Question is not could 2004 Bioware make good SWTOR. With great games behind them likes of Baldurs Gate and NWN. 2004 Bioware was at their top.
Yet than came the EA buyout. And Bioware produced their first EA+B child : Dragon Age
I would not argue if Dragon Age had good or bad story , since this is highly subjective. But anyone more experienced in RPGs would straight away notice that DA is horribly unbalanced RPG. With some classes horribly useless, other superbly overpowered. Number of skills that were complete waste of space, and other that made no sense at all (other lower skill in same tree being actually stronger). And finally up to complete game unbalance, with random encounter of archer bandits being more challenging than end game archdemon.
Than comes another EA+B child : Mass Effect 2 Again. Story great ( not judging it now ) - but horribly unbalanced RPG (and this time stripped and simplified to the bone. Barely resembling RPG) Biotic classes being completely nerfed by the game mechanic. Made almost useless as main characters. Almost every good thing from MA1 removed and replaced.
So I ask myself. What would happen in MMO , if Bioware can not even balance singleplayer RPG ? Or design engaging RPG ruleset ?
I mean sure they can write wicked good story. But will the STORY be the reason you are playing SWTOR ? Is the story reason you are playing MMO ? Than why play online game at all ?
Purely single player games have no need to be balanced. That is a multiplayer concept.
The focus of single player games is to have multiple possible playstyles for replayabilty and diversity. Both Mass Effect and Dragons age do that pretty well.
Both Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 are great games that have personally lived up to all of my expectations for them. If anything, this only serves to increase my faith that Bioware can make SWTOR with their usual level of quality.
As long as the game world isn't to Linear i think SWTOR will be a great game. I like bioware games except for the fact they are kinda linear, and I just noticed that its not what I want in a game anymore since playing Dragon Age. I guess I got spoiled by some of the more open games like Oblivion and Fallen Earth, Vanguard. DA was a good game save for I cant really go wherever I want to go.
But one thing that Im excited about is npc interaction, I actually get to talk to a NPC in a MMORPG and get to say something back to the npc's and depending what I say will determine the outcome.Granted its not my own questions and what-not ,but its better than the lame click on a npc read some pop up and all you can do is except the quest or not. To me that is so out of date its not even funny and boring as hell. I liked how FFXI took quests a step forward and gave a cut scene for it to bring in some immersion, and how EQ2 had voice overs to help bring the NPC's to life.
Bioware is taking things a step forward with putting dialog where you get to choose what to say. I like stories in my games and actually like learning about the lore, its just I'm not a big fan of reading. So with these cut scenes and stuff will help me get into the game more.
Haha The amount of spineless herd animals never ceases to amaze me. So yes to your question. If you put it that way, everyone is wrong and I am right. Or as they call it in thinking human circles: Having your own oppinion And i am proud to be different from the mindless cows that chew the grass they place before them, never thinking things could be better... but that is your generation.
Also people really dont care, or dont know what MMO is. Thanks to newcommers. They think MMO is some singleplayer game with cutscenes , and scripted events - with multiplayer capability. Something we used to call singleplayer game not more than a year ago...how times change (helped with multimillion dollar marketing brainwash)
Bioware MMO will be a good and long singleplayer game. With multiplayer co-op , yet probably faulty and unbalanced classes. Is this a good thing? Yes and no.
A good MMO ? NO
While people like you are trying to labels on stuff.You miss the point of playing games,To have fun.You just said Bioware mmo would be good game.What more do you need ? I will let you guys worry about if it is a good sandbox,themepark,open world,Instance,whatever it will be good game.
A good game you can play with lots of people.I will take that.
I've always gotten a kick out of the argument that if something is popular and highly rated then anyone that doesn't like it must be wrong, misinformed, stupid, or otherwise broken in some way.
When I read people's hopes and dreams for SWTOR (which is about all we really have to work with ATM), its always about how they will enjoy the dialog, the characters, and the decisions they will make. I have yet to see someone get excited about the teamwork, player interaction, achievements for their guild and friends, or anything else that involves another player. I know people are assuming that will be present, but its rarely something that is motivating people's excitement.
One thing is for sure, we have seen the effects of highly instanced games with Guild Wars, HGL, DDO, CoX, and to a lesser extent CO. Not having other players freely wandering into your instances definitely makes the play experience different. I'm don't think the long term effects of this after playing for a long time are positive at all. In fact, I think its the random unpredictable player interactions that have gotten people interested in this genre.
I've always gotten a kick out of the argument that if something is popular and highly rated then anyone that doesn't like it must be wrong, misinformed, stupid, or otherwise broken in some way.
When I read people's hopes and dreams for SWTOR (which is about all we really have to work with ATM), its always about how they will enjoy the dialog, the characters, and the decisions they will make. I have yet to see someone get excited about the teamwork, player interaction, achievements for their guild and friends, or anything else that involves another player. I know people are assuming that will be present, but its rarely something that is motivating people's excitement.
One thing is for sure, we have seen the effects of highly instanced games with Guild Wars, HGL, DDO, CoX, and to a lesser extent CO. Not having other players freely wandering into your instances definitely makes the play experience different. I'm don't think the long term effects of this after playing for a long time are positive at all. In fact, I think its the random unpredictable player interactions that have gotten people interested in this genre.
Thats quite a turn from how you felt when we were both testing CO. Not that it matters.. instances are in pretty much every mainstream game... even FE with its completely open world. Just because a game utilizes some instances doesn't mean that you won't see players wandering freely around during missions. This is the kind of misinformation people keep spreading because they don't bother reading what the game features are.
Just as I said before.. anything that seems to be popular is automatically deemed as "dumbed down" for the majority in this community. At no point can a game stand on the merit that people are actually liking what they are hearing and are excited about the features, content, and gameplay. All that is irrelevant, because for a select few that dislike the game based on their OPINIONS.. if THEY don't like it.. everyone who does must be an idiot. This is what we like to call a preference... and just because yours differs at the moment with the majority of people looking into this game... it doesn't mean the game is going to be bad, be a failure, or be without confirmed features because of YOUR opinion.
Just because a game utilizes some instances doesn't mean that you won't see players wandering freely around during missions. This is the kind of misinformation people keep spreading because they don't bother reading what the game features are.
How do you suppose they will make dialog have consequences without it being contained to an instance? The dialog trees didn't matter much in AoC's open zones. They quickly devolved into *click* *click* *click* then run off to do your standard MMOG quest. The speech didn't really make it a better game. In fact, for me what killed AoC was the constant load screens and the fractured world layout, the exact same thing Bioware has done with every RPG they have made. Small zones, lots of loads, divided world layout with little continuity.
It didn't bother me as much in CO or TR since the zones were big and you aren't loading quite as often. I'll still gladly take a WoW or FE style open world over that.
Originally posted by maskedweasel Just as I said before.. anything that seems to be popular is automatically deemed as "dumbed down" for the majority in this community. At no point can a game stand on the merit that people are actually liking what they are hearing and are excited about the features, content, and gameplay. All that is irrelevant, because for a select few that dislike the game based on their OPINIONS.. if THEY don't like it.. everyone who does must be an idiot. This is what we like to call a preference... and just because yours differs at the moment with the majority of people looking into this game... it doesn't mean the game is going to be bad, be a failure, or be without confirmed features because of YOUR opinion.
Go back to page 6. I said that I KNOW SWTOR will be a great success. I never claimed anything but my own preferences in this thread. I know I respond directly to comments, but I don't mean to imply anyone is an idiot, especially another grizzly old veteran like yourself MaskedWeasel!
And I am saying it will be dumbed down because I have seen this happen first hand in Bioware games over the last decade. There is no way anyone can say that DA has the depth of game mechanics that BG2 had so many years ago. Their games are now being designed for mass appeal. Its almost a rule for anything that has mass appeal that it be streamlined and intellectually de-emphasized. Of course if SWTOR comes out and has even 1/10th the complexity of something like Eve I'll gladly eat those words. No really, I'll come back to this post, print it out, and eat them... Really.
Just because a game utilizes some instances doesn't mean that you won't see players wandering freely around during missions. This is the kind of misinformation people keep spreading because they don't bother reading what the game features are.
How do you suppose they will make dialog have consequences without it being contained to an instance? The dialog trees didn't matter much in AoC's open zones. They quickly devolved into *click* *click* *click* then run off to do your standard MMOG quest. The speech didn't really make it a better game. In fact, for me what killed AoC was the constant load screens and the fractured world layout, the exact same thing Bioware has done with every RPG they have made. Small zones, lots of loads, divided world layout with little continuity.
It didn't bother me as much in CO or TR since the zones were big and you aren't loading quite as often. I'll still gladly take a WoW or FE style open world over that.
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Just as I said before.. anything that seems to be popular is automatically deemed as "dumbed down" for the majority in this community. At no point can a game stand on the merit that people are actually liking what they are hearing and are excited about the features, content, and gameplay. All that is irrelevant, because for a select few that dislike the game based on their OPINIONS.. if THEY don't like it.. everyone who does must be an idiot. This is what we like to call a preference... and just because yours differs at the moment with the majority of people looking into this game... it doesn't mean the game is going to be bad, be a failure, or be without confirmed features because of YOUR opinion.
Go back to page 6. I said that I KNOW SWTOR will be a great success. I never claimed anything but my own preferences in this thread. I know I respond directly to comments, but I don't mean to imply anyone is an idiot, especially another grizzly old veteran like yourself MaskedWeasel!
And I am saying it will be dumbed down because I have seen this happen first hand in Bioware games over the last decade. There is no way anyone can say that DA has the depth of game mechanics that BG2 had so many years ago. Their games are now being designed for mass appeal. Its almost a rule for anything that has mass appeal that it be streamlined and intellectually de-emphasized. Of course if SWTOR comes out and has even 1/10th the complexity of something like Eve I'll gladly eat those words. No really, I'll come back to this post, print it out, and eat them... Really.
I didn't mean to imply it was YOUR opinion directly aganazer, I meant "your" as more of a blanket for everyone who feels that way.. not you directly.. meaning only you.. I suppose that should have been more clear on my part.
As to the first part, I completely agree that they will have to instance when you pick up a quest, or turn in a quest.. and thats how they've portrayed it being in the current state of the game. The thing is, when I pick up and turn in missions in any other game, I'm not really interacting with the other players at the quest line.. I'm just picking it up, heading to the mission area, sometimes I'll start a pick up group at the mission area, but I rarely get picked up at the quest giver. I feel immersion wise, picking up a quest and turning it in can do just as well instanced as having a ton of people standing around the quest giver for any amount of time trying to decide on quest rewards, or reading whatever text the developers threw out there. I don't see it being a game killer that you are instanced to make your own choices (or have your group assist you with those choices) as long as a large part of the gameplay resides outside the instance.. which they did say would happen.
As for the complexity of eve.. its really two very different games. Complexity is also subject to interpretation... I mean you could say the crafting in Vanguard was complex, or maybe the ship building in SWG, or understanding the skill trees in FE is complex, or understanding the talent trees, or class specialties in WoW and WAR as complex. Do I think the gameplay will be complex? No. I wouldn't expect it to be any more complex then an FPS but not any less complex then WoW. Do I think the crafting will be complex? Its possible.. though it wasn't complex in KoToR. I do think there are many areas for complexities .. but I'm not sure if all areas will make it in the game. What I do know WILL be complex is the character progression.. as the storylines are always complex in a BioWare game.
I also don't agree that BioWare has dumbed down their gameplay, though its always been somewhat linear. I like the idea of going everywhere in an MMO, and so far from the videos.. it looks like we can do just that. For the most part its still too early to tell exactly what all we will be able to do in game... but so far, what I have seen is pretty exciting.. to me at least.
Just because a game utilizes some instances doesn't mean that you won't see players wandering freely around during missions. This is the kind of misinformation people keep spreading because they don't bother reading what the game features are.
How do you suppose they will make dialog have consequences without it being contained to an instance? The dialog trees didn't matter much in AoC's open zones. They quickly devolved into *click* *click* *click* then run off to do your standard MMOG quest. The speech didn't really make it a better game. In fact, for me what killed AoC was the constant load screens and the fractured world layout, the exact same thing Bioware has done with every RPG they have made. Small zones, lots of loads, divided world layout with little continuity.
It didn't bother me as much in CO or TR since the zones were big and you aren't loading quite as often. I'll still gladly take a WoW or FE style open world over that.
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Just as I said before.. anything that seems to be popular is automatically deemed as "dumbed down" for the majority in this community. At no point can a game stand on the merit that people are actually liking what they are hearing and are excited about the features, content, and gameplay. All that is irrelevant, because for a select few that dislike the game based on their OPINIONS.. if THEY don't like it.. everyone who does must be an idiot. This is what we like to call a preference... and just because yours differs at the moment with the majority of people looking into this game... it doesn't mean the game is going to be bad, be a failure, or be without confirmed features because of YOUR opinion.
Go back to page 6. I said that I KNOW SWTOR will be a great success. I never claimed anything but my own preferences in this thread. I know I respond directly to comments, but I don't mean to imply anyone is an idiot, especially another grizzly old veteran like yourself MaskedWeasel!
And I am saying it will be dumbed down because I have seen this happen first hand in Bioware games over the last decade. There is no way anyone can say that DA has the depth of game mechanics that BG2 had so many years ago. Their games are now being designed for mass appeal. Its almost a rule for anything that has mass appeal that it be streamlined and intellectually de-emphasized. Of course if SWTOR comes out and has even 1/10th the complexity of something like Eve I'll gladly eat those words. No really, I'll come back to this post, print it out, and eat them... Really.
I didn't mean to imply it was YOUR opinion directly aganazer, I meant "your" as more of a blanket for everyone who feels that way.. not you directly.. meaning only you.. I suppose that should have been more clear on my part.
As to the first part, I completely agree that they will have to instance when you pick up a quest, or turn in a quest.. and thats how they've portrayed it being in the current state of the game. The thing is, when I pick up and turn in missions in any other game, I'm not really interacting with the other players at the quest line.. I'm just picking it up, heading to the mission area, sometimes I'll start a pick up group at the mission area, but I rarely get picked up at the quest giver. I feel immersion wise, picking up a quest and turning it in can do just as well instanced as having a ton of people standing around the quest giver for any amount of time trying to decide on quest rewards, or reading whatever text the developers threw out there. I don't see it being a game killer that you are instanced to make your own choices (or have your group assist you with those choices) as long as a large part of the gameplay resides outside the instance.. which they did say would happen.
As for the complexity of eve.. its really two very different games. Complexity is also subject to interpretation... I mean you could say the crafting in Vanguard was complex, or maybe the ship building in SWG, or understanding the skill trees in FE is complex, or understanding the talent trees, or class specialties in WoW and WAR as complex. Do I think the gameplay will be complex? No. I wouldn't expect it to be any more complex then an FPS but not any less complex then WoW. Do I think the crafting will be complex? Its possible.. though it wasn't complex in KoToR. I do think there are many areas for complexities .. but I'm not sure if all areas will make it in the game. What I do know WILL be complex is the character progression.. as the storylines are always complex in a BioWare game.
I also don't agree that BioWare has dumbed down their gameplay, though its always been somewhat linear. I like the idea of going everywhere in an MMO, and so far from the videos.. it looks like we can do just that. For the most part its still too early to tell exactly what all we will be able to do in game... but so far, what I have seen is pretty exciting.. to me at least.
Whether instancing works or not depends on how they design the rest of the game. They worked pretty well in City of Heroes, for example, simply because you could do a lot of things with an instance apart from treating it like a simple quest: you could modify the difficulty, for example, and the game would modify it on its own depending on how many players were entering it. This let you solo a lot of the content and at the same time promoted group play, which, in my experience, has been the best group play I've had in an MMO (and I've played team-oriented games like DAoC). That way you could control the pacing and the intensity of play, which is always a bonus. In the end, it depends on stuff we really can't comment yet for SWTOR.
As for Bioware having dumbed down their gameplay, yes they have, man. A lot. It's not entirely a matter of opinion; you can go ahead and play Baldur's Gate or even Icewind Dale and their combat systems are quite a lot deeper than what Dragon Age or even KOTOR offer. The fact that those games could be played multiplayer without disrupting the story is a starting indicator of how much Bioware have sacrificed in gameplay to the gods of Story Mode. Anyone remember being a wizard in those games? Every new one was different simply because you had to learn the bloody scrolls you found scattered around the world, and it was really fucking exciting when you had this BIG spell in a scroll you could learn, but could possibly fail to do so and lose the damn thing.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I mean, I completely loved Dragon Age despite its limitations, and I remember those old RPGs with a lot of nostalgia. We'll see how SWTOR fares.
Originally posted by Battlekruse Microtransactions are the worst thing to ever have been included in games.
While I agree with you for the most part, there are plenty of players who don't feel compelled to spend alot fo money just to compete/keep up with those who do. There are alot of palyers who are perfectly happy being scrubs.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Just because a game utilizes some instances doesn't mean that you won't see players wandering freely around during missions. This is the kind of misinformation people keep spreading because they don't bother reading what the game features are.
How do you suppose they will make dialog have consequences without it being contained to an instance? The dialog trees didn't matter much in AoC's open zones. They quickly devolved into *click* *click* *click* then run off to do your standard MMOG quest. The speech didn't really make it a better game. In fact, for me what killed AoC was the constant load screens and the fractured world layout, the exact same thing Bioware has done with every RPG they have made. Small zones, lots of loads, divided world layout with little continuity.
It didn't bother me as much in CO or TR since the zones were big and you aren't loading quite as often. I'll still gladly take a WoW or FE style open world over that.
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Just as I said before.. anything that seems to be popular is automatically deemed as "dumbed down" for the majority in this community. At no point can a game stand on the merit that people are actually liking what they are hearing and are excited about the features, content, and gameplay. All that is irrelevant, because for a select few that dislike the game based on their OPINIONS.. if THEY don't like it.. everyone who does must be an idiot. This is what we like to call a preference... and just because yours differs at the moment with the majority of people looking into this game... it doesn't mean the game is going to be bad, be a failure, or be without confirmed features because of YOUR opinion.
Go back to page 6. I said that I KNOW SWTOR will be a great success. I never claimed anything but my own preferences in this thread. I know I respond directly to comments, but I don't mean to imply anyone is an idiot, especially another grizzly old veteran like yourself MaskedWeasel!
And I am saying it will be dumbed down because I have seen this happen first hand in Bioware games over the last decade. There is no way anyone can say that DA has the depth of game mechanics that BG2 had so many years ago. Their games are now being designed for mass appeal. Its almost a rule for anything that has mass appeal that it be streamlined and intellectually de-emphasized. Of course if SWTOR comes out and has even 1/10th the complexity of something like Eve I'll gladly eat those words. No really, I'll come back to this post, print it out, and eat them... Really.
I didn't mean to imply it was YOUR opinion directly aganazer, I meant "your" as more of a blanket for everyone who feels that way.. not you directly.. meaning only you.. I suppose that should have been more clear on my part.
As to the first part, I completely agree that they will have to instance when you pick up a quest, or turn in a quest.. and thats how they've portrayed it being in the current state of the game. The thing is, when I pick up and turn in missions in any other game, I'm not really interacting with the other players at the quest line.. I'm just picking it up, heading to the mission area, sometimes I'll start a pick up group at the mission area, but I rarely get picked up at the quest giver. I feel immersion wise, picking up a quest and turning it in can do just as well instanced as having a ton of people standing around the quest giver for any amount of time trying to decide on quest rewards, or reading whatever text the developers threw out there. I don't see it being a game killer that you are instanced to make your own choices (or have your group assist you with those choices) as long as a large part of the gameplay resides outside the instance.. which they did say would happen.
As for the complexity of eve.. its really two very different games. Complexity is also subject to interpretation... I mean you could say the crafting in Vanguard was complex, or maybe the ship building in SWG, or understanding the skill trees in FE is complex, or understanding the talent trees, or class specialties in WoW and WAR as complex. Do I think the gameplay will be complex? No. I wouldn't expect it to be any more complex then an FPS but not any less complex then WoW. Do I think the crafting will be complex? Its possible.. though it wasn't complex in KoToR. I do think there are many areas for complexities .. but I'm not sure if all areas will make it in the game. What I do know WILL be complex is the character progression.. as the storylines are always complex in a BioWare game.
I also don't agree that BioWare has dumbed down their gameplay, though its always been somewhat linear. I like the idea of going everywhere in an MMO, and so far from the videos.. it looks like we can do just that. For the most part its still too early to tell exactly what all we will be able to do in game... but so far, what I have seen is pretty exciting.. to me at least.
As for Bioware having dumbed down their gameplay, yes they have, man. A lot. It's not entirely a matter of opinion; you can go ahead and play Baldur's Gate or even Icewind Dale and their combat systems are quite a lot deeper than what Dragon Age or even KOTOR offer. The fact that those games could be played multiplayer without disrupting the story is a starting indicator of how much Bioware have sacrificed in gameplay to the gods of Story Mode. Anyone remember being a wizard in those games? Every new one was different simply because you had to learn the bloody scrolls you found scattered around the world, and it was really fucking exciting when you had this BIG spell in a scroll you could learn, but could possibly fail to do so and lose the damn thing.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I mean, I completely loved Dragon Age despite its limitations, and I remember those old RPGs with a lot of nostalgia. We'll see how SWTOR fares.
I agree that those games and even NwN 1 and 2 had a lot of deep gameplay. Those are completely different games though. Whos to say that if there was a Baldurs Gate 3 that they wouldn't have the same gameplay? In the sense of KoToR I feel they made the best choice for the game they were creating. Biowares created some great games, but it doesn't mean they should only create one style of play. I liked Baldurs gate, and I liked NwN2 ... but they've also developed the sonic chronicles, jade empire, and kotor.
I don't think that they can't or won't be able to develop games like they have previously, but its obvious we won't see it from the recent titles they've launched. They did mention in the interview today that they had a number of reveals for E3 and they have a lot of other unanounced titles in the works.. so as far as we know, something with that kind of gameplay could be in the works. It just won't be ToR.
Baldur's Gate and co were great games in their time. I just recently tried to replay Baldur's Gate 2, but it is really hard to like the clunky UI that the game has. Memories from the game are actually better than the reality of it. Nostalgia is a bitch.
The D&D ruleset was one of the reasons why games from that period were so "complicated". It helped that many fans were familiar with the ruleset already. In NW1, I remember having complex spreadsheets to plan my "optimal" character. Also, turn-based combat, like in BG2 and Fallout 1&2 was also the trademark of the period that did require more tactical thinking, but also put off many people looking for more action orientated games.
The fact is that it would be pretty hard to design games like that today. Most RPGs are designed for multiplatforms. It would also be hard to get the mainstream gamers to like them. They were pretty unforgiving (attributes, dual and multiclassing, skills etc....one mistake and you could have frakked up your character for the next 5 levels) and thus not suitable for those looking for instant gratification at all. A lot of the streamlining and simplifying is actually done good for the genre. More people are likely to pickup RPGs. This is a good thing.
Because RPGs like Mass Effect and Kotor have hit the sweetspot in the gamer market, another thing that has happened. Production values and budgets have gone way up. However, as seen in Mass Effect 2, it will be nearly impossible for a small studio to match that quality of production, which is a negative side.
Overall, I enjoy RPGs as much today, as I did back in the day. The genre will go through different metamorphoses periodically and I would not expect anything else.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
There's nothing wrong with a MMO with a little Story involved, it gives you a break from the "kill 1000 of this to gain 1 level" feeling.
Story driven MMO's are extremely rare, and I am looking forward to what SWTOR has to offer. Let's just hope they don't get too money hungry and abandon player morals for cold hard cash.
Just because a game utilizes some instances doesn't mean that you won't see players wandering freely around during missions. This is the kind of misinformation people keep spreading because they don't bother reading what the game features are.
How do you suppose they will make dialog have consequences without it being contained to an instance? The dialog trees didn't matter much in AoC's open zones. They quickly devolved into *click* *click* *click* then run off to do your standard MMOG quest. The speech didn't really make it a better game. In fact, for me what killed AoC was the constant load screens and the fractured world layout, the exact same thing Bioware has done with every RPG they have made. Small zones, lots of loads, divided world layout with little continuity.
It didn't bother me as much in CO or TR since the zones were big and you aren't loading quite as often. I'll still gladly take a WoW or FE style open world over that.
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Just as I said before.. anything that seems to be popular is automatically deemed as "dumbed down" for the majority in this community. At no point can a game stand on the merit that people are actually liking what they are hearing and are excited about the features, content, and gameplay. All that is irrelevant, because for a select few that dislike the game based on their OPINIONS.. if THEY don't like it.. everyone who does must be an idiot. This is what we like to call a preference... and just because yours differs at the moment with the majority of people looking into this game... it doesn't mean the game is going to be bad, be a failure, or be without confirmed features because of YOUR opinion.
Go back to page 6. I said that I KNOW SWTOR will be a great success. I never claimed anything but my own preferences in this thread. I know I respond directly to comments, but I don't mean to imply anyone is an idiot, especially another grizzly old veteran like yourself MaskedWeasel!
And I am saying it will be dumbed down because I have seen this happen first hand in Bioware games over the last decade. There is no way anyone can say that DA has the depth of game mechanics that BG2 had so many years ago. Their games are now being designed for mass appeal. Its almost a rule for anything that has mass appeal that it be streamlined and intellectually de-emphasized. Of course if SWTOR comes out and has even 1/10th the complexity of something like Eve I'll gladly eat those words. No really, I'll come back to this post, print it out, and eat them... Really.
I didn't mean to imply it was YOUR opinion directly aganazer, I meant "your" as more of a blanket for everyone who feels that way.. not you directly.. meaning only you.. I suppose that should have been more clear on my part.
As to the first part, I completely agree that they will have to instance when you pick up a quest, or turn in a quest.. and thats how they've portrayed it being in the current state of the game. The thing is, when I pick up and turn in missions in any other game, I'm not really interacting with the other players at the quest line.. I'm just picking it up, heading to the mission area, sometimes I'll start a pick up group at the mission area, but I rarely get picked up at the quest giver. I feel immersion wise, picking up a quest and turning it in can do just as well instanced as having a ton of people standing around the quest giver for any amount of time trying to decide on quest rewards, or reading whatever text the developers threw out there. I don't see it being a game killer that you are instanced to make your own choices (or have your group assist you with those choices) as long as a large part of the gameplay resides outside the instance.. which they did say would happen.
As for the complexity of eve.. its really two very different games. Complexity is also subject to interpretation... I mean you could say the crafting in Vanguard was complex, or maybe the ship building in SWG, or understanding the skill trees in FE is complex, or understanding the talent trees, or class specialties in WoW and WAR as complex. Do I think the gameplay will be complex? No. I wouldn't expect it to be any more complex then an FPS but not any less complex then WoW. Do I think the crafting will be complex? Its possible.. though it wasn't complex in KoToR. I do think there are many areas for complexities .. but I'm not sure if all areas will make it in the game. What I do know WILL be complex is the character progression.. as the storylines are always complex in a BioWare game.
I also don't agree that BioWare has dumbed down their gameplay, though its always been somewhat linear. I like the idea of going everywhere in an MMO, and so far from the videos.. it looks like we can do just that. For the most part its still too early to tell exactly what all we will be able to do in game... but so far, what I have seen is pretty exciting.. to me at least.
As for Bioware having dumbed down their gameplay, yes they have, man. A lot. It's not entirely a matter of opinion; you can go ahead and play Baldur's Gate or even Icewind Dale and their combat systems are quite a lot deeper than what Dragon Age or even KOTOR offer. The fact that those games could be played multiplayer without disrupting the story is a starting indicator of how much Bioware have sacrificed in gameplay to the gods of Story Mode. Anyone remember being a wizard in those games? Every new one was different simply because you had to learn the bloody scrolls you found scattered around the world, and it was really fucking exciting when you had this BIG spell in a scroll you could learn, but could possibly fail to do so and lose the damn thing.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I mean, I completely loved Dragon Age despite its limitations, and I remember those old RPGs with a lot of nostalgia. We'll see how SWTOR fares.
I agree that those games and even NwN 1 and 2 had a lot of deep gameplay. Those are completely different games though. Whos to say that if there was a Baldurs Gate 3 that they wouldn't have the same gameplay? In the sense of KoToR I feel they made the best choice for the game they were creating. Biowares created some great games, but it doesn't mean they should only create one style of play. I liked Baldurs gate, and I liked NwN2 ... but they've also developed the sonic chronicles, jade empire, and kotor.
I don't think that they can't or won't be able to develop games like they have previously, but its obvious we won't see it from the recent titles they've launched. They did mention in the interview today that they had a number of reveals for E3 and they have a lot of other unanounced titles in the works.. so as far as we know, something with that kind of gameplay could be in the works. It just won't be ToR.
What does NwN 2 have to do with anything? That isn't a Bioware game.
Just because a game utilizes some instances doesn't mean that you won't see players wandering freely around during missions. This is the kind of misinformation people keep spreading because they don't bother reading what the game features are.
How do you suppose they will make dialog have consequences without it being contained to an instance? The dialog trees didn't matter much in AoC's open zones. They quickly devolved into *click* *click* *click* then run off to do your standard MMOG quest. The speech didn't really make it a better game. In fact, for me what killed AoC was the constant load screens and the fractured world layout, the exact same thing Bioware has done with every RPG they have made. Small zones, lots of loads, divided world layout with little continuity.
It didn't bother me as much in CO or TR since the zones were big and you aren't loading quite as often. I'll still gladly take a WoW or FE style open world over that.
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Just as I said before.. anything that seems to be popular is automatically deemed as "dumbed down" for the majority in this community. At no point can a game stand on the merit that people are actually liking what they are hearing and are excited about the features, content, and gameplay. All that is irrelevant, because for a select few that dislike the game based on their OPINIONS.. if THEY don't like it.. everyone who does must be an idiot. This is what we like to call a preference... and just because yours differs at the moment with the majority of people looking into this game... it doesn't mean the game is going to be bad, be a failure, or be without confirmed features because of YOUR opinion.
Go back to page 6. I said that I KNOW SWTOR will be a great success. I never claimed anything but my own preferences in this thread. I know I respond directly to comments, but I don't mean to imply anyone is an idiot, especially another grizzly old veteran like yourself MaskedWeasel!
And I am saying it will be dumbed down because I have seen this happen first hand in Bioware games over the last decade. There is no way anyone can say that DA has the depth of game mechanics that BG2 had so many years ago. Their games are now being designed for mass appeal. Its almost a rule for anything that has mass appeal that it be streamlined and intellectually de-emphasized. Of course if SWTOR comes out and has even 1/10th the complexity of something like Eve I'll gladly eat those words. No really, I'll come back to this post, print it out, and eat them... Really.
I didn't mean to imply it was YOUR opinion directly aganazer, I meant "your" as more of a blanket for everyone who feels that way.. not you directly.. meaning only you.. I suppose that should have been more clear on my part.
As to the first part, I completely agree that they will have to instance when you pick up a quest, or turn in a quest.. and thats how they've portrayed it being in the current state of the game. The thing is, when I pick up and turn in missions in any other game, I'm not really interacting with the other players at the quest line.. I'm just picking it up, heading to the mission area, sometimes I'll start a pick up group at the mission area, but I rarely get picked up at the quest giver. I feel immersion wise, picking up a quest and turning it in can do just as well instanced as having a ton of people standing around the quest giver for any amount of time trying to decide on quest rewards, or reading whatever text the developers threw out there. I don't see it being a game killer that you are instanced to make your own choices (or have your group assist you with those choices) as long as a large part of the gameplay resides outside the instance.. which they did say would happen.
As for the complexity of eve.. its really two very different games. Complexity is also subject to interpretation... I mean you could say the crafting in Vanguard was complex, or maybe the ship building in SWG, or understanding the skill trees in FE is complex, or understanding the talent trees, or class specialties in WoW and WAR as complex. Do I think the gameplay will be complex? No. I wouldn't expect it to be any more complex then an FPS but not any less complex then WoW. Do I think the crafting will be complex? Its possible.. though it wasn't complex in KoToR. I do think there are many areas for complexities .. but I'm not sure if all areas will make it in the game. What I do know WILL be complex is the character progression.. as the storylines are always complex in a BioWare game.
I also don't agree that BioWare has dumbed down their gameplay, though its always been somewhat linear. I like the idea of going everywhere in an MMO, and so far from the videos.. it looks like we can do just that. For the most part its still too early to tell exactly what all we will be able to do in game... but so far, what I have seen is pretty exciting.. to me at least.
As for Bioware having dumbed down their gameplay, yes they have, man. A lot. It's not entirely a matter of opinion; you can go ahead and play Baldur's Gate or even Icewind Dale and their combat systems are quite a lot deeper than what Dragon Age or even KOTOR offer. The fact that those games could be played multiplayer without disrupting the story is a starting indicator of how much Bioware have sacrificed in gameplay to the gods of Story Mode. Anyone remember being a wizard in those games? Every new one was different simply because you had to learn the bloody scrolls you found scattered around the world, and it was really fucking exciting when you had this BIG spell in a scroll you could learn, but could possibly fail to do so and lose the damn thing.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I mean, I completely loved Dragon Age despite its limitations, and I remember those old RPGs with a lot of nostalgia. We'll see how SWTOR fares.
I agree that those games and even NwN 1 and 2 had a lot of deep gameplay. Those are completely different games though. Whos to say that if there was a Baldurs Gate 3 that they wouldn't have the same gameplay? In the sense of KoToR I feel they made the best choice for the game they were creating. Biowares created some great games, but it doesn't mean they should only create one style of play. I liked Baldurs gate, and I liked NwN2 ... but they've also developed the sonic chronicles, jade empire, and kotor.
I don't think that they can't or won't be able to develop games like they have previously, but its obvious we won't see it from the recent titles they've launched. They did mention in the interview today that they had a number of reveals for E3 and they have a lot of other unanounced titles in the works.. so as far as we know, something with that kind of gameplay could be in the works. It just won't be ToR.
What does NwN 2 have to do with anything? That isn't a Bioware game.
You are right, but it was built on Biowares game engine, and NWN 1 was created by bioware.
Question is not could 2004 Bioware make good SWTOR. With great games behind them likes of Baldurs Gate and NWN. 2004 Bioware was at their top.
Yet than came the EA buyout. And Bioware produced their first EA+B child : Dragon Age
I would not argue if Dragon Age had good or bad story , since this is highly subjective. But anyone more experienced in RPGs would straight away notice that DA is horribly unbalanced RPG. With some classes horribly useless, other superbly overpowered. Number of skills that were complete waste of space, and other that made no sense at all (other lower skill in same tree being actually stronger). And finally up to complete game unbalance, with random encounter of archer bandits being more challenging than end game archdemon.
Than comes another EA+B child : Mass Effect 2 Again. Story great ( not judging it now ) - but horribly unbalanced RPG (and this time stripped and simplified to the bone. Barely resembling RPG) Biotic classes being completely nerfed by the game mechanic. Made almost useless as main characters. Almost every good thing from MA1 removed and replaced.
So I ask myself. What would happen in MMO , if Bioware can not even balance singleplayer RPG ? Or design engaging RPG ruleset ?
I mean sure they can write wicked good story. But will the STORY be the reason you are playing SWTOR ? Is the story reason you are playing MMO ? Than why play online game at all ?
I agree on DA its very casual and it seems to much attention on npc voices and story telling then actual gameplay.
Many times bad pathfinding by partymembers or mobs.
Flemeth as dragon is way more chellenging then archdemon end boss.
Nightmare is easy.
Biowares mmo will be very casual like wow with alot of fluff no substance that will be much of chellenge im affraid.
They have seen blizzard how they did it so they come with sci fi mmo with starwars IP and make it similar as wow very casual and prolly every pc can run it like WoW and succes guarenteed is my prediction.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but I don't want to shift through 10 pages of posts:
EA produced games metacritic scores:
Dragon Age: PC - 91, PS3 - 87, Xbox 360 - 86
Mass Effect 2: PC - 95, Xbox 360 - 96
Sonic Chronicles The Dark Brotherhood: DS - 74
No major involvement from EA (for the ones that have metacritic scores):
Baldur's Gate: PC - 91
Neverwinter Nights: PC - 91
KOTOR: PC - 93, Xbox - 94
Jade Empire: PC - 81, Xbox - 89
Mass Effect: PC - 89, Xbox 360 - 91
Note that older games without too much critical acclaim or popularity don't get listed on metacritic typically. In this case I couldn't get a score for Bioware's first game Shattered Steel and MDK2.
What's all this data tell you? That Bioware is still making games that the critics like (with the exception of maybe Sonic Chronicles, though it still got an okay score, it was also Bioware's first attempt at a handheld game) which probably means most gamers still enjoy them too. I think the OP is just be pretty nit-picky. There were terrible classes in old Bioware games too (try making a class in KOTOR that doesn't focus on combat mainly for instance and remember that Jedis are overpowered and should be your only party members, the rest are useless) so I don't get why this rant would be specific to newer Bioware games.
BioWare just make good games in general. They've yet to make a game I didn't consider at least "good", although I can understand non-RPG lovers not being too interested in what they do. The main thing I worry about is they're EA-owned. But I'll let their game speak for itself when it comes out 2011/2012 (hopefully).
Comments
Purely single player games have no need to be balanced. That is a multiplayer concept.
The focus of single player games is to have multiple possible playstyles for replayabilty and diversity. Both Mass Effect and Dragons age do that pretty well.
Both Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 are great games that have personally lived up to all of my expectations for them. If anything, this only serves to increase my faith that Bioware can make SWTOR with their usual level of quality.
I think this game will be great.
As long as the game world isn't to Linear i think SWTOR will be a great game. I like bioware games except for the fact they are kinda linear, and I just noticed that its not what I want in a game anymore since playing Dragon Age. I guess I got spoiled by some of the more open games like Oblivion and Fallen Earth, Vanguard. DA was a good game save for I cant really go wherever I want to go.
But one thing that Im excited about is npc interaction, I actually get to talk to a NPC in a MMORPG and get to say something back to the npc's and depending what I say will determine the outcome.Granted its not my own questions and what-not ,but its better than the lame click on a npc read some pop up and all you can do is except the quest or not. To me that is so out of date its not even funny and boring as hell. I liked how FFXI took quests a step forward and gave a cut scene for it to bring in some immersion, and how EQ2 had voice overs to help bring the NPC's to life.
Bioware is taking things a step forward with putting dialog where you get to choose what to say. I like stories in my games and actually like learning about the lore, its just I'm not a big fan of reading. So with these cut scenes and stuff will help me get into the game more.
While people like you are trying to labels on stuff.You miss the point of playing games,To have fun.You just said Bioware mmo would be good game.What more do you need ? I will let you guys worry about if it is a good sandbox,themepark,open world,Instance,whatever it will be good game.
A good game you can play with lots of people.I will take that.
I've always gotten a kick out of the argument that if something is popular and highly rated then anyone that doesn't like it must be wrong, misinformed, stupid, or otherwise broken in some way.
When I read people's hopes and dreams for SWTOR (which is about all we really have to work with ATM), its always about how they will enjoy the dialog, the characters, and the decisions they will make. I have yet to see someone get excited about the teamwork, player interaction, achievements for their guild and friends, or anything else that involves another player. I know people are assuming that will be present, but its rarely something that is motivating people's excitement.
One thing is for sure, we have seen the effects of highly instanced games with Guild Wars, HGL, DDO, CoX, and to a lesser extent CO. Not having other players freely wandering into your instances definitely makes the play experience different. I'm don't think the long term effects of this after playing for a long time are positive at all. In fact, I think its the random unpredictable player interactions that have gotten people interested in this genre.
I've always gotten a kick out of the argument that if something is popular and highly rated then anyone that doesn't like it must be wrong, misinformed, stupid, or otherwise broken in some way.
When I read people's hopes and dreams for SWTOR (which is about all we really have to work with ATM), its always about how they will enjoy the dialog, the characters, and the decisions they will make. I have yet to see someone get excited about the teamwork, player interaction, achievements for their guild and friends, or anything else that involves another player. I know people are assuming that will be present, but its rarely something that is motivating people's excitement.
One thing is for sure, we have seen the effects of highly instanced games with Guild Wars, HGL, DDO, CoX, and to a lesser extent CO. Not having other players freely wandering into your instances definitely makes the play experience different. I'm don't think the long term effects of this after playing for a long time are positive at all. In fact, I think its the random unpredictable player interactions that have gotten people interested in this genre.
Thats quite a turn from how you felt when we were both testing CO. Not that it matters.. instances are in pretty much every mainstream game... even FE with its completely open world. Just because a game utilizes some instances doesn't mean that you won't see players wandering freely around during missions. This is the kind of misinformation people keep spreading because they don't bother reading what the game features are.
Just as I said before.. anything that seems to be popular is automatically deemed as "dumbed down" for the majority in this community. At no point can a game stand on the merit that people are actually liking what they are hearing and are excited about the features, content, and gameplay. All that is irrelevant, because for a select few that dislike the game based on their OPINIONS.. if THEY don't like it.. everyone who does must be an idiot. This is what we like to call a preference... and just because yours differs at the moment with the majority of people looking into this game... it doesn't mean the game is going to be bad, be a failure, or be without confirmed features because of YOUR opinion.
How do you suppose they will make dialog have consequences without it being contained to an instance? The dialog trees didn't matter much in AoC's open zones. They quickly devolved into *click* *click* *click* then run off to do your standard MMOG quest. The speech didn't really make it a better game. In fact, for me what killed AoC was the constant load screens and the fractured world layout, the exact same thing Bioware has done with every RPG they have made. Small zones, lots of loads, divided world layout with little continuity.
It didn't bother me as much in CO or TR since the zones were big and you aren't loading quite as often. I'll still gladly take a WoW or FE style open world over that.
Go back to page 6. I said that I KNOW SWTOR will be a great success. I never claimed anything but my own preferences in this thread. I know I respond directly to comments, but I don't mean to imply anyone is an idiot, especially another grizzly old veteran like yourself MaskedWeasel!
And I am saying it will be dumbed down because I have seen this happen first hand in Bioware games over the last decade. There is no way anyone can say that DA has the depth of game mechanics that BG2 had so many years ago. Their games are now being designed for mass appeal. Its almost a rule for anything that has mass appeal that it be streamlined and intellectually de-emphasized. Of course if SWTOR comes out and has even 1/10th the complexity of something like Eve I'll gladly eat those words. No really, I'll come back to this post, print it out, and eat them... Really.
How do you suppose they will make dialog have consequences without it being contained to an instance? The dialog trees didn't matter much in AoC's open zones. They quickly devolved into *click* *click* *click* then run off to do your standard MMOG quest. The speech didn't really make it a better game. In fact, for me what killed AoC was the constant load screens and the fractured world layout, the exact same thing Bioware has done with every RPG they have made. Small zones, lots of loads, divided world layout with little continuity.
It didn't bother me as much in CO or TR since the zones were big and you aren't loading quite as often. I'll still gladly take a WoW or FE style open world over that.
Go back to page 6. I said that I KNOW SWTOR will be a great success. I never claimed anything but my own preferences in this thread. I know I respond directly to comments, but I don't mean to imply anyone is an idiot, especially another grizzly old veteran like yourself MaskedWeasel!
And I am saying it will be dumbed down because I have seen this happen first hand in Bioware games over the last decade. There is no way anyone can say that DA has the depth of game mechanics that BG2 had so many years ago. Their games are now being designed for mass appeal. Its almost a rule for anything that has mass appeal that it be streamlined and intellectually de-emphasized. Of course if SWTOR comes out and has even 1/10th the complexity of something like Eve I'll gladly eat those words. No really, I'll come back to this post, print it out, and eat them... Really.
I didn't mean to imply it was YOUR opinion directly aganazer, I meant "your" as more of a blanket for everyone who feels that way.. not you directly.. meaning only you.. I suppose that should have been more clear on my part.
As to the first part, I completely agree that they will have to instance when you pick up a quest, or turn in a quest.. and thats how they've portrayed it being in the current state of the game. The thing is, when I pick up and turn in missions in any other game, I'm not really interacting with the other players at the quest line.. I'm just picking it up, heading to the mission area, sometimes I'll start a pick up group at the mission area, but I rarely get picked up at the quest giver. I feel immersion wise, picking up a quest and turning it in can do just as well instanced as having a ton of people standing around the quest giver for any amount of time trying to decide on quest rewards, or reading whatever text the developers threw out there. I don't see it being a game killer that you are instanced to make your own choices (or have your group assist you with those choices) as long as a large part of the gameplay resides outside the instance.. which they did say would happen.
As for the complexity of eve.. its really two very different games. Complexity is also subject to interpretation... I mean you could say the crafting in Vanguard was complex, or maybe the ship building in SWG, or understanding the skill trees in FE is complex, or understanding the talent trees, or class specialties in WoW and WAR as complex. Do I think the gameplay will be complex? No. I wouldn't expect it to be any more complex then an FPS but not any less complex then WoW. Do I think the crafting will be complex? Its possible.. though it wasn't complex in KoToR. I do think there are many areas for complexities .. but I'm not sure if all areas will make it in the game. What I do know WILL be complex is the character progression.. as the storylines are always complex in a BioWare game.
I also don't agree that BioWare has dumbed down their gameplay, though its always been somewhat linear. I like the idea of going everywhere in an MMO, and so far from the videos.. it looks like we can do just that. For the most part its still too early to tell exactly what all we will be able to do in game... but so far, what I have seen is pretty exciting.. to me at least.
How do you suppose they will make dialog have consequences without it being contained to an instance? The dialog trees didn't matter much in AoC's open zones. They quickly devolved into *click* *click* *click* then run off to do your standard MMOG quest. The speech didn't really make it a better game. In fact, for me what killed AoC was the constant load screens and the fractured world layout, the exact same thing Bioware has done with every RPG they have made. Small zones, lots of loads, divided world layout with little continuity.
It didn't bother me as much in CO or TR since the zones were big and you aren't loading quite as often. I'll still gladly take a WoW or FE style open world over that.
Go back to page 6. I said that I KNOW SWTOR will be a great success. I never claimed anything but my own preferences in this thread. I know I respond directly to comments, but I don't mean to imply anyone is an idiot, especially another grizzly old veteran like yourself MaskedWeasel!
And I am saying it will be dumbed down because I have seen this happen first hand in Bioware games over the last decade. There is no way anyone can say that DA has the depth of game mechanics that BG2 had so many years ago. Their games are now being designed for mass appeal. Its almost a rule for anything that has mass appeal that it be streamlined and intellectually de-emphasized. Of course if SWTOR comes out and has even 1/10th the complexity of something like Eve I'll gladly eat those words. No really, I'll come back to this post, print it out, and eat them... Really.
I didn't mean to imply it was YOUR opinion directly aganazer, I meant "your" as more of a blanket for everyone who feels that way.. not you directly.. meaning only you.. I suppose that should have been more clear on my part.
As to the first part, I completely agree that they will have to instance when you pick up a quest, or turn in a quest.. and thats how they've portrayed it being in the current state of the game. The thing is, when I pick up and turn in missions in any other game, I'm not really interacting with the other players at the quest line.. I'm just picking it up, heading to the mission area, sometimes I'll start a pick up group at the mission area, but I rarely get picked up at the quest giver. I feel immersion wise, picking up a quest and turning it in can do just as well instanced as having a ton of people standing around the quest giver for any amount of time trying to decide on quest rewards, or reading whatever text the developers threw out there. I don't see it being a game killer that you are instanced to make your own choices (or have your group assist you with those choices) as long as a large part of the gameplay resides outside the instance.. which they did say would happen.
As for the complexity of eve.. its really two very different games. Complexity is also subject to interpretation... I mean you could say the crafting in Vanguard was complex, or maybe the ship building in SWG, or understanding the skill trees in FE is complex, or understanding the talent trees, or class specialties in WoW and WAR as complex. Do I think the gameplay will be complex? No. I wouldn't expect it to be any more complex then an FPS but not any less complex then WoW. Do I think the crafting will be complex? Its possible.. though it wasn't complex in KoToR. I do think there are many areas for complexities .. but I'm not sure if all areas will make it in the game. What I do know WILL be complex is the character progression.. as the storylines are always complex in a BioWare game.
I also don't agree that BioWare has dumbed down their gameplay, though its always been somewhat linear. I like the idea of going everywhere in an MMO, and so far from the videos.. it looks like we can do just that. For the most part its still too early to tell exactly what all we will be able to do in game... but so far, what I have seen is pretty exciting.. to me at least.
Whether instancing works or not depends on how they design the rest of the game. They worked pretty well in City of Heroes, for example, simply because you could do a lot of things with an instance apart from treating it like a simple quest: you could modify the difficulty, for example, and the game would modify it on its own depending on how many players were entering it. This let you solo a lot of the content and at the same time promoted group play, which, in my experience, has been the best group play I've had in an MMO (and I've played team-oriented games like DAoC). That way you could control the pacing and the intensity of play, which is always a bonus. In the end, it depends on stuff we really can't comment yet for SWTOR.
As for Bioware having dumbed down their gameplay, yes they have, man. A lot. It's not entirely a matter of opinion; you can go ahead and play Baldur's Gate or even Icewind Dale and their combat systems are quite a lot deeper than what Dragon Age or even KOTOR offer. The fact that those games could be played multiplayer without disrupting the story is a starting indicator of how much Bioware have sacrificed in gameplay to the gods of Story Mode. Anyone remember being a wizard in those games? Every new one was different simply because you had to learn the bloody scrolls you found scattered around the world, and it was really fucking exciting when you had this BIG spell in a scroll you could learn, but could possibly fail to do so and lose the damn thing.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I mean, I completely loved Dragon Age despite its limitations, and I remember those old RPGs with a lot of nostalgia. We'll see how SWTOR fares.
While I agree with you for the most part, there are plenty of players who don't feel compelled to spend alot fo money just to compete/keep up with those who do. There are alot of palyers who are perfectly happy being scrubs.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
How do you suppose they will make dialog have consequences without it being contained to an instance? The dialog trees didn't matter much in AoC's open zones. They quickly devolved into *click* *click* *click* then run off to do your standard MMOG quest. The speech didn't really make it a better game. In fact, for me what killed AoC was the constant load screens and the fractured world layout, the exact same thing Bioware has done with every RPG they have made. Small zones, lots of loads, divided world layout with little continuity.
It didn't bother me as much in CO or TR since the zones were big and you aren't loading quite as often. I'll still gladly take a WoW or FE style open world over that.
Go back to page 6. I said that I KNOW SWTOR will be a great success. I never claimed anything but my own preferences in this thread. I know I respond directly to comments, but I don't mean to imply anyone is an idiot, especially another grizzly old veteran like yourself MaskedWeasel!
And I am saying it will be dumbed down because I have seen this happen first hand in Bioware games over the last decade. There is no way anyone can say that DA has the depth of game mechanics that BG2 had so many years ago. Their games are now being designed for mass appeal. Its almost a rule for anything that has mass appeal that it be streamlined and intellectually de-emphasized. Of course if SWTOR comes out and has even 1/10th the complexity of something like Eve I'll gladly eat those words. No really, I'll come back to this post, print it out, and eat them... Really.
I didn't mean to imply it was YOUR opinion directly aganazer, I meant "your" as more of a blanket for everyone who feels that way.. not you directly.. meaning only you.. I suppose that should have been more clear on my part.
As to the first part, I completely agree that they will have to instance when you pick up a quest, or turn in a quest.. and thats how they've portrayed it being in the current state of the game. The thing is, when I pick up and turn in missions in any other game, I'm not really interacting with the other players at the quest line.. I'm just picking it up, heading to the mission area, sometimes I'll start a pick up group at the mission area, but I rarely get picked up at the quest giver. I feel immersion wise, picking up a quest and turning it in can do just as well instanced as having a ton of people standing around the quest giver for any amount of time trying to decide on quest rewards, or reading whatever text the developers threw out there. I don't see it being a game killer that you are instanced to make your own choices (or have your group assist you with those choices) as long as a large part of the gameplay resides outside the instance.. which they did say would happen.
As for the complexity of eve.. its really two very different games. Complexity is also subject to interpretation... I mean you could say the crafting in Vanguard was complex, or maybe the ship building in SWG, or understanding the skill trees in FE is complex, or understanding the talent trees, or class specialties in WoW and WAR as complex. Do I think the gameplay will be complex? No. I wouldn't expect it to be any more complex then an FPS but not any less complex then WoW. Do I think the crafting will be complex? Its possible.. though it wasn't complex in KoToR. I do think there are many areas for complexities .. but I'm not sure if all areas will make it in the game. What I do know WILL be complex is the character progression.. as the storylines are always complex in a BioWare game.
I also don't agree that BioWare has dumbed down their gameplay, though its always been somewhat linear. I like the idea of going everywhere in an MMO, and so far from the videos.. it looks like we can do just that. For the most part its still too early to tell exactly what all we will be able to do in game... but so far, what I have seen is pretty exciting.. to me at least.
As for Bioware having dumbed down their gameplay, yes they have, man. A lot. It's not entirely a matter of opinion; you can go ahead and play Baldur's Gate or even Icewind Dale and their combat systems are quite a lot deeper than what Dragon Age or even KOTOR offer. The fact that those games could be played multiplayer without disrupting the story is a starting indicator of how much Bioware have sacrificed in gameplay to the gods of Story Mode. Anyone remember being a wizard in those games? Every new one was different simply because you had to learn the bloody scrolls you found scattered around the world, and it was really fucking exciting when you had this BIG spell in a scroll you could learn, but could possibly fail to do so and lose the damn thing.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I mean, I completely loved Dragon Age despite its limitations, and I remember those old RPGs with a lot of nostalgia. We'll see how SWTOR fares.
I agree that those games and even NwN 1 and 2 had a lot of deep gameplay. Those are completely different games though. Whos to say that if there was a Baldurs Gate 3 that they wouldn't have the same gameplay? In the sense of KoToR I feel they made the best choice for the game they were creating. Biowares created some great games, but it doesn't mean they should only create one style of play. I liked Baldurs gate, and I liked NwN2 ... but they've also developed the sonic chronicles, jade empire, and kotor.
I don't think that they can't or won't be able to develop games like they have previously, but its obvious we won't see it from the recent titles they've launched. They did mention in the interview today that they had a number of reveals for E3 and they have a lot of other unanounced titles in the works.. so as far as we know, something with that kind of gameplay could be in the works. It just won't be ToR.
Baldur's Gate and co were great games in their time. I just recently tried to replay Baldur's Gate 2, but it is really hard to like the clunky UI that the game has. Memories from the game are actually better than the reality of it. Nostalgia is a bitch.
The D&D ruleset was one of the reasons why games from that period were so "complicated". It helped that many fans were familiar with the ruleset already. In NW1, I remember having complex spreadsheets to plan my "optimal" character. Also, turn-based combat, like in BG2 and Fallout 1&2 was also the trademark of the period that did require more tactical thinking, but also put off many people looking for more action orientated games.
The fact is that it would be pretty hard to design games like that today. Most RPGs are designed for multiplatforms. It would also be hard to get the mainstream gamers to like them. They were pretty unforgiving (attributes, dual and multiclassing, skills etc....one mistake and you could have frakked up your character for the next 5 levels) and thus not suitable for those looking for instant gratification at all. A lot of the streamlining and simplifying is actually done good for the genre. More people are likely to pickup RPGs. This is a good thing.
Because RPGs like Mass Effect and Kotor have hit the sweetspot in the gamer market, another thing that has happened. Production values and budgets have gone way up. However, as seen in Mass Effect 2, it will be nearly impossible for a small studio to match that quality of production, which is a negative side.
Overall, I enjoy RPGs as much today, as I did back in the day. The genre will go through different metamorphoses periodically and I would not expect anything else.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
There's nothing wrong with a MMO with a little Story involved, it gives you a break from the "kill 1000 of this to gain 1 level" feeling.
Story driven MMO's are extremely rare, and I am looking forward to what SWTOR has to offer. Let's just hope they don't get too money hungry and abandon player morals for cold hard cash.
How do you suppose they will make dialog have consequences without it being contained to an instance? The dialog trees didn't matter much in AoC's open zones. They quickly devolved into *click* *click* *click* then run off to do your standard MMOG quest. The speech didn't really make it a better game. In fact, for me what killed AoC was the constant load screens and the fractured world layout, the exact same thing Bioware has done with every RPG they have made. Small zones, lots of loads, divided world layout with little continuity.
It didn't bother me as much in CO or TR since the zones were big and you aren't loading quite as often. I'll still gladly take a WoW or FE style open world over that.
Go back to page 6. I said that I KNOW SWTOR will be a great success. I never claimed anything but my own preferences in this thread. I know I respond directly to comments, but I don't mean to imply anyone is an idiot, especially another grizzly old veteran like yourself MaskedWeasel!
And I am saying it will be dumbed down because I have seen this happen first hand in Bioware games over the last decade. There is no way anyone can say that DA has the depth of game mechanics that BG2 had so many years ago. Their games are now being designed for mass appeal. Its almost a rule for anything that has mass appeal that it be streamlined and intellectually de-emphasized. Of course if SWTOR comes out and has even 1/10th the complexity of something like Eve I'll gladly eat those words. No really, I'll come back to this post, print it out, and eat them... Really.
I didn't mean to imply it was YOUR opinion directly aganazer, I meant "your" as more of a blanket for everyone who feels that way.. not you directly.. meaning only you.. I suppose that should have been more clear on my part.
As to the first part, I completely agree that they will have to instance when you pick up a quest, or turn in a quest.. and thats how they've portrayed it being in the current state of the game. The thing is, when I pick up and turn in missions in any other game, I'm not really interacting with the other players at the quest line.. I'm just picking it up, heading to the mission area, sometimes I'll start a pick up group at the mission area, but I rarely get picked up at the quest giver. I feel immersion wise, picking up a quest and turning it in can do just as well instanced as having a ton of people standing around the quest giver for any amount of time trying to decide on quest rewards, or reading whatever text the developers threw out there. I don't see it being a game killer that you are instanced to make your own choices (or have your group assist you with those choices) as long as a large part of the gameplay resides outside the instance.. which they did say would happen.
As for the complexity of eve.. its really two very different games. Complexity is also subject to interpretation... I mean you could say the crafting in Vanguard was complex, or maybe the ship building in SWG, or understanding the skill trees in FE is complex, or understanding the talent trees, or class specialties in WoW and WAR as complex. Do I think the gameplay will be complex? No. I wouldn't expect it to be any more complex then an FPS but not any less complex then WoW. Do I think the crafting will be complex? Its possible.. though it wasn't complex in KoToR. I do think there are many areas for complexities .. but I'm not sure if all areas will make it in the game. What I do know WILL be complex is the character progression.. as the storylines are always complex in a BioWare game.
I also don't agree that BioWare has dumbed down their gameplay, though its always been somewhat linear. I like the idea of going everywhere in an MMO, and so far from the videos.. it looks like we can do just that. For the most part its still too early to tell exactly what all we will be able to do in game... but so far, what I have seen is pretty exciting.. to me at least.
As for Bioware having dumbed down their gameplay, yes they have, man. A lot. It's not entirely a matter of opinion; you can go ahead and play Baldur's Gate or even Icewind Dale and their combat systems are quite a lot deeper than what Dragon Age or even KOTOR offer. The fact that those games could be played multiplayer without disrupting the story is a starting indicator of how much Bioware have sacrificed in gameplay to the gods of Story Mode. Anyone remember being a wizard in those games? Every new one was different simply because you had to learn the bloody scrolls you found scattered around the world, and it was really fucking exciting when you had this BIG spell in a scroll you could learn, but could possibly fail to do so and lose the damn thing.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I mean, I completely loved Dragon Age despite its limitations, and I remember those old RPGs with a lot of nostalgia. We'll see how SWTOR fares.
I agree that those games and even NwN 1 and 2 had a lot of deep gameplay. Those are completely different games though. Whos to say that if there was a Baldurs Gate 3 that they wouldn't have the same gameplay? In the sense of KoToR I feel they made the best choice for the game they were creating. Biowares created some great games, but it doesn't mean they should only create one style of play. I liked Baldurs gate, and I liked NwN2 ... but they've also developed the sonic chronicles, jade empire, and kotor.
I don't think that they can't or won't be able to develop games like they have previously, but its obvious we won't see it from the recent titles they've launched. They did mention in the interview today that they had a number of reveals for E3 and they have a lot of other unanounced titles in the works.. so as far as we know, something with that kind of gameplay could be in the works. It just won't be ToR.
What does NwN 2 have to do with anything? That isn't a Bioware game.
How do you suppose they will make dialog have consequences without it being contained to an instance? The dialog trees didn't matter much in AoC's open zones. They quickly devolved into *click* *click* *click* then run off to do your standard MMOG quest. The speech didn't really make it a better game. In fact, for me what killed AoC was the constant load screens and the fractured world layout, the exact same thing Bioware has done with every RPG they have made. Small zones, lots of loads, divided world layout with little continuity.
It didn't bother me as much in CO or TR since the zones were big and you aren't loading quite as often. I'll still gladly take a WoW or FE style open world over that.
Go back to page 6. I said that I KNOW SWTOR will be a great success. I never claimed anything but my own preferences in this thread. I know I respond directly to comments, but I don't mean to imply anyone is an idiot, especially another grizzly old veteran like yourself MaskedWeasel!
And I am saying it will be dumbed down because I have seen this happen first hand in Bioware games over the last decade. There is no way anyone can say that DA has the depth of game mechanics that BG2 had so many years ago. Their games are now being designed for mass appeal. Its almost a rule for anything that has mass appeal that it be streamlined and intellectually de-emphasized. Of course if SWTOR comes out and has even 1/10th the complexity of something like Eve I'll gladly eat those words. No really, I'll come back to this post, print it out, and eat them... Really.
I didn't mean to imply it was YOUR opinion directly aganazer, I meant "your" as more of a blanket for everyone who feels that way.. not you directly.. meaning only you.. I suppose that should have been more clear on my part.
As to the first part, I completely agree that they will have to instance when you pick up a quest, or turn in a quest.. and thats how they've portrayed it being in the current state of the game. The thing is, when I pick up and turn in missions in any other game, I'm not really interacting with the other players at the quest line.. I'm just picking it up, heading to the mission area, sometimes I'll start a pick up group at the mission area, but I rarely get picked up at the quest giver. I feel immersion wise, picking up a quest and turning it in can do just as well instanced as having a ton of people standing around the quest giver for any amount of time trying to decide on quest rewards, or reading whatever text the developers threw out there. I don't see it being a game killer that you are instanced to make your own choices (or have your group assist you with those choices) as long as a large part of the gameplay resides outside the instance.. which they did say would happen.
As for the complexity of eve.. its really two very different games. Complexity is also subject to interpretation... I mean you could say the crafting in Vanguard was complex, or maybe the ship building in SWG, or understanding the skill trees in FE is complex, or understanding the talent trees, or class specialties in WoW and WAR as complex. Do I think the gameplay will be complex? No. I wouldn't expect it to be any more complex then an FPS but not any less complex then WoW. Do I think the crafting will be complex? Its possible.. though it wasn't complex in KoToR. I do think there are many areas for complexities .. but I'm not sure if all areas will make it in the game. What I do know WILL be complex is the character progression.. as the storylines are always complex in a BioWare game.
I also don't agree that BioWare has dumbed down their gameplay, though its always been somewhat linear. I like the idea of going everywhere in an MMO, and so far from the videos.. it looks like we can do just that. For the most part its still too early to tell exactly what all we will be able to do in game... but so far, what I have seen is pretty exciting.. to me at least.
As for Bioware having dumbed down their gameplay, yes they have, man. A lot. It's not entirely a matter of opinion; you can go ahead and play Baldur's Gate or even Icewind Dale and their combat systems are quite a lot deeper than what Dragon Age or even KOTOR offer. The fact that those games could be played multiplayer without disrupting the story is a starting indicator of how much Bioware have sacrificed in gameplay to the gods of Story Mode. Anyone remember being a wizard in those games? Every new one was different simply because you had to learn the bloody scrolls you found scattered around the world, and it was really fucking exciting when you had this BIG spell in a scroll you could learn, but could possibly fail to do so and lose the damn thing.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I mean, I completely loved Dragon Age despite its limitations, and I remember those old RPGs with a lot of nostalgia. We'll see how SWTOR fares.
I agree that those games and even NwN 1 and 2 had a lot of deep gameplay. Those are completely different games though. Whos to say that if there was a Baldurs Gate 3 that they wouldn't have the same gameplay? In the sense of KoToR I feel they made the best choice for the game they were creating. Biowares created some great games, but it doesn't mean they should only create one style of play. I liked Baldurs gate, and I liked NwN2 ... but they've also developed the sonic chronicles, jade empire, and kotor.
I don't think that they can't or won't be able to develop games like they have previously, but its obvious we won't see it from the recent titles they've launched. They did mention in the interview today that they had a number of reveals for E3 and they have a lot of other unanounced titles in the works.. so as far as we know, something with that kind of gameplay could be in the works. It just won't be ToR.
What does NwN 2 have to do with anything? That isn't a Bioware game.
You are right, but it was built on Biowares game engine, and NWN 1 was created by bioware.
I agree on DA its very casual and it seems to much attention on npc voices and story telling then actual gameplay.
Many times bad pathfinding by partymembers or mobs.
Flemeth as dragon is way more chellenging then archdemon end boss.
Nightmare is easy.
Biowares mmo will be very casual like wow with alot of fluff no substance that will be much of chellenge im affraid.
They have seen blizzard how they did it so they come with sci fi mmo with starwars IP and make it similar as wow very casual and prolly every pc can run it like WoW and succes guarenteed is my prediction.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but I don't want to shift through 10 pages of posts:
EA produced games metacritic scores:
Dragon Age: PC - 91, PS3 - 87, Xbox 360 - 86
Mass Effect 2: PC - 95, Xbox 360 - 96
Sonic Chronicles The Dark Brotherhood: DS - 74
No major involvement from EA (for the ones that have metacritic scores):
Baldur's Gate: PC - 91
Neverwinter Nights: PC - 91
KOTOR: PC - 93, Xbox - 94
Jade Empire: PC - 81, Xbox - 89
Mass Effect: PC - 89, Xbox 360 - 91
Note that older games without too much critical acclaim or popularity don't get listed on metacritic typically. In this case I couldn't get a score for Bioware's first game Shattered Steel and MDK2.
What's all this data tell you? That Bioware is still making games that the critics like (with the exception of maybe Sonic Chronicles, though it still got an okay score, it was also Bioware's first attempt at a handheld game) which probably means most gamers still enjoy them too. I think the OP is just be pretty nit-picky. There were terrible classes in old Bioware games too (try making a class in KOTOR that doesn't focus on combat mainly for instance and remember that Jedis are overpowered and should be your only party members, the rest are useless) so I don't get why this rant would be specific to newer Bioware games.
BioWare just make good games in general. They've yet to make a game I didn't consider at least "good", although I can understand non-RPG lovers not being too interested in what they do. The main thing I worry about is they're EA-owned. But I'll let their game speak for itself when it comes out 2011/2012 (hopefully).