There is ONLY one hard PVE game and that is FFXI.For PVP games they all have too many flaws,from offline advancement[definitely not hard mode]to time=reward,to better gear=win all that is not hard mode that is CHEAP mode.
Sure with the internet many players can copy ideas from other players,but in the early days ,NOTHING came close to the complexity of FFXI.That is why i fell in love with the game,it made me think about everything i do,nothing was automatic.
An example was in early days i automatic drew out my bow and started every solo fight with a bow,figuring that early first shot gave me the advantage.Later i realized there were other factors in prolonged fights,if it was like MOST games a 2-3 hit fight then yes that was a huge advantage,but not so in FFXI.You can bind,enfeeb witch gives better long term results,different classes offer again more diversity in combat,such as using the Thief with SA or Hide.A job like Ranger could load up his ability and have a high damage initial attack and be onto his WS much faster than all other jobs.Using the TP system and timers made for a lot of thinking,unlike MOST games you mash away at your hotbar and MOST timers are ridiculous 2-5 second timers and the fights are probably over already anyhow lol.
The problem is that EVERY single game basically copies EQ,it is very sad to see little to no diversity in game play,the same hotbar setup,the same one player single class system,nobody has learned to create anything new,except of course Square Enix.I would be willing to bet weather you or I like FFXIV,it will again be creative and challenging,far more so than any of these other EQ copy cats.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by Umbral Originally posted by drago_pl I don't understand this article... Lineage 2...
Lineage 2 is not exactly a challenging game. Lineage 2 is a time consuming game, encounters and dynamics in Lineage 2 are simple and easier than EQ/EQ2/WoW. You may say leveling, death penalty and gear are much more time consuming, expensive and harsh than some other MMOs, but the game itself is not "hard". Especially PvE, you need less strategy in Lineage 2 group/raid/dungeon than in FFXI, GW, WoW, EQ, EQ2 etc
Death penalty, item drop and ability to loose a castle during siege is enough to consider it a lot harder than games you listed. I'm of course speaking about PvP. PvE was dull as in any other game.
Lineage 2 is a time consuming game, encounters and dynamics in Lineage 2 are simple and easier than EQ/EQ2/WoW.
You may say leveling, death penalty and gear are much more time consuming, expensive and harsh than some other MMOs, but the game itself is not "hard". Especially PvE, you need less strategy in Lineage 2 group/raid/dungeon than in FFXI, GW, WoW, EQ, EQ2 etc
Death penalty, item drop and ability to loose a castle during siege is enough to consider it a lot harder than games you listed. I'm of course speaking about PvP. PvE was dull as in any other game.
What you are refering is time consuming and harsh penalties (some times inflicted by lag or other players only), not exactly challenging.
Unfortunatelly PvE in Lineage 2 is much, much more dull than most other games. (played the game for a long time in its early years and recently revisited the game)
Raid and Dungeon content are not popular around these forums but this kind of group content in some MMORPGs are far from dull.
Demon's Souls has the type of challenging content that may bring something new and interesting to MMOs, the dullness of pure and brainless time consuming offered by L2 won't make any game more interesting.
do find it fun how you in alot of these comments can see ppl have been playing MMOs for years. that you only really would have time for 1 game.
that said. reading about demons souls made me buy it....in mind since I dont have a PS3 :P, not because its oh so hardcore. but because it looks amazing.,,,,but I for sure dont want to sit feel like I could go through lvls with my eyes closed only have to open them to read abit of lore.....games need to be interactive to me. not a book...
One thing i found confusing about the artcle is that it was stated that you appreciated and respected the difficulty of Demon's souls and liked it for that, yet you quit EQ because of its difficulty.
I know many points were made about other games you liked but loving difficulty then hating it a few paragraphs down seemed a bit confusing on your main point of the article. Maybe its just me.
One thing i found confusing about the artcle is that it was stated that you appreciated and respected the difficulty of Demon's souls and liked it for that, yet you quit EQ because of its difficulty. I know many points were made about other games you liked but loving difficulty then hating it a few paragraphs down seemed a bit confusing on your main point of the article. Maybe its just me.
I think its because in EQ, the "difficult" features (the death penalty in particular) just annoyed me, while, in Demon's Souls, the difficulty seems "fair". But, yeah, I totally get your comment ... it is a bit confusing.
That's one of the reasons why I wrote the article, because I didn't bounce off Demon's Souls like I did off of EQ. And I wanted to investigate why that might be.
Writing a weekly article is still a pretty new thing for me -- I'm much more used to cranking out dry boring design docs. Hopefully, my articles are getting better as time goes on.
Anyways, thanks for the comments. They make me try harder the next time..
If we discount WoW as a statistical outlier (which everyone should, but rarely do), the one thing that the hard games have over the easy ones is longevity. Hard games require an investment. Once you're invested, it's hard to let go. Easy games are ... well ... easy to leave. And you don't particularly care what happens to your character because you can start a fresh one and cap the game in two or three months.
If we include WoW, then what you see isn't that the game keeps people around. It's that the number of people have reached the critical mass where they start staying for each other. WoW has become a cartoon chat room where people of all shapes, sizes and ages can be different people of all shapes, sizes and ages. Blizzard didn't really do anything else that anyone else hasn't done, and done it better. But people are now invested in the group, and as long as the group stays put, everyone stays put.
And call EVE a niche all you want. But it's probably one of the few games that can boast an increasing subscription base throughout its lifetime. That fact alone proves that more and more people are looking for more from a game than a themepark with devs holding your hand like mommy at disney world. Start looking at the increasing age of the average gamer, and more adult themes (conan) and more complex games (Fallen Earth) are going to become the norm again.
I think its because in EQ, the "difficult" features (the death penalty in particular) just annoyed me, while, in Demon's Souls, the difficulty seems "fair". But, yeah, I totally get your comment ... it is a bit confusing.
Maybe because the fair difficult of Demon's Souls make you really develop your skills and tatics as a player, you actually became a better player and improve your character ingame, the perfect balance in Demon's Souls make it explicit. It is a real challenge and as every real challenge it is rewarding.
The time sinking of some MMOs are not the same, as I said before they are not exactly hard in a challenging way, but time consuming... and annoying.
"Unforgiving" is different to "Difficult." Isn't it?
The description of the perils of Demon'sesSouls make it sound more like the former. That is, one shot deaths. That's unforgiving.
"Difficult" on the other hand offers a potentially broader spectrum of peril before total destruction, ie having a health bar erode away over a SERIES of harrowing ordeals. It could be just as hard, but not as infuriating, surely.
I utterly utterly hate having to reload from ages back. This kind of game mechanic just spells frustration for me. I like that so many people brought Dragon Age up a game in which I found myself completely repeatedly murdered by street thugs, but only mildly inconvenienced by my (very milnor spoiler) battle with the arch-demon.
With the exception of that fact that I was being made a fool of by STREET THUGS, I didn't mind having to reload to fight them again. Why? There were plenty of things I could try. There was an ebb and flow. A back and forth. A sort of quite tangible teetering scale of victory visible throughout the fight. Sure, everything I did was critical, but I would be undone by a combination of mistakes rather than one slip.
Anyhow, I think its important to separate those two definitions out. I love a hard game but Demons's'sssS'souls's doesn't sound like my cup of tea, based on that list offered. They weren't perils so much as punishments.
"Unforgiving" is different to "Difficult." Isn't it? The description of the perils of Demon'sesSouls make it sound more like the former. That is, one shot deaths. That's unforgiving.
-Not exactly only enemies that are far beyond your level, enemies you clearly are not suposed to fight at that moment will "one hit you". A dragon can kill you with one hit at eary levels, but the game gives you all the hints to avoid it, you will only fall for it if you are not paying attention. Nothing in Demon's Souls will be a real unforgiven "surprise", but all combats will be challenging.
"Difficult" on the other hand offers a potentially broader spectrum of peril before total destruction, ie having a health bar erode away over a SERIES of harrowing ordeals. It could be just as hard, but not as infuriating, surely. I utterly utterly hate having to reload from ages back. This kind of game mechanic just spells frustration for me. I like that so many people brought Dragon Age up a game in which I found myself completely repeatedly murdered by street thugs, but only mildly inconvenienced by my (very milnor spoiler) battle with the arch-demon.
-Dragon Age has indeed a lot of balance issues in its encounters, the same does not happen with Demon's Souls, the balance and gameplay variaty based on weapons and spells you decide to have is impressive. I am under the impression you got the wrong impression about Demon's Souls based on some details. The differance between Demon's Souls and Dragon Age is that everything you do in Demon's Souls matters and the game is saved every second, if you kill the NPC who gives you miracles, it is done, you will see him only in a new game. In Dragon Age you can mess with the game all the time and just reload a saved game. This is why balance is so important in Demon's Souls, and they actualy got it right.
With the exception of that fact that I was being made a fool of by STREET THUGS, I didn't mind having to reload to fight them again. Why? There were plenty of things I could try. There was an ebb and flow. A back and forth. A sort of quite tangible teetering scale of victory visible throughout the fight. Sure, everything I did was critical, but I would be undone by a combination of mistakes rather than one slip.
The same apply to Demon's Souls, the difference is that you beat a challenge based on your attention, skills, character development and understandment of the game mechanics. You will not be able to reload and play the last 5 minutes again and again till you beat it without lose something so in the end everything you accomplish in the game is rewarding. Even when you die you learn a new strategy so even death in Demon's Souls can be somehow rewarding.
Anyhow, I think its important to separate those two definitions out. I love a hard game but Demons's'sssS'souls's doesn't sound like my cup of tea, based on that list offered. They weren't perils so much as punishments. Bugger that.
-No game is for everyone, but based on your comparisons between Dragon Age and Demon's Souls, it seems you have a false impression about it. Demon's Souls is very unique, so it is hard for someone to understand how the game works without playing it. Dragon Age everyone already "experienced" before by the name of Neverwinter Nights, Baldur's Gate 2... sure not exactly the same game but the fundations are the same. Nothing is really similar to Demon's Souls A bit more on Demon's Souls: www.gametrailers.com/video/best-role-playing-gt-goty/60211 Best RPG of 2009 gametrailers.
"Unforgiving" is different to "Difficult." Isn't it? The description of the perils of Demon'sesSouls make it sound more like the former. That is, one shot deaths. That's unforgiving.
-Not exactly only enemies that are far beyond your level, enemies you clearly are not suposed to fight at that moment will "one hit you". A dragon can kill you with one hit at eary levels, but the game gives you all the hints to avoid it, you will only fall for it if you are not paying attention. Nothing in Demon's Souls will be a real unforgiven "surprise", but all combats will be challenging.
"Difficult" on the other hand offers a potentially broader spectrum of peril before total destruction, ie having a health bar erode away over a SERIES of harrowing ordeals. It could be just as hard, but not as infuriating, surely. I utterly utterly hate having to reload from ages back. This kind of game mechanic just spells frustration for me. I like that so many people brought Dragon Age up a game in which I found myself completely repeatedly murdered by street thugs, but only mildly inconvenienced by my (very milnor spoiler) battle with the arch-demon.
-Dragon Age has indeed a lot of balance issues in its encounters, the same does not happen with Demon's Souls, the balance and gameplay variaty based on weapons and spells you decide to have is impressive. I am under the impression you got the wrong impression about Demon's Souls based on some details. The differance between Demon's Souls and Dragon Age is that everything you do in Demon's Souls matters and the game is saved every second, if you kill the NPC who gives you miracles, it is done, you will see him only in a new game. In Dragon Age you can mess with the game all the time and just reload a saved game. This is why balance is so important in Demon's Souls, and they actualy got it right.
With the exception of that fact that I was being made a fool of by STREET THUGS, I didn't mind having to reload to fight them again. Why? There were plenty of things I could try. There was an ebb and flow. A back and forth. A sort of quite tangible teetering scale of victory visible throughout the fight. Sure, everything I did was critical, but I would be undone by a combination of mistakes rather than one slip.
The same apply to Demon's Souls, the difference is that you beat a challenge based on your attention, skills, character development and understandment of the game mechanics. You will not be able to reload and play the last 5 minutes again and again till you beat it without lose something so in the end everything you accomplish in the game is rewarding. Even when you die you learn a new strategy so even death in Demon's Souls can be somehow rewarding.
Anyhow, I think its important to separate those two definitions out. I love a hard game but Demons's'sssS'souls's doesn't sound like my cup of tea, based on that list offered. They weren't perils so much as punishments. Bugger that.
-No game is for everyone, but based on your comparisons between Dragon Age and Demon's Souls, it seems you have a false impression about it. Demon's Souls is very unique, so it is hard for someone to understand how the game works without playing it. Dragon Age everyone already "experienced" before by the name of Neverwinter Nights, Baldur's Gate 2... sure not exactly the same game but the fundations are the same. Nothing is really similar to Demon's Souls A bit more on Demon's Souls: www.gametrailers.com/video/best-role-playing-gt-goty/60211 Best RPG of 2009 gametrailers.
I enjoyed The Immortal, I hated Battletoads. Both games very unforgiving in screwing up... so why like one over the other? *shrugs* Maybe someone else can explain it better. If done right, major difficulty can be enjoyable and fun, rather than tedious and unrewarding...
Hey Is "THE IMMORTAL" the game where if you stood still for more then a few seconds a worm would come out of the floor and eat you? If it is that game drove a friend and I insane for 5 days straight. we could never succed at the last fight thought, tried everything we could think of but never beat it. That damn game still haunts me to this day.
I enjoyed The Immortal, I hated Battletoads. Both games very unforgiving in screwing up... so why like one over the other? *shrugs* Maybe someone else can explain it better. If done right, major difficulty can be enjoyable and fun, rather than tedious and unrewarding...
Aaahh.... Battletoads! That was an awesome game... and it took forever before i made it through.
I was especially fond of the yellow murderous ducks. If you got too close they would one-shot you, sending you flying across the screen.
Sorry, but any good video game will let the player choose how difficult they want the game to be. WoW does this inherently, since you can strip your gear, and group with a bunch of noobs if you want a real challenge. Most of these whiners use so many addons and only take players with the highest gearscores, and then whine that the game is too easy. Whatever.
Do players not have any creativity or imagination left? They expect to be spoonfed "challenging" content instead of being able to find a challenge in the more mundane aspects of these games. "Boring", to me, lies in the same subjective category as "challenging".
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Another thing I find interesting in this thread is the amount of punishment they're willing to accept from a single encounter in a game.
For me, I love games so much I want to play many of them. There are more games I want to play then there is time to play them, and I play a LOT of hours (semi-retired).
Having said that, if I fail to beat a boss on the second attempt, I'm seriously reanalyzing my strategy. But if I fail 5 or 6 times, I'm immediately going to the internet to find a solution/cheat. If for whatever reason, I'm still unable to get past an encounter by say, try twelve or thirteen, I uninstall the game and seriously consider whether or not to ever buy another game by that publisher.
Let the player choose the difficulty that is most fun to them. If you design a game where many players can get stuck, they may wind up simply not experiencing the content that follows that point. Surely, no creator wants that. In designing a game, I would have many difficulty settings, including a 'you-can't-lose' one. No game should ever have a single encounter (save perhaps the very last one) where a player can get perma-stuck.
I have to make steady progress in every game. Any less kills my immersion and fun. Heck, I have played many sections of games on god-mode because the playing of the game gets in the way of the story it is trying to tell.
It's not a lack of patience with challenges, I'm just eager to see what's next, to continue the journey. In thirty years of playing computer games, I would say I've completed perhaps half of them. Sometimes that's due to losing interest, but sometimes it's due to difficutly. I always feel shorted when this happens.
I'm seriously LOL'ing my ass off at people here who are getting so defensive about games that pose a challenge and how we don't need them because there's so much bull **** going on in their lives that they don't need it from games. I'm pretty sure then all these people never watch horror and thriller movies and there DVD shack is full of only comedies and Christmas movies, right? Right. And for these people, casual games are EVERYWHERE. Look around you, find me 1 gamestore where you won't find World Of Warcraft or Modern Warfare 2?
Whereas gems like Demon's Souls are once in a while treat. Totally. ****ing. Epic DS is. Only game out of my current library that totally makes me forget everything and immerses me in. Believe me when I say this, there's so much **** going on in my life right now you wouldn't believe how I managed a PS3/HDTV even.
But Demon's Souls...woah...the challenge in this game is so brilliant and agressive, I LOVE IT. The lore is beautifully dark and mystical, and if you play online you feel you're never alone even though nobody is there with you. And the challenge, the action in the game literally brings out the absolute best in me. THIS is how Gaming began for me on NES with Super Mario Bros. You die, you spawn back at the very beginning, limited life spawns, the game does not care if you were 2 steps after from saving the final princess on your last life, Game Over. NO save points/level passwords, if you don't think and play with strategy you have no hopes of finishing the game.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking more stuff like DS, Casuals are EVERYWHERE, you people have nothing to complain about. And unless its hard and challenging, its not exciting for me and a lot of other people. For the same reasons the only MMO I'm looking forward to is FF14.
Also some posts here are making DS sound like the game will put you through hell no matter what. Not true. Game is unforgiving only if you take it for granted, but as long as you think about every step that you take back and forth and every little attack that you make, you'll be beating end level bosses like 4-2, 3-3 and 3-4 in first try. Just keep your shields up, keep your distance, and strike when they are open, then put your shields back up. And you'll see it pays off when you play with strategy.
I'm seriously LOL'ing my ass off at people here who are getting so defensive about games that pose a challenge and how we don't need them because there's so much bull **** going on in their lives that they don't need it from games.
Not ONE DAMN PERSON has said that "we don't need games that pose a challenge." NOT ONE. Just because we don't choose to play the absolute most difficult of games, doesn't mean we don't think there are other people that might love those. As a matter of fact...the people that have seemed MOST intolerant in this thread, have not been the people that aren't fond of extremely difficult games, but the others that love them.
There's no reason why we can't have a world FILLED with ALL KINDS of games. Just because it's the kind that YOU like doesn't make the kinds that others like BAD.
I'm pretty sure then all these people never watch horror and thriller movies and there DVD shack is full of only comedies and Christmas movies, right? Right. And for these people, casual games are EVERYWHERE. Look around you, find me 1 gamestore where you won't find World Of Warcraft or Modern Warfare 2?
Wrong. I have ALL kinds of movies on my DVD shelf and it's a rather large collection. I also subscribe to Netflix. I'm into all types of movies.
Whereas gems like Demon's Souls are once in a while treat. Totally. ****ing. Epic DS is. Only game out of my current library that totally makes me forget everything and immerses me in. Believe me when I say this, there's so much **** going on in my life right now you wouldn't believe how I managed a PS3/HDTV even.
YAY for you! I'm glad you're playing a game you're enjoying! Now if you would just extend that same consideration to others that enjoy other TYPES of games....gee wouldn't that be swell? lol
But Demon's Souls...woah...the challenge in this game is so brilliant and agressive, I LOVE IT. The lore is beautifully dark and mystical, and if you play online you feel you're never alone even though nobody is there with you. And the challenge, the action in the game literally brings out the absolute best in me. THIS is how Gaming began for me on NES with Super Mario Bros. You die, you spawn back at the very beginning, limited life spawns, the game does not care if you were 2 steps after from saving the final princess on your last life, Game Over. NO save points/level passwords, if you don't think and play with strategy you have no hopes of finishing the game.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking more stuff like DS, Casuals are EVERYWHERE, you people have nothing to complain about. And unless its hard and challenging, its not exciting for me and a lot of other people. For the same reasons the only MMO I'm looking forward to is FF14.
AGAIN....who said that there WAS anything wrong with you wanting more games like this??? No one. And I don't see anyone complaining EITHER. We're only stating our own preferences, just like YOU are....dif? I like challenges. I do NOT like feeling like ripping my hair out. To ME...those things are not equivalent. That isn't fun for ME. And while you have YOUR preference in challenge level, so do others. You're not RIGHT....and neither are those that don't like quite as extreme of a challenge. There's nothing to be "right" about. We all just have different taste. Big fucking deal.
Not ONE DAMN PERSON has said that "we don't need games that pose a challenge." NOT ONE.
Then why are you getting so upset?
Just because we don't choose to play the absolute most difficult of games, doesn't mean we don't think there are other people that might love those.
Absolutely, world would be boring without variety.
have not been the people that aren't fond of extremely difficult games, but the others that love them.
O RLY NAO? I haven't read most of this thread, then what's all the debate about? Oddly enough I'm seeing your posts on like, every page here attacking nearly all the posts pro-difficult games.
Just because it's the kind that YOU like doesn't make the kinds that others like BAD.
Well said.
Wrong. I have ALL kinds of movies on my DVD shelf and it's a rather large collection. I also subscribe to Netflix. I'm into all types of movies.
Let me put this another way, you said before people...or you rather not play difficult games because there's too much misery in real life? Yet you still watch horror movies.
Same way there are people who are Resident Evil, Silent Hill fans who actually don't have a merry and perfect life. Some just love horror, thrills of challenging games because its entertaining to them, and real life has nothing to do with it. Everyone is different.
YAY for you! I'm glad you're playing a game you're enjoying! Now if you would just extend that same consideration to others that enjoy other TYPES of games....gee wouldn't that be swell? lol
Consideration? What do you want me to say exactly? When did I ever say being a casual gamer is bad in any way? All I said was casual, light games are everywhere and stuff like Demon's Souls is hard to come by.
O__o
AGAIN....who said that there WAS anything wrong with you wanting more games like this??? No one. And I don't see anyone complaining EITHER. We're only stating our own preferences, just like YOU are....dif? I like challenges. I do NOT like feeling like ripping my hair out. To ME...those things are not equivalent. That isn't fun for ME. And while you have YOUR preference in challenge level, so do others. You're not RIGHT....and neither are those that don't like quite as extreme of a challenge. There's nothing to be "right" about. We all just have different taste. Big fucking deal.
I'm like you there, infact, if there's a game that will make me rip my hair off (see some of the games that Angryvideogamenerd plays), I won't bother with it because that's just asking for unreal amounts of dedication and skill that really isn't worth the trouble. DS, while you die a lot and lose everything, I just curse myself for dying, not the game, because the game clearly told me if I slack off I will die and it was entirely my fault that I have start over because had I been more careful, I would have seen that fall/hidden mob or whatever, and that's where its successful.
And like you said, everyone has their preference. I don't see what the big debate here is about. If someone is saying challenging hard games are only things that matter in life then they don't what they're saying, and on the other hand if anybody is saying Easy games are the way of life because we've got too much to deal with in real life also need to get some balls.
I'm ok with the WoW level of easyness. I'm not logging on to these games to constantly get punched in the face (as you say). I really don't like PvP because it almost always starts being abused by brainless 12-year-olds, who I could easily destroy in real life with a single blast from my nose. EVE has about the maximum level of PvP that I will tolerate, not too much of a problem if you play it half way smart.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone set my mind in motion.
I myself want MMO to get their RPG flair back. They are to easy now and I see you mentioned STO. Talk about easy mode, it isn't even an MMO more of a single player online game. It is almost impossible to die in the game outside of PvP. I stopped playing it because there is no challenge but what are we to do since this is the tread, single player MMOs all over the place which shouldn't even have a subscription fee.
I think the thing I enjoy most in a game is the sense of achievement. And the harder the game, the more satisfying the achievement.
Some may disagree with this sentiment, and they are welcome to it. For me, the most satisfying things require the most sweat and tears. So now I am going to go take on a guild in Darkfall... WITH my armor!
Comments
There is ONLY one hard PVE game and that is FFXI.For PVP games they all have too many flaws,from offline advancement[definitely not hard mode]to time=reward,to better gear=win all that is not hard mode that is CHEAP mode.
Sure with the internet many players can copy ideas from other players,but in the early days ,NOTHING came close to the complexity of FFXI.That is why i fell in love with the game,it made me think about everything i do,nothing was automatic.
An example was in early days i automatic drew out my bow and started every solo fight with a bow,figuring that early first shot gave me the advantage.Later i realized there were other factors in prolonged fights,if it was like MOST games a 2-3 hit fight then yes that was a huge advantage,but not so in FFXI.You can bind,enfeeb witch gives better long term results,different classes offer again more diversity in combat,such as using the Thief with SA or Hide.A job like Ranger could load up his ability and have a high damage initial attack and be onto his WS much faster than all other jobs.Using the TP system and timers made for a lot of thinking,unlike MOST games you mash away at your hotbar and MOST timers are ridiculous 2-5 second timers and the fights are probably over already anyhow lol.
The problem is that EVERY single game basically copies EQ,it is very sad to see little to no diversity in game play,the same hotbar setup,the same one player single class system,nobody has learned to create anything new,except of course Square Enix.I would be willing to bet weather you or I like FFXIV,it will again be creative and challenging,far more so than any of these other EQ copy cats.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Lineage 2 is not exactly a challenging game.
Lineage 2 is a time consuming game, encounters and dynamics in Lineage 2 are simple and easier than EQ/EQ2/WoW.
You may say leveling, death penalty and gear are much more time consuming, expensive and harsh than some other MMOs, but the game itself is not "hard". Especially PvE, you need less strategy in Lineage 2 group/raid/dungeon than in FFXI, GW, WoW, EQ, EQ2 etc
Death penalty, item drop and ability to loose a castle during siege is enough to consider it a lot harder than games you listed. I'm of course speaking about PvP. PvE was dull as in any other game.
Lineage 2 is not exactly a challenging game.
Lineage 2 is a time consuming game, encounters and dynamics in Lineage 2 are simple and easier than EQ/EQ2/WoW.
You may say leveling, death penalty and gear are much more time consuming, expensive and harsh than some other MMOs, but the game itself is not "hard". Especially PvE, you need less strategy in Lineage 2 group/raid/dungeon than in FFXI, GW, WoW, EQ, EQ2 etc
Death penalty, item drop and ability to loose a castle during siege is enough to consider it a lot harder than games you listed. I'm of course speaking about PvP. PvE was dull as in any other game.
What you are refering is time consuming and harsh penalties (some times inflicted by lag or other players only), not exactly challenging.
Unfortunatelly PvE in Lineage 2 is much, much more dull than most other games. (played the game for a long time in its early years and recently revisited the game)
Raid and Dungeon content are not popular around these forums but this kind of group content in some MMORPGs are far from dull.
Demon's Souls has the type of challenging content that may bring something new and interesting to MMOs, the dullness of pure and brainless time consuming offered by L2 won't make any game more interesting.
do find it fun how you in alot of these comments can see ppl have been playing MMOs for years. that you only really would have time for 1 game.
that said. reading about demons souls made me buy it....in mind since I dont have a PS3 :P, not because its oh so hardcore. but because it looks amazing.,,,,but I for sure dont want to sit feel like I could go through lvls with my eyes closed only have to open them to read abit of lore.....games need to be interactive to me. not a book...
One thing i found confusing about the artcle is that it was stated that you appreciated and respected the difficulty of Demon's souls and liked it for that, yet you quit EQ because of its difficulty.
I know many points were made about other games you liked but loving difficulty then hating it a few paragraphs down seemed a bit confusing on your main point of the article. Maybe its just me.
Work hard Play Harder
I think its because in EQ, the "difficult" features (the death penalty in particular) just annoyed me, while, in Demon's Souls, the difficulty seems "fair". But, yeah, I totally get your comment ... it is a bit confusing.
That's one of the reasons why I wrote the article, because I didn't bounce off Demon's Souls like I did off of EQ. And I wanted to investigate why that might be.
Writing a weekly article is still a pretty new thing for me -- I'm much more used to cranking out dry boring design docs. Hopefully, my articles are getting better as time goes on.
Anyways, thanks for the comments. They make me try harder the next time..
If we discount WoW as a statistical outlier (which everyone should, but rarely do), the one thing that the hard games have over the easy ones is longevity. Hard games require an investment. Once you're invested, it's hard to let go. Easy games are ... well ... easy to leave. And you don't particularly care what happens to your character because you can start a fresh one and cap the game in two or three months.
If we include WoW, then what you see isn't that the game keeps people around. It's that the number of people have reached the critical mass where they start staying for each other. WoW has become a cartoon chat room where people of all shapes, sizes and ages can be different people of all shapes, sizes and ages. Blizzard didn't really do anything else that anyone else hasn't done, and done it better. But people are now invested in the group, and as long as the group stays put, everyone stays put.
And call EVE a niche all you want. But it's probably one of the few games that can boast an increasing subscription base throughout its lifetime. That fact alone proves that more and more people are looking for more from a game than a themepark with devs holding your hand like mommy at disney world. Start looking at the increasing age of the average gamer, and more adult themes (conan) and more complex games (Fallen Earth) are going to become the norm again.
At least I hope so.
Maybe because the fair difficult of Demon's Souls make you really develop your skills and tatics as a player, you actually became a better player and improve your character ingame, the perfect balance in Demon's Souls make it explicit. It is a real challenge and as every real challenge it is rewarding.
The time sinking of some MMOs are not the same, as I said before they are not exactly hard in a challenging way, but time consuming... and annoying.
...
"Unforgiving" is different to "Difficult." Isn't it?
The description of the perils of Demon'sesSouls make it sound more like the former. That is, one shot deaths. That's unforgiving.
"Difficult" on the other hand offers a potentially broader spectrum of peril before total destruction, ie having a health bar erode away over a SERIES of harrowing ordeals. It could be just as hard, but not as infuriating, surely.
I utterly utterly hate having to reload from ages back. This kind of game mechanic just spells frustration for me. I like that so many people brought Dragon Age up a game in which I found myself completely repeatedly murdered by street thugs, but only mildly inconvenienced by my (very milnor spoiler) battle with the arch-demon.
With the exception of that fact that I was being made a fool of by STREET THUGS, I didn't mind having to reload to fight them again. Why? There were plenty of things I could try. There was an ebb and flow. A back and forth. A sort of quite tangible teetering scale of victory visible throughout the fight. Sure, everything I did was critical, but I would be undone by a combination of mistakes rather than one slip.
Anyhow, I think its important to separate those two definitions out. I love a hard game but Demons's'sssS'souls's doesn't sound like my cup of tea, based on that list offered. They weren't perils so much as punishments.
Bugger that.
MMO genre needs more "hard" games like this to add some variety to the games published and fill a gap that many of us out here want.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Thanks for such a thorough response, it sounds indeed like I did get a false impression.
I'll have to take a closer look at the game and consult my financial advisor (girlfriend) about actually purchasing it.
Hey Is "THE IMMORTAL" the game where if you stood still for more then a few seconds a worm would come out of the floor and eat you? If it is that game drove a friend and I insane for 5 days straight. we could never succed at the last fight thought, tried everything we could think of but never beat it. That damn game still haunts me to this day.
Aaahh.... Battletoads! That was an awesome game... and it took forever before i made it through.
I was especially fond of the yellow murderous ducks. If you got too close they would one-shot you, sending you flying across the screen.
Sorry, but any good video game will let the player choose how difficult they want the game to be. WoW does this inherently, since you can strip your gear, and group with a bunch of noobs if you want a real challenge. Most of these whiners use so many addons and only take players with the highest gearscores, and then whine that the game is too easy. Whatever.
Do players not have any creativity or imagination left? They expect to be spoonfed "challenging" content instead of being able to find a challenge in the more mundane aspects of these games. "Boring", to me, lies in the same subjective category as "challenging".
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Another thing I find interesting in this thread is the amount of punishment they're willing to accept from a single encounter in a game.
For me, I love games so much I want to play many of them. There are more games I want to play then there is time to play them, and I play a LOT of hours (semi-retired).
Having said that, if I fail to beat a boss on the second attempt, I'm seriously reanalyzing my strategy. But if I fail 5 or 6 times, I'm immediately going to the internet to find a solution/cheat. If for whatever reason, I'm still unable to get past an encounter by say, try twelve or thirteen, I uninstall the game and seriously consider whether or not to ever buy another game by that publisher.
Let the player choose the difficulty that is most fun to them. If you design a game where many players can get stuck, they may wind up simply not experiencing the content that follows that point. Surely, no creator wants that. In designing a game, I would have many difficulty settings, including a 'you-can't-lose' one. No game should ever have a single encounter (save perhaps the very last one) where a player can get perma-stuck.
I have to make steady progress in every game. Any less kills my immersion and fun. Heck, I have played many sections of games on god-mode because the playing of the game gets in the way of the story it is trying to tell.
It's not a lack of patience with challenges, I'm just eager to see what's next, to continue the journey. In thirty years of playing computer games, I would say I've completed perhaps half of them. Sometimes that's due to losing interest, but sometimes it's due to difficutly. I always feel shorted when this happens.
I'm seriously LOL'ing my ass off at people here who are getting so defensive about games that pose a challenge and how we don't need them because there's so much bull **** going on in their lives that they don't need it from games. I'm pretty sure then all these people never watch horror and thriller movies and there DVD shack is full of only comedies and Christmas movies, right? Right. And for these people, casual games are EVERYWHERE. Look around you, find me 1 gamestore where you won't find World Of Warcraft or Modern Warfare 2?
Whereas gems like Demon's Souls are once in a while treat. Totally. ****ing. Epic DS is. Only game out of my current library that totally makes me forget everything and immerses me in. Believe me when I say this, there's so much **** going on in my life right now you wouldn't believe how I managed a PS3/HDTV even.
But Demon's Souls...woah...the challenge in this game is so brilliant and agressive, I LOVE IT. The lore is beautifully dark and mystical, and if you play online you feel you're never alone even though nobody is there with you. And the challenge, the action in the game literally brings out the absolute best in me. THIS is how Gaming began for me on NES with Super Mario Bros. You die, you spawn back at the very beginning, limited life spawns, the game does not care if you were 2 steps after from saving the final princess on your last life, Game Over. NO save points/level passwords, if you don't think and play with strategy you have no hopes of finishing the game.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking more stuff like DS, Casuals are EVERYWHERE, you people have nothing to complain about. And unless its hard and challenging, its not exciting for me and a lot of other people. For the same reasons the only MMO I'm looking forward to is FF14.
Also some posts here are making DS sound like the game will put you through hell no matter what. Not true. Game is unforgiving only if you take it for granted, but as long as you think about every step that you take back and forth and every little attack that you make, you'll be beating end level bosses like 4-2, 3-3 and 3-4 in first try. Just keep your shields up, keep your distance, and strike when they are open, then put your shields back up. And you'll see it pays off when you play with strategy.
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Not ONE DAMN PERSON has said that "we don't need games that pose a challenge." NOT ONE.
Then why are you getting so upset?
Just because we don't choose to play the absolute most difficult of games, doesn't mean we don't think there are other people that might love those.
Absolutely, world would be boring without variety.
have not been the people that aren't fond of extremely difficult games, but the others that love them.
O RLY NAO? I haven't read most of this thread, then what's all the debate about? Oddly enough I'm seeing your posts on like, every page here attacking nearly all the posts pro-difficult games.
Just because it's the kind that YOU like doesn't make the kinds that others like BAD.
Well said.
Wrong. I have ALL kinds of movies on my DVD shelf and it's a rather large collection. I also subscribe to Netflix. I'm into all types of movies.
Let me put this another way, you said before people...or you rather not play difficult games because there's too much misery in real life? Yet you still watch horror movies.
Same way there are people who are Resident Evil, Silent Hill fans who actually don't have a merry and perfect life. Some just love horror, thrills of challenging games because its entertaining to them, and real life has nothing to do with it. Everyone is different.
YAY for you! I'm glad you're playing a game you're enjoying! Now if you would just extend that same consideration to others that enjoy other TYPES of games....gee wouldn't that be swell? lol
Consideration? What do you want me to say exactly? When did I ever say being a casual gamer is bad in any way? All I said was casual, light games are everywhere and stuff like Demon's Souls is hard to come by.
O__o
AGAIN....who said that there WAS anything wrong with you wanting more games like this??? No one. And I don't see anyone complaining EITHER. We're only stating our own preferences, just like YOU are....dif? I like challenges. I do NOT like feeling like ripping my hair out. To ME...those things are not equivalent. That isn't fun for ME. And while you have YOUR preference in challenge level, so do others. You're not RIGHT....and neither are those that don't like quite as extreme of a challenge. There's nothing to be "right" about. We all just have different taste. Big fucking deal.
I'm like you there, infact, if there's a game that will make me rip my hair off (see some of the games that Angryvideogamenerd plays), I won't bother with it because that's just asking for unreal amounts of dedication and skill that really isn't worth the trouble. DS, while you die a lot and lose everything, I just curse myself for dying, not the game, because the game clearly told me if I slack off I will die and it was entirely my fault that I have start over because had I been more careful, I would have seen that fall/hidden mob or whatever, and that's where its successful.
And like you said, everyone has their preference. I don't see what the big debate here is about. If someone is saying challenging hard games are only things that matter in life then they don't what they're saying, and on the other hand if anybody is saying Easy games are the way of life because we've got too much to deal with in real life also need to get some balls.
I'm ok with the WoW level of easyness. I'm not logging on to these games to constantly get punched in the face (as you say). I really don't like PvP because it almost always starts being abused by brainless 12-year-olds, who I could easily destroy in real life with a single blast from my nose. EVE has about the maximum level of PvP that I will tolerate, not too much of a problem if you play it half way smart.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning.
It is by caffeine alone set my mind in motion.
I myself want MMO to get their RPG flair back. They are to easy now and I see you mentioned STO. Talk about easy mode, it isn't even an MMO more of a single player online game. It is almost impossible to die in the game outside of PvP. I stopped playing it because there is no challenge but what are we to do since this is the tread, single player MMOs all over the place which shouldn't even have a subscription fee.
Cut the personal attacks and stay on topic guys. You're on thin ice, consider this your warning.
I think the thing I enjoy most in a game is the sense of achievement. And the harder the game, the more satisfying the achievement.
Some may disagree with this sentiment, and they are welcome to it. For me, the most satisfying things require the most sweat and tears. So now I am going to go take on a guild in Darkfall... WITH my armor!
Come get some, Carebears!
I miss the days of UO, when dying was such a bad thing you had to laugh to keep from crying. Bring back something like that plz