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To those waiting for the 'next' sandbox MMO...
HerculesSAS
Member Posts: 1,272
Let's just be clear here -- to support SV because you like sandbox MMOs does not make the market work to provide that to you.
You're a CONSUMER folks. If you are not a discerning consumer, then you will get crap products because people think they can make money off your ignorance. Independent game developers should not be immune to having a solid business plan and a solid product. It *has* to compete with the other mainstream things in the market because they are pricing accordingly. It doesn't mean you should give them a pass on a broken game, or a game that is only great "in theory", like Mortal Online.
A solid business plan, which SV obviously does not have -- is the ability to ensure that if you invest in this product/service, that it will last a long while and stand the test of time, letting your investment of time not go to waste. Customer retention gives a business the ability to grow and advance their product/service over time, to offer you more for your money.
Be discerning with your money, and don't give any "indy" developer any slack, because you'll only get a product that does not work and won't stand the test of time because there's no business plan. Your want for a sandbox MMO should not subsidize the losers and inept developers trying to make a buck. And if you want to invest into a game like MO feel free -- it's your money after all -- but don't be surprised when the game folds shortly after launch due to too many problems for an inept development team to handle, and all the hours you spent are gone to waste.
But next time around, at least remember what I'm saying now, and demand a good, polished, properly functioning piece of work before you lay your money down, because you'll only be set up for disappointment in the future. If you accept garbage, you can be sure that more garbage will be presented to you on a regular basis.
Comments
I already preorder the 'next' sandbox MMO, without having absolute any proof it is for real. http://www.xsyon.com . People like me simply will never ever learn :P
Hit the nail on the head, im tired of hearing posts on threads saying "give them a break, they are an indie developer" or "there working with little money, cut them slack" it gets old, I want a good product, period.
MMOs played: Too many
Watch List: FFXIV, CoH:GR, GW2, SWTOR, TERA, Earthrise
I have to add -- people think that money drives the creation of themepark MMOs and they are partly correct -- but they really need to take a business class.
When you enter a market (say, MMOs), you look at the biggest and best in the market and try to outdo them. In this case, WOW is the 800 lb gorilla of MMOs and people try to emulate or beat the features so they have some success. However, it is not uncommon to service the 'niche' of a market, like SV said they wanted to, and EVE actually does. But you try to service that niche because you are trying to make a profit on something that is UNDERSERVED in the market. PvP sandbox games ARE underserved in the MMO market, but in order to be a success, you actually have to be GOOD at it. EVE was unique because it was the first game that went back out to that field and it was a success because of two things -- first, there was nothing else like it, and also, because the market wasn't as saturated as it is now.
Please stop thinking that MMOs in order to make money are going to be themeparks. EVE is an example of the opposite, but with the caveats I mentioned above. MO is a poorly designed and implemented game that's trying to compete with out ANY idea of a solid business plan. Customer retention, underlying design, mishmoshed features, unfinished features, poor initial customer reaction actually DETRACTS from the game in a huge way. Even if every bug in the game was fixed, and every feature working, the game still isn't good enough to stand on its own two legs to make people jump at it, and ensure some type of longevity. And that's in large part, due to the fact that the CEO doesn't have any experience and to boot, the fanboys hype the game so much that it's detrimental to their success, especially to those who don't understand and are trying to get in on the game for the first time. The community is going to be a big part why MO fails as well.
But again -- you don't need to make WOW to be profitable, you have to design your game to service the niche properly and have a solid business plan around that idea. MO and SV do neither.
Oh I know ..... those damn indie companies. If only they were more like the big development companies releasing AAA titles that are complete and full of polish.
Wait a minute ......
~Hairysun
http://www.straightdope.com/
Just because other games launch in poor shape doesn't mean that you should support that development either.
Hell, look at WAR for a great example -- lots of box sales, and poor development practices and early launch translates into a LOT of lost customers.
Expect less, get less. Plain and simple.
Well, I did pointed out many times before on the forum that indy companies simply don't have the type of resources. However, people who use that as an excuse for their incomplete product launch is also not facing reality.
I do think we need to take in consideration about whether a company is an independent developer, but that is only for the sake of analysis and not to be used to forgive them. I mean sometimes you can cut them "some" slack on some areas, but yeah, there is at least a minimal standard to fill on the launch version when they are charging the same money (sometimes more) as titles made by large companies.
The main thing is that some people will invest in a dream and some wont. Luckily for us cheaper people we can rely on the ones that are hoping for the game to turn around with some extra money and wait until the game to be a game. Im crossing my figures that MO makes it out of this phase.
Well, I did pointed out many times before on the forum that indy companies simply don't have the type of resources. However, people who use that as an excuse for their incomplete product launch is also not facing reality.
I do think we need to take in consideration about whether a company is an independent developer, but that is only for the sake of analysis and not to be used to forgive them. I mean sometimes you can cut them "some" slack on some areas, but yeah, there is at least a minimal standard to fill on the launch version when they are charging the same money (sometimes more) as titles made by large companies.
This goes to business planning.
If you do not have the resources, you have to be set your goals with the resources you HAVE. You can't make a WOW clone if you have 20 developers. You can't make UO part 2 if you've never launched a software product in your life.
If MO had focused solely on PvP combat, throwing housing, thieving, etc all out the window and got that pitch perfect, then they would have a niche audience available and ready to jump on because they built a game they could support, and with customer retention could develop additional features over time. However, the PvP is so terrible it's not worth sticking with and the rest of the game is basically broken, so what's the point?
It's a failure on the part of the management of the game, nothing more.
Mind telling me how their supposed to deliver a game as polished as a Turbine,Sony,EA, Ncsoft or Blizzard product with 10% of the financial backing and a much smaller Development team?
Sure these games release in sub-standard states but they become much more than any AAA title with the exception of the 10 ton gorilla.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Make a more focused, smaller game. I said what they could throw out above.
I base it all on the price of the product. If I pay the same price for an indie product as I do for a major developer I expekt the same quality. If Indie developers would sell the game for half the price I wouldn´t expekt as much. Quite simple mathemathics really.
All statements I make is from my point of view unless stated otherwise.
Another valid point too -- but since maintenance costs are the same for any MMO (cost per user usually), their monthly fee really can't be lower, However, their box sale could have been a LOT lower.
Make a more focused, smaller game. I said what they could throw out above.
Then you have people complaining there's nothing to do, that the world is too small, that the game has no end goals, that its limited in someway ( a kiss of death for a sandbox). I would rather a game start slowly and be very, very good later on than start fast out the gate and trip over its feet in six months like most AAA titles.
Addition: Eve and Darkfall were both Dog shit when they first started and now Eve is damn near the best game on the market and DF is awesome for quite a few people. Sometimes investments pay off.
Tell you what Let us see how much STO, CO, AoC and Aion improve in the next year or two compared to DF, FE, Eve, MO and other sandboxy games. I would bet my home that the sandbox games are on a whole different level above the so called games we should be paying more for.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I dislike these gleeful cynic pileups. This is a forum, of course, and it's perfectly acceptable that you discuss your urges to feel good about someone else's perceived misfortune. And proceed to reinforce the perception of misfortune if the real thing falls short of your daytime TV-trained sense of delight that lights up every time you see a man fall off his bike or get hit in the groin by a football. This one thing, though, I really wish to comment on.
I am not a consumer. I feel bad for people who identify with such a capitalist psychosis.
I dislike these gleeful cynic pileups. This is a forum, of course, and it's perfectly acceptable that you discuss your urges to feel good about someone else's perceived misfortune. And proceed to reinforce the perception of misfortune if the real thing falls short of your daytime TV-trained sense of delight that lights up every time you see a man fall off his bike or get hit in the groin by a football. This one thing, though, I really wish to comment on.
I am not a consumer. I feel bad for people who identify with such a capitalist psychosis.
I think this is an unfortunate side effect of what SV has encouraged, that you are really an 'investor', but getting zero return.
You are a consumer, whether you like it or not. Whether you're a discerning consumer is another thing altogether.
The problem is ..
i am a consumer and any of the AAA titles stoped to satisfy my specific needs for sandbox MMO and not only that the time i was playing a very good sandbox game the AAA company is gone after money and turned that great game into themepark pile of shit ($OE did NGE my SWG).
So better i place my money and my bet on the indie company who need me and i need them, they are developers after all and not shit salesmen.
and yes i LOVE Darkfall lol( and wish MO online all well)
IMO OP 's crusade against indy developers (masked as consumer care talk) is absolutely displaced, people will like or dislike the game themselves and will make their decision and finally pay to play or not they don't need doomsayers and defamers.
Instead of that why OP don't start a crusade on the shortcomings of the so called AAA titles (or better trainwrecks) that draw in innocent mainstream people who don't know about what MMORPG are and get robbed while payingfor de facto single player experiences but should request MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER experience like whats the label on the game. Instead they get robbed of any MMORPG experience while beeing trapped in instances..
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Isn't it all about money ?
If SV charged 30$ for DD instead of 50, and 50$ for collector's box (imo it's a fail, but I'd never buy it anyway), most of you wouldn't be even talking about indie developing, unfinished products, low amount of resources etcetera shitcetera.
I agree, MO is damn costly at this time - time of beta - real beta tests, not a so called bullshitbeta with marketing purpose only.
50 f*** euros for MO.
How much does DFo cost ? 50 f*** euros !
K, the price we know already.
What do we get for 50 ?
Today we get a perma realm, and some tools to play with - of course with tons of bugs, which are being fixed day by day.
What will we get tomorrow ? More tools to play with - and of course more bugs.
How much for them ? Free of charge.
How much other companies are charging for additional tools ?
Mostly 50 bucks - look for example at blizz or NCsoft.
Seems to me that only themepark games have paid expansions, while sandboxes give them for free.
But if you only look through the prism of bugs you get, not the additional content, fixes, tweaks, and overall gameplay, where's the sense or arguing ?
Bringing up other mmorpg titles doesn't make sense, because all the comedy with development and beta has been forgotten.
But I've looked at star trek online's development for last 4 months, and nobody will convince me, that high budget game having a star trek lore behind is better than MO in current state.
But I have to agree: for 50 now MO offers too few tools to play with, although those who are already in, are damn well-considered, and tend to work with each other.
--
/thread
Remember, your advantage lies in your opponent's weakness (J)
seems everybody knows, bust still rage on it.
hmm ?
--
/thread
Remember, your advantage lies in your opponent's weakness (J)
I dislike these gleeful cynic pileups. This is a forum, of course, and it's perfectly acceptable that you discuss your urges to feel good about someone else's perceived misfortune. And proceed to reinforce the perception of misfortune if the real thing falls short of your daytime TV-trained sense of delight that lights up every time you see a man fall off his bike or get hit in the groin by a football. This one thing, though, I really wish to comment on.
I am not a consumer. I feel bad for people who identify with such a capitalist psychosis.
I think this is an unfortunate side effect of what SV has encouraged, that you are really an 'investor', but getting zero return.
You are a consumer, whether you like it or not. Whether you're a discerning consumer is another thing altogether.
See, that's the psychosis I'm talking about. Investor. Consumer. You're on an imaginary rollercoaster, shouting in a made-up language.
We could dispute the [slightly dubious] logic of supporting indie developers based on their games' 'potential', but here's a simple fact: if we do not, we will *not* get another good sandbox MMO.
The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.
That's the fallacy you want to believe is true.
You can support the idea, but also support proper implementations. Software of this scale takes years to make, so you may get one like MO that sucks, and a developer will say well, I don't have to try too hard because look at how crap MO is, and then just make another CRAP game.
Or you could say well, I like the idea of this game a lot, I want it to be made, but I just won't buy this piece of crap, and you'll find somebody to meet that niche at some point. It just may not be tomorrow, but that's because of the development cycle. Folks here are just pinning their hopes on a team that is unable to deliver, just because they want to play that type of game again. I suppose desperation drives a lot of things home, but not in enough numbers to have a solid business plan.
That's also why a big name developer won't "pick up" MO either, because the design is terrible and the game has no business plan around it.
I wouldn't normally acknowledge any form of communication where one has to be labeled as a troll, but you did drop some food so, eh, I can make an occasional exception when I'm peckish.
Please note the matter-of-fact quality of the definition you posted. It's something that you might say everyone will agree with. And they probably will. It's a term used in the same way one would use descriptors such as "sour", "blue" and so forth. Strictly literally speaking.
Now note the fervor behind the usage of the term "CONSUMER!" in the original post. It borderlines on religious. There is so much implied in his first couple of sentences, one could spend a week detailing it all out. The term is loaded with so many different meanings, implications and suppositions that it really has to astound you just how much cultural information one word can hold. And that's what I was talking about, not the fact that there are people who purchase goods and services.
I wouldn't normally acknowledge any form of communication where one has to be labeled as a troll, but you did drop some food so, eh, I can make an occasional exception when I'm peckish.
Please note the matter-of-fact quality of the definition you posted. It's something that you might say everyone will agree with. And they probably will. It's a term used in the same way one would use descriptors such as "sour", "blue" and so forth. Strictly literally speaking.
Now note the fervor behind the usage of the term "CONSUMER!" in the original post. It borderlines on religious. There is so much implied in his first couple of sentences, one could spend a week detailing it all out. The term is loaded with so many different meanings, implications and suppositions that it really has to astound you just how much cultural information one word can hold. And that's what I was talking about, not the fact that there are people who purchase goods and services.
Really? LOL.
I just meant exactly what his definition said, that you are a person who participates in the purchase of goods or services. If you are a "discerning" consumer, it just means you try to make good choices in your purchases. There's nothing religious about it. Unless of course, you're just here to troll which is my first assumption but I'll leave you to your devices since you're the only one that read it that way anyway.
Mortal Online has already failed in my eyes and all of my friend's eyes. There is no strategy on what they are doing, there is no planning. I suggest everyone start looking into another MMO soon as I believe Mortal Online will not be good for a year from now and probably before then it will close due to lack of funding.
Starvault is the most unprofessional gaming company I have had dealings with, I don't care if they are a small indie company, I will never give them another chance to redeem themselves from the way they have conducted their poor business model. Never again.
I am waiting for another " sandbox " game like others are but I dont attach myself to anything and start dancing around a campfire naked.. ESPECIALLY when its clear that the game will be terrible with little to do other than gank or be ganked ( DF / MO ).