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General: Webb: That's What She Said
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
MMORPG.com columnist Justin Webb writes this week's article on difficulty in games, looking back at a past where games were just... harder.
This week I have mostly been playing Demon’s Souls. In addition to its mischievously placed apostrophe, it’s also astonishingly hard.
Its learning curve is more like a learning crevasse, where every mistake is rewarded by being flung flailing into the abyss. Some of the design decisions in the first level are astonishing:
- You can’t exit the level without beating it.
- Every time you die, you must start the level again… and all the monsters respawn.
- Many monsters can kill you in one hit if they get the drop on you.
- Every time you die, you drop all your souls – the game’s xp and currency. If you die again without picking up those souls, they are gone for good.
- You start out in human form. If you die, you turn into a spirit with reduced stats and half as many hit points. To resurrect, you must finish the level.
- It can take a good 15 minutes to fight your way back to your dropped souls.
- There is a “go left/go right” decision halfway through the first level, where going right takes you to a monster that is unkillable.
- After finishing the first level, to be able to level up, you must talk to an NPC who is hidden so well that you will want to tear your face off.
- It has a PvP mode where other players can “break into” your game and hunt you down and kill you.
Read That's What She Said.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
Easy mmos or hard mmos? We can just have both, and thankfully, we do. From EVE to WoW, winking an eye at darkfall. The more easy most mmos get, the more pissed off some indie developer is gonna get and make some stupid hard mmo.
*raises glass to darwin*
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Wow. From what I've read of your description of the game, you are a masochist. To each his own, but there's no chance I'd set a virtual foot in that game ever. For me to enjoy a game, all my characters have to slowly, steadily, make progress or improve in some way. They may hit walls, but that progress should never be backwards. But, whatever floats your boat.
BTW, I looked this up for you:
One kind of contest popular in the African-American community in the 19th century was the "cakewalk," in which couples competed strolling arm in arm, with the prize, a cake, being awarded to the most graceful and stylish team.
Since "cakewalking" demanded both skill and grace, victory in the contest was rarely a "cakewalk" in our modern "easy" sense. That modern use of "cakewalk" in the came from the boxing ring, where a very easy victory over an outclassed opponent was likened to a refined "cakewalk" compared to the ordinarily prolonged and brutal nature of the matches. By 1877, "cakewalk" had graduated from the boxing ring and acquired its general meaning of "an effortless victory."
Nowadays, if it is too hard in a MMO then it's because it's a F2P game, and it certainly features item shop stuff to reduce that difficulty.
Or it is the end of the end-game in a P2P theme-park game, the last 1% of content.
Sandboxes are kind of different as there is no ultimate end-game and the challenge rather comes in the form of different things to do and dangers, it's not about combat but about taking a role in this virtual world.
Maybe that's the following mentalities were developed, they are of course, my opinion:
1- In the F2P game, the player will try to go as far as he can without spending a single cent, enduring the insane grinding or getting owned in PvP, losing his gear in upgrading systems and lacking the delicious xp/attribute modifiers. It's his way of recreating the challenge, and he still finds the game fun... but that's subjective and pointless, the guy next to you spent money, and guess what, he's far superior to you and playing half of the time you play.
2- In the P2P game, the player will rush through content to reach this legendary hard end-game, not reading quests, simply doing what the quest helper says, skipping content if possible, etc. He just wants to get to the point the game gets hard, and damn he will be so disappointed and angry if he finds more grind instead of a challenge at the end of the tunnel. It's called grind because it's so easy it is just a matter of time. Oh, and if the rewards are not worth the insane challenge, you also got an angry player. You can't expect to make an insanely challenging end-game and throw ridiculous rewards in.
I have to admit, when I first played Demon's Souls, I eventually went into a nerdrage and put the game down. I had forgotten what it was like to play a truly hard game. After a while, I picked it back up with the mentality of "I know I'm going to die" and got over that hump. After a few hours of immersion and toil, I realized I loved the game.
After playing WoW for now 5+ years, I didn't expect any game to challenge me like Demon's Souls did. I'm glad for the experience, and it gets me wondering on how to translate "difficulty" into an MMO without equating it to group size. So, instead, why don't we have content driven toward the 2-3 person group range? A skilled player could take on the content, sure, but with great difficulty (and bragging rights). I think having one or two friends would give leeway for small team-oriented puzzle solving or unique boss encounters without the need to get 10 or 25 people together.
Demon's Souls is one of the best games ever made. I would love if they made an MMO based off of it.
It is true EQ was very demanding and after a certain level depending on class you had to have a group and that was not always easy as it was a certain make up of classes to do things. Healers, tank , enchanter, first left little room for much else. Then cc changes made the enchanter less needed. After five years of play and then trying WoW was not hard to change games.
In the beginning some encounters for Wow required a group and of course as with all games being in a guild and raiding to obtain the better gear. Now even the casual player can get good gear without being in a guild. LFG has made it possible not to struggle finding groups, making it possible to get the badges needed to get the gear.
Yes it is easy now compared to the beginning. Hopefully they won't make it so easy that players that like a bit of challenge will loose interest. We shall see.
Gikku
I was thinking it is a matter of audience (age), but then again I remember myself at the age of 14-15 when I was literarly living in front of a monitor playing UO(pre trammel), which was in fact an unforgiving game at that time.
Also most of the sega and NES games were hard as hell... and I loved every and each one of them.
I played WoW out of lore sake when it came out (I loved the storyline of WC3), but the game overall is too easy.
You mentioned STO, which I played for 2 days just to get my cruiser class ship and make sure the game will be like this till end game(if there is one). All I have to say about STO is it is easy to an extent of retardation.
Then I thought "It must be the player type, ie hardcore/softcore". But I was wrong again, since I'm playing darkfall, playing very casualy and still enjoying it because it is HARD.
Bottom line is I guess its just what kind of person you are...
The only games I really liked, were the ones which put me up to a challenge: UO, EVE, DF and hopefully Earthrise soon
This is interesting. What I have found after playing games all these years and talking to different people and their take on gaming. Some people crave challenge in games more than anything else. Others crave tasklists. While others crave doing a little bit of everything, or exploring, or just plain PVP madness.
My point is, that while WoW may be easy to all you who look for a challenge, as is evident if you truly like to play a game like Demon's Souls, but for others it isn't as easy as you make it sound.
I fall into the little bit of everything/explorer example and I had tough times at points in WoW and most games. I overcame most of them but not all. But guess what? I could care less about "beating" those things as for me gaming is about the other stuff.
I won't EVER play a game like Demon's Souls because my idea of fun is nowhere to found in that game.
So, I hope, that everyone who writes an article like yours, at least takes into consideration everyone's different playstyles. Oh, and stop bashing WoW because YOU think it is too easy. If anything, bash WoW for not growing the game horizontally and adding depth.
Good article.
I believe you mentioned somewhere on the Darkfall forums that you might be considering trying that. We have a very similiar lineage. I started in MUD's as well, then went to UO, DAoC, and then WoW. We like a challange, even if it means pulling your hair out on occasion (Which is fine.. gonna be bald one day anyway.. THANKS DAD!).
Darkfall really is one of those experiences. You die. A lot. You get ganked and beaten for no reason. A lot.
But the hidden secret behind all the constant death, losing everything, and smack-talking idiots that are the most vocal minority in any MMO community (And make no mistake, they ARE the minority - Plenty of good people, even if they are also killing you since that's one of the fun activities in the game) is that with every step you take towards your goal, every time you work your way through some seemingly unpleasant challenge or mechanic, there is sense of accomplishment in everything you do that you just don't get when you face a game that's "Easy".
For those who don't understand this and play WoW (Playing the odds, here), put it this way: Do you think you would feel a greater sense of accomplishment when you beat Van Clef, or when you beat Arthas? Now think about why that is.
For the last year or so that Darkfall has actually been available, I've let my opinion of that community dissuade me from trying a game that seemed to have everything I love about MMO's. Now I understand that the game has improved a lot since it was released, so from that perspective, it might be a good thing that I'm only just joining.
But I'm playing, I'm solo, and it's a challange around every corner that I'm enjoying thoroughly. I hope you give it a shot.
elocke: I don't think I bashed WoW at all in that article. In fact, I think I was probably a bit harsh on EQ (1 and 2). I have a lot of respect for the decisions Blizzard made during development of WoW. The point I did want to make is that WoW is definitely "easier" than most of its precedents ... and that it being easier is part of a slow 20-year trend.
However, the main reason I wanted to reply to your comment is that your animated banner is awesome. Thumbs up!
I know i'm going to get fillet for this but....
Star Trek Online is pretty hard, i mean the first 10 levels have you flying around in a dinky, crappy Miranda class and then you have to BUY a better ship AND do a quest to get something decent...better hope you didn't spend your 'gold' on upgrades early...
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1321-Demons-Souls
EPIC
Demons Souls was an amazing game, and a good reminder of why challenging games are needed in all genres. The greater the challenge, that greater the satisfaction from completing them.
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I have to admit that I was pleasantly surprised when, in Dragon Age, I was picked up by a large troll creature and pounded within seconds.
At first I hated that there was an "I win" button for the AI but after playing the game and learning more about it I found out how I could mitigate that sort of thing.
I suppose for me I prefer things harder (the "old" old forest in LOTRO for example) but I also tend to prefer the chance to at least overcome or recognize the danger by quickly looking at the scenario before me.
Demons's Souls might be a tad to annoying for my preference but it would be nice if mmo's had more danger. Like in Lineage 2 where, in the starter dark elf area, there was a quest mob that was a monster tree that required a full party to even have the chance to take down. This thing had a wide aggro range. Same in the seap of spores where Orfen would chase you right up to the gates so she could stomp you.
Some of the most fun I've ever had was making sure I knew where orfen was so I didn't get stomped. Since then, NC has made those areas easier, less fog in the swamp where the tree is and now I don't even think it aggros anymore. Oren doens't travel around as much and won't chase you to the gates.
THIS is where the devs have gone wrong.
We do need more challenge. However, for some that challenge will require a stiff death penalty and for others that death penalty will have to be a bit less.
Still, it needs to be said that games like Demons's souls need to be made as clearly there are people who enjoy them.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
While that sounds right...it's not true for everyone. To be entirely honest....I don't always feel like playing a game that requires WORK when I've worked all day. Sometimes I just want to chill. Now that may mean playing casual games, or...it may mean I want the "escape factor" of an RPG style game (MMO or single player). It really depends on the mood I'm in. And that's why I love that games come in a wide array of "flavors." "Beating" an extremely challenging game, for me, isn't always that satisfying. As a matter of fact, I've come away from doing that more than a few times, just feeling relieved that it's OVER.
I do however agree with you that we need to have challenging games in all genres, but we need varying degrees OF challenge. Personally, I think this is best accomplished by having difficulty settings (in single player games). Dragon Age: Origins is a great example of that, I think. If you want, what would feel to me like absolute masochism, you can set the game on nightmare mode and have at it. On the other hand, if you really just want to experience the story, without having to pull every hair out of your head, there's a normal mode, or even easy, for those that prefer it.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
That might work but what about the unskilled solo player? They would not be able to solo the content and then you'd be back to the same resolution... nurfing the content for "accessability". Would it not make more sense to build tougher zones that allow for an alternative route to end-game? These could be added over time, they would not have to be introduced at launch, although, a couple at launch would allow the dev team to determine the appetite of their audence for harder content let them determine what development resources to aside for new content.
This approach would allow for people looking for harder content to be sated while still allowing more casual gamers to by-pass it if they don't have the skill or time to complete it. Bonuses for completion could range from XP bonuses (either like "resting" bonuses or a lump sum completion bonus) to gear valuable specifically for leveling but would becomes redundant at end-game.
Just a thought....
-=[ Gaidin ]=-
Sovrath, I always respect your posts. That said, I must disagree with what you've stated here, at least to a degree.
Please do not include me in your "we". I, for one, do not think games are too easy. In fact, I'm confused by people's definition of easy (or hard). Let me explain: I've seen people post in forums about how it took them 10 or 20 tries to down a particular end-boss, but eventually they figured out how to do it. And now, they call that easy. For me, easy means NEVER dying. I mean never, ever.
I often liken my games to the literature I read. In those books, it is very rare that the hero dies, at least not until the very end. That is the game I want to play. And I don't mean hardcore permadeath modes where you have to be cautious to the extreme. But rather a game where I feel like a powerful hero all the time. Where mere minions, even in groups of two or three, do not provide the tiniest hint of a threat. I am a hero! End bosses would be roughly equal to my skill and no more.
I hate dying in games. HAAAATE it. It's not the penalty, or the pointlessly annoying walk back to my corpse. I am the hero of the story! I shouldn't die, at least, not unless it's in some spectacularly selfless act of heroism.
I'm being a bit extreme here but I think you get my point. I often scratch my head at how other players seem to actually enjoy defeat.
Now, this is not to say I feel all games should be like I described, not at all. There does need to be games for all types of players, but I can't agree with "This is where devs have gone wrong" beyond that.
BTW, I enjoyed Dragon Age. So much so that I played it through completely three times. But after the first run I set it to easy. Partially for reasons I stated above, and partly because after a while, I found the harder setting to be more of a slog. After the first death, succeeding deaths are meaningless. It just means a restart from last save and try again. And again. And as many times as you need until you get past that fight to the next. I would prefer to see far fewer fights but have more of them mean something.
I think im one of the few who dislikes Dragon Age. I disliked how the story was flat, how combat was dull (Including killsyncs do not make it epic) and how OP the mage class was. Take a look at Baldurs Gate II, an old game with epic combat. It was also not full blown cheese fantasy like Dragon Age. The romance scenes were so cringe worthy in Dragon Age I almost quit the game there and then.
Ofc the game had its merits, great back history and musical score.
But back to the topic! Current games, excluding Demons Souls, have become 'hold the gamers hand' and 'kiss the poor sore spot if hurt' kinda gaming. But look at the defenition of hard gaming. To increase the difficulty to epic does not make the game 'hard' but gives the computer an unfair advantage. Hard for me is skill based, platforming, tactics, timing on certain events. Its down to YOU to pass the area, kill the boss, jump that timed jump. And if you fail, YOU DIE! You re-step to the check point which is FAR back.
Death is now a joke for games. Spirit walk to your corpse :O Such a harsh life. I wish games would take EVEs approach to death.
Designing games with mechanics that drive away players is easy.
Designing games with mechanics that attract players and keep them playing is hard. Look at the number of failed games vs. successes in any genre.
MMORPG developers are not taking the easy way out making their games more accessible. They are taking the more difficult route developing approchable systems that take far more thought, testing and work. Punishing game mechanics are simply lazy excuses that MMORPG developers have used the same way comedy shows throw in fart jokes rather actually thinking up something clever.
That's not to say there isn't an audience for fart jokes. But the MMORPG genre is not going to evolve and do anything worthwhile and innovative if it gets sidetracked looking back at 'the good old days'.
Oh I respect that. When I say "we" it's just a coloquialism aimed more toward players who are on the side of desiring harder games and not so much as "everyone/we".
I can easily see your point and even agree. Heck, in Dragon Age I would sometimes put the game on easy because harder modes just halted the flow of everything. Sometimes it's the story that matters more than whether or not you get through the encounter.
I suppose a better way to illustrate what I want to say is that recently in Vanguard I went down into a spider den. Unlike wow or lotro I realized that I could very well die if I wasn't careful. Oh sure, one can die in wow and lotro but I have found that I die way less. If I made one wrong pull or went a bit too far then there was going to be a consequence that I might not be able to escape from. I found this thrilling to a point.
Now, this is not to say that I want to die nor do I require hard death penalties. For me the failure of dying resonates far more than any death penalty can.
But I found that there was a bit more investment on my part.
But I'm also a huge believer in the idea (and fact) that not everyone is built the same way. Some love that heart pumping, adrenaline rush and require it. Me? Not so much. That's actually something I don't find desirable. But I do like to feel that I'm in a dangerous area and that I need to be in the moment or else there will be consequences.
Personally I don't think ALL games should be hard. And I support to a certain degree that games allow part time players or casual players a chance to play without being hard core.
I would just like to see a game for me that had a theme I could identify with and that made me a bit more cautious.
To end, I just used Dragon Age because it was one of the first solo player games I've played in a long time and I had forgotten what it was like to fail and have to reload in order to succeed in a spot. Not to advertise it or set it up as a poster boy for a hard game. I include this because I don't want forum goers to think I'm advertising this game. One could very well just insert another game of their choice that they found challenging.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I've heard about DS... No way in hell am I going to waste my time(and spike my blood pressure) with such a sadistic game. I'm in this hobby for entertainment and relaxation. There is a difference between a challenging game, and one that is more the Dev's playing sadistic head games with the player. From the sounds of it, its much like a game called The Void. Which is also one sadistic head game after another.
Sovrath, I always respect your posts. That said, I must disagree with what you've stated here, at least to a degree.
Please do not include me in your "we". I, for one, do not think games are too easy. In fact, I'm confused by people's definition of easy (or hard). Let me explain: I've seen people post in forums about how it took them 10 or 20 tries to down a particular end-boss, but eventually they figured out how to do it. And now, they call that easy. For me, easy means NEVER dying. I mean never, ever.
I often liken my games to the literature I read. In those books, it is very rare that the hero dies, at least not until the very end. That is the game I want to play. And I don't mean hardcore permadeath modes where you have to be cautious to the extreme. But rather a game where I feel like a powerful hero all the time. Where mere minions, even in groups of two or three, do not provide the tiniest hint of a threat. I am a hero! End bosses would be roughly equal to my skill and no more.
I hate dying in games. HAAAATE it. It's not the penalty, or the pointlessly annoying walk back to my corpse. I am the hero of the story! I shouldn't die, at least, not unless it's in some spectacularly selfless act of heroism.
I'm being a bit extreme here but I think you get my point. I often scratch my head at how other players seem to actually enjoy defeat.
Now, this is not to say I feel all games should be like I described, not at all. There does need to be games for all types of players, but I can't agree with "This is where devs have gone wrong" beyond that.
BTW, I enjoyed Dragon Age. So much so that I played it through completely three times. But after the first run I set it to easy. Partially for reasons I stated above, and partly because after a while, I found the harder setting to be more of a slog. After the first death, succeeding deaths are meaningless. It just means a restart from last save and try again. And again. And as many times as you need until you get past that fight to the next. I would prefer to see far fewer fights but have more of them mean something.
I think that the heroes in those books arn't heroes because the enemies are weak,but because they are good at what they do. Now,superheroes are different. Anyways, I think that some games should stick to this,like Demon Souls(Though,havn't played it,but have read up on it. Can't wait to try) if your not good enough to be the hero,then you won't feel like the hero. At least,thats how I see it.
I just want to mention Civilization 4 as perfect example where hard difficulty doesnt stop players from taking the challenge again and again. The game has great replayability and after you get your butt kicked you think to yourself, ok one more try, even when there is late night.
Game can be superhard when designed well. I guess DS is such a game if people dont ragequit.
Playing: Rohan
Played (from best to worst): Shadowbane, Guild Wars, Shayia, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Runes of Magic, Rappelz, Archlord, Knight online, King of Kings, Kal online, Last chaos
I enjoyed The Immortal, I hated Battletoads. Both games very unforgiving in screwing up... so why like one over the other? *shrugs* Maybe someone else can explain it better.
If done right, major difficulty can be enjoyable and fun, rather than tedious and unrewarding...
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Wow's endgame IS EQ1.
The minute you hit level 80, you're pretty much done doing solo content, and with no experience bar you are now only chasing better gear or farming older content for gold. You are forced to group with 4 others for "heroics" (which are no longer anywhere near heroic in difficulty, but still not solo-able). If you're not a tank or healer, this means standing around for 15-30 minutes while queued in the looking for a group tool before every dungeon. It's like waiting in line at a very crowded ski lift. Whee.
Once you're fully kitted out in heroic and emblem gear, you can only advance (i.e. get better gear) by doing raids which require 10-25 players. Many raids won't take you unless you can show them you've completed the content before. Many raids won't take you unless your level of gear is beyond what's available from the content being raided.