Grind type MMOs can the market really support?
Your thoughts?
1. UO is a classic one, with excellent features beside the new pvp system
2. Atlantica Online is a korean grind fest. Turn based combat is nice, but thats all.
3. Swtor might be a flop of a single player "mmorpg", but we will see.
Dont expect inovation or next-gen from the big developers, they are in it for the money not to make good games, and since most of the mmorpg gamers have no clue until is too late, this works quite good for them (Devs).
The only mmorpgs i wait for now are : The New Mainstream pile of shit that Blizzard next MMO will be (or maybe will finaly they will make something good, next-gen, persistent, chance of that are like 0.0001%, but at least it will be polished) and Dawn of Fantasy a upcoming persistent MMORTS. The rest i find them, at least most of them traps for zombies.
I don't care about groundbreaking, innovation, or originality. Those are just empty words for me. I care about a game being fun to play. I have played plenty of games that lacks those descriptions while still having a great time.
I have a feeling those that scream for those things are the MMO burnouts. Take a break from the genre instead. I mean if you have been playing since the 90's, there is a good reason why no MMO can satisfy you and it isn't lack of advancement in the genre.
I agree.
Often times it sounds like some one is not ranting about stagnation in the MMORPG industry.
What they are really saying is, I don't want to play MMORPGs any more, can someone make something sorta kinda like an MMORPG, but completely different?
For example, RPG means characters that go up in power, with either levels, skills, or gear, and that progression is the MAJORITY of your success in combat.
If you're railing against that feature of an MMORPG, you're really just saying you want to play something besides an MMORPG.
It's like saying, can't they develop an FPS where players twitch skills aren't that important? Yes, it's called an RPG.
Or saying, can't they develop an RTS, where you don't build any units or gather any resources of any kind? Yes, it's called Chess.
Comments
Not for me I really want something different to hit the market, the advancements in technology justify that game developers are not keeping up with whats available when considering new titles. MMO's hit big 13 years ago, 11 years ago EQ was launched and almost every successful MMORPG since has used it as a template, even WoW. Granted in that time frame there have been graphical updates, but the real core of how the game feels is the same when you look past all the eye candy.
Now lets step outside the world of MMO's and look at gaming in general? Let's see 3 generation of Console units, Motion Sensitive control devices, hmm.. Oh!! I the nifty companies working on scanning your brain waves with a headset to act as a control interface, VR devices, all of these things are being picked up by the Gaming industry in some form in every area except MMO's. You want to talk Innovation I'd love to see a MMO that allows you to explore via VR headset, that uses a motion sensitive controller to preform the majority of actions. Voice recognition for spell casting etc. Sure the technology for some of that is expensive, but it's coming down in price while the market is glutted with a ton of EQ clones.
You a game developer?
I am, and I agree with seabeast.
You want to make changes and you can't.
Bottom line is, if you make sweeping changes they kick you out the door. Right?
When you are a designer, you make proposals as part of the scope doc for the combat system. This has to appeal to people before we even impliment it. Once it's approved it is under a great deal of scruteny by those in charge because spending development time on a system that won't be ultimatly fun can cripple a project. So the system gets nitpicked before it's done, before it's ready. It can die a million deaths from tiny comments.
Dev's want to try new risky things but you need to sell the idea to people who manage the money. Sometimes they themselves are gamers, sometimes they're not. Sometimes they want hard facts and compairisons to assure them that investing money in the project will be a sound investment because X system worked in these other games. Saying "we intend to change it just a bit" will increase the odds of approval then trying to sell them on a radical new system.
These are not people who want a game the way you do, they want to see sales figures and success but the details of how that success is achieved needs to be monitored and judged every step of the way. Many projects have tried to innovate and gotten carried away only to find years of dev time wasted on systems which are flawed or just not fun, then re-work has to be done which delays the title, costs more cash to fund development.. etc.. from their perspective it's their cash and they monitor it to ensure they don't invest in a flop.
I'm afraid there are no villains here, just people trying to do right and make money to do right in the future.
I am on your side on this as I am trying to produce one and it is a tuff battle.
Not going to say any more just letting you so you know that I FULLY understand your positions and that it is investors that you must convince.
Look I know there are a lot of developers that want to innovate, but unless the players step up basically shout about the lack why is there a reason to risk money on it? I know quite a few developers, and I'm not talking BS IRC Chats or now and then appearances in games, or Beta Tests. I'm talking regular contact with developers, sitting down in person and having full on discussions, and you are right the studios often don't want to drop the $$$ to try something new.
But I also know most studios have folks that pour over the major gaming sites reading articles to see what public opinion is too. The more we can ask for it and the louder our voice the more likely we are of being heard. Sure it might not happen in a current title, but it leave the mind open for the future.
I'd say there's quite a few MMOs that can add to that list, new and old.
ATITD, Puzzle Pirates, Dragonica, Planetside, BattleSwarm, Wolf Team, Valkyrie Sky, Exteel, EVE Online. Each one has a good amount of innovation and gameplay that deviates from the standard fantasy level-based class-restricted rehashes.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'd say there's quite a few MMOs that can add to that list, new and old.
Old don't coincide with the title of the thread.
ATITD - agreed but it isn't a new title and isn't relevant to this thread.
Puzzle Pirates - agreed but it isn't a new title and isn't relevant to this thread.
Dragonica - how? It's just like the 3D version of MapleStory or WindSlayer.
Planetside - it was but it isn't new so it doesn't really count.
BattleSwarm - not an MMORPG, so not relevant.
Wolf Team - not an MMORPG, so not relevant.
Valkyrie Sky - I don't know enough about it, but I don't think it's an MMORPG so it's not relevant.
Exteel - not an MMORPG, so not relevant.
EVE Online - agreed, but once again, 2003 original release. Not new, so not relevant.
Each one has a good amount of innovation and gameplay that deviates from the standard fantasy level-based class-restricted rehashes.
Shooters aren't MMORPGs lol. Also, WolfTeam isn't really innovative except in the sense that you get to be a wolf, and that's simply rehashing the shooter genre. As insanely fun as it is, it's still not innovative enough. It's just a deviation of melee in an FPS. BattleSwarm is innovative, but I reference 10six, as it had the two parts: MMOFPS and MMORTS in a persistent MMORPG shell, whereas BS is room-based and has a nonpersistent MMOFPS and MMORTS part.
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I'd say there's quite a few MMOs that can add to that list, new and old.
Old don't coincide with the title of the thread.
ATITD - agreed but it isn't a new title and isn't relevant to this thread.
Puzzle Pirates - agreed but it isn't a new title and isn't relevant to this thread.
Dragonica - how? It's just like the 3D version of MapleStory or WindSlayer.
Planetside - it was but it isn't new so it doesn't really count.
BattleSwarm - not an MMORPG, so not relevant.
Wolf Team - not an MMORPG, so not relevant.
Valkyrie Sky - I don't know enough about it, but I don't think it's an MMORPG so it's not relevant.
Exteel - not an MMORPG, so not relevant.
EVE Online - agreed, but once again, 2003 original release. Not new, so not relevant.
Each one has a good amount of innovation and gameplay that deviates from the standard fantasy level-based class-restricted rehashes.
Shooters aren't MMORPGs lol. Also, WolfTeam isn't really innovative except in the sense that you get to be a wolf, and that's simply rehashing the shooter genre. As insanely fun as it is, it's still not innovative enough. It's just a deviation of melee in an FPS. BattleSwarm is innovative, but I reference 10six, as it had the two parts: MMOFPS and MMORTS in a persistent MMORPG shell, whereas BS is room-based and has a nonpersistent MMOFPS and MMORTS part.
And that's the most ridiculous part of it. The same guys that say there is no innovation and originality to the platform also say it must be an MMORPG and must be current and must fit each of their other conditionals based on how everything has been for the past ten years.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
...all four of you :P
Seriously though, an MMORPG should probably never run on the bleeding edge of technology because, as they are long term investments, technology changes, and when a company makes a game that the majority of the playerbase won't be able to see at max settings until at least a year into release, companies will have to take some risks as to how to design their graphics engine. EQ2's biggest problem at the moment is its performance even on high end systems due to the fact that SOE made the gamble that we'd see a larger leap in processing power than what we would see with graphics cards. Obviously, that's not the case now and the game's performance suffers because of it. Additionally, games like AoC and Vanguard all suffer population issues for a number of reasons, don't get me wrong, but the fact that both games run so poorly is certainly a valid reason.
That said, I'm not sure I understand how cartoony graphics equates to low system requirements. World of Warcraft is probably the only MMORPG released in the last five years that didn't run like an absolute behemoth on my system no matter how cartoony the graphics looked. Both Warhammer (understandable to a point) and LoTRO all have a graphics engine which leans on the cartoony side, but at least for me, neither of those games run much better than Everquest 2. Warhammer, on the other hand, actually runs worse. Woe to me should I ever enter a zone full of trees...
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There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Let me really simplify what I'm asking about and saying, tell me one thing in the past 10 years that has happened other than graphical improvements, how a GUI is laid out, and key mapping that has really changed how we view the MMORPG genre. Seriously WoW was an improvement largely on the EQ base model of Grind & Quest game play. What I'm getting at is there is nothing really innovative about that concept. What can be done that really changes the way we approach playing. Really even though I like the concept of more revolutionary technology being used, it doesn't have to be that. Why isn't there a releases of games that don't lean toward gratification through mindless repetition?
I'm sorry...this is a thread on an MMORPG forum about new titles, right? Most people have only been complaining for about the past 3 years or so. Any game that I considered not new was released long before "the great complaint."
So double check before attacking me for pointing things out.
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continent of the ninth, mabinogi heroes, blade&soul, tera, berkanix, metal black alternative, steel dog, huskey express, dragonball online, land of chaos online, etc... a lot of titles coming out soon that are 'innovative'
Krn_Assassin has been known to throw terms around incorrectly. Just ignore him. He also seems to have an affinity for Korean games, if you catch my drift.
In any case, I can hardly call any of those games innovative, either. Games like Berkanix, Husky Express, Dragonball, etc look good but in reality they're just rehashes of something that's been done before. Systems that Mabinogi: Heroes, C9 and TERA have may look new to the MMO genre, but in reality the same system has been done in side-scrollers. It's just a change of perspective. Not to mention, if there's a plethora of games coming out using the same mechanic, the mechanic can hardly be called innovative.
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Agree 100%.
It's a catch-22 for developers. Their game must somehow manage to be different from every game out there, and be the same as every MMORPG out there. Wait..what?
Expectations of MMORPGs being recently released are also unrealistic, given the monumentally large nature of these games.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
He was referring to my post because I decided to comment on how relevant his examples were to this thread.
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He was referring to my post because I decided to comment on how relevant his examples were to this thread.
John, the point still stands. Your view on MMOs is a common one. You want new and innovative, but even in your 'corrections' of my list, you made it clear that you will reject anything that isn't specifically an MMORPG and meeting your own personal checklist as to what an MMO should or shouldn't be. It makes it really hard for developers to build for those who want something innovative and original when they reject anything that isn't status quo.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Not even close buddy. I respect every effort that seems like the devs were truly in it when they created the game. I don't care what the game is. I even thoroughly enjoyed some of the grinders I've played.
Fact of the matter is, I was trying to clear things up between the OP and what you had posted.
The other thing is, the MMOs I have stuck to longest were anything but status quo. LOVE, for one, I'm still paying for even several months after the initial public release. That's anything but status quo, and not quite massive or an RPG.
Also, I decided to go with the Station Pass. What are the games I got it for? Vanguard and Pirates of the Burning Sea. Anything but status quo, I'd say.
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1. UO is a classic one, with excellent features beside the new pvp system
2. Atlantica Online is a korean grind fest. Turn based combat is nice, but thats all.
3. Swtor might be a flop of a single player "mmorpg", but we will see.
Dont expect inovation or next-gen from the big developers, they are in it for the money not to make good games, and since most of the mmorpg gamers have no clue until is too late, this works quite good for them (Devs).
The only mmorpgs i wait for now are : The New Mainstream pile of shit that Blizzard next MMO will be (or maybe will finaly they will make something good, next-gen, persistent, chance of that are like 0.0001%, but at least it will be polished) and Dawn of Fantasy a upcoming persistent MMORTS. The rest i find them, at least most of them traps for zombies.
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I agree.
Often times it sounds like some one is not ranting about stagnation in the MMORPG industry.
What they are really saying is, I don't want to play MMORPGs any more, can someone make something sorta kinda like an MMORPG, but completely different?
For example, RPG means characters that go up in power, with either levels, skills, or gear, and that progression is the MAJORITY of your success in combat.
If you're railing against that feature of an MMORPG, you're really just saying you want to play something besides an MMORPG.
It's like saying, can't they develop an FPS where players twitch skills aren't that important? Yes, it's called an RPG.
Or saying, can't they develop an RTS, where you don't build any units or gather any resources of any kind? Yes, it's called Chess.
I like the one where you spend all your day harvesting while avoiding your enemies, then on special events you get to attack your opponents.
That one's called PAC-MAN
Ken
www.ActionMMORPG.com
One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
Ahhhh...the game that never had a greater goal, lol.
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