How can they say numbers are standing at 11.5 mil, when in fact over the course of the last year the Chinese servers have gone down, back up again, back down again, and back up again, with no WotLK of course. If my memory serves me right, the first time they were closed for over 6 weeks, the second time for even more, and they say throughout 2009 the subs were at 11.5 mil? I don't think so.
They said "hovering", but I'm not taking that as the truth in any way. I take it as they have dipped below 11.5 million, and are merely saving face and subs. What else would/should they say if the population is actually in decline. Blizzard has a new baby in the oven that needs feeding dontcha know
1st quarter 2009: 314 million
4 quarter 2009: 329 million
Hard cash proof.
You are just trolling
Clearly you are missing the whole point entirely....still. This isn't about how much money they brought in this year, the last year, or whatever.
As someone else has pointed, you seem to be using "Zorndorf" logic here. You'll be able to play WOW for many years to come, but you're just going to have to accept the fact that it will not be king of the hill forever.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
A guy who is actually saying something decent about WOW is being hacked and slashed to pieces and confronted with one of the most hard WOW fan boys of all time.
I didn't even hear an answer to the China situation or the economic recession or the 14 months long period between an expansion. Nope let's tackle the man without giving arguments.
I only see a voluntary way to "kill the WOW" game and insult guys who reckon the game has staying power without doubt.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
You jest about a WoW amusement park but I wouldn't be surprised if that happend. If they can make a PotC movie out of the themepark they can certainly do the opposite with WoW. The only difference between camp11111 and Zorn is that zorn used all of those underlines in his posts. Otherwise the style is identical.
How dare you.
These accusations are completely unexceptable.
I will not stand for the crap that's being said about my baby WOW.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Last year WOW made 1.2 Billion Dollars.
That equates to 60% of all MMO subscribers worldwide.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
WoW will easily reach the 10 year mark and most likely still have over 2million players then. the wife and I enjoyed it off and on for years. Other developers helped WoW stay on top by giving us nothing but junk the last few years. Personally I would love a DAoC 2 minus the botters.
Camp, I won't get into those questions about economics because they aren't really my thing (honestly I don't care about it, I'd rather comment on the actual games rather than the commercial success of a game). You'd have to ask them about it. I never really had an issue with Zorndorf other than his tendency to present opinions as facts.
WoW will easily reach the 10 year mark and most likely still have over 2million players then. the wife and I enjoyed it off and on for years. Other developers helped WoW stay on top by giving us nothing but junk the last few years. Personally I would love a DAoC 2 minus the botters.
I would go as far as to say its going to make the 10 year mark and maintain atleast 10 million subscriptions / players. The expansion this year will easily bring in more people / old people to the game that are new and/or have left the game.
The fact that the expansion will lower the point of entry into the game by having new quests that are on par with WoTLK will help bring in new people to the game.
If they can hold to there yearly plan for future expansions there is nothing to keep the game from maintaining / growing its player base. The warcraft universe is huge and new content can always be added to it. New worlds can easily be added to the game and even new dimensions could be added. I expect to see some form of housing / guild housing in the expansion after Cata. Cata is already planning to add a guild leveling / ranking system to the game and thats could easily be the basis for any type of guild housing system.
Some people complain about the graphics of WoW and to a point they have valid opinions on it. But I look at the graphics as a way for them to focus more on the story / content / polish. Anytime you can shift the focus of your game away from the graphics is a positive thing. Age of Conan showed that graphics alone do not make a great game. Most of AoC's development time was spent purely on making the graphics for the game. An example would be it could take a week to model and create a character for Age of Conan, where a character model for World of Warcraft could be completed in a day. (Thats just an example) (Everyone knows a low poly model is easier to model then spending hours on the finer details of a higher poly model.)
I don't for see World of Warcraft going anywhere anytime soon. Unless Blizzard shuts it down or makes a WoW 2.
As far as the population goes many people are neglecting the fact that World of Warcraft in China has / was put on hold for several months due to legal issues. The game was completely shut down and noone was allowed to tuch it there. China is / was a big growing point for World of Warcraft. Chinese gamers make up a huge market. Larger then the US and EU put togeather. The fact that they have retained 11 million + subscriptions / players is a huge feat for a game thats pushing 5 years old and had a large chunk of its players shutdown in a key market. (Now thats not to say they couldn't have accessed the game from other markets - but thats something that NOONE here knows the details on. Blizzard holds them cards and only they have / know the information. We can only speculate.)
WoW will easily reach the 10 year mark and most likely still have over 2million players then. the wife and I enjoyed it off and on for years. Other developers helped WoW stay on top by giving us nothing but junk the last few years. Personally I would love a DAoC 2 minus the botters.
I would go as far as to say its going to make the 10 year mark and maintain atleast 10 million subscriptions / players. The expansion this year will easily bring in more people / old people to the game that are new and/or have left the game.
The fact that the expansion will lower the point of entry into the game by having new quests that are on par with WoTLK will help bring in new people to the game.
If they can hold to there yearly plan for future expansions there is nothing to keep the game from maintaining / growing its player base. The warcraft universe is huge and new content can always be added to it. New worlds can easily be added to the game and even new dimensions could be added. I expect to see some form of housing / guild housing in the expansion after Cata. Cata is already planning to add a guild leveling / ranking system to the game and thats could easily be the basis for any type of guild housing system.
Some people complain about the graphics of WoW and to a point they have valid opinions on it. But I look at the graphics as a way for them to focus more on the story / content / polish. Anytime you can shift the focus of your game away from the graphics is a positive thing. Age of Conan showed that graphics alone do not make a great game. Most of AoC's development time was spent purely on making the graphics for the game. An example would be it could take a week to model and create a character for Age of Conan, where a character model for World of Warcraft could be completed in a day. (Thats just an example) (Everyone knows a low poly model is easier to model then spending hours on the finer details of a higher poly model.)
I don't for see World of Warcraft going anywhere anytime soon. Unless Blizzard shuts it down or makes a WoW 2.
As far as the population goes many people are neglecting the fact that World of Warcraft in China has / was put on hold for several months due to legal issues. The game was completely shut down and noone was allowed to tuch it there. China is / was a big growing point for World of Warcraft. Chinese gamers make up a huge market. Larger then the US and EU put togeather. The fact that they have retained 11 million + subscriptions / players is a huge feat for a game thats pushing 5 years old and had a large chunk of its players shutdown in a key market. (Now thats not to say they couldn't have accessed the game from other markets - but thats something that NOONE here knows the details on. Blizzard holds them cards and only they have / know the information. We can only speculate.)
hehe funny I like Age of Conan much more than I like WOW... The immersion Factor of Age of Conan is awesome. The world the way it looks the content that it does have is much better written. The music in AoC is better as well. WOW has more content for sure and not as many bugs, but Age of Conan has done a Superb job in crushing most of the bugs it has.
Don't a lot of chinese play on Taiwan servers anyway? I know there is that huge guild Stars that plays on those servers and they are from China.
I couldn't tell you. It's not information that I know or that you know. For all we know chinese players could be playing on the US servers. *shrug*
I do imagine someday in the future that World of Warcraft will end. But I don't see that happening anytime soon. Atleast not in the next year or two.
The only compatetion I see for World of Warcraft is SWTOR (something I fully plan to play) but even then I don't expect it to put any dent in WoW's population or even come remotely close to 1/7th the population WoW has.
WoW will easily reach the 10 year mark and most likely still have over 2million players then. the wife and I enjoyed it off and on for years. Other developers helped WoW stay on top by giving us nothing but junk the last few years. Personally I would love a DAoC 2 minus the botters.
I would go as far as to say its going to make the 10 year mark and maintain atleast 10 million subscriptions / players. The expansion this year will easily bring in more people / old people to the game that are new and/or have left the game.
The fact that the expansion will lower the point of entry into the game by having new quests that are on par with WoTLK will help bring in new people to the game.
If they can hold to there yearly plan for future expansions there is nothing to keep the game from maintaining / growing its player base. The warcraft universe is huge and new content can always be added to it. New worlds can easily be added to the game and even new dimensions could be added. I expect to see some form of housing / guild housing in the expansion after Cata. Cata is already planning to add a guild leveling / ranking system to the game and thats could easily be the basis for any type of guild housing system.
Some people complain about the graphics of WoW and to a point they have valid opinions on it. But I look at the graphics as a way for them to focus more on the story / content / polish. Anytime you can shift the focus of your game away from the graphics is a positive thing. Age of Conan showed that graphics alone do not make a great game. Most of AoC's development time was spent purely on making the graphics for the game. An example would be it could take a week to model and create a character for Age of Conan, where a character model for World of Warcraft could be completed in a day. (Thats just an example) (Everyone knows a low poly model is easier to model then spending hours on the finer details of a higher poly model.)
I don't for see World of Warcraft going anywhere anytime soon. Unless Blizzard shuts it down or makes a WoW 2.
As far as the population goes many people are neglecting the fact that World of Warcraft in China has / was put on hold for several months due to legal issues. The game was completely shut down and noone was allowed to tuch it there. China is / was a big growing point for World of Warcraft. Chinese gamers make up a huge market. Larger then the US and EU put togeather. The fact that they have retained 11 million + subscriptions / players is a huge feat for a game thats pushing 5 years old and had a large chunk of its players shutdown in a key market. (Now thats not to say they couldn't have accessed the game from other markets - but thats something that NOONE here knows the details on. Blizzard holds them cards and only they have / know the information. We can only speculate.)
hehe funny I like Age of Conan much more than I like WOW... The immersion Factor of Age of Conan is awesome. The world the way it looks the content that it does have is much better written. The music in AoC is better as well. WOW has more content for sure and not as many bugs, but Age of Conan has done a Superb job in crushing most of the bugs it has.
That is a good point. Immersion would be on AoC's side. But I doubt alot of game players.. Well let me rephrase that.. Most MMO players do not look for Immersion in there game. Otherwise why would they still be playing World of Warcraft and not AoC?
I don't doubt some people depend upon immersion in order to play a game. I myself do not. I play a game to have fun and meet new people. I make no illusions that its anything beyond just a game. My life isn't so boring that I must seek refuge in a game to make up for it. (Don't take it as a personal attack or anything. I get some people like to pretend they are actually in a game.. To each there own..)
Don't a lot of chinese play on Taiwan servers anyway? I know there is that huge guild Stars that plays on those servers and they are from China.
I couldn't tell you. It's not information that I know or that you know. For all we know chinese players could be playing on the US servers. *shrug*
I do imagine someday in the future that World of Warcraft will end. But I don't see that happening anytime soon. Atleast not in the next year or two.
The only compatetion I see for World of Warcraft is SWTOR (something I fully plan to play) but even then I don't expect it to put any dent in WoW's population or even come remotely close to 1/7th the population WoW has.
lol Im sure swtor will have its following but its just a guild wars except probably not free
SW:TOR will only compete with WoW with the gamer population. There is a lot, and I don't think that can be understated, of people who play WoW who never played any other mmo (or video games period) and who won't play another one. A lot of them play as a family as well. The guild I was in when I played comprised about 50% of these type of players. They won't go to SW or any other mmo. Also, unless something has changed in which I haven't read about, SW won't get the raiding population. I don't mean the casual raiders, I mean the hardcore competitive type players who raid. WoW is a raid game first and foremost, until a game comes along that appeals to those players they won't leave WoW either.
So really other mmo's won't get that demographic of people. That is also why WoW will continue to have a lot of subs as well.
...The decline of wow will not suddenly open the eyes of developers to what they are doing wrong.
No it won't, but they might actually then have the freedom to make something different. You know, get inspired and use their imaginations. That's a much improved design philosophy over obeying the higher ups and what they deem to be the right approach. Do you really not see how this game is influencing just about every mmo released, and why that's bad?
Perhaps you have not noticed this, but wow is just a variation on the everquest model. That is the model that has been dominating the mmo genre for 10 years now. Wow is just a continuation of what already existed an in no way is forcing anyone to do anything they do not want to do. In fact wow is the way it is due to the success of everquest as many other games have followed suit since the release of EQ.
Just because there are not many successful games that stray from the everquest model does not mean there have not been companies that do indeed try to make different games. Despite the constant claims around these forums, there have been a good number of games that have tried to do something different than EQ or WoW.
The reasons there are not more successful non-eq styles games are the same reasons there are not more games offering serious competition to wow right now. Until other developers stop repeating the same mistakes over and over again, nothing is going to change the market. Even the decline of wow.
...The decline of wow will not suddenly open the eyes of developers to what they are doing wrong.
No it won't, but they might actually then have the freedom to make something different. You know, get inspired and use their imaginations. That's a much improved design philosophy over obeying the higher ups and what they deem to be the right approach. Do you really not see how this game is influencing just about every mmo released, and why that's bad?
Perhaps you have not noticed this, but wow is just a variation on the everquest model. That is the model that has been dominating the mmo genre for 10 years now. Wow is just a continuation of what already existed an in no way is forcing anyone to do anything they do not want to do. In fact wow is the way it is due to the success of everquest as many other games have followed suit since the release of EQ.
Thanks for attempting to educate me, but I'm well aware of the history of MMOrpgs. WOW is the only game to hog such an insane amount of the market, that's why this game gets centered out. EQ's heyday was way before these games went mainstream, so it's mostly irrelevant in this discussion.
Just because there are not many successful games that stray from the everquest model does not mean there have not been companies that do indeed try to make different games. Despite the constant claims around these forums, there have been a good number of games that have tried to do something different than EQ or WoW.
Again Im aware of that, and I'm currently playing two of those games. They don't however have populations in the millions, which is why some of us are anxious to see WOW bow out. Even if the new crop of games don't reach the sub levels that WOW has enjoyed, it would be nice to see some of this population help fatten them up.
The reasons there are not more successful non-eq styles games are the same reasons there are not more games offering serious competition to wow right now. Until other developers stop repeating the same mistakes over and over again, nothing is going to change the market. Even the decline of wow.
I think you underestimate the real reasons people stay with WOW. People do not want to leave their WOW friends, and people that play WOW (for the most part) are unaware of other MMOrpgs. This combination is very powerful, and keeps a great many people playing. You have to understand that the huge majority of gamers never visit MMO sites let alone their game's own website. When WOW begins to fade many eyes will be open to new things. Hence new things can finally be developped for the masses.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
...The decline of wow will not suddenly open the eyes of developers to what they are doing wrong.
No it won't, but they might actually then have the freedom to make something different. You know, get inspired and use their imaginations. That's a much improved design philosophy over obeying the higher ups and what they deem to be the right approach. Do you really not see how this game is influencing just about every mmo released, and why that's bad?
Perhaps you have not noticed this, but wow is just a variation on the everquest model. That is the model that has been dominating the mmo genre for 10 years now. Wow is just a continuation of what already existed an in no way is forcing anyone to do anything they do not want to do. In fact wow is the way it is due to the success of everquest as many other games have followed suit since the release of EQ.
Thanks for attempting to educate me, but I'm well aware of the history of MMOrpgs. WOW is the only game to hog such an insane amount of the market, that's why this game gets centered out. EQ's heyday was way before these games went mainstream, so it's mostly irrelevant in this discussion.
Just because there are not many successful games that stray from the everquest model does not mean there have not been companies that do indeed try to make different games. Despite the constant claims around these forums, there have been a good number of games that have tried to do something different than EQ or WoW.
Again Im aware of that, and I'm currently playing two of those games. They don't however have populations in the millions, which is why some of us are anxious to see WOW bow out. Even if the new crop of games don't reach the sub levels that WOW has enjoyed, it would be nice to see some of this population help fatten them up.
The reasons there are not more successful non-eq styles games are the same reasons there are not more games offering serious competition to wow right now. Until other developers stop repeating the same mistakes over and over again, nothing is going to change the market. Even the decline of wow.
I think you underestimate the real reasons people stay with WOW. People do not want to leave their WOW friends, and people that play WOW (for the most part) are unaware of other MMOrpgs. This combination is very powerful, and keeps a great many people playing. You have to understand that the huge majority of gamers never visit MMO sites let alone their game's own website. When WOW begins to fade many eyes will be open to new things. Hence new things can finally be developped for the masses.
I think you put far to much emphasis on the population of wow and derive conclusions that are just as applicable to the industry prior to wow.
For example: people had no problem leaving their friends and high level characters in Ultima Online to join Everquest when it released. The same thing happened when people migrated from EQ to WoW when WoW released. Now unless you want to show that gamers today are genetically different in some way that makes them incapable of switching games, it is likely that when the next big thing comes out people will try and move to that game. The problem is that that next game has not come along yet.
Also, people are looking for a new game and they do try out other mmos. Just because other games are not swelling with hordes of people doesn't mean people don't know about them. Isn't it more likely that those games just have not measured up, especially when you look at their massive decline shortly after breaking huge sales records? Several games have released and gained more players faster than wow did in its first few months. Doesn't that alone tell you that people are looking at new games?
Honestly if wow lost 11 million players today it wouldn't create the mmo utopia that you think it would. That would not give companies the incentive to fix the problems they are suffering from right now. It would just encourage them to create more everquest style games to fill the void that wow has left. It would lower the bar to competition.
The sad fact is that most game developers just don't understand the basic reasons that made wow successful. Make sure the game is fun first and if it isn't fun, fix it until it is or remove it. Then don't release the game until it is ready to be released.
That right there sums up the overwhelming majority of problems with most mmos and is the result in why other games don't have millions of subscribers. The only reason wow dominates is because the quality is so far greater that the competition. Removing wow from the market won't suddenly make other developers step up their quality which is what they need to do.
I think you put far to much emphasis on the population of wow and derive conclusions that are just as applicable to the industry prior to wow.
For example: people had no problem leaving their friends and high level characters in Ultima Online to join Everquest when it released. The same thing happened when people migrated from EQ to WoW when WoW released. Now unless you want to show that gamers today are genetically different in some way that makes them incapable of switching games, it is likely that when the next big thing comes out people will try and move to that game. The problem is that that next game has not come along yet. Also, people are looking for a new game and they do try out other mmos. Just because other games are not swelling with hordes of people doesn't mean people don't know about them. Isn't it more likely that those games just have not measured up, especially when you look at their massive decline shortly after breaking huge sales records? Several games have released and gained more players faster than wow did in its first few months. Doesn't that alone tell you that people are looking at new games? Honestly if wow lost 11 million players today it wouldn't create the mmo utopia that you think it would. That would not give companies the incentive to fix the problems they are suffering from right now. It would just encourage them to create more everquest style games to fill the void that wow has left. It would lower the bar to competition.
The sad fact is that most game developers just don't understand the basic reasons that made wow successful. Make sure the game is fun first and if it isn't fun, fix it until it is or remove it. Then don't release the game until it is ready to be released. That right there sums up the overwhelming majority of problems with most mmos and is the result in why other games don't have millions of subscribers. The only reason wow dominates is because the quality is so far greater that the competition. Removing wow from the market won't suddenly make other developers step up their quality which is what they need to do.
I've just found from my personal experience that people are reluctant to leave this game much more than others. I always get the same thing...."Man I've got wayyyyy too many friends in WOW to leave at this point, what's that funny game your playing again?" or.... "There's other games like WOW?".
When WOW no longer has the crown, do you think that we will see a huge decline in the market for MMOrpgs? Because I believe that many people are going to be shocked at what's actually available to them as gaming options once the need for a new home arises. I also think that we're going to see a lot more creativity from a big company once WOW is no longer the flagship of the genre (I respect the fact that you disagree with this part). If I'm not mistaken isn't Blizzard planning a very different game themselves for their second MMO? Something with FPS aspects from what I've heard.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
WoW certainly won't be #1, or even exist, forever. However, the end of WoW will most likely be later, rather than sooner. Its not going away anytime soon. Couple the new expansion with the fact that the Chinese will finally be able to catch up to the rest of us pretty much ensures it will be the 500 pound gorilla of the mmo genre for some time to come.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
To stay on topic,did WOW ever grow at any point past release?last i played it was all quest to quest to quest to level nothing more than that.When you are done leveling hit raids,has WOW changed from day 1?
You know i first joined EQ2 because it came out a few weeks earlier,then instantly i had to try WOW when it came out.I was so unimpressed by WOW that i could not wait to get back to EQ2,at that time i figured WOW would have a VERY small following,i would have never guessed this many people would play that game.I guess the big difference was i was already a vet of MANY games,i had already seen it all,where as when WOW came out,99% of the player base was all brand new players.
I knew MANY people that when moved from single player console gaming to the MMO scene they were impressed with ANYTHING,so i can see how easily the WOW crowd was impressed by mediocrity.Heck i remember when i first played UO,it was like god sent to me,now i look back with much more knowledge and realize it was nothing special.
Will Warcraft [WOW] ever grow?No i highly doubt it,Blizzard made the mistake of copying EQ,it offers a one dimensional type of game play,that without revamping the entire game ,can never change.Also the game engine is VERY limited,and even IF Blizzard tried to up the tech,they would meet some criticism from low end machines,so they are stuck with their game,but no problem they have the followers willing to make them money.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
WoW certainly won't be #1, or even exist, forever. However, the end of WoW will most likely be later, rather than sooner. Its not going away anytime soon. Couple the new expansion with the fact that the Chinese will finally be able to catch up to the rest of us pretty much ensures it will be the 500 pound gorilla of the mmo genre for some time to come.
The funny thing about this game is even when it's been long dethroned and considered to be "dying", it's probably still going to have well over a million players if not more. That's the true beauty of being a WOW fan I guess, the bloody thing is going to take forever to disappear.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
You know i first joined EQ2 because it came out a few weeks earlier,then instantly i had to try WOW when it came out.I was so unimpressed by WOW that i could not wait to get back to EQ2,at that time i figured WOW would have a VERY small following,i would have never guessed this many people would play that game.I guess the big difference was i was already a vet of MANY games,i had already seen it all,where as when WOW came out,99% of the player base was all brand new players.
Well you are incorrect about your assumptions or just trying to display the usual "only real mmo players know what real mmos are".
Almost every single mmo that was currently on the market took a massive decline in population when wow released. I am willing to bet anything that there are more experienced mmo players who have played wow past and present than are in the next several mmos combined. Sure there are a lot of new players to the genre whos first experience was wow, but there are also a lot more experienced players in the game than many give credit for.
Even EQ2 took steep declines and was forced to merge servers within a year of release, because people were leaving to play wow. It is funny you call wow medicore and talk about wanting to get back to eq2 which has been working overtime to make itself like wow since release.
Originally posted by Cecropia I've just found from my personal experience that people are reluctant to leave this game much more than others. I always get the same thing...."Man I've got wayyyyy too many friends in WOW to leave at this point, what's that funny game your playing again?" or.... "There's other games like WOW?".
When WOW no longer has the crown, do you think that we will see a huge decline in the market for MMOrpgs? Because I believe that many people are going to be shocked at what's actually available to them as gaming options once the need for a new home arises. I also think that we're going to see a lot more creativity from a big company once WOW is no longer the flagship of the genre (I respect the fact that you disagree with this part). If I'm not mistaken isn't Blizzard planning a very different game themselves for their second MMO? Something with FPS aspects from what I've heard.
People are reluctant to leave, because there isn't a compelling reason to leave yet. That new shiny game that really offers some competition has not released yet like it did when EQ or WoW released. That is why year after year we keep reading the same stories of mmo players on their 4th, 5th, 6th.... trip back to wow even when they are so burned out they no longer really enjoy the game.
Even for people who know of every obscure mmo from around the globe, they still return. Removing wow will not suddenly make people enjoy other games more when they opt to not play them now. Nothing was stopping people from playing conan, eq2, warhammer, tabula rasa, lotro, champions, etc. The game boxes were right next to wow at best buy. People bought them and they left for obvious reasons. No one is going to be shocked at what is available. If they were so great, then more people would be playing it now.
How many millions of people have to not play these other mmos before we can accept that they just don't offer enough to compete and stop blaming people for not playing them as if they don't know they exist. How many games have to loose 800k players in a few months before we can admit that yes wow players do look at other mmos and no they are not some hidden secret of the genre that is being held back for any reason other than their lackluster condition.
I just don't think companies are incapable of doing anything simply because wow is the market leader. I think wow is the market leader as a direct result of gaming companies being incapable of delivering quality to the market and continuing to repeat the same mistakes year after year.
It isn't like it would be to hard to steal a sizable portion of wows playerbase. The conditions for that to happen have been ripe for years. Players simply are not going to flock to other mmos just because wow declines. Nothing is preventing that now, so unless there is a compelling reason to do so in the future....
Maybe companies will get the message that there are a lot of players who want something that doesn't resemble the everquest model if wow starts to die, because people are sick of the game. I don't think that will happen, because it is very likely most companies will just continue to evolve the same model that has dominated the market for the last 10 years. Unless some indi company really gets lucky with a revolutionary design we are most likely in store for more of the same for many years to come.
You jest about a WoW amusement park but I wouldn't be surprised if that happend. If they can make a PotC movie out of the themepark they can certainly do the opposite with WoW. The only difference between camp11111 and Zorn is that zorn used all of those underlines in his posts. Otherwise the style is identical.
How dare you.
These accusations are completely unexceptable.
I will not stand for the crap that's being said about my baby WOW.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Last year WOW made 1.2 Billion Dollars.
That equates to 60% of all MMO subscribers worldwide.
I was wondering the same thing too . Think we may have our answer though if he is indeed Camp . Apart from underscoring statements the style of the posts is identical . Theres only one reason he would start up a new account . Like the Hydra Zorndorf may have many heads cut one off and another grows anew .
Comments
They said "hovering", but I'm not taking that as the truth in any way. I take it as they have dipped below 11.5 million, and are merely saving face and subs. What else would/should they say if the population is actually in decline. Blizzard has a new baby in the oven that needs feeding dontcha know
1st quarter 2009: 314 million
4 quarter 2009: 329 million
Hard cash proof.
You are just trolling
Clearly you are missing the whole point entirely....still. This isn't about how much money they brought in this year, the last year, or whatever.
As someone else has pointed, you seem to be using "Zorndorf" logic here. You'll be able to play WOW for many years to come, but you're just going to have to accept the fact that it will not be king of the hill forever.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
So this is it then ?
A guy who is actually saying something decent about WOW is being hacked and slashed to pieces and confronted with one of the most hard WOW fan boys of all time.
I didn't even hear an answer to the China situation or the economic recession or the 14 months long period between an expansion. Nope let's tackle the man without giving arguments.
I only see a voluntary way to "kill the WOW" game and insult guys who reckon the game has staying power without doubt.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
I don't think it's the fact that you are "defending" WoW, it's the way you are doing it.
How dare you.
These accusations are completely unexceptable.
I will not stand for the crap that's being said about my baby WOW.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Last year WOW made 1.2 Billion Dollars.
That equates to 60% of all MMO subscribers worldwide.
Take that!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That was my best impression
Where is Zorn these days anyways, he was awesome?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
WoW will easily reach the 10 year mark and most likely still have over 2million players then. the wife and I enjoyed it off and on for years. Other developers helped WoW stay on top by giving us nothing but junk the last few years. Personally I would love a DAoC 2 minus the botters.
Then why don't they answer the following questions:
- the China situation. That game was off for months over there.
- the economic recession and its result on the video game activity (decline)
- the fact that 14 months have passed since the last expansion.
Why no answers and complain about people (and even insult me with comparing me to Zorn) who point to these situations, that actually make sense...
Why always the same thread about Blizzard lying when everyone can see the financial balances the game makes.
WHY ? Does that help your mmorpg ?
Or is it to fulfill the ultimate challenge?
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Camp, I won't get into those questions about economics because they aren't really my thing (honestly I don't care about it, I'd rather comment on the actual games rather than the commercial success of a game). You'd have to ask them about it. I never really had an issue with Zorndorf other than his tendency to present opinions as facts.
I would go as far as to say its going to make the 10 year mark and maintain atleast 10 million subscriptions / players. The expansion this year will easily bring in more people / old people to the game that are new and/or have left the game.
The fact that the expansion will lower the point of entry into the game by having new quests that are on par with WoTLK will help bring in new people to the game.
If they can hold to there yearly plan for future expansions there is nothing to keep the game from maintaining / growing its player base. The warcraft universe is huge and new content can always be added to it. New worlds can easily be added to the game and even new dimensions could be added. I expect to see some form of housing / guild housing in the expansion after Cata. Cata is already planning to add a guild leveling / ranking system to the game and thats could easily be the basis for any type of guild housing system.
Some people complain about the graphics of WoW and to a point they have valid opinions on it. But I look at the graphics as a way for them to focus more on the story / content / polish. Anytime you can shift the focus of your game away from the graphics is a positive thing. Age of Conan showed that graphics alone do not make a great game. Most of AoC's development time was spent purely on making the graphics for the game. An example would be it could take a week to model and create a character for Age of Conan, where a character model for World of Warcraft could be completed in a day. (Thats just an example) (Everyone knows a low poly model is easier to model then spending hours on the finer details of a higher poly model.)
I don't for see World of Warcraft going anywhere anytime soon. Unless Blizzard shuts it down or makes a WoW 2.
As far as the population goes many people are neglecting the fact that World of Warcraft in China has / was put on hold for several months due to legal issues. The game was completely shut down and noone was allowed to tuch it there. China is / was a big growing point for World of Warcraft. Chinese gamers make up a huge market. Larger then the US and EU put togeather. The fact that they have retained 11 million + subscriptions / players is a huge feat for a game thats pushing 5 years old and had a large chunk of its players shutdown in a key market. (Now thats not to say they couldn't have accessed the game from other markets - but thats something that NOONE here knows the details on. Blizzard holds them cards and only they have / know the information. We can only speculate.)
Don't a lot of chinese play on Taiwan servers anyway? I know there is that huge guild Stars that plays on those servers and they are from China.
I would go as far as to say its going to make the 10 year mark and maintain atleast 10 million subscriptions / players. The expansion this year will easily bring in more people / old people to the game that are new and/or have left the game.
The fact that the expansion will lower the point of entry into the game by having new quests that are on par with WoTLK will help bring in new people to the game.
If they can hold to there yearly plan for future expansions there is nothing to keep the game from maintaining / growing its player base. The warcraft universe is huge and new content can always be added to it. New worlds can easily be added to the game and even new dimensions could be added. I expect to see some form of housing / guild housing in the expansion after Cata. Cata is already planning to add a guild leveling / ranking system to the game and thats could easily be the basis for any type of guild housing system.
Some people complain about the graphics of WoW and to a point they have valid opinions on it. But I look at the graphics as a way for them to focus more on the story / content / polish. Anytime you can shift the focus of your game away from the graphics is a positive thing. Age of Conan showed that graphics alone do not make a great game. Most of AoC's development time was spent purely on making the graphics for the game. An example would be it could take a week to model and create a character for Age of Conan, where a character model for World of Warcraft could be completed in a day. (Thats just an example) (Everyone knows a low poly model is easier to model then spending hours on the finer details of a higher poly model.)
I don't for see World of Warcraft going anywhere anytime soon. Unless Blizzard shuts it down or makes a WoW 2.
As far as the population goes many people are neglecting the fact that World of Warcraft in China has / was put on hold for several months due to legal issues. The game was completely shut down and noone was allowed to tuch it there. China is / was a big growing point for World of Warcraft. Chinese gamers make up a huge market. Larger then the US and EU put togeather. The fact that they have retained 11 million + subscriptions / players is a huge feat for a game thats pushing 5 years old and had a large chunk of its players shutdown in a key market. (Now thats not to say they couldn't have accessed the game from other markets - but thats something that NOONE here knows the details on. Blizzard holds them cards and only they have / know the information. We can only speculate.)
hehe funny I like Age of Conan much more than I like WOW... The immersion Factor of Age of Conan is awesome. The world the way it looks the content that it does have is much better written. The music in AoC is better as well. WOW has more content for sure and not as many bugs, but Age of Conan has done a Superb job in crushing most of the bugs it has.
I couldn't tell you. It's not information that I know or that you know. For all we know chinese players could be playing on the US servers. *shrug*
I do imagine someday in the future that World of Warcraft will end. But I don't see that happening anytime soon. Atleast not in the next year or two.
The only compatetion I see for World of Warcraft is SWTOR (something I fully plan to play) but even then I don't expect it to put any dent in WoW's population or even come remotely close to 1/7th the population WoW has.
I would go as far as to say its going to make the 10 year mark and maintain atleast 10 million subscriptions / players. The expansion this year will easily bring in more people / old people to the game that are new and/or have left the game.
The fact that the expansion will lower the point of entry into the game by having new quests that are on par with WoTLK will help bring in new people to the game.
If they can hold to there yearly plan for future expansions there is nothing to keep the game from maintaining / growing its player base. The warcraft universe is huge and new content can always be added to it. New worlds can easily be added to the game and even new dimensions could be added. I expect to see some form of housing / guild housing in the expansion after Cata. Cata is already planning to add a guild leveling / ranking system to the game and thats could easily be the basis for any type of guild housing system.
Some people complain about the graphics of WoW and to a point they have valid opinions on it. But I look at the graphics as a way for them to focus more on the story / content / polish. Anytime you can shift the focus of your game away from the graphics is a positive thing. Age of Conan showed that graphics alone do not make a great game. Most of AoC's development time was spent purely on making the graphics for the game. An example would be it could take a week to model and create a character for Age of Conan, where a character model for World of Warcraft could be completed in a day. (Thats just an example) (Everyone knows a low poly model is easier to model then spending hours on the finer details of a higher poly model.)
I don't for see World of Warcraft going anywhere anytime soon. Unless Blizzard shuts it down or makes a WoW 2.
As far as the population goes many people are neglecting the fact that World of Warcraft in China has / was put on hold for several months due to legal issues. The game was completely shut down and noone was allowed to tuch it there. China is / was a big growing point for World of Warcraft. Chinese gamers make up a huge market. Larger then the US and EU put togeather. The fact that they have retained 11 million + subscriptions / players is a huge feat for a game thats pushing 5 years old and had a large chunk of its players shutdown in a key market. (Now thats not to say they couldn't have accessed the game from other markets - but thats something that NOONE here knows the details on. Blizzard holds them cards and only they have / know the information. We can only speculate.)
hehe funny I like Age of Conan much more than I like WOW... The immersion Factor of Age of Conan is awesome. The world the way it looks the content that it does have is much better written. The music in AoC is better as well. WOW has more content for sure and not as many bugs, but Age of Conan has done a Superb job in crushing most of the bugs it has.
That is a good point. Immersion would be on AoC's side. But I doubt alot of game players.. Well let me rephrase that.. Most MMO players do not look for Immersion in there game. Otherwise why would they still be playing World of Warcraft and not AoC?
I don't doubt some people depend upon immersion in order to play a game. I myself do not. I play a game to have fun and meet new people. I make no illusions that its anything beyond just a game. My life isn't so boring that I must seek refuge in a game to make up for it. (Don't take it as a personal attack or anything. I get some people like to pretend they are actually in a game.. To each there own..)
I couldn't tell you. It's not information that I know or that you know. For all we know chinese players could be playing on the US servers. *shrug*
I do imagine someday in the future that World of Warcraft will end. But I don't see that happening anytime soon. Atleast not in the next year or two.
The only compatetion I see for World of Warcraft is SWTOR (something I fully plan to play) but even then I don't expect it to put any dent in WoW's population or even come remotely close to 1/7th the population WoW has.
lol Im sure swtor will have its following but its just a guild wars except probably not free
SW:TOR will only compete with WoW with the gamer population. There is a lot, and I don't think that can be understated, of people who play WoW who never played any other mmo (or video games period) and who won't play another one. A lot of them play as a family as well. The guild I was in when I played comprised about 50% of these type of players. They won't go to SW or any other mmo. Also, unless something has changed in which I haven't read about, SW won't get the raiding population. I don't mean the casual raiders, I mean the hardcore competitive type players who raid. WoW is a raid game first and foremost, until a game comes along that appeals to those players they won't leave WoW either.
So really other mmo's won't get that demographic of people. That is also why WoW will continue to have a lot of subs as well.
No it won't, but they might actually then have the freedom to make something different. You know, get inspired and use their imaginations. That's a much improved design philosophy over obeying the higher ups and what they deem to be the right approach. Do you really not see how this game is influencing just about every mmo released, and why that's bad?
Perhaps you have not noticed this, but wow is just a variation on the everquest model. That is the model that has been dominating the mmo genre for 10 years now. Wow is just a continuation of what already existed an in no way is forcing anyone to do anything they do not want to do. In fact wow is the way it is due to the success of everquest as many other games have followed suit since the release of EQ.
Just because there are not many successful games that stray from the everquest model does not mean there have not been companies that do indeed try to make different games. Despite the constant claims around these forums, there have been a good number of games that have tried to do something different than EQ or WoW.
The reasons there are not more successful non-eq styles games are the same reasons there are not more games offering serious competition to wow right now. Until other developers stop repeating the same mistakes over and over again, nothing is going to change the market. Even the decline of wow.
No it won't, but they might actually then have the freedom to make something different. You know, get inspired and use their imaginations. That's a much improved design philosophy over obeying the higher ups and what they deem to be the right approach. Do you really not see how this game is influencing just about every mmo released, and why that's bad?
Perhaps you have not noticed this, but wow is just a variation on the everquest model. That is the model that has been dominating the mmo genre for 10 years now. Wow is just a continuation of what already existed an in no way is forcing anyone to do anything they do not want to do. In fact wow is the way it is due to the success of everquest as many other games have followed suit since the release of EQ.
Thanks for attempting to educate me, but I'm well aware of the history of MMOrpgs. WOW is the only game to hog such an insane amount of the market, that's why this game gets centered out. EQ's heyday was way before these games went mainstream, so it's mostly irrelevant in this discussion.
Just because there are not many successful games that stray from the everquest model does not mean there have not been companies that do indeed try to make different games. Despite the constant claims around these forums, there have been a good number of games that have tried to do something different than EQ or WoW.
Again Im aware of that, and I'm currently playing two of those games. They don't however have populations in the millions, which is why some of us are anxious to see WOW bow out. Even if the new crop of games don't reach the sub levels that WOW has enjoyed, it would be nice to see some of this population help fatten them up.
The reasons there are not more successful non-eq styles games are the same reasons there are not more games offering serious competition to wow right now. Until other developers stop repeating the same mistakes over and over again, nothing is going to change the market. Even the decline of wow.
I think you underestimate the real reasons people stay with WOW. People do not want to leave their WOW friends, and people that play WOW (for the most part) are unaware of other MMOrpgs. This combination is very powerful, and keeps a great many people playing. You have to understand that the huge majority of gamers never visit MMO sites let alone their game's own website. When WOW begins to fade many eyes will be open to new things. Hence new things can finally be developped for the masses.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
No it won't, but they might actually then have the freedom to make something different. You know, get inspired and use their imaginations. That's a much improved design philosophy over obeying the higher ups and what they deem to be the right approach. Do you really not see how this game is influencing just about every mmo released, and why that's bad?
Perhaps you have not noticed this, but wow is just a variation on the everquest model. That is the model that has been dominating the mmo genre for 10 years now. Wow is just a continuation of what already existed an in no way is forcing anyone to do anything they do not want to do. In fact wow is the way it is due to the success of everquest as many other games have followed suit since the release of EQ.
Thanks for attempting to educate me, but I'm well aware of the history of MMOrpgs. WOW is the only game to hog such an insane amount of the market, that's why this game gets centered out. EQ's heyday was way before these games went mainstream, so it's mostly irrelevant in this discussion.
Just because there are not many successful games that stray from the everquest model does not mean there have not been companies that do indeed try to make different games. Despite the constant claims around these forums, there have been a good number of games that have tried to do something different than EQ or WoW.
Again Im aware of that, and I'm currently playing two of those games. They don't however have populations in the millions, which is why some of us are anxious to see WOW bow out. Even if the new crop of games don't reach the sub levels that WOW has enjoyed, it would be nice to see some of this population help fatten them up.
The reasons there are not more successful non-eq styles games are the same reasons there are not more games offering serious competition to wow right now. Until other developers stop repeating the same mistakes over and over again, nothing is going to change the market. Even the decline of wow.
I think you underestimate the real reasons people stay with WOW. People do not want to leave their WOW friends, and people that play WOW (for the most part) are unaware of other MMOrpgs. This combination is very powerful, and keeps a great many people playing. You have to understand that the huge majority of gamers never visit MMO sites let alone their game's own website. When WOW begins to fade many eyes will be open to new things. Hence new things can finally be developped for the masses.
I think you put far to much emphasis on the population of wow and derive conclusions that are just as applicable to the industry prior to wow.
For example: people had no problem leaving their friends and high level characters in Ultima Online to join Everquest when it released. The same thing happened when people migrated from EQ to WoW when WoW released. Now unless you want to show that gamers today are genetically different in some way that makes them incapable of switching games, it is likely that when the next big thing comes out people will try and move to that game. The problem is that that next game has not come along yet.
Also, people are looking for a new game and they do try out other mmos. Just because other games are not swelling with hordes of people doesn't mean people don't know about them. Isn't it more likely that those games just have not measured up, especially when you look at their massive decline shortly after breaking huge sales records? Several games have released and gained more players faster than wow did in its first few months. Doesn't that alone tell you that people are looking at new games?
Honestly if wow lost 11 million players today it wouldn't create the mmo utopia that you think it would. That would not give companies the incentive to fix the problems they are suffering from right now. It would just encourage them to create more everquest style games to fill the void that wow has left. It would lower the bar to competition.
The sad fact is that most game developers just don't understand the basic reasons that made wow successful. Make sure the game is fun first and if it isn't fun, fix it until it is or remove it. Then don't release the game until it is ready to be released.
That right there sums up the overwhelming majority of problems with most mmos and is the result in why other games don't have millions of subscribers. The only reason wow dominates is because the quality is so far greater that the competition. Removing wow from the market won't suddenly make other developers step up their quality which is what they need to do.
I've just found from my personal experience that people are reluctant to leave this game much more than others. I always get the same thing...."Man I've got wayyyyy too many friends in WOW to leave at this point, what's that funny game your playing again?" or.... "There's other games like WOW?".
When WOW no longer has the crown, do you think that we will see a huge decline in the market for MMOrpgs? Because I believe that many people are going to be shocked at what's actually available to them as gaming options once the need for a new home arises. I also think that we're going to see a lot more creativity from a big company once WOW is no longer the flagship of the genre (I respect the fact that you disagree with this part). If I'm not mistaken isn't Blizzard planning a very different game themselves for their second MMO? Something with FPS aspects from what I've heard.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
WoW certainly won't be #1, or even exist, forever. However, the end of WoW will most likely be later, rather than sooner. Its not going away anytime soon. Couple the new expansion with the fact that the Chinese will finally be able to catch up to the rest of us pretty much ensures it will be the 500 pound gorilla of the mmo genre for some time to come.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
To stay on topic,did WOW ever grow at any point past release?last i played it was all quest to quest to quest to level nothing more than that.When you are done leveling hit raids,has WOW changed from day 1?
You know i first joined EQ2 because it came out a few weeks earlier,then instantly i had to try WOW when it came out.I was so unimpressed by WOW that i could not wait to get back to EQ2,at that time i figured WOW would have a VERY small following,i would have never guessed this many people would play that game.I guess the big difference was i was already a vet of MANY games,i had already seen it all,where as when WOW came out,99% of the player base was all brand new players.
I knew MANY people that when moved from single player console gaming to the MMO scene they were impressed with ANYTHING,so i can see how easily the WOW crowd was impressed by mediocrity.Heck i remember when i first played UO,it was like god sent to me,now i look back with much more knowledge and realize it was nothing special.
Will Warcraft [WOW] ever grow?No i highly doubt it,Blizzard made the mistake of copying EQ,it offers a one dimensional type of game play,that without revamping the entire game ,can never change.Also the game engine is VERY limited,and even IF Blizzard tried to up the tech,they would meet some criticism from low end machines,so they are stuck with their game,but no problem they have the followers willing to make them money.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The funny thing about this game is even when it's been long dethroned and considered to be "dying", it's probably still going to have well over a million players if not more. That's the true beauty of being a WOW fan I guess, the bloody thing is going to take forever to disappear.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Well you are incorrect about your assumptions or just trying to display the usual "only real mmo players know what real mmos are".
Almost every single mmo that was currently on the market took a massive decline in population when wow released. I am willing to bet anything that there are more experienced mmo players who have played wow past and present than are in the next several mmos combined. Sure there are a lot of new players to the genre whos first experience was wow, but there are also a lot more experienced players in the game than many give credit for.
Even EQ2 took steep declines and was forced to merge servers within a year of release, because people were leaving to play wow. It is funny you call wow medicore and talk about wanting to get back to eq2 which has been working overtime to make itself like wow since release.
People are reluctant to leave, because there isn't a compelling reason to leave yet. That new shiny game that really offers some competition has not released yet like it did when EQ or WoW released. That is why year after year we keep reading the same stories of mmo players on their 4th, 5th, 6th.... trip back to wow even when they are so burned out they no longer really enjoy the game.
Even for people who know of every obscure mmo from around the globe, they still return. Removing wow will not suddenly make people enjoy other games more when they opt to not play them now. Nothing was stopping people from playing conan, eq2, warhammer, tabula rasa, lotro, champions, etc. The game boxes were right next to wow at best buy. People bought them and they left for obvious reasons. No one is going to be shocked at what is available. If they were so great, then more people would be playing it now.
How many millions of people have to not play these other mmos before we can accept that they just don't offer enough to compete and stop blaming people for not playing them as if they don't know they exist. How many games have to loose 800k players in a few months before we can admit that yes wow players do look at other mmos and no they are not some hidden secret of the genre that is being held back for any reason other than their lackluster condition.
I just don't think companies are incapable of doing anything simply because wow is the market leader. I think wow is the market leader as a direct result of gaming companies being incapable of delivering quality to the market and continuing to repeat the same mistakes year after year.
It isn't like it would be to hard to steal a sizable portion of wows playerbase. The conditions for that to happen have been ripe for years. Players simply are not going to flock to other mmos just because wow declines. Nothing is preventing that now, so unless there is a compelling reason to do so in the future....
Maybe companies will get the message that there are a lot of players who want something that doesn't resemble the everquest model if wow starts to die, because people are sick of the game. I don't think that will happen, because it is very likely most companies will just continue to evolve the same model that has dominated the market for the last 10 years. Unless some indi company really gets lucky with a revolutionary design we are most likely in store for more of the same for many years to come.
People are reluctant to leave, because there isn't a compelling reason to leave yet.
^ This. Thread over.
How dare you.
These accusations are completely unexceptable.
I will not stand for the crap that's being said about my baby WOW.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Last year WOW made 1.2 Billion Dollars.
That equates to 60% of all MMO subscribers worldwide.
Take that!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That was my best impression
Where is Zorn these days anyways, he was awesome?
I was wondering the same thing too . Think we may have our answer though if he is indeed Camp . Apart from underscoring statements the style of the posts is identical . Theres only one reason he would start up a new account . Like the Hydra Zorndorf may have many heads cut one off and another grows anew .