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Can 2010 Bioware really make a good MMO ?
Lobotomist
Member EpicPosts: 5,981
Question is not could 2004 Bioware make good SWTOR. With great games behind them likes of Baldurs Gate and NWN.
2004 Bioware was at their top.
Yet than came the EA buyout. And Bioware produced their first EA+B child : Dragon Age
I would not argue if Dragon Age had good or bad story , since this is highly subjective.
But anyone more experienced in RPGs would straight away notice that DA is horribly unbalanced RPG. With some classes horribly useless, other superbly overpowered. Number of skills that were complete waste of space, and other that made no sense at all (other lower skill in same tree being actually stronger). And finally up to complete game unbalance, with random encounter of archer bandits being more challenging than end game archdemon.
Than comes another EA+B child : Mass Effect 2
Again. Story great ( not judging it now ) - but horribly unbalanced RPG (and this time stripped and simplified to the bone. Barely resembling RPG)
Biotic classes being completely nerfed by the game mechanic. Made almost useless as main characters. Almost every good thing from MA1 removed and replaced.
So I ask myself.
What would happen in MMO , if Bioware can not even balance singleplayer RPG ? Or design engaging RPG ruleset ?
I mean sure they can write wicked good story.
But will the STORY be the reason you are playing SWTOR ?
Is the story reason you are playing MMO ?
Than why play online game at all ?
Comments
First off your being way too critical of both DA and ME2 (which is created by the same guys that created ME1).
While I don't have the link with me I don't think any of the bioware guys that made Kotor,JE and ME are even developing TOR.
Can they make a good MMO? Maybe.
But from reading your post and how overly critical you are from reading some of your post history I could tell you now that you wont be happy with it.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
ME2 was intentionally made to be more action-ish less RPG-ish, other than that its pretty darn good
DA is great, and while there are class unbalances they arent as bad as you make it to be, all classes can perfectly finish the game, each providing a different gameplay.
Plus I guess BW perfectly knows that balance is more important in a MMO than in a single player game, so i suppose they wont overlook it or put it in the bottom of the to do list when it comes to SWTOR.
It depends on what you think a good MMO is. If you expect it to be a sandbox type game then you're going to be disappointed.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Like others have said, your being way too critical on the recently released games, and we all know no matter what we say you won't be changing your mind on the game. I think the above poster summed it up nicely, if you set yourself up for disapointment, that's exactly what you'll get.
Sure, blame it on EA. If you didn't know, DA was in development long before EA bought Bioware. I for one liked DA and I'm sure I'll like ME2 since I loved the first one.
I'm thinking it will play like a co-op game. Those are fun too.
It seems like Bioware is really great at making stories, dialog, cutscenes, and characters, but every new generation of their games gets reduced in complexity, dumbed down in the gameplay, and more limited in the exploration. Considering how much I appreciate gameplay over graphics and story, I have no faith that SWTOR will be anything but another mass market generic overhyped piece of trash.
No doubt in my mind that Bioware will make a very good MMO. They aren't some wannabe mmo devlopers who are just in it to make a quick buck. Sure at times I question their decisions but overall I know I will be getting a good gaming experience because that is all that matters to me as a gamer.
Judging by the posts so far OP not many agree with you that DA or ME1-2 are bad games, or give something to worry about. I agree with everyone else thus far, I enjoyed DA and ME1. If the story elements are anything close in TOR I'll be happy.
You also have to realize the people building the MMO are a completely different studio than the creators of DA or ME. Most of the team working on TOR have worked on MMO's before, some have even built a SW MMO before.
I have a feeling TOR will be enjoyable enough for the box price, I'll have to play first before I decide if I would pay monthly for it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
This is not the MMO you are looking for
BioWare's upcoming Star Wars MMO may be a familiar one, but EA's plans for tempting you to part with your hard-earned cash are not.
Rather than asking for a monthly subscription fee, ala World of Warcraft, EA boss John Riccitiello has strongly hinted that the game will instead be "microtransaction-based".
Now that is not a good sign. Microtransactions are the worst thing to ever have been included in games.
My prediction is that SWTOR will be a good game for people interested in rich storyline experience.
It will give good fun to average MMO player for month or two. Until they reach end of storyline.
It will work good as cut scene rich singleplayer RPG. And will be played solo by most people.
I see it as singleplayer rpg, with added subscription.
But as MMO it will be among simplest. Probably sharing simplicity and instance orientation with likes of Champions Online.
On top of that. Skill system will be incredibly simplified and not very good (judging from latest Bioware games)
All in all a decent game for month or two of fun. And than people will quit.
Where gone are MMOs that people were playing for years ?
I can't say they will and I can't say they won't, why? Because I don't know anything about the development team, they don't have any games behind them.
Now, let me clearify that sentence. Star Wars: The Old Republic is NOT being developed by BioWare Edmonton. BioWare Edmonton is the orginal BioWare (Yes, in case you didn't know - We Canadians have BioWare, it was founded in Edmonton) and is solely responsable for Mass Effect (which also carried the EA Branding for the windows publishing, I do recall), Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (& not KOTOR:2), Neverwinter Nights (& not NWN2), Baulder's Gate, Jade Empire, and more (All independently by BioWare) -- when EA Boought them out, they basically said: "Look, you've got a good system, we do not want to mess with it. As such, you can go about development like you did but you'll have a larger budget." -- I was scared when I heard of the aquisition as EA had/has tendencies to mess good things up.
BioWare branched off into BioWare San Antonio, TX. Why? Because in order to develop an MMO you're pretty much already in debt for the fist couple of years of going live (as well as the development phase), and in order to maintain an MMO you need a specfically dedicated team to the game, BioWare Edmonton can't do that, they need to focus on the rest of games they develop and come out with. Thus, the San Antonio team is the dedicated team to SW:TOR (Yes there is a few team members from the Edmonton divison)
So, as I said, they haven't created anything: BioWare San Antonio - their focus is on SW:TOR.
As far as I understand, I think it's going to be a Massively Single Player Online Game .... I remember seeing it somewhere, every player has their own universe where their choices modify their universe, there is no saving and going back all changes are done in real time and there's no going back - live with it. It's a big single player, but think of the multiplayer has you can have 1000s of people join YOUR game and experience YOUR world and work with you. (I believe I got that from one of the DEV videos or official site.)
The PC get their own companions as well, basically think of KOTOR but on a bigger scale. Your NPC Companions can come and go as they please, if they continue to disagree with your choices consider them taking their leave and you losing a party member.
I have high hopes that they can pull it off, and if it is as I have just said - I'm still (going to be) playing. (I think Micro-Transaction was the planned payment method, but then again I don't think anything on the payment scale is finalized).
I embrace change and can't wait to play something different.
Each storyline is, (last I read), supposed to be "hundreds of hours".
TOR has 8 classes, each with unique storylines.
There's also the moral choices to consider; each class storyline offers branching content based on whether the player makes light-side or dark-side choices, further increasing the replay value.
Given an average hour-per-week of 22 and a low-end estimate (assuming that the "hundreds of hours" quote is accurate) of 200 hours per storyline, that's ~9 weeks to complete each storyline, and ~144 weeks to complete all class storylines and explore all light/dark choices.
That's a minimum of 2 and a half years worth of Bioware RPG content, before one even looks at traditional MMO staples such as PvP, RvR, crafting, RP and updates/expansions.
I'm certainly looking forward to it.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I think both of your points are wrong.
DDO has improved 200% thru the use of microtransactions. It is well laid out. It is easy to use. You do not have to buy anything to play the full content of the game. It's fun to play.
RMT has saved DDO which was on the downturn and would have closed by now had RMT not turned it around.
I hope the game is good. I could care less about RMT having experienced it in DDO. It worked well. It helps those that do not want to devote their life to the game, it was a GREAT addition to DDO.
I embrace change and can't wait to play something different.
Then you won't find much to like with SWTOR. Bioware is practically advertising the lack of innovation in this MMO.
"...the real reason The Old Republic is shaping up to be so awesome? Because it's not in the slightest bit innovative."
"So let this be call to action for developers everywhere: Innovation is overrated."
~PC Gamer’s Editor in Chief Gary Steinman
Both games are currently the highest rated PC games at Metacritic and gamerankings.com
Metacritic: 91/100 and 94/100 respectively. And gamerankings.com 90% and 95%, again respectively.
Thus, both games have both critical acclaim and backing of majority of gamers. You belong to the unsatisfied minority regardless of your opinions. There won't be a game, especially a RPG, that will satisfy everyone because the very genre has many successful niches. Bioware's current reach is very wide, but perhaps does not touch your niche.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
What percent of the SWTOR game time to you suppose is listening to dialog versus character controlled gameplay? If its like any other Bioware game then it will be about 50%, making the actual gameplay content about half as long as most classic MMOG's. I think I'd rather read a good book, and spend my game time with a game that I play for more time than I watch.
As Christendom was a revelation for St. Augustine, so was LOTRO a revelation for me. No, a MMO is not all about story. Nor will SWTOR be ALL about story. But what I learned, or shall we say where my appetite changed was by experiencing LOTRO. I can't overemphasize what playing LOTRO did for me. It changed what I want.
Once I played games like EQ2, like SWG. Games where nice quests where scattered over the world, where you just killed and hunted with friends for the sake of, and it was enough for me. Then LOTRO happened, and for me it was like someone had opened a door to a better world. Sure, LOTRO has enough left for improvement in many areas. But where it has converted me is, how every area has meaning and story; how every small quest is somehow related to the big picture, and how all those things weave one big carpet of story, made of small stories. I am so marvelled how often quests are like events! Like when I first left the beginner area. Or in the many book quests which tie up the main plot of both the areas and the whole game world. I still wonder in awe how coherent and interesting that is done, and I look back at my Eq2 and SWG days like an adult smiles at the simple follies of his childhood. Yes I truly think LOTRO is THE milestone in MMO gaming, it gave us a glimpse what can be in MMOs. So in the essence, I see SWTOR as a MMO like I always wanted MMOs to be: basically like a pen and paper game online.
I guess it has to do with the fact that I come from a pen and paper background and I ALWAYS expected MMOs to someday be about plots, about a story, and more than a random "kill 10 of x". Which is unavoidable, but which can be integrated into a much better context. And THAT makes the difference between mindless grind and exciting grind.
Well for me!
When I think of the idea that story is the backbone of a MMO, I think that is great, and I expect things like the LOTRO book quests to make about 50% of SWTOR and the other 50% normal open world random stuff. And at least for me that sounds like something really, really great, given a Star Wars background of all things, at all.
EDIT: As to the "imbalance"of DA and ME2, sorry but you KNOW that in a single player game with a party you NEVER roll a "wiizard" as main char. NOT EVER. It is always way more difficult, and it is always easiest to play a main tank char as yourself in group based single player games. Period. May not be cool, but it really isn't new and it really isn't geniune for Bioware.
EDIT2: And on a purely mechanical level, I think a game like EQ or SWG just would not work anymore. Sandboxes like SWG or slow paced games like EQ (not to speak of UO, which I found ABYSMALLY BAD: having to cross a river 5000 times to raise your boat faring skill! HILARIOUS!) Those things would not work anymore. At least not outside a small community. It's what I bemoan about STO and CO the most: I am tossed back into an EQ era sort of gaming, where quest are tossed all over and there is no coherent story going on.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
When it comes to story development in a game, I think Bioware is one of the best. I think that the game wil be a lot of fun, it wll be interesting to see how your actions affect later events in your story within the game. From what I have seen of the video previews it looks like they have made the game really simplified in a lot of ways, but I think at the same time it will be complex enough to provide various challenges for people, whether it be in pve or pvp. The user interface looks as simple as can be, and I think the reason for that is to attract more people to the game, the easier it is to play (not talking about progression), the more people will play, or at least that is what I think they are trying to do. Overall, I think they might have a really phenomenal game. They seem to be taking their time with it, and make sure that it is a finished game, unlike others (cough* STO cough*).
I also remember reading about the whole microtransactions (i.e. item mall) in one of their interviews somewhere, I don't remember where it was otherwise I would post the link, but from what I do remember they mentioned that they would explore all options including microtransactions, but they also mentioned they wanted to make sure that it was not something that would be a necessity in the game or give peope unfair advantage for the people who chose not to use that feature if they did implement it, which they may not even do. Personally I don't care for item malls, and in a way I kind of feel like it cheapens the quality of the game and players even. It's annoying to see someone in the game that is far beyond you because they went and bought gear, and exp potions and all this other stuff in the mall to give them an advantage in the game.
As for EA and their ownership, I'm pretty sure that all though they may have some input in how they want things to go because they are now the parent-company, I don't think they are willing to take total control and just decide to run things how they want to run things. Bioware has a successful track record and I think that their overall opinion is going to be what matters most. Generally when a company agrees to merge or be bought by a larger company but still remain under their current name it often includes more then just the name...certain practices and powers still stay in place, unless it was because they were in trouble of bankruptcy, but I don't think that was the case in this.
Anyways that's my two cents.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Did you know that Susan Boyle and Taylor Swift had the best selling albums of 2009. If you don't enjoy their music then you are in the minority regardless of your opinion. There won't....j*&&0lf;lkjn .....
hold on...
I think I threw up a little.
Susan F'n Boyle? I'm amazed at what crap people like these days.
The only problem I have with your post is this line here "Than why play online game at all ?".
First of all maybe I play online games simply because that's what I want to play, maybe I don't want to play online at all and just enjoy spending money on them. Point being is we all have our own reasons for doing everything we do and shouldn't need to validate them for you or any other player (no more so than I expect you to validate your reasoning for playing online games).
Most of your post as I see it is your opinion on things and you are entitled to it just as I'm entitled to spend my money on any product I see fit to buy without needing to validate the purchase to you or any other gamer.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
As a huge fan of Bioware's RPG portfolio, I'm really hoping that it is.
It probably all comes down to preferences; I would guess that the MMORPG playing population is split between those who lean heavily towards the MMO elements and those who prefer the RPG elements of any given MMO.
I'm an RPG fan, first and foremost .. so the idea of playing a Bioware RPG in a persistent world where I can interact with thousands of other players is pretty much my ideal MMO model. Others will have different priorities and preferences, of course.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
SWTOR will NOT be releasing in 2010. It is stated for 2011 earliest.
Did you know that Susan Boyle and Taylor Swift had the best selling albums of 2009. If you don't enjoy their music then you are in the minority regardless of your opinion. There won't....j*&&0lf;lkjn .....
hold on...
I think I threw up a little.
Susan F'n Boyle? I'm amazed at what crap people like these days.
I think you got the essence of it. While music business is quite a bit different, it essentially comes down to the customer taste.
Just like in the MMO market. Both WoW and EVE are arguably best what the genre has to offer, but both products are tailored to quite different audience/markets. WoW is the one with the wider appeal while EVE serves a niche. Both are good games in their own merits, but does not mean that you have to like either one of them.
Another example, if somewhat old, is to compare Diablo to Planetscape: Torment.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."