God... As much as I love WoW for some many features, I must for once in my life agree with the hater. Even though I quit wow way before this feature was implemented, I still frequently log back on every now and then to help my sister out with a dungeon or play her character cause she need to do something else (if it were me, I'd just log off but it's important to her so whatever). Before cross realm quest instance was put in place, we got cross realm battleground. Cross realm battleground was not so bad mainly because it was well... battleground. When people enter the battle ground, the main purpose for them it to either rank up enough point to get better gears, or simply a way to enjoy a good night of killing. Asshole in this case is not only accepted but for the most part even encourage. It is encouraged for player to kill each other, the more you make the enemy life miserable, the better chance it is that your team will win.
Cross realm quest dungeon on the other hand is a totally different monster all together. Of all the negative things that cross realm quest dungeon to, the two biggest trend I tend to see is that the world itself is getting more empty, and pug tend to be more dickish. Both of this phenomenon I would attributed to the implementation of the cross realm lfg system.
Before there was the cross realm, some people often have a harder time looking for group. Sometime I could take up to an hour or so to find one. Because of this, people tend to wonder more around the world doing daily quest, farm some mat, or what ever else that tickle their fancy. With the new system, the wait time was never more than 5 minute (at least from my sister deathknight perspective) so people really don't bother to do anything while they wait to be ported.
Send think I notice is that people tend to be more dickish and hostile toward each other. While it is no as bad as staying everyone ninja loot, what they tend to do is care so much less about other and roll on anything that they might have a slightest need for. Things such as realm unspoken rule no longer apply because every realm have a slightly different code of conduct. So without a really coherence set of rule, people revert back to the good old roll on every little thing that I might have the slightest need for rule. Things like class and craft priority goes totally out the window.
However, the worst thing about the new cross realm lfg is the steady increase of the ninja population. Unlike the older system where a person or the guild can be severely punished for the community for pulling something dubious. That way, even the asshole acted decently for the most part it only for the reason that they don't want to waste two or three times longer to find a group for them to party with. With the new found level of anonymity and the ease of always finds a group, it embolden more and more closet ninja to couple out and be the true asshole they always wanted to be.
I love WoW, I really do, but this feature here alone is enough ensure that I will never return to this game.
LFG/Random Dungeon finder is a pretty great feature. No question about it.
You can, of course, still level 1-80 without ever setting foot in a dungeon. You can grind on mobs, you can do quests, you can level via PvP/BG's, or you can use the LFG/Random Dungeon system.
I like that players are exposed to dunegons and group dynamics before they hit 80. It helps them learn their place in groups and more about their class mechanics, imho. It 'trains them'.
No, the LFG/Random Dungeon finder doesn't teach everyone mad skills and it is still somewhat possible to hit 80 and be a n00b. And just because you have done the 5 mans, it doesn't mean you are prep'd for RAID's... but a player that levels via dungeons is more than likely better prep'd than a player that didn't.
Plus... all of the badges, rep, mat's, gear, etc.,.. that you get via dungeons helps a lot, imho. I think it's still good to mix it up. Level 1-2 levels via quests, then the next 1-2 with dungeons.
Anyway... if it's so bad (to some), then don't use it.
My problems with WoW are the power of gear relative to everything else, the people in the world, and the general design of abilities and quests. That does not appeal to me, but the design, if you are into it, is amazing, and this is just one more good idea. And if I enjoyed the game and the dungeons more, this would be a great thing. That is one reason I like Guild Wars so much. You can cut out the boring things, the parts that do not matter, and get straight to the killing, the exploring, or whatever it is that you are doing. Once you have been to a place, you do not need to go back to travel somewhere else. You click a point on the map and you are there.
This serves a similar function. You do not have to travel across the world to a dungeon, and you do not have to argue with people about what to do, and take the time to sit around and wait while you build a group of five people that all want to do the same thing at the same time, in one tiny copy of the universe that you live in. With the random dungeon whatever it is called, you can search with a machine, over a much larger corner of the universe, for people that have probably already done everything, and want to crawl a dungeon, and do not care which. It is faster, easier, and more efficient. I like efficiency. I do not like having to run around from place to place just to get to the place where I can do the thing I want to do.
More games should follow this example. Yes, I want to play a game that sits me in a realistic world of which I can be a part. I want real skills and a vibrant customization system that does not deal with classes. But I have no love for wasting my time to get to the good parts. Of course, if you have a world that is well-done enough that simply being in the world, travelling, is compelling, you would not need this sort of thing at all. I have yet to play a game where travelling was anything but a waste of time after the first time I had done so.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Sure for instance themepark world where every think must be instant and easy its prolly great idea.
But for sandbox hardcore games its terible idea.
Luckely i dont play games that have such easy instant gameplay i would quit in a instant hehe.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
More games should follow this example. Yes, I want to play a game that sits me in a realistic world of which I can be a part. I want real skills and a vibrant customization system that does not deal with classes. But I have no love for wasting my time to get to the good parts. Of course, if you have a world that is well-done enough that simply being in the world, travelling, is compelling, you would not need this sort of thing at all. I have yet to play a game where travelling was anything but a waste of time after the first time I had done so.
More games will be following this example , ... but it will only be succesful if there is a massive world content behind it that can be used too: from pvp places, gathering mats, seasonal content (like present day Lunar festival), and big long chained world quest lines that ... lets you explore and ... end up in these dungeons.
I am pretty sure Blizzard will use the "unlock" feature in the new lvl 1-60 content in CATA: you will only unlock a dungeon by doing a quest line or talking to an NPC outside of that dungeon in the open world.
As a mattter of fact the last published 3 dungeons already used an unlocking mechanism. You couldn't enter the second or third dungeon in the LFG tool of Icecrown without unlocking the first one.
It is just a matter of how you design the world around it: like finding the entrance of the Deadmines by doing the "traitor quest" in old WOW.
Now, ... once you unlocked the entrance and made your journey to it, it is ridiculous to waste 15 minutes of travelling time EACH time to just go for that dungeon again. So the mechanism can work perfecty, but some developper's intelligence in the player's "world" is always needed.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
I stopped playing a while back and was a level 66 Druid, I was just questing on my own all the way through it and got boring after a while.
Couple of months I resubbed again and found this feature and I ended up getting to level 68, think this feature is great!
Might resub again and start a new character as a Shaman or Priest. But it is pretty annoying when you cant get the item you wanted, think I'll reinstall it again
before dungeon finder i readed evriwhere wow fanboys saying wow is the only game that has a world and not evrithing accesable in a few easy clicks with teleports.
now dungeon finder comes out its the best thing there is!.
if wow didnt made the dungeon finder but for example Aion they would say how big Aion sucks for such a feature..
Honestly a lot of the jerk behavior which comes out of x-server instancing could be reduced by removing some of the barriers that servers impose. Like Guild Wars or Champions, where you can hop between "servers" at will.
Honestly that brings up a completely ludicrous point. Guild Wars was bashed extensively for its city instances. WOW doesn't let you change instances (aka "Servers") without paying for it, and they see almost no complaints whatsoever.
When put in that light you almost have to feel sorry for GW's devs.
I dunno, I've never been a fan of the fact that WOW is this 11 million player game and I know a ton of real life friends who play but I can't play with them because we're all on separate servers. Pretty irritating really.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
What's good about that actually? Isn't that exactly what you get in games like Guild Wars, DDO, etc which has no persisent world just instanced scripted dungeons? Why do you actually need a world if all you do is sit at auction and trainer and doing instances all day long with random people?
May be we don't need a world but still DDO nor GW has this feature of random matching and all the associated features.
And it is GREAT. Very popular and Blizzard is going to expand the functionality to BG, and hopefully raid. It is great because you don't have to waste time a) to get a group together, and b) to travel to the dungeon.
More fun, less down-time. No wonder it is so popular.
Ok so the advantage is, that you don't need to talk to people (or ask for invite in case of DDo) to get a group, but you get instantly random team full of random <name%n> players that you'll basically never meet again. Shouldn't they just implement bots? They would at least never go AFK or roll on gear they can't wear.
Thillian, you might want to think about removing the stick from your asses stick from its ass.
The point of playing a game is to play the game. i have never used this feature but if it streamlines the game and makes it more fun; it is a good thing.
If a person wants to do the same dungeon 10 times they should not have to travel the path over and over and over again. It is redundant. The path does not change and often times traveling the same land 50, 100, 1000 times people tend to do in MMOs is just boring.
Some people actually like playing MMOs and accomplishing tasks--beating the dungeon. If you do not who cares. Do not use it do not play it.
it seems like a great thing to me though.
And not only many posters here agree that it is a good thing .. it is WILDLY POPULAR and Blizzard is expanding its use. People like Thillian can rant all they want but they are not going to stop progress. Developers are not stupid enough to listen to them.
U be amazed at how Developers do listen to these type of people. Its basically what killed Warhammer. Extreme Fanboys of these games seem to hate WoW so much, that they ram the developers into not adding fun features to their game as long as WoW has it.
Nah, I don't see too much kneejerk WoW-bashing in this thread. It's just that for all its great benefits the cross-server matching idea does have some downsides for players who value certain aspects of MMOs. That said, I think the random dungeon finder is a very good fit for WoW and most of the players who have concerns about the concept probably don't play WoW anymore anyway.
However the original point of this thread was that the random dungeon finder should be included in every MMO and that's another matter entirely. Great game though WoW is, i'm sure even its most ardent fans would accept that there is room in the genre for other styles of MMO.
So basically you people just want a single city to idle at, and then different dungeon maps you can instantly port to without travel, talking to other people, or risk in getting to the dungeon? If that doesn't kill the whole idea of a MMORPG then I dont know what does. Its so sad how the kids these days want everything and they want it NOW. God forbid they have to travel through a dangerous, dark forest to get to the dungeon. Its like when EQ expansion came out with the Plane of Knowledge and insta-ports to everywhere. Talk about immersion taking a dagger to the throat. These games do NOTHING to make you feel like you're actually in a living, breathing world any more. Instead, they are all about instantly porting you to the dungeon of your choice, totally making the rest of the game world obsolete. I remember it being RISKY to go to certain dungeons. Having to have a good group of people just to get to it. Making it seem exciting that you actually made it there alive, you know, like it would happen if you really had to get to a dangerous place. So sad...
It is a common misconception that players just sit in the city all day doing queues. You can queue up, and unless you are a tank or healer, you are going to wait awhile. Alot of players run quests, explore, farm, do dailys etc. while sitting in the queue. Even on my tank character who gets instant queues, I still go out into the real world to pvp, or farm, or do quests and stuff. Its not like everyone is just sitting in the lobby. Players are still using the world as much as they did before for the most part, they are just able to run dungeons more seamlessly. You get ported right back out where you went in, even if you are in flight, so you can just pick up right where you left off farming or questing, and then you have the choice to immediately queue again or not.
Nobody said you can't run to each dungeon entrance and queue up from there. I've done it several times when I wasn't exactly sure where the dungeon I wanted to queue for was at. It helps if you die inside because you still have to run back to the dungeon in ghost form if you die (unless you get a rez) so it's still very advantageous to know your way around.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Honestly a lot of the jerk behavior which comes out of x-server instancing could be reduced by removing some of the barriers that servers impose. Like Guild Wars or Champions, where you can hop between "servers" at will. Honestly that brings up a completely ludicrous point. Guild Wars was bashed extensively for its city instances. WOW doesn't let you change instances (aka "Servers") without paying for it, and they see almost no complaints whatsoever. When put in that light you almost have to feel sorry for GW's devs. I know a ton of real life friends who play but I can't play with them because we're all on separate servers. Pretty irritating really.
I agree completely. It's just greed.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I personally think the dungeon finder is a great tool in yet another addition that Blizzard is adding to the genre. I still think that the concept needs to be refined more and worked on to make it "perfect" but its getting there. I will name few things I would like to see polished.
1) Prequests. First time when a player ques for the finder - he can go into all dungeons without even knowing the backround story of it. Thats something that needs changing - and to be honest is a pretty easy one. Until a player has done 2-3 quests that involve the core story of the instance he will not be elegable to enter (also a part of gear check). Im not talking 5 man prequests. Just easy story driven content that every player can do (if not only to go to the place in the real world and actually see where it is. How you can start those quests could simply be part of a tooltip info when you go into the dungeon finder and put the mose over the instance you are not yet tuned to.
2) Name of the dungeon on the loading screen. Maybe even some history about it.
3) More items specificly focused for this playing style. The current emblem system in the game is just bad. And 5 man random group content is - just like the rest of the game - depending on gear rather than skills. Every run in 5 mans is easy if you have 10 man raid tank... basicly -- what Im asking for is more proression over the 5 man instances - why are there still crappy blue items dropping in lvl 74 heroic dungeons ?
Just few things based on my opinion.
Hope we will see alot more games with these feature in the future.
I came back for a month recently, and happen to like the LFD tool for the older content, WotLK not so much. You have to factor in this game is around five and half year's old. A lot of the content pre WotLK is not touched anymore. Leveling up a new Warlock, I had a good deal of fun with the LFD, while still exploring the world. I met plenty of cool people from other servers. One group of people.. I played with. We ended up doing like 6 dungeon's in a row together, because we had so much fun talking to each other and playing the game, before most us had to go to bed. So it's not like it killed the social aspect, and most people playing this game for long enough... are not really bothered to do most of these dungeons again. Time it takes to get a tank or healer, then have to run there... bleh.
It helps bring back the old game, which I'm all for. Some people just need to remove the stick from their ass. Also I've heard talk of SOE adding this feature into EQ2 as well. Another older game, that can bring life back to it's older content.
First of all, it only really works because the dungeons are so incredibly easy, its very rare to get a random PUG that cannot complete it even with extremely bad players. In BC or vanilla times, the system would not have worked because it would have created groups that really have no chance at beating content.
Already now I am starting to see DPS classes advertise themselves as tanks, just to get in instantly, then asking if someone else can tank.
Also, part of why the system is popular is because it shells out the fastest loot and rewards. This has been something the WOW community has been groomed to love, and it works: Just dump massive rewards for participating which do not require actual playing skill, and people will eat it up.
So in a way, its a great tool for the WoW of today, but it can only work under certain circumstances. For example, if Blizzard would create heroics on the level of BC again, and without the huge outgearing of content normal today, I dont think the tool will be hailed as much, because you d often waste time getting into randomly assembled groups of crappy players with whom you will NOT beat the instance.
To keep the system as popular as it is now, Blizzard would basically have to maintain extremely easy farm content, and keep it at the highest reward ratio. It ll be interesting to see how this plays out, or if we will see yet another steep drop in complexity for Cataclysm, in the name of fast instanced nonsocial gameplay.
First of all, it only really works because the dungeons are so incredibly easy, its very rare to get a random PUG that cannot complete it even with extremely bad players. In BC or vanilla times, the system would not have worked because it would have created groups that really have no chance at beating content. Already now I am starting to see DPS classes advertise themselves as tanks, just to get in instantly, then asking if someone else can tank.
Also, part of why the system is popular is because it shells out the fastest loot and rewards. This has been something the WOW community has been groomed to love, and it works: Just dump massive rewards for participating which do not require actual playing skill, and people will eat it up. So in a way, its a great tool for the WoW of today, but it can only work under certain circumstances. For example, if Blizzard would create heroics on the level of BC again, and without the huge outgearing of content normal today, I dont think the tool will be hailed as much, because you d often waste time getting into randomly assembled groups of crappy players with whom you will NOT beat the instance. To keep the system as popular as it is now, Blizzard would basically have to maintain extremely easy farm content, and keep it at the highest reward ratio. It ll be interesting to see how this plays out, or if we will see yet another steep drop in complexity for Cataclysm, in the name of fast instanced nonsocial gameplay.
MMOs are about meeting ppl online and play with them right ? Its easy - but so is all the world content... You just lack the ppl there to do the content (3-5 man). And again - the difficulty of the content depends on gear. Green geared group showing up in a lvl 80 dungeon would struggle - no matter what skill level. The question is more about how BLizzard can control the item progression.
But first and formost - the game needs to retune to a 5 man content again. You can not start to create a real difficult level progression in 5 mans while some classes have it more easy than others. Balancing healers is something of a must before they go any further.
First of all, it only really works because the dungeons are so incredibly easy, its very rare to get a random PUG that cannot complete it even with extremely bad players. In BC or vanilla times, the system would not have worked because it would have created groups that really have no chance at beating content. Already now I am starting to see DPS classes advertise themselves as tanks, just to get in instantly, then asking if someone else can tank.
Also, part of why the system is popular is because it shells out the fastest loot and rewards. This has been something the WOW community has been groomed to love, and it works: Just dump massive rewards for participating which do not require actual playing skill, and people will eat it up. So in a way, its a great tool for the WoW of today, but it can only work under certain circumstances. For example, if Blizzard would create heroics on the level of BC again, and without the huge outgearing of content normal today, I dont think the tool will be hailed as much, because you d often waste time getting into randomly assembled groups of crappy players with whom you will NOT beat the instance. To keep the system as popular as it is now, Blizzard would basically have to maintain extremely easy farm content, and keep it at the highest reward ratio. It ll be interesting to see how this plays out, or if we will see yet another steep drop in complexity for Cataclysm, in the name of fast instanced nonsocial gameplay.
MMOs are about meeting ppl online and play with them right ? Its easy - but so is all the world content... You just lack the ppl there to do the content (3-5 man). And again - the difficulty of the content depends on gear. Green geared group showing up in a lvl 80 dungeon would struggle - no matter what skill level. The question is more about how BLizzard can control the item progression.
But first and formost - the game needs to retune to a 5 man content again. You can not start to create a real difficult level progression in 5 mans while some classes have it more easy than others. Balancing healers is something of a must before they go any further.
And blizzard is doing it by using gear-checked at the dungeon finder tool. Dungeons are locked out if you are not progressed enough.
And blizzard is doing it by using gear-checked at the dungeon finder tool. Dungeons are locked out if you are not progressed enough.
The check is only for the higher lvl dungeons. I did the entire lower lvl ones on my priest with a lvl 70 raid healing gear and had it very easy - even in heroics. But hey .. if you can't play the game as a healing priest atm - even naked - then you shouldn't be playing WOW. Thats what I mean with balancing 5 mans healing. Having an instant 5 man smart heal kinda makes it easy even in green gear (if you tank has decent enough gear).
And blizzard is doing it by using gear-checked at the dungeon finder tool. Dungeons are locked out if you are not progressed enough.
The check is only for the higher lvl dungeons. I did the entire lower lvl ones on my priest with a lvl 70 raid healing gear and had it very easy - even in heroics. But hey .. if you can't play the game as a healing priest atm - even naked - then you shouldn't be playing WOW. Thats what I mean with balancing 5 mans healing. Having an instant 5 man smart heal kinda makes it easy even in green gear (if you tank has decent enough gear).
Hmm i don't quite get ur point. I think the lower level dungeons have level checks too.
Once you hit 80, if you only have quest greens and a handful of blues, you ll be allowed into the old heroics.
I was allowed to enter ToC heroic with my alt Warlock at a gearscore of 2982 or so, and at 3300 I can queue/draw the forge of souls.
So, while there is indeed a check, its only for a few, and it is at a very low level. While it is possible to beat these instances at said gear level quite normally with a good group, its simply ignorant of reality.... a reality that practically REQUIRES you to outgear most instances, because the playerbase has in many cases become so bad at playing this rather simple game, only heavy outgearing makes some bosses and pulls even doable.
The gear check is nonexistant for the purpose of limiting access until you are not a burden for your group.
Either way, if Cataclysm releases, there are two scenarios.
1) Heroics are super-easy, even easier than the WotLK heroics, as soon as you hit 85 in questgear. This would allow smooth continuation of the dungeon finder tool, with the same or a similar gameplay experience for people that they are used to. It would also make a vast amount of content almost immediately outdated, and likely the playing time of the expansion quite low. Seeing how WotLK was a definite step down in terms of retention for Blizzard, and many tied it to the lacking endgame content and interest in it, I dont think this would be a good idea.
2) Heroics are somewhat challenging at first, if you arrive n your blue/green stuff. Suddenly you need crowd control again, suddenly you dont just spam AoE. This will take a long, painful period of adjustment by the playerbase, because a large part now does not know these things even in theory anymore, certainly cannot use them, and likley will just keep trying, or jack up gearscore expectations from group members. Together with a no-cooldown-kicktool, this may become a serious problem. It will, more importantly, also cause a severe disruption of the gameplay experience for all those now accustomed to rushing heroics, gathering badges and being paid fat loots on a badge/minute ratio of 1/5 or better. And suddenly, the Dungeon Finder may not work anymore to get a group going that actually finishes stuff. Which in turn will drastically reduce its popularity to those who can form a group or know good players outside it. The dungeon finder can only work if there is a good chance you can finish the instance and get to the goal. Otherwise, as other games have shown, it becomes a swamp of crappy players, quick kicks for the most superficial of reasons ,ragequits and generally uselessness.
Either way, the current situation is IMO not one that can be maintained, simply due to the nature of progression in WoW.
it alright yea the tool and the fact that nobody rarely say even hi to you on instance , you got kicked out if you die twice for some reason and end up having some asswipe ninjaing all loot form last boss and leaving party.
EDIT , modification on the tool , one of them could be that class who simply cannot even use item cannot roll need on item and die roll would always be greed on everyone. so you dont see druid rolling need on epic fist weapon just because its purplez!!1
However the original point of this thread was that the random dungeon finder should be included in every MMO and that's another matter entirely. Great game though WoW is, i'm sure even its most ardent fans would accept that there is room in the genre for other styles of MMO.
It could be applied to many, many MMORPG's, if they would include a huge world setting, a guild based game play and a lot of activity in the world realms.
People are fed up in waiting for hours before content can be run. Those mechanics are out. People want to fight, play, adventure now and not sitting at a screen waiting for 7 hours before starting.
Wow has these features of a "world" from its history. A new MMO should not think of implementing it without any world content though.
However ... even a game like ST would have a benifit from such a system. In fact ... they could have included real human crew members to run a ship for a 1 hour mission.. with a fill up auto join system.
Ever thought of that? Because simply these kind of auto join tools are much better than the "henchmen" systems of GW1 and the announced SW tank/healer/dps NPC's. These henchmen just promote solo play, this LFG system allows group play.
It is just a smart way to let people group up (or fill the holes your group is looking for).
And "community" is a big word often being used wrongly. In MMO's you play with guilds and a few friends and all the rest are humans with the roles of NPC's you only encounter now and then. The economy interaction is not a player interaction, that's the AH.
So if you take out the few playing mates and guildies, the number of players can't be big enough really to play and find players. An auto fill-up LFG tool should as of now become standard in most MMO's (smartly adapted to their playing styles).
But being smart and being an MMO publisher is not easy to combine these days.
As to its nay -sayers, the tool in itself is just an expansion on old non functional grouping tools. The process is just being easier, more polished, automated and cross server implemented.
The argument that only easier content can be dealed with it is forgetting that the leveling dungeons are quite challeging and are ran too. Just like the latest 3 dungeons which are noticable more difficult compared with the gear of Mr Average (alt).
The LFG tool even motivates more people to talk on server to group up first in a manual way. Never before have we seen more LFG in the chat channels. it is just an extra way of grouping even more in WotLK.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Once you hit 80, if you only have quest greens and a handful of blues, you ll be allowed into the old heroics. I was allowed to enter ToC heroic with my alt Warlock at a gearscore of 2982 or so, and at 3300 I can queue/draw the forge of souls. So, while there is indeed a check, its only for a few, and it is at a very low level. While it is possible to beat these instances at said gear level quite normally with a good group, its simply ignorant of reality.... a reality that practically REQUIRES you to outgear most instances, because the playerbase has in many cases become so bad at playing this rather simple game, only heavy outgearing makes some bosses and pulls even doable. The gear check is nonexistant for the purpose of limiting access until you are not a burden for your group. Either way, if Cataclysm releases, there are two scenarios. 1) Heroics are super-easy, even easier than the WotLK heroics, as soon as you hit 85 in questgear. This would allow smooth continuation of the dungeon finder tool, with the same or a similar gameplay experience for people that they are used to. It would also make a vast amount of content almost immediately outdated, and likely the playing time of the expansion quite low. Seeing how WotLK was a definite step down in terms of retention for Blizzard, and many tied it to the lacking endgame content and interest in it, I dont think this would be a good idea.
2) Heroics are somewhat challenging at first, if you arrive n your blue/green stuff. Suddenly you need crowd control again, suddenly you dont just spam AoE. This will take a long, painful period of adjustment by the playerbase, because a large part now does not know these things even in theory anymore, certainly cannot use them, and likley will just keep trying, or jack up gearscore expectations from group members. Together with a no-cooldown-kicktool, this may become a serious problem. It will, more importantly, also cause a severe disruption of the gameplay experience for all those now accustomed to rushing heroics, gathering badges and being paid fat loots on a badge/minute ratio of 1/5 or better. And suddenly, the Dungeon Finder may not work anymore to get a group going that actually finishes stuff. Which in turn will drastically reduce its popularity to those who can form a group or know good players outside it. The dungeon finder can only work if there is a good chance you can finish the instance and get to the goal. Otherwise, as other games have shown, it becomes a swamp of crappy players, quick kicks for the most superficial of reasons ,ragequits and generally uselessness. Either way, the current situation is IMO not one that can be maintained, simply due to the nature of progression in WoW.
Don't buy what you are saying. You have rage quit and try after try when players first try WOTLK heroics too because no one can down Logan. Expectation will adjust. No one expect less than a few trys at ICC groups and it will be the same when Catalysm first hit.
All the DF does was to minimize lfg time with an MUCH easier interface. Back BEFORE the tool, i group with people i never see again too. The dynamics are exactly the same.
Plus, you can get your friends together before using DF to fill that last dps slot. You don't have to group with 4 random strangers all the time.
I would be willing to bet this is just going to get MORE popular, and extend to raid/BG hopefully soon.
Comments
God... As much as I love WoW for some many features, I must for once in my life agree with the hater. Even though I quit wow way before this feature was implemented, I still frequently log back on every now and then to help my sister out with a dungeon or play her character cause she need to do something else (if it were me, I'd just log off but it's important to her so whatever). Before cross realm quest instance was put in place, we got cross realm battleground. Cross realm battleground was not so bad mainly because it was well... battleground. When people enter the battle ground, the main purpose for them it to either rank up enough point to get better gears, or simply a way to enjoy a good night of killing. Asshole in this case is not only accepted but for the most part even encourage. It is encouraged for player to kill each other, the more you make the enemy life miserable, the better chance it is that your team will win.
Cross realm quest dungeon on the other hand is a totally different monster all together. Of all the negative things that cross realm quest dungeon to, the two biggest trend I tend to see is that the world itself is getting more empty, and pug tend to be more dickish. Both of this phenomenon I would attributed to the implementation of the cross realm lfg system.
Before there was the cross realm, some people often have a harder time looking for group. Sometime I could take up to an hour or so to find one. Because of this, people tend to wonder more around the world doing daily quest, farm some mat, or what ever else that tickle their fancy. With the new system, the wait time was never more than 5 minute (at least from my sister deathknight perspective) so people really don't bother to do anything while they wait to be ported.
Send think I notice is that people tend to be more dickish and hostile toward each other. While it is no as bad as staying everyone ninja loot, what they tend to do is care so much less about other and roll on anything that they might have a slightest need for. Things such as realm unspoken rule no longer apply because every realm have a slightly different code of conduct. So without a really coherence set of rule, people revert back to the good old roll on every little thing that I might have the slightest need for rule. Things like class and craft priority goes totally out the window.
However, the worst thing about the new cross realm lfg is the steady increase of the ninja population. Unlike the older system where a person or the guild can be severely punished for the community for pulling something dubious. That way, even the asshole acted decently for the most part it only for the reason that they don't want to waste two or three times longer to find a group for them to party with. With the new found level of anonymity and the ease of always finds a group, it embolden more and more closet ninja to couple out and be the true asshole they always wanted to be.
I love WoW, I really do, but this feature here alone is enough ensure that I will never return to this game.
LFG/Random Dungeon finder is a pretty great feature. No question about it.
You can, of course, still level 1-80 without ever setting foot in a dungeon. You can grind on mobs, you can do quests, you can level via PvP/BG's, or you can use the LFG/Random Dungeon system.
I like that players are exposed to dunegons and group dynamics before they hit 80. It helps them learn their place in groups and more about their class mechanics, imho. It 'trains them'.
No, the LFG/Random Dungeon finder doesn't teach everyone mad skills and it is still somewhat possible to hit 80 and be a n00b. And just because you have done the 5 mans, it doesn't mean you are prep'd for RAID's... but a player that levels via dungeons is more than likely better prep'd than a player that didn't.
Plus... all of the badges, rep, mat's, gear, etc.,.. that you get via dungeons helps a lot, imho. I think it's still good to mix it up. Level 1-2 levels via quests, then the next 1-2 with dungeons.
Anyway... if it's so bad (to some), then don't use it.
My problems with WoW are the power of gear relative to everything else, the people in the world, and the general design of abilities and quests. That does not appeal to me, but the design, if you are into it, is amazing, and this is just one more good idea. And if I enjoyed the game and the dungeons more, this would be a great thing. That is one reason I like Guild Wars so much. You can cut out the boring things, the parts that do not matter, and get straight to the killing, the exploring, or whatever it is that you are doing. Once you have been to a place, you do not need to go back to travel somewhere else. You click a point on the map and you are there.
This serves a similar function. You do not have to travel across the world to a dungeon, and you do not have to argue with people about what to do, and take the time to sit around and wait while you build a group of five people that all want to do the same thing at the same time, in one tiny copy of the universe that you live in. With the random dungeon whatever it is called, you can search with a machine, over a much larger corner of the universe, for people that have probably already done everything, and want to crawl a dungeon, and do not care which. It is faster, easier, and more efficient. I like efficiency. I do not like having to run around from place to place just to get to the place where I can do the thing I want to do.
More games should follow this example. Yes, I want to play a game that sits me in a realistic world of which I can be a part. I want real skills and a vibrant customization system that does not deal with classes. But I have no love for wasting my time to get to the good parts. Of course, if you have a world that is well-done enough that simply being in the world, travelling, is compelling, you would not need this sort of thing at all. I have yet to play a game where travelling was anything but a waste of time after the first time I had done so.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
Sure for instance themepark world where every think must be instant and easy its prolly great idea.
But for sandbox hardcore games its terible idea.
Luckely i dont play games that have such easy instant gameplay i would quit in a instant hehe.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
More games will be following this example , ... but it will only be succesful if there is a massive world content behind it that can be used too: from pvp places, gathering mats, seasonal content (like present day Lunar festival), and big long chained world quest lines that ... lets you explore and ... end up in these dungeons.
I am pretty sure Blizzard will use the "unlock" feature in the new lvl 1-60 content in CATA: you will only unlock a dungeon by doing a quest line or talking to an NPC outside of that dungeon in the open world.
As a mattter of fact the last published 3 dungeons already used an unlocking mechanism. You couldn't enter the second or third dungeon in the LFG tool of Icecrown without unlocking the first one.
It is just a matter of how you design the world around it: like finding the entrance of the Deadmines by doing the "traitor quest" in old WOW.
Now, ... once you unlocked the entrance and made your journey to it, it is ridiculous to waste 15 minutes of travelling time EACH time to just go for that dungeon again. So the mechanism can work perfecty, but some developper's intelligence in the player's "world" is always needed.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
I stopped playing a while back and was a level 66 Druid, I was just questing on my own all the way through it and got boring after a while.
Couple of months I resubbed again and found this feature and I ended up getting to level 68, think this feature is great!
Might resub again and start a new character as a Shaman or Priest. But it is pretty annoying when you cant get the item you wanted, think I'll reinstall it again
Open world MMORPGs are fun. CO-op games are fun too.
I used to love playing Diablo.
before dungeon finder i readed evriwhere wow fanboys saying wow is the only game that has a world and not evrithing accesable in a few easy clicks with teleports.
now dungeon finder comes out its the best thing there is!.
if wow didnt made the dungeon finder but for example Aion they would say how big Aion sucks for such a feature..
Honestly a lot of the jerk behavior which comes out of x-server instancing could be reduced by removing some of the barriers that servers impose. Like Guild Wars or Champions, where you can hop between "servers" at will.
Honestly that brings up a completely ludicrous point. Guild Wars was bashed extensively for its city instances. WOW doesn't let you change instances (aka "Servers") without paying for it, and they see almost no complaints whatsoever.
When put in that light you almost have to feel sorry for GW's devs.
I dunno, I've never been a fan of the fact that WOW is this 11 million player game and I know a ton of real life friends who play but I can't play with them because we're all on separate servers. Pretty irritating really.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You gotta love the people who take pride in calling thier game hardcore, and wow ezzmode.
May be we don't need a world but still DDO nor GW has this feature of random matching and all the associated features.
And it is GREAT. Very popular and Blizzard is going to expand the functionality to BG, and hopefully raid. It is great because you don't have to waste time a) to get a group together, and b) to travel to the dungeon.
More fun, less down-time. No wonder it is so popular.
Ok so the advantage is, that you don't need to talk to people (or ask for invite in case of DDo) to get a group, but you get instantly random team full of random <name%n> players that you'll basically never meet again. Shouldn't they just implement bots? They would at least never go AFK or roll on gear they can't wear.
Thillian, you might want to think about removing the stick from your asses stick from its ass.
The point of playing a game is to play the game. i have never used this feature but if it streamlines the game and makes it more fun; it is a good thing.
If a person wants to do the same dungeon 10 times they should not have to travel the path over and over and over again. It is redundant. The path does not change and often times traveling the same land 50, 100, 1000 times people tend to do in MMOs is just boring.
Some people actually like playing MMOs and accomplishing tasks--beating the dungeon. If you do not who cares. Do not use it do not play it.
it seems like a great thing to me though.
And not only many posters here agree that it is a good thing .. it is WILDLY POPULAR and Blizzard is expanding its use. People like Thillian can rant all they want but they are not going to stop progress. Developers are not stupid enough to listen to them.
U be amazed at how Developers do listen to these type of people. Its basically what killed Warhammer. Extreme Fanboys of these games seem to hate WoW so much, that they ram the developers into not adding fun features to their game as long as WoW has it.
Nah, I don't see too much kneejerk WoW-bashing in this thread. It's just that for all its great benefits the cross-server matching idea does have some downsides for players who value certain aspects of MMOs. That said, I think the random dungeon finder is a very good fit for WoW and most of the players who have concerns about the concept probably don't play WoW anymore anyway.
However the original point of this thread was that the random dungeon finder should be included in every MMO and that's another matter entirely. Great game though WoW is, i'm sure even its most ardent fans would accept that there is room in the genre for other styles of MMO.
It is a common misconception that players just sit in the city all day doing queues. You can queue up, and unless you are a tank or healer, you are going to wait awhile. Alot of players run quests, explore, farm, do dailys etc. while sitting in the queue. Even on my tank character who gets instant queues, I still go out into the real world to pvp, or farm, or do quests and stuff. Its not like everyone is just sitting in the lobby. Players are still using the world as much as they did before for the most part, they are just able to run dungeons more seamlessly. You get ported right back out where you went in, even if you are in flight, so you can just pick up right where you left off farming or questing, and then you have the choice to immediately queue again or not.
Nobody said you can't run to each dungeon entrance and queue up from there. I've done it several times when I wasn't exactly sure where the dungeon I wanted to queue for was at. It helps if you die inside because you still have to run back to the dungeon in ghost form if you die (unless you get a rez) so it's still very advantageous to know your way around.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I agree completely. It's just greed.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I personally think the dungeon finder is a great tool in yet another addition that Blizzard is adding to the genre. I still think that the concept needs to be refined more and worked on to make it "perfect" but its getting there. I will name few things I would like to see polished.
1) Prequests. First time when a player ques for the finder - he can go into all dungeons without even knowing the backround story of it. Thats something that needs changing - and to be honest is a pretty easy one. Until a player has done 2-3 quests that involve the core story of the instance he will not be elegable to enter (also a part of gear check). Im not talking 5 man prequests. Just easy story driven content that every player can do (if not only to go to the place in the real world and actually see where it is. How you can start those quests could simply be part of a tooltip info when you go into the dungeon finder and put the mose over the instance you are not yet tuned to.
2) Name of the dungeon on the loading screen. Maybe even some history about it.
3) More items specificly focused for this playing style. The current emblem system in the game is just bad. And 5 man random group content is - just like the rest of the game - depending on gear rather than skills. Every run in 5 mans is easy if you have 10 man raid tank... basicly -- what Im asking for is more proression over the 5 man instances - why are there still crappy blue items dropping in lvl 74 heroic dungeons ?
Just few things based on my opinion.
Hope we will see alot more games with these feature in the future.
I came back for a month recently, and happen to like the LFD tool for the older content, WotLK not so much. You have to factor in this game is around five and half year's old. A lot of the content pre WotLK is not touched anymore. Leveling up a new Warlock, I had a good deal of fun with the LFD, while still exploring the world. I met plenty of cool people from other servers. One group of people.. I played with. We ended up doing like 6 dungeon's in a row together, because we had so much fun talking to each other and playing the game, before most us had to go to bed. So it's not like it killed the social aspect, and most people playing this game for long enough... are not really bothered to do most of these dungeons again. Time it takes to get a tank or healer, then have to run there... bleh.
It helps bring back the old game, which I'm all for. Some people just need to remove the stick from their ass. Also I've heard talk of SOE adding this feature into EQ2 as well. Another older game, that can bring life back to it's older content.
First of all, it only really works because the dungeons are so incredibly easy, its very rare to get a random PUG that cannot complete it even with extremely bad players. In BC or vanilla times, the system would not have worked because it would have created groups that really have no chance at beating content.
Already now I am starting to see DPS classes advertise themselves as tanks, just to get in instantly, then asking if someone else can tank.
Also, part of why the system is popular is because it shells out the fastest loot and rewards. This has been something the WOW community has been groomed to love, and it works: Just dump massive rewards for participating which do not require actual playing skill, and people will eat it up.
So in a way, its a great tool for the WoW of today, but it can only work under certain circumstances. For example, if Blizzard would create heroics on the level of BC again, and without the huge outgearing of content normal today, I dont think the tool will be hailed as much, because you d often waste time getting into randomly assembled groups of crappy players with whom you will NOT beat the instance.
To keep the system as popular as it is now, Blizzard would basically have to maintain extremely easy farm content, and keep it at the highest reward ratio. It ll be interesting to see how this plays out, or if we will see yet another steep drop in complexity for Cataclysm, in the name of fast instanced nonsocial gameplay.
MMOs are about meeting ppl online and play with them right ? Its easy - but so is all the world content... You just lack the ppl there to do the content (3-5 man). And again - the difficulty of the content depends on gear. Green geared group showing up in a lvl 80 dungeon would struggle - no matter what skill level. The question is more about how BLizzard can control the item progression.
But first and formost - the game needs to retune to a 5 man content again. You can not start to create a real difficult level progression in 5 mans while some classes have it more easy than others. Balancing healers is something of a must before they go any further.
MMOs are about meeting ppl online and play with them right ? Its easy - but so is all the world content... You just lack the ppl there to do the content (3-5 man). And again - the difficulty of the content depends on gear. Green geared group showing up in a lvl 80 dungeon would struggle - no matter what skill level. The question is more about how BLizzard can control the item progression.
But first and formost - the game needs to retune to a 5 man content again. You can not start to create a real difficult level progression in 5 mans while some classes have it more easy than others. Balancing healers is something of a must before they go any further.
And blizzard is doing it by using gear-checked at the dungeon finder tool. Dungeons are locked out if you are not progressed enough.
The check is only for the higher lvl dungeons. I did the entire lower lvl ones on my priest with a lvl 70 raid healing gear and had it very easy - even in heroics. But hey .. if you can't play the game as a healing priest atm - even naked - then you shouldn't be playing WOW. Thats what I mean with balancing 5 mans healing. Having an instant 5 man smart heal kinda makes it easy even in green gear (if you tank has decent enough gear).
The check is only for the higher lvl dungeons. I did the entire lower lvl ones on my priest with a lvl 70 raid healing gear and had it very easy - even in heroics. But hey .. if you can't play the game as a healing priest atm - even naked - then you shouldn't be playing WOW. Thats what I mean with balancing 5 mans healing. Having an instant 5 man smart heal kinda makes it easy even in green gear (if you tank has decent enough gear).
Hmm i don't quite get ur point. I think the lower level dungeons have level checks too.
Once you hit 80, if you only have quest greens and a handful of blues, you ll be allowed into the old heroics.
I was allowed to enter ToC heroic with my alt Warlock at a gearscore of 2982 or so, and at 3300 I can queue/draw the forge of souls.
So, while there is indeed a check, its only for a few, and it is at a very low level. While it is possible to beat these instances at said gear level quite normally with a good group, its simply ignorant of reality.... a reality that practically REQUIRES you to outgear most instances, because the playerbase has in many cases become so bad at playing this rather simple game, only heavy outgearing makes some bosses and pulls even doable.
The gear check is nonexistant for the purpose of limiting access until you are not a burden for your group.
Either way, if Cataclysm releases, there are two scenarios.
1) Heroics are super-easy, even easier than the WotLK heroics, as soon as you hit 85 in questgear. This would allow smooth continuation of the dungeon finder tool, with the same or a similar gameplay experience for people that they are used to. It would also make a vast amount of content almost immediately outdated, and likely the playing time of the expansion quite low. Seeing how WotLK was a definite step down in terms of retention for Blizzard, and many tied it to the lacking endgame content and interest in it, I dont think this would be a good idea.
2) Heroics are somewhat challenging at first, if you arrive n your blue/green stuff. Suddenly you need crowd control again, suddenly you dont just spam AoE. This will take a long, painful period of adjustment by the playerbase, because a large part now does not know these things even in theory anymore, certainly cannot use them, and likley will just keep trying, or jack up gearscore expectations from group members. Together with a no-cooldown-kicktool, this may become a serious problem. It will, more importantly, also cause a severe disruption of the gameplay experience for all those now accustomed to rushing heroics, gathering badges and being paid fat loots on a badge/minute ratio of 1/5 or better. And suddenly, the Dungeon Finder may not work anymore to get a group going that actually finishes stuff. Which in turn will drastically reduce its popularity to those who can form a group or know good players outside it. The dungeon finder can only work if there is a good chance you can finish the instance and get to the goal. Otherwise, as other games have shown, it becomes a swamp of crappy players, quick kicks for the most superficial of reasons ,ragequits and generally uselessness.
Either way, the current situation is IMO not one that can be maintained, simply due to the nature of progression in WoW.
it alright yea the tool and the fact that nobody rarely say even hi to you on instance , you got kicked out if you die twice for some reason and end up having some asswipe ninjaing all loot form last boss and leaving party.
EDIT , modification on the tool , one of them could be that class who simply cannot even use item cannot roll need on item and die roll would always be greed on everyone. so you dont see druid rolling need on epic fist weapon just because its purplez!!1
other than that its pretty neat.
cheers
It could be applied to many, many MMORPG's, if they would include a huge world setting, a guild based game play and a lot of activity in the world realms.
People are fed up in waiting for hours before content can be run. Those mechanics are out. People want to fight, play, adventure now and not sitting at a screen waiting for 7 hours before starting.
Wow has these features of a "world" from its history. A new MMO should not think of implementing it without any world content though.
However ... even a game like ST would have a benifit from such a system. In fact ... they could have included real human crew members to run a ship for a 1 hour mission.. with a fill up auto join system.
Ever thought of that? Because simply these kind of auto join tools are much better than the "henchmen" systems of GW1 and the announced SW tank/healer/dps NPC's. These henchmen just promote solo play, this LFG system allows group play.
It is just a smart way to let people group up (or fill the holes your group is looking for).
And "community" is a big word often being used wrongly. In MMO's you play with guilds and a few friends and all the rest are humans with the roles of NPC's you only encounter now and then. The economy interaction is not a player interaction, that's the AH.
So if you take out the few playing mates and guildies, the number of players can't be big enough really to play and find players. An auto fill-up LFG tool should as of now become standard in most MMO's (smartly adapted to their playing styles).
But being smart and being an MMO publisher is not easy to combine these days.
As to its nay -sayers, the tool in itself is just an expansion on old non functional grouping tools. The process is just being easier, more polished, automated and cross server implemented.
The argument that only easier content can be dealed with it is forgetting that the leveling dungeons are quite challeging and are ran too. Just like the latest 3 dungeons which are noticable more difficult compared with the gear of Mr Average (alt).
The LFG tool even motivates more people to talk on server to group up first in a manual way. Never before have we seen more LFG in the chat channels. it is just an extra way of grouping even more in WotLK.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Don't buy what you are saying. You have rage quit and try after try when players first try WOTLK heroics too because no one can down Logan. Expectation will adjust. No one expect less than a few trys at ICC groups and it will be the same when Catalysm first hit.
All the DF does was to minimize lfg time with an MUCH easier interface. Back BEFORE the tool, i group with people i never see again too. The dynamics are exactly the same.
Plus, you can get your friends together before using DF to fill that last dps slot. You don't have to group with 4 random strangers all the time.
I would be willing to bet this is just going to get MORE popular, and extend to raid/BG hopefully soon.