Don't worry as you can see from past sandbox mmos they tend to not be very high in population and I agree with you it would ruin a bit of the view of the game. That's why I can't see how darkfall with heavy populations would be enjoyable if everytime you go outside a camp there would be 5 groups of 5-10 people waiting to gank others. Or when you are in the sea were it would lose a bit of greatness if everywere you looked there were ships.
Darkfall is a huge world so it can handle heavy populations. Think WOW x 6 in land mass. I've been griefed 1 time in the last 2 weeks and that was because I was mining somewhere I shouldnt have been while I was making coffee.
Everyone blows the FFA sandbox PVP MMO way out of proportion like there are people waiting around every corner waiting to kill ya.
That's because atm darkfall doesn't have let say 1 million players playing (To not exagerate) else you would be ganked more frequently.
Sandbox games specially the ones now work better with not so big population else everywere you looked there would be people either mining, ganking squads and more ganking squads, naval battles would be a mess if everywere in the sea there would be ships everywere.
Dunno if you get what I meant but imo sandbox are fine with their low population till they get enough profit.
Darkfall servers dont support 1 milllion people. They can support up to 40-50k then they would have to open another server.
You have a sorely negative outlook. If you make the land big enough, you don't have as much of a crowding issue. Also, adding depth and complexity to the game is a great way to ward off immature players. I think if done right any MMO can be successful. An open sandbox is very viable. However, you can't think they will take Oblivion and port it to be multiplayer because then you would be spot on right in how bad it could become. I say give them a little credit and wait for some info before busting out the fire and brimstone.
I didn't want to be negative but my post turned into a rant on its own.
I love this IP and don't want a mmo installment to tarnish it.
Being completely honest I only see a mmo using the TES ip working if its strictly Pve focused around solo and Small scale Co-op play.
I'm sorry I just don't see it working with pvp, most certainly not ffa full loot pvp.
But elderscroll series is perfect for pvp bandits attack you on your journeys or murders try kill you or guards chasing you try put you in prison becouse you killed a npc and elderscroll worlds where always very hostile so PVP should included.
I see ELDERSCROLL MMO only working if its an sandbox with free for all pvp and no instance.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I know it's probably been said already and I share your concerns OP, but we don't know if it will be full loot yet. Honestly if they can come up with a in-depth quest system and sandbox hybrid, I'd be sold. But, there's just too much we don't know yet.
It just can't be.
They have to capitalize on their fanbase. I find it very hard to believe that they are going to take their fans who are used to a more solo experience that revolves around them and then allow them to be looted. Especially when their games are just that: solo pve oriented affairs.
My thought is that any game that is going to mmo form is going to spring for the dna of the original game.
They most likely will have pvp as many mmo's have pvp in some form but it's not going to be ffa nor will it be like eve which as someone else mentioned will nicely segregate the population.
In any case that is my thought and I bet dollars to donuts it's correct.
I hope you're right. Though if you consider your reasoning that most single player games that go to MMO form (which can only be like a small handful of games) it could be very possible for an Elder Scrolls MMO to be free for all and full loot. Consider this:
1) In the Elder Scrolls games, you have the ability to steal and the ability to loot everything off of dead players
2) There have never been any other players to deal with and I can only assume there will be PvP.
So the question is, how else will they do all this? I believe if they do a good enough job I will play the game no matter what, but it could be very likely that we will see full loot and free for all PvP. And as much as I despise the people that turn these sorts of games into First Person Shooters with loot, I can't help, but think Free For All is the way they're going to go.
But elderscroll series is perfect for pvp bandits attack you on your journeys or murders try kill you or guards chasing you try put you in prison becouse you killed a npc and elderscroll worlds where always very hostile so PVP should included. I see ELDERSCROLL MMO only working if its an sandbox with free for all pvp and no instance.
In all games there are bandits and people wanting to kill you. Heck you could apply your criteria to many games.
I could turn it around and say that elderscrolls would be perfect for a completely pve game as you can have npc bandits atta you on your journeys or npc guards chasing you.
Any game can be imagined as either pve or pvp. Whether or not it fits the demographic they are going for will determine what it is.
So look at the elderscrolls demographic. If they are the type of people who would all go for free for all pvp then you will be right. if not then some people will be dissapointed.
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You have a sorely negative outlook. If you make the land big enough, you don't have as much of a crowding issue. Also, adding depth and complexity to the game is a great way to ward off immature players. I think if done right any MMO can be successful. An open sandbox is very viable. However, you can't think they will take Oblivion and port it to be multiplayer because then you would be spot on right in how bad it could become. I say give them a little credit and wait for some info before busting out the fire and brimstone.
I didn't want to be negative but my post turned into a rant on its own.
I love this IP and don't want a mmo installment to tarnish it.
Being completely honest I only see a mmo using the TES ip working if its strictly Pve focused around solo and Small scale Co-op play.
I'm sorry I just don't see it working with pvp, most certainly not ffa full loot pvp.
But elderscroll series is perfect for pvp bandits attack you on your journeys or murders try kill you or guards chasing you try put you in prison becouse you killed a npc and elderscroll worlds where always very hostile so PVP should included.
I see ELDERSCROLL MMO only working if its an sandbox with free for all pvp and no instance.
You know you mention an interesting point. Guards putting players in prison? How cool would that be? I think it would be amazing to play a game that put you in prison as a punishment. Not only that, but have it possible for you to break out or have your friends storm the prison and get you out. That would be amazing.
I know it's probably been said already and I share your concerns OP, but we don't know if it will be full loot yet. Honestly if they can come up with a in-depth quest system and sandbox hybrid, I'd be sold. But, there's just too much we don't know yet.
It just can't be.
They have to capitalize on their fanbase. I find it very hard to believe that they are going to take their fans who are used to a more solo experience that revolves around them and then allow them to be looted. Especially when their games are just that: solo pve oriented affairs.
My thought is that any game that is going to mmo form is going to spring for the dna of the original game.
They most likely will have pvp as many mmo's have pvp in some form but it's not going to be ffa nor will it be like eve which as someone else mentioned will nicely segregate the population.
In any case that is my thought and I bet dollars to donuts it's correct.
I hope you're right. Though if you consider your reasoning that most single player games that go to MMO form (which can only be like a small handful of games) it could be very possible for an Elder Scrolls MMO to be free for all and full loot. Consider this:
1) In the Elder Scrolls games, you have the ability to steal and the ability to loot everything off of dead players
2) There have never been any other players to deal with and I can only assume there will be PvP.
So the question is, how else will they do all this? I believe if they do a good enough job I will play the game no matter what, but it could be very likely that we will see full loot and free for all PvP. And as much as I despise the people that turn these sorts of games into First Person Shooters with loot, I can't help, but think Free For All is the way they're going to go.
As I said to Evasia, any game can be imagined as a pvp game if it has armed conflict.
So in the above example you would just be stealing from npc's.
OR you can imagine Elder Scrolls as a full pvp/looting game as Evasia and others have mentioned. But you really have to look to the fan base. If indeed the Elder Scrolls fanbase would be open to a full loot full pvp game then there it is.
But my sense is that they will not. Especially since a great deal of them have always bristled at making the Elder Scrolls games an mmo.
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I don't understand what's with all the posts lately saying that RPG devs moving into the MMO field will fail. Why is everyone assuming they will clone one of their current games and just slap an MMO tag on it?
How is WoW like the original Warcraft games? The look and the setting might be the same and they may have carried over features that were iconic to the series but in terms of general gameplay it's totally different. So why will the TES MMO be any different? (Or TOR for that matter, I saw a similar post to this about Bioware the other day).
I expect we'll see a similar skill system, similar open world and similar first person perspective but other than that expect to see an entirely new game. To be honest, in order for most of the features of the TES series to actually translate directly into an MMO, like dungeon crawling and breaking into houses, there would have to be a heavy amount of instancing, something that would turn an MMO into just Oblivion Online - we don't want that! The only option is to change things up so they work in an MMO setting; make dungeons bigger and more complex with respawning enemies and suddenly it will work well for an open dungeon. It's not hard to think up ways they can alter the trademark features of the series to suit an open-world MMO thriving with players.
An Elder Scrolls MMO would not be Oblivion Online, because that would indeed, as the OP says, not work. For it to be successful they must only base it on the series, drawing on the lore and features that made their previous work great and adapting them to an MMO setting.
Why would anyone assume that there will be pvp, and yet at the same time be thinking that pvp wouldnt work in elder scrolls? There has been no hint that that is the direction they are going so its all in your own assumption. If there was a problem with a pvp elder scrolls dont you think the developers would know it before you?
Imo it is highly unlikely that there will be any pvp at all. But assuming there will be then assuming it wouldnt work is just a non-functional logic.
Funny watching people argue over what is subjective.
Reminds me of a thread on the old Warcraft III boards in respects to the development of WoW and how it would..."ruin the IP" lol yeah it sure ruined it.
We should nickname the OP "Little Chicken"... In terms of the old story about the sky falling, not in terms he's a chicken that can't play a pvp game.
Like the OP was thinking how a TES sandbox might be ruined by the PKers and griefers.
But thinking about it, I believe that Bethesda cannot afford to make a full sandbox MMO.
Bethesda makes games for the masses, therefore they will try to appeal some of the themepark players in order to widen their player base.
I believe Bethesda will set on a semi-sandbox game
What will be sandbox is the world, which will be seamless and will allow total freedom.
The crafting and Trading will be sandbox too.
But the PvE and PvP will be more "guided" in order to avoid people rage quitting.
And forget bout full loot..................it ain't going to happen
I think you nailed it. If they did it that way it gives them a chance of getting more long term subscribers. I don't think ffapvp with full loot would work. It could work if people were actually decent but lets face it the vast majority of people you meet are more then likely casualties of puberty. I did not have much of a problem with the ffa in UO because after awhile you knew who the jerks were. If they wanted to use ffa between factions that might work and they have to put a hardcap on the number of accounts per server and 1 toon per account per server.
Why would anyone assume that there will be pvp, and yet at the same time be thinking that pvp wouldnt work in elder scrolls? There has been no hint that that is the direction they are going so its all in your own assumption. If there was a problem with a pvp elder scrolls dont you think the developers would know it before you? Imo it is highly unlikely that there will be any pvp at all. But assuming there will be then assuming it wouldnt work is just a non-functional logic.
Elder scrolls about freedom,by default freedom gives you the ability to kill other players.Elder scrolls with murdering and stealing does not make sense.There has always been consequence for your actions in elder scrolls.Bethesada just needs to make consequence for murder and stealing hurt.I will be shocked if their is not pvp the only question is will consequence be enough to slow down idiots
FFA PVP would work if there were consequences for your actions. Kill to many people and you can not go to towns, use vendors, trainers, etc. Getting the balance of animosity from NPC's and actions of characters would be difficult, but would make being a complete griefer a pain in the but if it made leveling and surviving in the world 10x harder. Even player cities able to set standing for people like EVE does so player guards attack or vendors will not sell to would help to make the decision to grief a difficult play style.
I think the OP makes the mistake of thinking that turning anything into a MMO doesn't completely ruin every aspect of what made the original good anyway. Oh, a Dragon Ball Z MMO? It's just you running around, hitting auto-attack, and pressing the relevant numbers on the keyboard at various times, except it's slightly Dragon Ball Z themed. It's not like you get to experience any of what made Dragon Ball Z what it was.
Oh, a vampire MMO? It's just you running around, hitting auto-attack, and pressing the relevant numbers on the keyboard at various times, except the game tells you your character is a vampire. It's not like you get to experience any of what makes being a vampire seem cool.
Oh, an Elder Scrolls MMO? It might have some of the Elder Scrolls lore, but that's about it. You're still just going to be running around predetermined groupings of monsters, killing them by hitting autoattack and using some skills, and then repeating that. It's not like what you do will affect the world in any way.
I think the OP makes the mistake of thinking that turning anything into a MMO doesn't completely ruin every aspect of what made the original good anyway. Oh, a Dragon Ball Z MMO? It's just you running around, hitting auto-attack, and pressing the relevant numbers on the keyboard at various times, except it's slightly Dragon Ball Z themed. It's not like you get to experience any of what made Dragon Ball Z what it was. Oh, a vampire MMO? It's just you running around, hitting auto-attack, and pressing the relevant numbers on the keyboard at various times, except the game tells you your character is a vampire. It's not like you get to experience any of what makes being a vampire seem cool. Oh, an Elder Scrolls MMO? It might have some of the Elder Scrolls lore, but that's about it. You're still just going to be running around predetermined groupings of monsters, killing them by hitting autoattack and using some skills, and then repeating that. It's not like what you do will affect the world in any way.
Nah an elder scrolls mmo would be set in an elder scrolls world with as much lore as they can script in. It will also likely be free-form character creation or as close as they feel they can get away with in an mmo.
The point you make about it being you just hitting keys on the keyboard is irrelevant to it being an mmo since the same logic applies to single player games.
Whats questionable I guess is whether they can make a world as complex as oblivion an mmo without making it a lagfest. Dumbing down the city designs would really hurt, imo. Lag is the eternal enemy of mmo.
The majority of the players I have grown old with (30+ here) from playing most MMOs got bored with just pve before our first experience. The ones left that still play want a mix of PvE and PvP with some FFA looted system. I am sure there are some that will never want pvp but I personally feel that after you have player MMOs for over 10 years that will be the vast minority. One day you will be there in about 5-15 years. I hope so. I'm getting tired of blowing up newbs in Eve.
As long as I am not in a ship I will be happy .
I completely disagree. Most players will not go on to more pvp oriented games. Certainly not the average player.
Well that has been my experience with all of the people I have played with.
They either stop playing all together. Or moved into pvp based games.
So, we will have to just disagree. I am fine with that.
My thought on that point is that we just know different types of people.
However, if you want to look at it logically, these games have been around a bit longer than 10 years which means that there would be a LOT of people who would be hankering for a fuller pvp experience yet most games shy away from that type of experience. There aren't a lot of ffa pvp games out and most games tend to either minimize pvp or segragate it so that people don't have to deal with it if they want but can find it if they desire.
Name one that has been from a large developer, marketed heavily, and done right (which is hard).
It says something when small developers, not exactly doing things right, that barely market are having success.
There hasn't been one...
There are people hankering for it. Or games like Eve, DF, and the many pvp based games like War, FE, Aion, etc. wouldn't have put as much into pvp and had lasting numbers.
If you make a FFA with some restriction in a no zone world with successful open world pvp and some pvp instances (ctf, zone control, with no player looting so people still want the wrold pvp) and non instanced dungeons and do it right with a lot of marketing by a major developer it will hit big.
it is like this, before WoW there was an untapped player interest in MMO's. WoW comes and bam there are way more people playing. The same can be said for EQ1 and UO when they first hit. There were people there. There just wasn't a game done well enough, marketed well enough for them to either know about it or want to play it.
There are also the people who WILL love this style but just haven't played a good enough game to do so. I HATED pvp for the first few years of MMO's. It took me until I tried DoaC I think before I started to like the idea of it. Now I can't go back. When I played WoW all I did was BG as open world pvp had no point after people stopped fighting in a few cities. Even then it had little point but it was stil fun becuse the games mechanics were done well. But it didn't take long for that and the BGs to get old as well. I played WAR for about 4-6 months and the same can be said. The one thing they did right was allowing me to level solely on pvp is I so choose.
Anyway, the point of the above paragraph is there are people who can or will learn to love it if it is presented right.
The majority of the players I have grown old with (30+ here) from playing most MMOs got bored with just pve before our first experience. The ones left that still play want a mix of PvE and PvP with some FFA looted system. I am sure there are some that will never want pvp but I personally feel that after you have player MMOs for over 10 years that will be the vast minority. One day you will be there in about 5-15 years. I hope so. I'm getting tired of blowing up newbs in Eve.
As long as I am not in a ship I will be happy .
I completely disagree. Most players will not go on to more pvp oriented games. Certainly not the average player.
Well that has been my experience with all of the people I have played with.
They either stop playing all together. Or moved into pvp based games.
So, we will have to just disagree. I am fine with that.
My thought on that point is that we just know different types of people.
However, if you want to look at it logically, these games have been around a bit longer than 10 years which means that there would be a LOT of people who would be hankering for a fuller pvp experience yet most games shy away from that type of experience. There aren't a lot of ffa pvp games out and most games tend to either minimize pvp or segragate it so that people don't have to deal with it if they want but can find it if they desire.
Name one that has been from a large developer, marketed heavily, and done right (which is hard).
It says something when small developers, not exactly doing things right, that barely market are having success.
There hasn't been one...
There are people hankering for it. Or games like Eve, DF, and the many pvp based games like War, FE, Aion, etc. wouldn't have put as much into pvp and had lasting numbers.
If you make a FFA with some restriction in a no zone world with successful open world pvp and some pvp instances (ctf, zone control, with no player looting so people still want the wrold pvp) and non instanced dungeons and do it right with a lot of marketing by a major developer it will hit big.
it is like this, before WoW there was an untapped player interest in MMO's. WoW comes and bam there are way more people playing. The same can be said for EQ1 and UO when they first hit. There were people there. There just wasn't a game done well enough, marketed well enough for them to either know about it or want to play it.
I take it you are saying one ffa pvp game?
There aren't many as you well know. But that is my point. If the market was there for it there would be.
Let's look at it another way. So many people and groups decry porn but there is clearly a market as it's all over the internet.
If there wasn't a market for buying gold there wouldn't be all the issues with gold sellers.
There isn't a huge market for ffa pvp games. There IS a market. But not huge. Heck, the creators of LOTRO could have gone and made a RvR type game if they wanted. With some stiuplations on where players could and couldn't go due to the lore. But they didnt'.
If there was a market for more pvp you would have more games that catered to it. EQ recognized that full pvp caused issues so they made their game in the way they did. Other games have followed suit. WoW used to have more open world pvp and as far as I know it's not there anymore.
I dont' think it boils down to there not being games with more ambitious pvp therefore all players have to settle. I truly think it falls to the idea that there is a greater influx of players over the years who dont' want full pvp. It's only the players who reallly want more robust or ambitious pvp who have to unfortunatley settle.
Didn't they add a non-pvp server to UO which drew players away from the main game leaving complaints that that server ruined the game in general?
Players wouldn't be going to a non-pvp server if they didn't want pvp.
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Before UO and EQ there was a demand for a MMO one just didn't exist that doesn't mean the demand wasn't there.
In other words, before MMO's existed there was a market for it, there just wasn't one to sell.
There is a demand for a large, mainstream ffa pvp game that is done right, it just doesn't exist.
Secondly, the UO patch you mentioned basically killed the game from all accounts I have read. It didn't HELP the game for sure.
EQ would have not been what it was w/o the pvp in my opinion. I played it and hated it, IMO AC was a much better game that mainly aimed at PvE, which is what I was into at the time.
The makers of AC a mainly PvE based company went onto make another game you are mentioning, LoTRo. IMO they did what the had the experience and success doing, which was make a pve game. They do it well.
Thier pvp server on AC was a success at the time as well and a lot of players drifted from the PvE servers to the PvP one as time passed. Right now, DT the pvp is the most active server from everyone I talk to.
Before UO and EQ there was a demand for a MMO one just didn't exist that doesn't mean the demand wasn't there. In other words, before MMO's existed there was a market for it, there just wasn't one to sell. There is a demand for a large, mainstream ffa pvp game that is done right, it just doesn't exist. Secondly, the UO patch you mentioned basically killed the game from all accounts I have read. It didn't HELP the game for sure.
EQ would have not been what it was w/o the pvp in my opinion. I played it and hated it, IMO AC was a much better game that mainly aimed at PvE, which is what I was into at the time. The makers of AC a mainly PvE based company went onto make another game you are mentioning, LoTRo. IMO they did what the had the experience and success doing, which was make a pve game. They do it well. Thier pvp server on AC was a success at the time as well and a lot of players drifted from the PvE servers to the PvP one as time passed. Right now, DT the pvp is the most active server from everyone I talk to.
The UO patch probably drew the players away from the main game and then EQ hit and they just went to EQ leaving a scattered playerbase.
I think there is a market (as I indicated) for ffa pvp games and that those players who can't find what they are looking for are going to the older games such as AC or even the RvR experience of DAoC in order to get what they want.
If a more robust pvp experience was wanted then more mainstream games would include it. Because they don't, players who want more robust pvp experiences have to go to older games or EVE or go to Dark Fall.
I think that is one of the reasons Dark Fall is doing so well. Not because it is an amazing game but it's closer to "that amazing game" that these players want.
If a fully polished ffa pvp game were to come out... with all the bells and whistles, bug free, etc, More hardcore pvp players would flock to it in droves.
But it will still be a smaller slice of the mmo market.
edit: Big game publisherrs are not hard to predict. they will go where the money is. IF there was a huge market then you better believe they would make such a game.
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I think there is basically 0 chance that this game will be FFA full-loot PVP. The hardcore PvP games that feature this type of gameplay are niche games that are incapable of capturing mass market appeal due to their very design. The fact is the overwhelming majority of MMORPG players do not elect to play this type of game.
It does not matter that the previous Elder Scrolls games had game mechanics similar to what you might find in an FFA full-loot game like Darkfall, EVE, or MO. The only thing that matters is that none of those three titles has anywhere near the amount of mass market appeal that I guarantee Bethesda is looking for. Make no mistake: they are hoping for WOW-type returns. If they weren't, they would have stuck to making the single-player RPG masterpieces they are already known for. Its not like they were unsuccessful at that. At some point a business decision was made and they decided they wanted a piece of the MMO pie... just like what has happened with Bioware.
What I expect to see is a game that looks and feels very much like previous Elder Scrolls games with much more content and the ability to play in one world with thousands of other people. I expect there will be some form of PvP, but I highly doubt it will be any more 'inconvenient' than what is currently found in major MMO titles such as WOW.
This doesn't mean that they won't have the ability to make some hardcore PvP servers with different rules if they choose to, but I expect they will be the exception and not the norm.
I know it's probably been said already and I share your concerns OP, but we don't know if it will be full loot yet. Honestly if they can come up with a in-depth quest system and sandbox hybrid, I'd be sold. But, there's just too much we don't know yet.
Before I even posted this thread I knew I would get flamed a bit since we know next to nothing about the game.
I don't mind the flamage, As far as I'm concerned when it comes to single player Rpg there's Elder Scrolls and everything else.
So it's a pretty crazy topic for me. I let the fanboi fly and would rage if the mmo version of my favorite rpg ip didn't feel similar to the sp version.
I love all the freedom Bethesda gives me in my rpgs and I figured since this was a game forum why not just post up a mini rant and see how the thread develops.
I like how the majority of the posters kinda agree with me that ffa pvp (full loot) wouldn't work in ES. I'm surprised considering most of us are sandbox fanatics.
Last time I checked when I left a major city in Oblivion I didn't have 50+ other knights trying to kill me and loot me.
In all honesty, I'm fairly sure they've already figured this out.
So, the most likely solution? TES world but in GuildWars style instancing. Sort of a 'personal' sandbox with consensual coop play.
Ken
that is a very good possibility and would make a lot of sense. I realize people would hate that but with game companies sort of bending what an mmo actually is I don't see why Bethesda wouldn't do the same.
Even though there are a lot of mmo players who would be pissed. However, I'm sure there would be a lot of elder scrolls players who would recjoice.
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You are assuming that game developers know what people really want. I honestly think half the people on the planet do not know what they want until it fall into their lap.
Do you really think most of the people that played WoW as an intro in MMO's knew they even wanted to played a MMO until it was out?
I really don't think so. I think most of them would have been too young or laughed at the idea as being really nerdy.
Things change fast sometimes and I think this will be another thing that goes from being a small niche market to something much larger very fast in the next 5 years.
At one point MMO's were small niche market games.
At one point PC games were a small niche market.
At one point the video game industry was a small niche market.
PvP based games are growing, ffa type games are growing, it will happen.
The first developer to pull it off right will be the next Blizzard.
Well if you think about Oblivion, you could attack anyone at any time so I think there would be FFA PvP everywhere in the game. Like I said before just because you have the ability to attack everyone doesn't mean everyone will do it. If you're in a city the guards will more than likely catch on and I'm sure there would be other people that are doing some RP. So if they saw you get attacked a good person will help you out.
This is how I would handle conversations in the game since you can't just pause a MMO. Any time you talk to a NPC or they talk to you like a guard trying to arrest you, you would get protection from taking damage. When arrested you get your pay fine, go to jail and resist arrest options . You wouldn't be able to talk to NPCs while in combat because then people would just talk to someone to keep from getting killed. I don't think there would be to much PvP going on in towns because its just to risky
As for the full loot, I don't think the players themselves would be full loot but the NPCs would be. When you died in oblivion you didn't lose all your stuff so why make that happen in the MMO? But I think people should be able to pick pocket you though, but make it so they can only steal gold or really small items. I think it would be awful hard to steal a claymore in someones invo without them noticing.
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Darkfall is a huge world so it can handle heavy populations. Think WOW x 6 in land mass. I've been griefed 1 time in the last 2 weeks and that was because I was mining somewhere I shouldnt have been while I was making coffee.
Everyone blows the FFA sandbox PVP MMO way out of proportion like there are people waiting around every corner waiting to kill ya.
That's because atm darkfall doesn't have let say 1 million players playing (To not exagerate) else you would be ganked more frequently.
Sandbox games specially the ones now work better with not so big population else everywere you looked there would be people either mining, ganking squads and more ganking squads, naval battles would be a mess if everywere in the sea there would be ships everywere.
Dunno if you get what I meant but imo sandbox are fine with their low population till they get enough profit.
Darkfall servers dont support 1 milllion people. They can support up to 40-50k then they would have to open another server.
I didn't want to be negative but my post turned into a rant on its own.
I love this IP and don't want a mmo installment to tarnish it.
Being completely honest I only see a mmo using the TES ip working if its strictly Pve focused around solo and Small scale Co-op play.
I'm sorry I just don't see it working with pvp, most certainly not ffa full loot pvp.
But elderscroll series is perfect for pvp bandits attack you on your journeys or murders try kill you or guards chasing you try put you in prison becouse you killed a npc and elderscroll worlds where always very hostile so PVP should included.
I see ELDERSCROLL MMO only working if its an sandbox with free for all pvp and no instance.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
It just can't be.
They have to capitalize on their fanbase. I find it very hard to believe that they are going to take their fans who are used to a more solo experience that revolves around them and then allow them to be looted. Especially when their games are just that: solo pve oriented affairs.
My thought is that any game that is going to mmo form is going to spring for the dna of the original game.
They most likely will have pvp as many mmo's have pvp in some form but it's not going to be ffa nor will it be like eve which as someone else mentioned will nicely segregate the population.
In any case that is my thought and I bet dollars to donuts it's correct.
I hope you're right. Though if you consider your reasoning that most single player games that go to MMO form (which can only be like a small handful of games) it could be very possible for an Elder Scrolls MMO to be free for all and full loot. Consider this:
1) In the Elder Scrolls games, you have the ability to steal and the ability to loot everything off of dead players
2) There have never been any other players to deal with and I can only assume there will be PvP.
So the question is, how else will they do all this? I believe if they do a good enough job I will play the game no matter what, but it could be very likely that we will see full loot and free for all PvP. And as much as I despise the people that turn these sorts of games into First Person Shooters with loot, I can't help, but think Free For All is the way they're going to go.
In all games there are bandits and people wanting to kill you. Heck you could apply your criteria to many games.
I could turn it around and say that elderscrolls would be perfect for a completely pve game as you can have npc bandits atta you on your journeys or npc guards chasing you.
Any game can be imagined as either pve or pvp. Whether or not it fits the demographic they are going for will determine what it is.
So look at the elderscrolls demographic. If they are the type of people who would all go for free for all pvp then you will be right. if not then some people will be dissapointed.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I didn't want to be negative but my post turned into a rant on its own.
I love this IP and don't want a mmo installment to tarnish it.
Being completely honest I only see a mmo using the TES ip working if its strictly Pve focused around solo and Small scale Co-op play.
I'm sorry I just don't see it working with pvp, most certainly not ffa full loot pvp.
But elderscroll series is perfect for pvp bandits attack you on your journeys or murders try kill you or guards chasing you try put you in prison becouse you killed a npc and elderscroll worlds where always very hostile so PVP should included.
I see ELDERSCROLL MMO only working if its an sandbox with free for all pvp and no instance.
You know you mention an interesting point. Guards putting players in prison? How cool would that be? I think it would be amazing to play a game that put you in prison as a punishment. Not only that, but have it possible for you to break out or have your friends storm the prison and get you out. That would be amazing.
It just can't be.
They have to capitalize on their fanbase. I find it very hard to believe that they are going to take their fans who are used to a more solo experience that revolves around them and then allow them to be looted. Especially when their games are just that: solo pve oriented affairs.
My thought is that any game that is going to mmo form is going to spring for the dna of the original game.
They most likely will have pvp as many mmo's have pvp in some form but it's not going to be ffa nor will it be like eve which as someone else mentioned will nicely segregate the population.
In any case that is my thought and I bet dollars to donuts it's correct.
I hope you're right. Though if you consider your reasoning that most single player games that go to MMO form (which can only be like a small handful of games) it could be very possible for an Elder Scrolls MMO to be free for all and full loot. Consider this:
1) In the Elder Scrolls games, you have the ability to steal and the ability to loot everything off of dead players
2) There have never been any other players to deal with and I can only assume there will be PvP.
So the question is, how else will they do all this? I believe if they do a good enough job I will play the game no matter what, but it could be very likely that we will see full loot and free for all PvP. And as much as I despise the people that turn these sorts of games into First Person Shooters with loot, I can't help, but think Free For All is the way they're going to go.
As I said to Evasia, any game can be imagined as a pvp game if it has armed conflict.
So in the above example you would just be stealing from npc's.
OR you can imagine Elder Scrolls as a full pvp/looting game as Evasia and others have mentioned. But you really have to look to the fan base. If indeed the Elder Scrolls fanbase would be open to a full loot full pvp game then there it is.
But my sense is that they will not. Especially since a great deal of them have always bristled at making the Elder Scrolls games an mmo.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I don't understand what's with all the posts lately saying that RPG devs moving into the MMO field will fail. Why is everyone assuming they will clone one of their current games and just slap an MMO tag on it?
How is WoW like the original Warcraft games? The look and the setting might be the same and they may have carried over features that were iconic to the series but in terms of general gameplay it's totally different. So why will the TES MMO be any different? (Or TOR for that matter, I saw a similar post to this about Bioware the other day).
I expect we'll see a similar skill system, similar open world and similar first person perspective but other than that expect to see an entirely new game. To be honest, in order for most of the features of the TES series to actually translate directly into an MMO, like dungeon crawling and breaking into houses, there would have to be a heavy amount of instancing, something that would turn an MMO into just Oblivion Online - we don't want that! The only option is to change things up so they work in an MMO setting; make dungeons bigger and more complex with respawning enemies and suddenly it will work well for an open dungeon. It's not hard to think up ways they can alter the trademark features of the series to suit an open-world MMO thriving with players.
An Elder Scrolls MMO would not be Oblivion Online, because that would indeed, as the OP says, not work. For it to be successful they must only base it on the series, drawing on the lore and features that made their previous work great and adapting them to an MMO setting.
Why would anyone assume that there will be pvp, and yet at the same time be thinking that pvp wouldnt work in elder scrolls? There has been no hint that that is the direction they are going so its all in your own assumption. If there was a problem with a pvp elder scrolls dont you think the developers would know it before you?
Imo it is highly unlikely that there will be any pvp at all. But assuming there will be then assuming it wouldnt work is just a non-functional logic.
Funny watching people argue over what is subjective.
Reminds me of a thread on the old Warcraft III boards in respects to the development of WoW and how it would..."ruin the IP" lol yeah it sure ruined it.
We should nickname the OP "Little Chicken"... In terms of the old story about the sky falling, not in terms he's a chicken that can't play a pvp game.
I think you nailed it. If they did it that way it gives them a chance of getting more long term subscribers. I don't think ffapvp with full loot would work. It could work if people were actually decent but lets face it the vast majority of people you meet are more then likely casualties of puberty. I did not have much of a problem with the ffa in UO because after awhile you knew who the jerks were. If they wanted to use ffa between factions that might work and they have to put a hardcap on the number of accounts per server and 1 toon per account per server.
Elder scrolls about freedom,by default freedom gives you the ability to kill other players.Elder scrolls with murdering and stealing does not make sense.There has always been consequence for your actions in elder scrolls.Bethesada just needs to make consequence for murder and stealing hurt.I will be shocked if their is not pvp the only question is will consequence be enough to slow down idiots
FFA PVP would work if there were consequences for your actions. Kill to many people and you can not go to towns, use vendors, trainers, etc. Getting the balance of animosity from NPC's and actions of characters would be difficult, but would make being a complete griefer a pain in the but if it made leveling and surviving in the world 10x harder. Even player cities able to set standing for people like EVE does so player guards attack or vendors will not sell to would help to make the decision to grief a difficult play style.
I think the OP makes the mistake of thinking that turning anything into a MMO doesn't completely ruin every aspect of what made the original good anyway. Oh, a Dragon Ball Z MMO? It's just you running around, hitting auto-attack, and pressing the relevant numbers on the keyboard at various times, except it's slightly Dragon Ball Z themed. It's not like you get to experience any of what made Dragon Ball Z what it was.
Oh, a vampire MMO? It's just you running around, hitting auto-attack, and pressing the relevant numbers on the keyboard at various times, except the game tells you your character is a vampire. It's not like you get to experience any of what makes being a vampire seem cool.
Oh, an Elder Scrolls MMO? It might have some of the Elder Scrolls lore, but that's about it. You're still just going to be running around predetermined groupings of monsters, killing them by hitting autoattack and using some skills, and then repeating that. It's not like what you do will affect the world in any way.
Nah an elder scrolls mmo would be set in an elder scrolls world with as much lore as they can script in. It will also likely be free-form character creation or as close as they feel they can get away with in an mmo.
The point you make about it being you just hitting keys on the keyboard is irrelevant to it being an mmo since the same logic applies to single player games.
Whats questionable I guess is whether they can make a world as complex as oblivion an mmo without making it a lagfest. Dumbing down the city designs would really hurt, imo. Lag is the eternal enemy of mmo.
I completely disagree. Most players will not go on to more pvp oriented games. Certainly not the average player.
Well that has been my experience with all of the people I have played with.
They either stop playing all together. Or moved into pvp based games.
So, we will have to just disagree. I am fine with that.
My thought on that point is that we just know different types of people.
However, if you want to look at it logically, these games have been around a bit longer than 10 years which means that there would be a LOT of people who would be hankering for a fuller pvp experience yet most games shy away from that type of experience. There aren't a lot of ffa pvp games out and most games tend to either minimize pvp or segragate it so that people don't have to deal with it if they want but can find it if they desire.
Name one that has been from a large developer, marketed heavily, and done right (which is hard).
It says something when small developers, not exactly doing things right, that barely market are having success.
There hasn't been one...
There are people hankering for it. Or games like Eve, DF, and the many pvp based games like War, FE, Aion, etc. wouldn't have put as much into pvp and had lasting numbers.
If you make a FFA with some restriction in a no zone world with successful open world pvp and some pvp instances (ctf, zone control, with no player looting so people still want the wrold pvp) and non instanced dungeons and do it right with a lot of marketing by a major developer it will hit big.
it is like this, before WoW there was an untapped player interest in MMO's. WoW comes and bam there are way more people playing. The same can be said for EQ1 and UO when they first hit. There were people there. There just wasn't a game done well enough, marketed well enough for them to either know about it or want to play it.
There are also the people who WILL love this style but just haven't played a good enough game to do so. I HATED pvp for the first few years of MMO's. It took me until I tried DoaC I think before I started to like the idea of it. Now I can't go back. When I played WoW all I did was BG as open world pvp had no point after people stopped fighting in a few cities. Even then it had little point but it was stil fun becuse the games mechanics were done well. But it didn't take long for that and the BGs to get old as well. I played WAR for about 4-6 months and the same can be said. The one thing they did right was allowing me to level solely on pvp is I so choose.
Anyway, the point of the above paragraph is there are people who can or will learn to love it if it is presented right.
I completely disagree. Most players will not go on to more pvp oriented games. Certainly not the average player.
Well that has been my experience with all of the people I have played with.
They either stop playing all together. Or moved into pvp based games.
So, we will have to just disagree. I am fine with that.
My thought on that point is that we just know different types of people.
However, if you want to look at it logically, these games have been around a bit longer than 10 years which means that there would be a LOT of people who would be hankering for a fuller pvp experience yet most games shy away from that type of experience. There aren't a lot of ffa pvp games out and most games tend to either minimize pvp or segragate it so that people don't have to deal with it if they want but can find it if they desire.
Name one that has been from a large developer, marketed heavily, and done right (which is hard).
It says something when small developers, not exactly doing things right, that barely market are having success.
There hasn't been one...
There are people hankering for it. Or games like Eve, DF, and the many pvp based games like War, FE, Aion, etc. wouldn't have put as much into pvp and had lasting numbers.
If you make a FFA with some restriction in a no zone world with successful open world pvp and some pvp instances (ctf, zone control, with no player looting so people still want the wrold pvp) and non instanced dungeons and do it right with a lot of marketing by a major developer it will hit big.
it is like this, before WoW there was an untapped player interest in MMO's. WoW comes and bam there are way more people playing. The same can be said for EQ1 and UO when they first hit. There were people there. There just wasn't a game done well enough, marketed well enough for them to either know about it or want to play it.
I take it you are saying one ffa pvp game?
There aren't many as you well know. But that is my point. If the market was there for it there would be.
Let's look at it another way. So many people and groups decry porn but there is clearly a market as it's all over the internet.
If there wasn't a market for buying gold there wouldn't be all the issues with gold sellers.
There isn't a huge market for ffa pvp games. There IS a market. But not huge. Heck, the creators of LOTRO could have gone and made a RvR type game if they wanted. With some stiuplations on where players could and couldn't go due to the lore. But they didnt'.
If there was a market for more pvp you would have more games that catered to it. EQ recognized that full pvp caused issues so they made their game in the way they did. Other games have followed suit. WoW used to have more open world pvp and as far as I know it's not there anymore.
I dont' think it boils down to there not being games with more ambitious pvp therefore all players have to settle. I truly think it falls to the idea that there is a greater influx of players over the years who dont' want full pvp. It's only the players who reallly want more robust or ambitious pvp who have to unfortunatley settle.
Didn't they add a non-pvp server to UO which drew players away from the main game leaving complaints that that server ruined the game in general?
Players wouldn't be going to a non-pvp server if they didn't want pvp.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Before UO and EQ there was a demand for a MMO one just didn't exist that doesn't mean the demand wasn't there.
In other words, before MMO's existed there was a market for it, there just wasn't one to sell.
There is a demand for a large, mainstream ffa pvp game that is done right, it just doesn't exist.
Secondly, the UO patch you mentioned basically killed the game from all accounts I have read. It didn't HELP the game for sure.
EQ would have not been what it was w/o the pvp in my opinion. I played it and hated it, IMO AC was a much better game that mainly aimed at PvE, which is what I was into at the time.
The makers of AC a mainly PvE based company went onto make another game you are mentioning, LoTRo. IMO they did what the had the experience and success doing, which was make a pve game. They do it well.
Thier pvp server on AC was a success at the time as well and a lot of players drifted from the PvE servers to the PvP one as time passed. Right now, DT the pvp is the most active server from everyone I talk to.
The UO patch probably drew the players away from the main game and then EQ hit and they just went to EQ leaving a scattered playerbase.
I think there is a market (as I indicated) for ffa pvp games and that those players who can't find what they are looking for are going to the older games such as AC or even the RvR experience of DAoC in order to get what they want.
If a more robust pvp experience was wanted then more mainstream games would include it. Because they don't, players who want more robust pvp experiences have to go to older games or EVE or go to Dark Fall.
I think that is one of the reasons Dark Fall is doing so well. Not because it is an amazing game but it's closer to "that amazing game" that these players want.
If a fully polished ffa pvp game were to come out... with all the bells and whistles, bug free, etc, More hardcore pvp players would flock to it in droves.
But it will still be a smaller slice of the mmo market.
edit: Big game publisherrs are not hard to predict. they will go where the money is. IF there was a huge market then you better believe they would make such a game.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
In all honesty, I'm fairly sure they've already figured this out.
So, the most likely solution? TES world but in GuildWars style instancing. Sort of a 'personal' sandbox with consensual coop play.
Ken
www.ActionMMORPG.com
One man, a small pile of money, and the screwball idea of a DIY Indie MMORPG? Yep, that's him. ~sigh~
I think there is basically 0 chance that this game will be FFA full-loot PVP. The hardcore PvP games that feature this type of gameplay are niche games that are incapable of capturing mass market appeal due to their very design. The fact is the overwhelming majority of MMORPG players do not elect to play this type of game.
It does not matter that the previous Elder Scrolls games had game mechanics similar to what you might find in an FFA full-loot game like Darkfall, EVE, or MO. The only thing that matters is that none of those three titles has anywhere near the amount of mass market appeal that I guarantee Bethesda is looking for. Make no mistake: they are hoping for WOW-type returns. If they weren't, they would have stuck to making the single-player RPG masterpieces they are already known for. Its not like they were unsuccessful at that. At some point a business decision was made and they decided they wanted a piece of the MMO pie... just like what has happened with Bioware.
What I expect to see is a game that looks and feels very much like previous Elder Scrolls games with much more content and the ability to play in one world with thousands of other people. I expect there will be some form of PvP, but I highly doubt it will be any more 'inconvenient' than what is currently found in major MMO titles such as WOW.
This doesn't mean that they won't have the ability to make some hardcore PvP servers with different rules if they choose to, but I expect they will be the exception and not the norm.
Before I even posted this thread I knew I would get flamed a bit since we know next to nothing about the game.
I don't mind the flamage, As far as I'm concerned when it comes to single player Rpg there's Elder Scrolls and everything else.
So it's a pretty crazy topic for me. I let the fanboi fly and would rage if the mmo version of my favorite rpg ip didn't feel similar to the sp version.
I love all the freedom Bethesda gives me in my rpgs and I figured since this was a game forum why not just post up a mini rant and see how the thread develops.
I like how the majority of the posters kinda agree with me that ffa pvp (full loot) wouldn't work in ES. I'm surprised considering most of us are sandbox fanatics.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
In all honesty, I'm fairly sure they've already figured this out.
So, the most likely solution? TES world but in GuildWars style instancing. Sort of a 'personal' sandbox with consensual coop play.
Ken
that is a very good possibility and would make a lot of sense. I realize people would hate that but with game companies sort of bending what an mmo actually is I don't see why Bethesda wouldn't do the same.
Even though there are a lot of mmo players who would be pissed. However, I'm sure there would be a lot of elder scrolls players who would recjoice.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You are assuming that game developers know what people really want. I honestly think half the people on the planet do not know what they want until it fall into their lap.
Do you really think most of the people that played WoW as an intro in MMO's knew they even wanted to played a MMO until it was out?
I really don't think so. I think most of them would have been too young or laughed at the idea as being really nerdy.
Things change fast sometimes and I think this will be another thing that goes from being a small niche market to something much larger very fast in the next 5 years.
At one point MMO's were small niche market games.
At one point PC games were a small niche market.
At one point the video game industry was a small niche market.
PvP based games are growing, ffa type games are growing, it will happen.
The first developer to pull it off right will be the next Blizzard.
When it does happen we will be debating the chicken vs the egg.
As to whether the demand was there or the game created the demand.
Well if you think about Oblivion, you could attack anyone at any time so I think there would be FFA PvP everywhere in the game. Like I said before just because you have the ability to attack everyone doesn't mean everyone will do it. If you're in a city the guards will more than likely catch on and I'm sure there would be other people that are doing some RP. So if they saw you get attacked a good person will help you out.
This is how I would handle conversations in the game since you can't just pause a MMO. Any time you talk to a NPC or they talk to you like a guard trying to arrest you, you would get protection from taking damage. When arrested you get your pay fine, go to jail and resist arrest options . You wouldn't be able to talk to NPCs while in combat because then people would just talk to someone to keep from getting killed. I don't think there would be to much PvP going on in towns because its just to risky
As for the full loot, I don't think the players themselves would be full loot but the NPCs would be. When you died in oblivion you didn't lose all your stuff so why make that happen in the MMO? But I think people should be able to pick pocket you though, but make it so they can only steal gold or really small items. I think it would be awful hard to steal a claymore in someones invo without them noticing.