U dunno, we dont see BioWare take shit for Mass Effect, or DICE for Battlefield.... etc etc. Maybe Cryptic should try to actually finish the games they make before making good people pay hard earned cash for them? Um?
Exactly. I replied to Goz directly in that thread and said that maybe if they applied the same desire to get it right before pushing to live while the game was being developed that they now claim to be applying while they are collecting subscription fees the reaction from people might be different. It is entirely ridiculous for them to use the excuse of trying to take the time to get it right, the whole 'when it is done' thing when they pushed a major IP MMO from start to live in 2 years. Their sudden religion on getting things done right and taking their time is awfully convenient now that they are collecting subscription fees for a half assed game.
That guy Gozer is a content developer. He writes dialog for quests. He isn't the community manager. He isn't the lead designer or the CEO. Customer Service isn't part of his job, any more than it's the janitor's job. I'm not a fan of STO, but I'm even less a fan of the drooling baby entitlement that leads people to whine over every last thing. If I were Gozer, I would have stayed away from the forums in the first place.
That guy Gozer is a content developer. He writes dialog for quests. He isn't the community manager. He isn't the lead designer or the CEO. Customer Service isn't part of his job, any more than it's the janitor's job. I'm not a fan of STO, but I'm even less a fan of the drooling baby entitlement that leads people to whine over every last thing. If I were Gozer, I would have stayed away from the forums in the first place.
No wonder why Gozer takes it so personal.. Most of the well know reviewers and thousands of posters are attacking his work directly.. The number 1 problem in the game is lack of "Content".. If I was Gozer's boss I would take his official forum name away from him.. He may not be their official PR person, but he often opens mouth and inserts foot.. In any case STO has been less then impressive in the MMO industry and I'm sure some heads are going to roll.. I wonder how many employees over there are nervous as to when, who and why people will be let go..
So...let me get this right... People are complaining about a delay on a update, and also complaining about STO released too early and "Unfinished" [Mod Edit]
What is hard to understand. They are all about rush-rush-rush to get a half finished game live and get box sales and subscriptions rolling in then once they are being paid they are slowing down and about taking time to 'get it right'? How convenient. Not to mention that in delaying this content they are pushing content that should have been in at launch to the second subscription period requiring more money from people. And let's not forget that with what is easily the second most content starved game, maybe CO is first, will have gone its entire first month after live with barely any updates at all - a ridiculous circumstance for a game so obviously unfinished and incomplete as STO. But then again, not surprising really - it is CO all over again.
No wonder why Gozer takes it so personal.. Most of the well know reviewers and thousands of posters are attacking his work directly.. The number 1 problem in the game is lack of "Content".. If I was Gozer's boss I would take his official forum name away from him.. He may not be their official PR person, but he often opens mouth and inserts foot.. In any case STO has been less then impressive in the MMO industry and I'm sure some heads are going to roll.. I wonder how many employees over there are nervous as to when, who and why people will be let go..
Yes. Communication from developers can be really nice for a game's morale, but Gozer's posts are actually an argument against too much dev interaction. What Cryptic needs (and this is just as true for Champions) is a better community manager, and one or two designated developers answering weekly questions or issuing "state of the game" reports. What they don't need is for every mid-level employee to show up on the forums at irregular intervals and accidentally make the community feel insulted.
Every company (mine included) has to deal with customer feedback. PERIOD....
If they are pissed you act professional, if you don't you look like a jackass. So forums are a direct link to their customers, they just need to suck it up and say something along the lines of "I respectfully disagree, but will take your opinion to the team"...not "OMG stop hating on me or I won't give you guys updates about my work!"
That just sounds like hes a young teen who can't handle the heat.
If a customer doesn't like my artwork or design layout, I ask what is wrong and change it..I then wait until my customer is fully satisfied to put out a billing statement..simple as that yo. I have not had anyone come back upset about my work or the money it cost ($50.00 a hour)
Every company (mine included) has to deal with customer feedback. PERIOD.... If they are pissed you act professional, if you don't you look like a jackass. So forums are a direct link to their customers, they just need to suck it up and say something along the lines of "I respectfully disagree, but will take your opinion to the team"...not "OMG stop hating on me or I won't give you guys updates about my work!" That just sounds like hes a young teen who can't handle the heat. If a customer doesn't like my artwork or design layout, I ask what is wrong and change it..I then wait until my customer is fully satisfied to put out a billing statement..simple as that yo. I have not had anyone come back upset about my work or the money it cost ($50.00 a hour)
This
Well at least these crying Dev's are getting players money because they keep putting up with it anyhow. Take note from CO, game still isn't fixed haha. You've payed for a glorified character creation simulator where you can play mini-games. Don't tell the dev's that they'll probably flame you and never release a content patch unless you apologize to them.
I don't get all the fuss over this patch anyways. If you don't like the game, I highly doubt that a patch would have made any difference. It's still going to be the same game, just with some extra content.So what difference does it make if the patch is delayed or not? You were still planning on leaving anyway right?
I don't get all the fuss over this patch anyways. If you don't like the game, I highly doubt that a patch would have made any difference. It's still going to be the same game, just with some extra content.So what difference does it make if the patch is delayed or not? You were still planning on leaving anyway right?
I agree that the idea that they are going to patch STO into something it is not is silly - it is now mostly everything it will ever be save then adding here and there more of the same. However, that said, I find it hard to believe you cannot see the big difference between patching in new content now and later after people are required to pay another $15.
The difference is simple - Cryptic launched a game, again, that is unfinished and lacking content and they are now expecting people to pay more $$$ to get access to part of what should have been in the game at launch. Sure, content shouldn't go live before it is done right - nobody argues that. But in the same vein the game shouldn't go live before it is done right and clearly Cryptic had no issue rushing when it benefited them, now they want to take their time when that time cost customers money - and that is simply wrong.
exactly AgtSmith.. I suspect that patch is ready to go as is right now.. but cryptic will deliberately hold it until the fence sitters commit to paying a full month subscription before releasing it.. it's just wrong business practice and people should not support that type of behavior..
Most larger companies have policies against random employees talking to the public/customers about things for a reason...they aren't trained to do so. I think there's probably more negative feedback over the way Gozer handled himself rather than the fact that a content patch was pushed back (again).
Most larger companies have policies against random employees talking to the public/customers about things for a reason...they aren't trained to do so. I think there's probably more negative feedback over the way Gozer handled himself rather than the fact that a content patch was pushed back (again).
Probably both.. and keep in mind that Gozer has been called on this before a few times.. I even posted more of his unprofessionalism last week.. As I said earlier.. it seems that every time he opens his mouth he inserts foot.. The last thing a company needs is a reputation of a rogue dev posting on the forums having a pissing contest.. Someone needs to take Gozer aside and tell him.. "Do not post on the boards without supervision".. period..
STO is losing half their players...really.. certainly doesn't look like that to me when I log into the game. Let me check.. nope.. players are still on... imagine that? This game / team is getting a whole lot of grief for not much more reason than "You didn't blow my mind and meet all of my expectations at launch... SHAME ON YOU!" What a cardinal sin... not being perfect at launch, not having every feature expected, not pushing out a content update that is showing some flaws... how dare you. Players are more than willing to roast the messanger alive... its fair game... you post to the players they will nail you to a cross the first second they can find a few nails and a tree.. just to make you an 'example'. I don't blame some CM's for putting their foot down and letting players know they are crossing the line. its a give and take... arrogance works both ways. STO is fun to play for a lot of people... I'm enjoying it for what it IS... not getting worked up over what it isn't yet. I think some player are just angry that thier dooms-day prediction(s) about this game are not comming true. Cryptic is making money.. Atari is making money... players are sticking around and levelling up... and that is absolutely frustrating for some people. Sure, some players rushed to the 'end game' as fast as their mouse-button would allow... but thats their problem. Power-grinder-games will burn out in any MMO, some sooner or later. If Cryptic STOPs pushing out content on a permanent basis... or slows it down to nothing.. or only offers good quality content via items shops... then ya... dig out your pichforks and torches and go to town. Till then, play it or don't. Nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head.
Ok your comment about how it doesn't look like people are leaving, even the most die hard of fanboi has to realize they're on a heavily instanced server and the whole playerbase except for 50 people could have left the game and you'd never know it because those 50 are in your instance. I understand this is an exaggeration so don't get your panties in a bunch over it, the point i'm trying to make is that it is highly likely that STO is going to loose subs or is already loosing subs, not just because (in my opinion) it's a sub-par game, but also because it always happens after the 30 free days are up. Happens in every game.
Your second point, of how we shouldn't expect a relatively finished game is flawed. Would you have anything good to say about Final Fantasy VII if the game content stopped after Aeris (Aerith) died, further content to be put in at a later date? Of course you'd be upset. I do understand the difference between a solo style game and a MMO however too many development teams seem to treat the MMO thing as an excuse to make absolute bare minimum games to get them to launch and then see how it goes before putting any real effort or funding into it. Financially this may be sound, I don't know, I'm not an economist, but as a gamer I can tell you this is a pretty sorry state of affairs and I can only hope that MMO's themselves either learn or die off entirely with this kind of attitude.
Your third point is actually kind of spot on, if not comming off in a sort of juvenile way. We, as players, do tend to jump on top of any messenger of bad news with nothing but spite and bile. In all fairness this particular developer did give a good explanation for the situation and in my opinion politely said that he's happy to share this kind of info and explain it as long as people treat it with the respect that it and he is due. This is fair and well worded.
Enjoying it for what it is now (STO) is fine. If you like it than great, you've found a game to play. I don't think for a moment that people are the least bit frustrated that STO hasn't failed, I think they're frustrated because a top notch IP was obliterated by a shake n' bake MMO company like Cryptic (this is my opinion of course). To back that up I would like to remind you and any other readers that Cryptic and I suppose more importantly Atari themselves have stated that it's their GOAL to make MMO's with the least amount of time and cost in order to achieve the maximum amount of profit. They'll use this CO/ STO engine until it runs dry and rehash the same thing in every game they do until they close their doors and get wise. I'm not against them making profit at all, I am against them taking no consideration for people and living up to their reputation as money grabbing game / IP destroying failures. This again is my opinion.
Cryptic has shown in the past that it's content delivery will trickle off to such a degree that any kind of content update will take 6 months after the first "update". Look at CO and that games debacle, hell they were going to CHARGE for their content update until one of their own employees blew the whistle and the community went into an uproar over the situation. I don't expect Cryptic to put game breaking items into their C-store, they've shown to put only cosmetic and fluff stuff for the most part in the past, however I also believe this is where the bulk of their development will go, it will not be into any kind of new or innovative content.
I hope I'm wrong, because if I am I'll be happy to come back with my hat in hand and admit that I goofed on my opinion, but in the interim I'll stand by what I've seen Cryptic do and by my opinion of the game they've released.
Originally posted by Rydeson Someone needs to take Gozer aside and tell him.. "Do not post on the boards without supervision".. period..
That's why they need a proper community manager, someone with enough guts to say to Gozer, "Why don't you let me handle this, big guy." Unfortunately, the Cryptic vision of a community manager is head warning giver and chief post deleter. A CM should be more than just #1 forum moderator. They need a competent public relations person over there.
This is nothing....whilst I agree the dev in question should of worded things better such as "Please keep discussion in this thread civil and constructive so we don't have to close it.",this is nowhere as bad as some are making it out to be.I mean jsut to put it into perspective...imagine if you will that Aventurine's Tasos worked for Cryptic.
Edit: On another note I would say that this content release is not a good indicator on how well Cryptic will support STO with content in it's further future.This content is likely stuff that was already planned for the game but wasn't ready for Launch.This is not unusual for any MMO,but given th elack of content of STO it is easy to argue they should of delayed 1 more month and let a full dev team work on said content to get it out for Launch.
I really do not get it. The way some of you behave is beyond belief. Why do you have this over zealous feeling of entitlement and high status? You've paid $50 / £30 for a video game. It works, there is stuff to do. Why do you guys behave as if you have bought a ticket to paradise with all your worldly possessions only to find you have a bus ticket to nowhere?
Some of the rantings are so far out, get a perspective, it's a computer game. Yes you are paying customers but this is a "luxury item". This isn't poor service from your electricity supplier, you aren't waking up each week to find your freezer defrosted. This isn't a car that left you stranded on the way home from the show room.
I suppose its not to hard to see that being a 'big name' IP release that MMO enthusiasts expected 'big things'. Personally, I was not at all surprised based on the games development history that it would be lucky to get out the door in some kind of organized manner.
I agree that MMO's should have a fundamental core of systems that STO is lacking overall. SWG is an example of a huge MMO structure at launch... STO is but a pale shadow in comparison. The historic SW vs ST competition is a no-contest SW win for SWG over STO.
It looks to me like STO is has become the 'poster child' of whats missing in MMO players expectations. Big IPs must = Big Content, or there will be hell to pay. I am not sure what other big IP's are left after LOTHR & AoC.. I am not holding my breath on DCO.
Instances are rarely full, but I've yet to see them even close to empty either.. but given how segregated they are I have no idea (just like the OP has no idea) the overall total is. I also fully expect to see subs go down.. then up.. then down.. quite a bit as players try & buy or try & leave... and as new publishes encourage re-tries assuming the player is not gone off the deep end in the first place.
And while my point about the 'developer' roast "in a juvenile sort of way" was easily a lot more mature than the child-like behaviour of entitlement some players exhibited at the announcement. I've always viewed my MMO subscription as a rental fee. I don't own STO.. I just rent access to use it.
I will agree that average-joe players don't care all that much if STO has not crashed to the ground... but FORUM users certainly don't want to see something suceed if they voted it down. Some MMORPG posts reminds me of Anton Ego in Ratatoulle...
Anton Ego: What is it, Ambrister?
Ambrister Minion: Gusteau's, sir.
Anton Ego: Finally closing, is it?
Ambrister Minion: No, sir.
Anton Ego: More financial troubles?
Ambrister Minion: No -...
Anton Ego: Announced a new line of microwave egg rolls? What? What? Spit it out!
Ambrister Minion: It's come back. It's popular.
Anton Ego: [spits and swallows is wine in astonishment] I haven't reviewed Gusteau's in years!
Ambrister Minion: No, sir.
Anton Ego: My last review condemned it to the tourist train.
Ambrister Minion: Yes.
Anton Ego: I said, "Gusteau has finally found his rightful place in history right alongside another equally famous chef: Monsieur Boyardee."
Ambrister Minion: Yes.
Anton Ego: That is where I left it. That was my last word - THE last word.
Ambrister Minion: Yes.
Anton Ego: Then tell me, Ambrister, how could it be POPULAR?
I am not saying that everyone feels this way.. but the sentiment is certainly 'out there' that anyone finding fun in STO must be out of their minds.
As far as the 'future' of STO.. I am not sure yet myself. Its simply too young to really know if it will take root with more than a small dedicated fan-base or hold its own in subscriptions.
STO has a lot of growing up to do after the fact. I know a lot of people are not putting much faith that Atari/Cryptic will evolve it much further. I can afford to wait and see... on a MONTHLY subscription.
My worst case is that I get bored and set my account inactive and do something else.
Most larger companies have policies against random employees talking to the public/customers about things for a reason...they aren't trained to do so. I think there's probably more negative feedback over the way Gozer handled himself rather than the fact that a content patch was pushed back (again).
I guess there is a LOT of pressure. As I see it, some bean counters and managers set deadlines, like "make a ST MMO within 2 years with our kit", and then the employees have to do it. Usually the managers don't listen to employees, and I guess they were aware it would be risky and create a limited game experience where people ultimately would complain. But its their job. Now that the game is in danger they get pressure from bosses and gamers, where it prolly isnt their fault at all. They are afraid to lose their jobs and that their work was in vain. I can understand they must feel frustrated and they can't even admit or they get fired. It doesnt make it a heck better for me as customer, but it is still the situation as I see it.
If you have complaints about a product, say your say, and thats it. If an employee attacks me personally I deal with it, but I see it as waste of time and effort to get angry of general stuff like this. What will it lead to? Nada.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I really do not get it. The way some of you behave is beyond belief. Why do you have this over zealous feeling of entitlement and high status? You've paid $50 / £30 for a video game. It works, there is stuff to do. Why do you guys behave as if you have bought a ticket to paradise with all your worldly possessions only to find you have a bus ticket to nowhere?
Some of the rantings are so far out, get a perspective, it's a computer game. Yes you are paying customers but this is a "luxury item". This isn't poor service from your electricity supplier, you aren't waking up each week to find your freezer defrosted. This isn't a car that left you stranded on the way home from the show room. [Mod Edit]
Sure it may be considered a luxury, but its still a product and service that you pay for with certain expectations of quality and content, usually based on promises from the companies themselves. Its not like we pull these things out of thin air (at least in most cases). Take other games like WAR for example. Both leading up to, and even after launch we were promised certain content, fixes for major issues, etc.... but they didnt deliver on their promises, and so 90% of their players left the game over several months.
Think of it like this. Say you go to burger king and order a value meal, and they just toss the bun, burger, condiments, fries in the bag all mixed together and then pour the drink on top of it. Are you getting the product your ordered? sure, its all there in the bag, but is the way it was given to you considered acceptable? wouldnt you be pretty pissed and demand a refund or something, or would you just say oh well i got everything i ordered and eat your soda soaked pile of food? we expect certain levels of quality in all of our products and services, thats simply the way the world works. when youre the one paying for a product, if it doesnt meet your expectations after being told you would receive something specific, youve got every right to complain.
When are MMO gamers going to wise up and realize if you don't treat Devs with some form of respect, you're not going to get much in return? It's always about the devs being "evil" never about players being childish and obnoxious. The guy didn't want to put up with complaints he can't do anything about. Which is a concept lost on gamers, the guy you're talking to isn't the guy in charge. He's the stooge sent to send you the message laid out by the guy in charge. What other business do you have to deal with this much grief from your customers? Not many I can think of on a level similar to what's required by an MMO developer, if they want to have a public face anyway. Wading through the trenches is a community managers job, if a dev is doing it, it's to strike up a real conversation with their customers, far to often do they learn this is a mistake. Most game forums are about the equivalent of an angry mob waving pitchforks, all because they're to arrogant to realize, their creating the communication problem not developers. Give respect and it comes back on you, ignore your part in this scenario, things end up like explained above. Who is the truly arrogant one in this scenario? The dev sending a message about a delay, or customers bent out of shape because they think they'd do better? This goes for every game/company mind you not just Cryptic.
Amen to that, I actually missed the post (and wasn't even really aware of the patch) but I could hardly see him responding negatively if it wasn't for the usual forum trash you get on any message board you go to. For the record I'm not out running surveys and I doubt Cryptic has officially stated "half the customer base" is not resubbing so I'm not speculating on how many people are quitting (no matter what the forum gods say) but I will say I'm enjoying myself enough to not have burned through what content is there and sitting around tracking when the new content is coming.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I really do not get it. The way some of you behave is beyond belief. Why do you have this over zealous feeling of entitlement and high status? You've paid $50 / £30 for a video game. It works, there is stuff to do. Why do you guys behave as if you have bought a ticket to paradise with all your worldly possessions only to find you have a bus ticket to nowhere?
Some of the rantings are so far out, get a perspective, it's a computer game. Yes you are paying customers but this is a "luxury item". This isn't poor service from your electricity supplier, you aren't waking up each week to find your freezer defrosted. This isn't a car that left you stranded on the way home from the show room. [Mod Edit]
Sure it may be considered a luxury, but its still a product and service that you pay for with certain expectations of quality and content, usually based on promises from the companies themselves. Its not like we pull these things out of thin air (at least in most cases). Take other games like WAR for example. Both leading up to, and even after launch we were promised certain content, fixes for major issues, etc.... but they didnt deliver on their promises, and so 90% of their players left the game over several months.
Think of it like this. Say you go to burger king and order a value meal, and they just toss the bun, burger, condiments, fries in the bag all mixed together and then pour the drink on top of it. Are you getting the product your ordered? sure, its all there in the bag, but is the way it was given to you considered acceptable? wouldnt you be pretty pissed and demand a refund or something, or would you just say oh well i got everything i ordered and eat your soda soaked pile of food? we expect certain levels of quality in all of our products and services, thats simply the way the world works. when youre the one paying for a product, if it doesnt meet your expectations after being told you would receive something specific, youve got every right to complain.
This is the problem, many "mmo vets" expect FAR too much, especially at the beginning of a 3,4,5 year project. You guys want it all NOW. There is not an MMO in existance that has launched with every single feature in place and working. Your food analogy is also proof of my comment, its way over the top. Food served like would be considered unedible, STO is working fine, as far as new MMO's go.
Perhaps its closer to asking for as BigMac, you get home and the lettuce is missing. Do you phone McDonalds and rant down the phone? No. You think, silly sods and eat the burger. Next time you have the choice of going else where.
the same thing will happen that did for star wars galaxies to many complaints and not enough thinkers. if i was a dev and 90% of the forum complained about my work i would think about stop reading the forum myself. video game is like art form and last think artist wants to hear is how horrible it is but he would rather at least hear how he can improve it.
Comments
Exactly. I replied to Goz directly in that thread and said that maybe if they applied the same desire to get it right before pushing to live while the game was being developed that they now claim to be applying while they are collecting subscription fees the reaction from people might be different. It is entirely ridiculous for them to use the excuse of trying to take the time to get it right, the whole 'when it is done' thing when they pushed a major IP MMO from start to live in 2 years. Their sudden religion on getting things done right and taking their time is awfully convenient now that they are collecting subscription fees for a half assed game.
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That guy Gozer is a content developer. He writes dialog for quests. He isn't the community manager. He isn't the lead designer or the CEO. Customer Service isn't part of his job, any more than it's the janitor's job. I'm not a fan of STO, but I'm even less a fan of the drooling baby entitlement that leads people to whine over every last thing. If I were Gozer, I would have stayed away from the forums in the first place.
No wonder why Gozer takes it so personal.. Most of the well know reviewers and thousands of posters are attacking his work directly.. The number 1 problem in the game is lack of "Content".. If I was Gozer's boss I would take his official forum name away from him.. He may not be their official PR person, but he often opens mouth and inserts foot.. In any case STO has been less then impressive in the MMO industry and I'm sure some heads are going to roll.. I wonder how many employees over there are nervous as to when, who and why people will be let go..
BECAUSE I pay and they get the money. That's why. Or simplified:
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
So...let me get this right...
People are complaining about a delay on a update, and also complaining about STO released too early and "Unfinished"
[Mod Edit]
WoW.. even the STO boards are discussing the behavior of Devs posting on the forums.. hmmm
forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php
What is hard to understand. They are all about rush-rush-rush to get a half finished game live and get box sales and subscriptions rolling in then once they are being paid they are slowing down and about taking time to 'get it right'? How convenient. Not to mention that in delaying this content they are pushing content that should have been in at launch to the second subscription period requiring more money from people. And let's not forget that with what is easily the second most content starved game, maybe CO is first, will have gone its entire first month after live with barely any updates at all - a ridiculous circumstance for a game so obviously unfinished and incomplete as STO. But then again, not surprising really - it is CO all over again.
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Yes. Communication from developers can be really nice for a game's morale, but Gozer's posts are actually an argument against too much dev interaction. What Cryptic needs (and this is just as true for Champions) is a better community manager, and one or two designated developers answering weekly questions or issuing "state of the game" reports. What they don't need is for every mid-level employee to show up on the forums at irregular intervals and accidentally make the community feel insulted.
Every company (mine included) has to deal with customer feedback. PERIOD....
If they are pissed you act professional, if you don't you look like a jackass. So forums are a direct link to their customers, they just need to suck it up and say something along the lines of "I respectfully disagree, but will take your opinion to the team"...not "OMG stop hating on me or I won't give you guys updates about my work!"
That just sounds like hes a young teen who can't handle the heat.
If a customer doesn't like my artwork or design layout, I ask what is wrong and change it..I then wait until my customer is fully satisfied to put out a billing statement..simple as that yo. I have not had anyone come back upset about my work or the money it cost ($50.00 a hour)
I play all ghame
This
Well at least these crying Dev's are getting players money because they keep putting up with it anyhow. Take note from CO, game still isn't fixed haha. You've payed for a glorified character creation simulator where you can play mini-games. Don't tell the dev's that they'll probably flame you and never release a content patch unless you apologize to them.
I don't get all the fuss over this patch anyways. If you don't like the game, I highly doubt that a patch would have made any difference. It's still going to be the same game, just with some extra content.So what difference does it make if the patch is delayed or not? You were still planning on leaving anyway right?
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
I agree that the idea that they are going to patch STO into something it is not is silly - it is now mostly everything it will ever be save then adding here and there more of the same. However, that said, I find it hard to believe you cannot see the big difference between patching in new content now and later after people are required to pay another $15.
The difference is simple - Cryptic launched a game, again, that is unfinished and lacking content and they are now expecting people to pay more $$$ to get access to part of what should have been in the game at launch. Sure, content shouldn't go live before it is done right - nobody argues that. But in the same vein the game shouldn't go live before it is done right and clearly Cryptic had no issue rushing when it benefited them, now they want to take their time when that time cost customers money - and that is simply wrong.
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exactly AgtSmith.. I suspect that patch is ready to go as is right now.. but cryptic will deliberately hold it until the fence sitters commit to paying a full month subscription before releasing it.. it's just wrong business practice and people should not support that type of behavior..
Most larger companies have policies against random employees talking to the public/customers about things for a reason...they aren't trained to do so. I think there's probably more negative feedback over the way Gozer handled himself rather than the fact that a content patch was pushed back (again).
Probably both.. and keep in mind that Gozer has been called on this before a few times.. I even posted more of his unprofessionalism last week.. As I said earlier.. it seems that every time he opens his mouth he inserts foot.. The last thing a company needs is a reputation of a rogue dev posting on the forums having a pissing contest.. Someone needs to take Gozer aside and tell him.. "Do not post on the boards without supervision".. period..
Ok your comment about how it doesn't look like people are leaving, even the most die hard of fanboi has to realize they're on a heavily instanced server and the whole playerbase except for 50 people could have left the game and you'd never know it because those 50 are in your instance. I understand this is an exaggeration so don't get your panties in a bunch over it, the point i'm trying to make is that it is highly likely that STO is going to loose subs or is already loosing subs, not just because (in my opinion) it's a sub-par game, but also because it always happens after the 30 free days are up. Happens in every game.
Your second point, of how we shouldn't expect a relatively finished game is flawed. Would you have anything good to say about Final Fantasy VII if the game content stopped after Aeris (Aerith) died, further content to be put in at a later date? Of course you'd be upset. I do understand the difference between a solo style game and a MMO however too many development teams seem to treat the MMO thing as an excuse to make absolute bare minimum games to get them to launch and then see how it goes before putting any real effort or funding into it. Financially this may be sound, I don't know, I'm not an economist, but as a gamer I can tell you this is a pretty sorry state of affairs and I can only hope that MMO's themselves either learn or die off entirely with this kind of attitude.
Your third point is actually kind of spot on, if not comming off in a sort of juvenile way. We, as players, do tend to jump on top of any messenger of bad news with nothing but spite and bile. In all fairness this particular developer did give a good explanation for the situation and in my opinion politely said that he's happy to share this kind of info and explain it as long as people treat it with the respect that it and he is due. This is fair and well worded.
Enjoying it for what it is now (STO) is fine. If you like it than great, you've found a game to play. I don't think for a moment that people are the least bit frustrated that STO hasn't failed, I think they're frustrated because a top notch IP was obliterated by a shake n' bake MMO company like Cryptic (this is my opinion of course). To back that up I would like to remind you and any other readers that Cryptic and I suppose more importantly Atari themselves have stated that it's their GOAL to make MMO's with the least amount of time and cost in order to achieve the maximum amount of profit. They'll use this CO/ STO engine until it runs dry and rehash the same thing in every game they do until they close their doors and get wise. I'm not against them making profit at all, I am against them taking no consideration for people and living up to their reputation as money grabbing game / IP destroying failures. This again is my opinion.
Cryptic has shown in the past that it's content delivery will trickle off to such a degree that any kind of content update will take 6 months after the first "update". Look at CO and that games debacle, hell they were going to CHARGE for their content update until one of their own employees blew the whistle and the community went into an uproar over the situation. I don't expect Cryptic to put game breaking items into their C-store, they've shown to put only cosmetic and fluff stuff for the most part in the past, however I also believe this is where the bulk of their development will go, it will not be into any kind of new or innovative content.
I hope I'm wrong, because if I am I'll be happy to come back with my hat in hand and admit that I goofed on my opinion, but in the interim I'll stand by what I've seen Cryptic do and by my opinion of the game they've released.
That's why they need a proper community manager, someone with enough guts to say to Gozer, "Why don't you let me handle this, big guy." Unfortunately, the Cryptic vision of a community manager is head warning giver and chief post deleter. A CM should be more than just #1 forum moderator. They need a competent public relations person over there.
This is nothing....whilst I agree the dev in question should of worded things better such as "Please keep discussion in this thread civil and constructive so we don't have to close it.",this is nowhere as bad as some are making it out to be.I mean jsut to put it into perspective...imagine if you will that Aventurine's Tasos worked for Cryptic.
Edit: On another note I would say that this content release is not a good indicator on how well Cryptic will support STO with content in it's further future.This content is likely stuff that was already planned for the game but wasn't ready for Launch.This is not unusual for any MMO,but given th elack of content of STO it is easy to argue they should of delayed 1 more month and let a full dev team work on said content to get it out for Launch.
I really do not get it. The way some of you behave is beyond belief. Why do you have this over zealous feeling of entitlement and high status? You've paid $50 / £30 for a video game. It works, there is stuff to do. Why do you guys behave as if you have bought a ticket to paradise with all your worldly possessions only to find you have a bus ticket to nowhere?
Some of the rantings are so far out, get a perspective, it's a computer game. Yes you are paying customers but this is a "luxury item". This isn't poor service from your electricity supplier, you aren't waking up each week to find your freezer defrosted. This isn't a car that left you stranded on the way home from the show room.
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I suppose its not to hard to see that being a 'big name' IP release that MMO enthusiasts expected 'big things'. Personally, I was not at all surprised based on the games development history that it would be lucky to get out the door in some kind of organized manner.
I agree that MMO's should have a fundamental core of systems that STO is lacking overall. SWG is an example of a huge MMO structure at launch... STO is but a pale shadow in comparison. The historic SW vs ST competition is a no-contest SW win for SWG over STO.
It looks to me like STO is has become the 'poster child' of whats missing in MMO players expectations. Big IPs must = Big Content, or there will be hell to pay. I am not sure what other big IP's are left after LOTHR & AoC.. I am not holding my breath on DCO.
Instances are rarely full, but I've yet to see them even close to empty either.. but given how segregated they are I have no idea (just like the OP has no idea) the overall total is. I also fully expect to see subs go down.. then up.. then down.. quite a bit as players try & buy or try & leave... and as new publishes encourage re-tries assuming the player is not gone off the deep end in the first place.
And while my point about the 'developer' roast "in a juvenile sort of way" was easily a lot more mature than the child-like behaviour of entitlement some players exhibited at the announcement. I've always viewed my MMO subscription as a rental fee. I don't own STO.. I just rent access to use it.
I will agree that average-joe players don't care all that much if STO has not crashed to the ground... but FORUM users certainly don't want to see something suceed if they voted it down. Some MMORPG posts reminds me of Anton Ego in Ratatoulle...
Anton Ego: What is it, Ambrister?
Ambrister Minion: Gusteau's, sir.
Anton Ego: Finally closing, is it?
Ambrister Minion: No, sir.
Anton Ego: More financial troubles?
Ambrister Minion: No -...
Anton Ego: Announced a new line of microwave egg rolls? What? What? Spit it out!
Ambrister Minion: It's come back. It's popular.
Anton Ego: [spits and swallows is wine in astonishment] I haven't reviewed Gusteau's in years!
Ambrister Minion: No, sir.
Anton Ego: My last review condemned it to the tourist train.
Ambrister Minion: Yes.
Anton Ego: I said, "Gusteau has finally found his rightful place in history right alongside another equally famous chef: Monsieur Boyardee."
Ambrister Minion: Yes.
Anton Ego: That is where I left it. That was my last word - THE last word.
Ambrister Minion: Yes.
Anton Ego: Then tell me, Ambrister, how could it be POPULAR?
I am not saying that everyone feels this way.. but the sentiment is certainly 'out there' that anyone finding fun in STO must be out of their minds.
As far as the 'future' of STO.. I am not sure yet myself. Its simply too young to really know if it will take root with more than a small dedicated fan-base or hold its own in subscriptions.
STO has a lot of growing up to do after the fact. I know a lot of people are not putting much faith that Atari/Cryptic will evolve it much further. I can afford to wait and see... on a MONTHLY subscription.
My worst case is that I get bored and set my account inactive and do something else.
SWG/STO/(SWTOR)
I guess there is a LOT of pressure. As I see it, some bean counters and managers set deadlines, like "make a ST MMO within 2 years with our kit", and then the employees have to do it. Usually the managers don't listen to employees, and I guess they were aware it would be risky and create a limited game experience where people ultimately would complain. But its their job. Now that the game is in danger they get pressure from bosses and gamers, where it prolly isnt their fault at all. They are afraid to lose their jobs and that their work was in vain. I can understand they must feel frustrated and they can't even admit or they get fired. It doesnt make it a heck better for me as customer, but it is still the situation as I see it.
If you have complaints about a product, say your say, and thats it. If an employee attacks me personally I deal with it, but I see it as waste of time and effort to get angry of general stuff like this. What will it lead to? Nada.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Sure it may be considered a luxury, but its still a product and service that you pay for with certain expectations of quality and content, usually based on promises from the companies themselves. Its not like we pull these things out of thin air (at least in most cases). Take other games like WAR for example. Both leading up to, and even after launch we were promised certain content, fixes for major issues, etc.... but they didnt deliver on their promises, and so 90% of their players left the game over several months.
Think of it like this. Say you go to burger king and order a value meal, and they just toss the bun, burger, condiments, fries in the bag all mixed together and then pour the drink on top of it. Are you getting the product your ordered? sure, its all there in the bag, but is the way it was given to you considered acceptable? wouldnt you be pretty pissed and demand a refund or something, or would you just say oh well i got everything i ordered and eat your soda soaked pile of food? we expect certain levels of quality in all of our products and services, thats simply the way the world works. when youre the one paying for a product, if it doesnt meet your expectations after being told you would receive something specific, youve got every right to complain.
Amen to that, I actually missed the post (and wasn't even really aware of the patch) but I could hardly see him responding negatively if it wasn't for the usual forum trash you get on any message board you go to. For the record I'm not out running surveys and I doubt Cryptic has officially stated "half the customer base" is not resubbing so I'm not speculating on how many people are quitting (no matter what the forum gods say) but I will say I'm enjoying myself enough to not have burned through what content is there and sitting around tracking when the new content is coming.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Sure it may be considered a luxury, but its still a product and service that you pay for with certain expectations of quality and content, usually based on promises from the companies themselves. Its not like we pull these things out of thin air (at least in most cases). Take other games like WAR for example. Both leading up to, and even after launch we were promised certain content, fixes for major issues, etc.... but they didnt deliver on their promises, and so 90% of their players left the game over several months.
Think of it like this. Say you go to burger king and order a value meal, and they just toss the bun, burger, condiments, fries in the bag all mixed together and then pour the drink on top of it. Are you getting the product your ordered? sure, its all there in the bag, but is the way it was given to you considered acceptable? wouldnt you be pretty pissed and demand a refund or something, or would you just say oh well i got everything i ordered and eat your soda soaked pile of food? we expect certain levels of quality in all of our products and services, thats simply the way the world works. when youre the one paying for a product, if it doesnt meet your expectations after being told you would receive something specific, youve got every right to complain.
This is the problem, many "mmo vets" expect FAR too much, especially at the beginning of a 3,4,5 year project. You guys want it all NOW. There is not an MMO in existance that has launched with every single feature in place and working. Your food analogy is also proof of my comment, its way over the top. Food served like would be considered unedible, STO is working fine, as far as new MMO's go.
Perhaps its closer to asking for as BigMac, you get home and the lettuce is missing. Do you phone McDonalds and rant down the phone? No. You think, silly sods and eat the burger. Next time you have the choice of going else where.
the same thing will happen that did for star wars galaxies to many complaints and not enough thinkers. if i was a dev and 90% of the forum complained about my work i would think about stop reading the forum myself. video game is like art form and last think artist wants to hear is how horrible it is but he would rather at least hear how he can improve it.