Make a more focused, smaller game. I said what they could throw out above.
Then you have people complaining there's nothing to do, that the world is too small, that the game has no end goals, that its limited in someway ( a kiss of death for a sandbox). I would rather a game start slowly and be very, very good later on than start fast out the gate and trip over its feet in six months like most AAA titles.
That's kind of ironic, because at this point, there really is nothing to do either.
If they hadn't overstepped their capabilities so much, they could have had a decent but smaller game that could grow when time went on.
Instead of that, it seems like they thought to have "the most amazing idea evvar!!" and went to create this thing with little more then a pen, some paper, an old shack with a computer and a job mowing grass for the neighbours.
The article on scope and development here on mmorpg.com describes nicely what went wrong here imo.
And sure, there might be a small base of hardcore sandbox fans who buy anything that has any sort of chance to be their ultimate life simulator.
But ripping off people for months until you *might* end up with something half decent some time in the far future isn't really what I would call good game design.
The only thing you can judge the game on is the now.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
We could dispute the [slightly dubious] logic of supporting indie developers based on their games' 'potential', but here's a simple fact: if we do not, we will *not* get another good sandbox MMO.
I believe the opposite is true. If you continue to lower the bar of what is acceptable to get your quick MMO fix each time we will NEVER get another good sandbox MMO. Lowering our standards will never, ever result in a better product. only by raising them and demanding that games are feature complete at release will we start to see better games, both themepark and sandbox alike.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
We could dispute the [slightly dubious] logic of supporting indie developers based on their games' 'potential', but here's a simple fact: if we do not, we will *not* get another good sandbox MMO.
I believe the opposite is true. If you continue to lower the bar of what is acceptable to get your quick MMO fix each time we will NEVER get another good sandbox MMO. Lowering our standards will never, ever result in a better product. only by raising them and demanding that games are feature complete at release will we start to see better games, both themepark and sandbox alike.
Yup.
Use a car analogy. If customers wanted a car that is super fast and doesn't have any safety standards, how many actually bought it? There were cars like that made in the 70s. Customers saw other car companies able to put in the safety standards and then demanded them even for the "niche" cars.
Even now Ferrari's have airbags, and have for a long time. People demand something, and eventually it gets delivered.
Make a more focused, smaller game. I said what they could throw out above.
Then you have people complaining there's nothing to do, that the world is too small, that the game has no end goals, that its limited in someway ( a kiss of death for a sandbox). I would rather a game start slowly and be very, very good later on than start fast out the gate and trip over its feet in six months like most AAA titles.
That's kind of ironic, because at this point, there really is nothing to do either.
If they hadn't overstepped their capabilities so much, they could have had a decent but smaller game that could grow when time went on.
Instead of that, it seems like they thought to have "the most amazing idea evvar!!" and went to create this thing with little more then a pen, some paper, an old shack with a computer and a job mowing grass for the neighbours.
The article on scope and development here on mmorpg.com describes nicely what went wrong here imo.
And sure, there might be a small base of hardcore sandbox fans who buy anything that has any sort of chance to be their ultimate life simulator.
But ripping off people for months until you *might* end up with something half decent some time in the far future isn't really what I would call good game design.
The only thing you can judge the game on is the now.
Well not everyone runs their business like SV. Im talking sandbox games in general. I agree that SV could have done things differently but they are not the only sandbox developers.
Keep in mind that your OP is directed at all sandbox players even if its in the MO forums SV is not the only developer. Why would we give up on supporting Sandbox games due to the missteps of one company with a product in Beta?
Step back and look at the sub-genre as a whole and you will see why we invest in what starts out as a Below average product (usually).
I am waiting for another " sandbox " game like others are but I dont attach myself to anything and start dancing around a campfire naked.. ESPECIALLY when its clear that the game will be terrible with little to do other than gank or be ganked ( DF / MO ).
Yet DF is anything but just a Gankfest. Try the game in its current state please it's actually very good. The people that kept that game going did a service the the mmo genre.
At its current time not many mmos are as good as DFO.
With that said sometimes this is the type of hate you attract when you promise big things as a indy sandbox developer. Both AV and SV didn't live up to it and you people certainly wont get off your hate wagons to actually reevaluate DF to see it as the good game it is.
I am waiting for another " sandbox " game like others are but I dont attach myself to anything and start dancing around a campfire naked.. ESPECIALLY when its clear that the game will be terrible with little to do other than gank or be ganked ( DF / MO ).
Yet DF is anything but just a Gankfest. Try the game in its current state please it's actually very good. The people that kept that game going did a service the the mmo genre.
At its current time not many mmos are as good as DFO.
With that said sometimes this is the type of hate you attract when you promise big things as a indy sandbox developer. Both AV and SV didn't live up to it and you people certainly wont get off your hate wagons to actually reevaluate DF to see it as the good game it is.
So in DF:
1. I will not be sport for the veteran DF players that has played for many months now?
2. I will have GOOD PvE content to take part in, such as epic quests, hard group quests, and challenging raids?
3. The world is explorable, with many rewards for exploring it?
4. PvE, Crafting, Economy, Exploring, City-Building, Guilds, Role-playing & Social Features are just as fleshed out as the FFA Full-loot PvP system?
5. The GUI and controls are intuitive?
Because everything I've read in player reviews tells me that I will be ganked mercilessly until I've spent months getting my stats as high as theirs; that PvP is what the community focuses on, and the other features aren't that good; I haven't heard of any EQ, WoW, EQ2 raid quality or 5 man dungeon quality PvE content in DF; I never hear people talking about exploration, instead I just hear people talking about PvP and grinding; and I heard a lot of complaints about the GUI and controls not being intuitive and is cumbersome.
From what I hear, DF is far from "anything but just a Gankfest," or good, or that it's anything but a diservice to the sandbox sub-genre.
I am waiting for another " sandbox " game like others are but I dont attach myself to anything and start dancing around a campfire naked.. ESPECIALLY when its clear that the game will be terrible with little to do other than gank or be ganked ( DF / MO ).
Yet DF is anything but just a Gankfest. Try the game in its current state please it's actually very good. The people that kept that game going did a service the the mmo genre.
At its current time not many mmos are as good as DFO.
With that said sometimes this is the type of hate you attract when you promise big things as a indy sandbox developer. Both AV and SV didn't live up to it and you people certainly wont get off your hate wagons to actually reevaluate DF to see it as the good game it is.
So in DF:
1. I will not be sport for the veteran DF players that has played for many months now?
2. I will have GOOD PvE content to take part in, such as epic quests, hard group quests, and challenging raids?
3. The world is explorable, with many rewards for exploring it?
4. PvE, Crafting, Economy, Exploring, City-Building, Guilds, Role-playing & Social Features are just as fleshed out as the FFA Full-loot PvP system?
5. The GUI and controls are intuitive?
Because everything I've read in player reviews tells me that I will be ganked mercilessly until I've spent months getting my stats as high as theirs; that PvP is what the community focuses on, and the other features aren't that good; I haven't heard of any EQ, WoW, EQ2 raid quality or 5 man dungeon quality PvE content in DF; I never hear people talking about exploration, instead I just hear people talking about PvP and grinding; and I heard a lot of complaints about the GUI and controls not being intuitive and is cumbersome.
From what I hear, DF is far from "anything but just a Gankfest," or good, or that it's anything but a diservice to the sandbox sub-genre.
There is a lot of bad reviews that keeps most players from trying DF but if you read most the recent player reviews it's very positive, I have been playing DF since launch (2/26/09) and It's a lot better now and is only getting better you can try DF for 7 days for only 1$ on their website if you would like to test it out. Most people will try and help noobs get used to the game ask anyone who has tried the free trial. There is a whole clan established to help new players ("NEW"). And there is also the newly added "New player protection" in DF that makes you invulnerable to being attacked by players and makes it so you can't damage any other players for 24 hours to help you get used to the game. And they are giving a lot of love to dungeons for DF 2010 as well as tons of more content.
I am waiting for another " sandbox " game like others are but I dont attach myself to anything and start dancing around a campfire naked.. ESPECIALLY when its clear that the game will be terrible with little to do other than gank or be ganked ( DF / MO ).
Yet DF is anything but just a Gankfest. Try the game in its current state please it's actually very good. The people that kept that game going did a service the the mmo genre.
At its current time not many mmos are as good as DFO.
With that said sometimes this is the type of hate you attract when you promise big things as a indy sandbox developer. Both AV and SV didn't live up to it and you people certainly wont get off your hate wagons to actually reevaluate DF to see it as the good game it is.
So in DF:
1. I will not be sport for the veteran DF players that has played for many months now?
Not if your smart and have good social skills. DF is a pvp game similar to Eve you will get destroyed if your a moron.
2. I will have GOOD PvE content to take part in, such as epic quests, hard group quests, and challenging raids?
Name one sandbox mmo with That type of pve content? At best sandbox games have repeatable missions, roaming raid encounters, shit to explore and DF is no different.
3. The world is explorable, with many rewards for exploring it?
Yes. I've spent quite a bit of time exploring ruins and hunting for chests in DF. The population is kinda small at the moment so explorers like me can go around for days just doing my thing and not see more than a handful of guys i i wanted.
4. PvE, Crafting, Economy, Exploring, City-Building, Guilds, Role-playing & Social Features are just as fleshed out as the FFA Full-loot PvP system?
While its city building cant touch SB and Economy is nothing compared to Eve it holes its own. I already commented on the PVE and yes it has social features/fluff like Housing.
5. The GUI and controls are intuitive?
Because everything I've read in player reviews tells me that I will be ganked mercilessly until I've spent months getting my stats as high as theirs; that PvP is what the community focuses on, and the other features aren't that good; I haven't heard of any EQ, WoW, EQ2 raid quality or 5 man dungeon quality PvE content in DF; I never hear people talking about exploration, instead I just hear people talking about PvP and grinding; and I heard a lot of complaints about the GUI and controls not being intuitive and is cumbersome.
YOu hear this exclusively because all these guys talk about is Roaming pvp and sieges similar to the Eve forums where everyone talks about pvp in some form and discredits any other activity.
From what I hear, DF is far from "anything but just a Gankfest," or good, or that it's anything but a diservice to the sandbox sub-genre.
Not at all the game get's better and better every content patch. Sure its not Eve, pre-trammel UO or Pre CU SWG but its an enjoyable experience. You get what you put into it similar to anyother sandbox.
Is it a bit hardcore when it comes to pvp? yeah but its still very enjoyable for other playstyles. They could use a touch of pve love but we could say that about every sandbox couldnt we?
Mind telling me how their supposed to deliver a game as polished as a Turbine,Sony,EA, Ncsoft or Blizzard product with 10% of the financial backing and a much smaller Development team? Sure these games release in sub-standard states but they become much more than any AAA title with the exception of the 10 ton gorilla.
Do the same thing the big dev teams do. Take time and care, and build up the game one step at a time instead of trying to get all the content in as fast as possible regardless of quality. If other small indie teams with even fewer resources can make professional looking products, SV have no excuse.
Mind telling me how their supposed to deliver a game as polished as a Turbine,Sony,EA, Ncsoft or Blizzard product with 10% of the financial backing and a much smaller Development team? Sure these games release in sub-standard states but they become much more than any AAA title with the exception of the 10 ton gorilla.
Do the same thing the big dev teams do. Take time and care, and build up the game one step at a time instead of trying to get all the content in as fast as possible regardless of quality. If other small indie teams with even fewer resources can make professional looking products, SV have no excuse.
IN the mmo genre? who? CCP released a crappy product, so did Nevrex, so did AV, What indy developer released a quality product right out the gate? I'm sure if more did then we wouldnt waste our time with SV right now.
Mind telling me how their supposed to deliver a game as polished as a Turbine,Sony,EA, Ncsoft or Blizzard product with 10% of the financial backing and a much smaller Development team? Sure these games release in sub-standard states but they become much more than any AAA title with the exception of the 10 ton gorilla.
Do the same thing the big dev teams do. Take time and care, and build up the game one step at a time instead of trying to get all the content in as fast as possible regardless of quality. If other small indie teams with even fewer resources can make professional looking products, SV have no excuse.
IN the mmo genre? who? CCP released a crappy product, so did Nevrex, so did AV, What indy developer released a quality product right out the gate? I'm sure if more did then we wouldnt waste our time with SV right now.
I'd like to play shortstop for the NY Yankees. Unfortunately my ballplaying ability doesn't support that. So I stick to playing softball with friends on the weekends. It's no more a "right" of SV to make a sandbox MMO as their first product than it is for me to play for the Yankees simply because I'm a fan and would love to do so. People, and companies, need to function within their means. For SV that probably meant designing and publishing a game or two before trying to start on an ambitious project like MO.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Mind telling me how their supposed to deliver a game as polished as a Turbine,Sony,EA, Ncsoft or Blizzard product with 10% of the financial backing and a much smaller Development team? Sure these games release in sub-standard states but they become much more than any AAA title with the exception of the 10 ton gorilla.
Do the same thing the big dev teams do. Take time and care, and build up the game one step at a time instead of trying to get all the content in as fast as possible regardless of quality. If other small indie teams with even fewer resources can make professional looking products, SV have no excuse.
IN the mmo genre? who? CCP released a crappy product, so did Nevrex, so did AV, What indy developer released a quality product right out the gate? I'm sure if more did then we wouldnt waste our time with SV right now.
I'd like to play shortstop for the NY Yankees. Unfortunately my ballplaying ability doesn't support that. So I stick to playing softball with friends on the weekends. It's no more a "right" of SV to make a sandbox MMO as their first product than it is for me to play for the Yankees simply because I'm a fan and would love to do so. People, and companies, need to function within their means. For SV that probably meant designing and publishing a game or two before trying to start on an ambitious project like MO.
Ill agree with that. I mean a little experience with online gaming would have been nice huh?
Anyway... The game is still in Beta, its pretty terrible but we have no idea if the core group of players will keep the game afloat and one day MO could be a really solid game.
Will it be the UO 2 we've been waiting for? probably not but I'm keeping a wait and see attitude on this whole situation.
I've played enough sandbox indy products to know that you don't just give up on a game if the Beta is rocky.
I love how OP attempts to tell people how they should spend their money.
I "invested" in Mortal by purchasing a pre-order because there is nobody else willing to make me this type of game. Either I dont play MMO's or I give a company $65 to try to make a game thats going in the opposite direction of the industry. If you are content with AAA polished games that pat you on the back for being able to read and offer no consequences or risks of any kind then congratulations because that is where the industry is - and continues to go. I personally miss the days of deep complex systems that take weeks to understand, I miss games that once you fuck up - your rewarded with a swift kick to the head. While I play EVE on and off (its a decent game) I still continue to look for something that will capture me better and MO's potential is VERY fit and in fact many of their ideas even continue to impress me. I understand that they are not the most experienced devs but everyone needs to learn sometime and as things have been going, devs come - devs go. Since I am not playing any other MMO's currently (nothing on the horizon interests me either), I will give Mortal my money in the hopes that in the next year or two us neglected gamers can have our fun also.
I love how OP attempts to tell people how they should spend their money. I "invested" in Mortal by purchasing a pre-order because there is nobody else willing to make me this type of game. Either I dont play MMO's or I give a company $65 to try to make a game thats going in the opposite direction of the industry. If you are content with AAA polished games that pat you on the back for being able to read and offer no consequences or risks of any kind then congratulations because that is where the industry is - and continues to go. I personally miss the days of deep complex systems that take weeks to understand, I miss games that once you fuck up - your rewarded with a swift kick to the head. While I play EVE on and off (its a decent game) I still continue to look for something that will capture me better and MO's potential is VERY fit and in fact many of their ideas even continue to impress me. I understand that they are not the most experienced devs but everyone needs to learn sometime and as things have been going, devs come - devs go. Since I am not playing any other MMO's currently (nothing on the horizon interests me either), I will give Mortal my money in the hopes that in the next year or two us neglected gamers can have our fun also.
You really don't read the posts, you just make up your own content so you can get all bombastic about it. Why, I don't know... but that's a different story entirely. Here, I'll help you.
And if you want to invest into a game like MO feel free -- it's your money after all -- but don't be surprised when the game folds shortly after launch due to too many problems for an inept development team to handle, and all the hours you spent are gone to waste.
A crappy game wont become good just by throwing money at it. If the people behind it are not competent and do not have a good bussiness plan then the game will not be a success.
What worse is that games like Mortal Online and Darkfall will be an example for why not creating sandbox FFA PvP game due to their very low subscriber base scaring investors away.
This is NOT a debate over Themeparks vs Sandbox or PvP vs Carebear. It is over if you should spend money on a crappy game or not.
I would love to play another pre trammel UO or Asherons Call DT but Darkfall was not it and, from what I have seen, neither will Mortal Online be. They are just plain poor games, sandbox or themepark is irrelevant because these two games just are not any good.
What worse is that games like Mortal Online and Darkfall will be an example for why not creating sandbox FFA PvP game due to their very low subscriber base scaring investors away.
This is exactly my fear and driving force in expressing my opinions of MO. I fear a company/group with the means and talent might question trying again. They may see the failure of previous "sandbox" FFA games as a failure of the genre. When in reality it was the failure of inept developers with just bad games. A good sandbox could easily stand on its own and be profitable, the key word being good.
What worse is that games like Mortal Online and Darkfall will be an example for why not creating sandbox FFA PvP game due to their very low subscriber base scaring investors away.
This is exactly my fear and driving force in expressing my opinions of MO. I fear a company/group with the means and talent might question trying again. They may see the failure of previous "sandbox" FFA games as a failure of the genre. When in reality it was the failure of inept developers with just bad games. A good sandbox could easily stand on its own and be profitable, the key word being good.
It's not easy to make a PvP game with full loot and consequences able to keep customers on a long term. Granted, it could be done, and I have some ideas of my own... but it's not without its own set of concerns. That said, SV clearly didn't bother to develop a business plan around MO, which is why it is having such a bad name right now -- in addition to the fact the game is broken, buggy, and boring.
Mind telling me how their supposed to deliver a game as polished as a Turbine,Sony,EA, Ncsoft or Blizzard product with 10% of the financial backing and a much smaller Development team?
You must not work in the software industry. It is my personal observation that 40% of all headcount on a software development project is DEAD WEIGHT -- mostly project managers. In the 23 years I've worked for software companies, I've seen this time and time again.
How does an indie company get it done with a smaller number of people? Easy -- don't hire dead weight! In fact, it should be easier to identify who isn't keeping up on a smaller team.
-- but don't be surprised when the game folds shortly after launch due to too many problems for an inept development team to handle, and all the hours you spent are gone to waste.
... and more speculation. Using scare tactics to prevent purchases has been your tactic for months now; when the old posts turn invalid you make up new ones to replace them. I like the guys at SV, communication through the IRC and forums has been outstanding to the point where I have trust in them. I can pm a dev or talk to them on IRC about game design or concerns and I most always get feedback, something I have never experienced before. I do acknowledge issues with the development process but I have no idea (I try not to speculate without facts) where the issues are. I do believe that any business (especially small companies) are capable of recognizing internal problems and making changes to prevent it from reoccuring. Live and learn as they say.
It's hard to take a definite stand on this one. Logic says you're right, but feelings say you're only mostly right. I keep saying the same thing, that if a company, indie or not, wants to make an MMO, they have to compete in the MMO market. There's no "junior playground" for indie games to test the waters; once they release, they're thrown in with the sharks. The only people who will play them are dedicated fans or people who don't mind a rough lump of coal because they can see the faint glint of a diamond hidden inside.
I can't help but wonder what would happen if more people thought like you when EVE released. I doubt the game would've ever gotten off the ground, and then where would sandboxes be? Even worse off than they are now. EVE is the sandbox's champion right now, and for good reason - CCP is a good company and, even though the game was crap at release, enough people decided to pay for it. Maybe some of them wanted to support an indie company and decided to give the game some slack, but I think most people just saw a lot of potential. In MO's case, though, I think it's too broken. People can invest on what the game could be if they want to.
Basically, at least until Earthrise comes out (if it's good), sandbox lovers are screwed. They don't want to support the evil themepark, but they also can't degrade themselves enough to play the crappy sandbox games that are around (or they think EVE is too boring or Darkfall is too focused on FFA PvP). Hell, even if Earthrise turns out to be the answer to everyone's prayers and is a super awesome sandbox, there will be excuses not to play it. Whatever happens, I have to agree that defending indie companies because they're indie is not smart. Cutting them a little slack with your own personal expectations? Sure, that's probably a good idea, since, realistically, they can't compete with the big boys. Like Hercules ultimately said, spend your money on whatever you want. I just want Hercules to remember EVE, though.
I am waiting for another " sandbox " game like others are but I dont attach myself to anything and start dancing around a campfire naked.. ESPECIALLY when its clear that the game will be terrible with little to do other than gank or be ganked ( DF / MO ).
Yet DF is anything but just a Gankfest. Try the game in its current state please it's actually very good. The people that kept that game going did a service the the mmo genre.
At its current time not many mmos are as good as DFO.
With that said sometimes this is the type of hate you attract when you promise big things as a indy sandbox developer. Both AV and SV didn't live up to it and you people certainly wont get off your hate wagons to actually reevaluate DF to see it as the good game it is.
This is NOT a debate over Themeparks vs Sandbox or PvP vs Carebear. It is over if you should spend money on a crappy game or not. I would love to play another pre trammel UO or Asherons Call DT but Darkfall was not it and, from what I have seen, neither will Mortal Online be. They are just plain poor games, sandbox or themepark is irrelevant because these two games just are not any good.
Please elaborate, provide some bullets about what you believe to be poor about the game. I'm sincerely interested. Allgames have their faults, but DF has weathered a tough storm over the past year and came through the fog looking pretty good; this from a guy that is from Pre-Trammel UO.
Go away hater go!!!! I seriously wonder what games these people play? always bitching, nothing will make these people happy seriously. Wahhhh Its a gankfest.... wahhhh... its not a real sandbox even though i wouldnt know a sandbox if it sat on my head and fucked my face whaaaaa... Go away!
Comments
Make a more focused, smaller game. I said what they could throw out above.
Then you have people complaining there's nothing to do, that the world is too small, that the game has no end goals, that its limited in someway ( a kiss of death for a sandbox). I would rather a game start slowly and be very, very good later on than start fast out the gate and trip over its feet in six months like most AAA titles.
That's kind of ironic, because at this point, there really is nothing to do either.
If they hadn't overstepped their capabilities so much, they could have had a decent but smaller game that could grow when time went on.
Instead of that, it seems like they thought to have "the most amazing idea evvar!!" and went to create this thing with little more then a pen, some paper, an old shack with a computer and a job mowing grass for the neighbours.
The article on scope and development here on mmorpg.com describes nicely what went wrong here imo.
And sure, there might be a small base of hardcore sandbox fans who buy anything that has any sort of chance to be their ultimate life simulator.
But ripping off people for months until you *might* end up with something half decent some time in the far future isn't really what I would call good game design.
The only thing you can judge the game on is the now.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
I believe the opposite is true. If you continue to lower the bar of what is acceptable to get your quick MMO fix each time we will NEVER get another good sandbox MMO. Lowering our standards will never, ever result in a better product. only by raising them and demanding that games are feature complete at release will we start to see better games, both themepark and sandbox alike.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I believe the opposite is true. If you continue to lower the bar of what is acceptable to get your quick MMO fix each time we will NEVER get another good sandbox MMO. Lowering our standards will never, ever result in a better product. only by raising them and demanding that games are feature complete at release will we start to see better games, both themepark and sandbox alike.
Yup.
Use a car analogy. If customers wanted a car that is super fast and doesn't have any safety standards, how many actually bought it? There were cars like that made in the 70s. Customers saw other car companies able to put in the safety standards and then demanded them even for the "niche" cars.
Even now Ferrari's have airbags, and have for a long time. People demand something, and eventually it gets delivered.
Demand less, get less.
Make a more focused, smaller game. I said what they could throw out above.
Then you have people complaining there's nothing to do, that the world is too small, that the game has no end goals, that its limited in someway ( a kiss of death for a sandbox). I would rather a game start slowly and be very, very good later on than start fast out the gate and trip over its feet in six months like most AAA titles.
That's kind of ironic, because at this point, there really is nothing to do either.
If they hadn't overstepped their capabilities so much, they could have had a decent but smaller game that could grow when time went on.
Instead of that, it seems like they thought to have "the most amazing idea evvar!!" and went to create this thing with little more then a pen, some paper, an old shack with a computer and a job mowing grass for the neighbours.
The article on scope and development here on mmorpg.com describes nicely what went wrong here imo.
And sure, there might be a small base of hardcore sandbox fans who buy anything that has any sort of chance to be their ultimate life simulator.
But ripping off people for months until you *might* end up with something half decent some time in the far future isn't really what I would call good game design.
The only thing you can judge the game on is the now.
Well not everyone runs their business like SV. Im talking sandbox games in general. I agree that SV could have done things differently but they are not the only sandbox developers.
Keep in mind that your OP is directed at all sandbox players even if its in the MO forums SV is not the only developer. Why would we give up on supporting Sandbox games due to the missteps of one company with a product in Beta?
Step back and look at the sub-genre as a whole and you will see why we invest in what starts out as a Below average product (usually).
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Yet DF is anything but just a Gankfest. Try the game in its current state please it's actually very good. The people that kept that game going did a service the the mmo genre.
At its current time not many mmos are as good as DFO.
With that said sometimes this is the type of hate you attract when you promise big things as a indy sandbox developer. Both AV and SV didn't live up to it and you people certainly wont get off your hate wagons to actually reevaluate DF to see it as the good game it is.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Yet DF is anything but just a Gankfest. Try the game in its current state please it's actually very good. The people that kept that game going did a service the the mmo genre.
At its current time not many mmos are as good as DFO.
With that said sometimes this is the type of hate you attract when you promise big things as a indy sandbox developer. Both AV and SV didn't live up to it and you people certainly wont get off your hate wagons to actually reevaluate DF to see it as the good game it is.
So in DF:
1. I will not be sport for the veteran DF players that has played for many months now?
2. I will have GOOD PvE content to take part in, such as epic quests, hard group quests, and challenging raids?
3. The world is explorable, with many rewards for exploring it?
4. PvE, Crafting, Economy, Exploring, City-Building, Guilds, Role-playing & Social Features are just as fleshed out as the FFA Full-loot PvP system?
5. The GUI and controls are intuitive?
Because everything I've read in player reviews tells me that I will be ganked mercilessly until I've spent months getting my stats as high as theirs; that PvP is what the community focuses on, and the other features aren't that good; I haven't heard of any EQ, WoW, EQ2 raid quality or 5 man dungeon quality PvE content in DF; I never hear people talking about exploration, instead I just hear people talking about PvP and grinding; and I heard a lot of complaints about the GUI and controls not being intuitive and is cumbersome.
From what I hear, DF is far from "anything but just a Gankfest," or good, or that it's anything but a diservice to the sandbox sub-genre.
Yet DF is anything but just a Gankfest. Try the game in its current state please it's actually very good. The people that kept that game going did a service the the mmo genre.
At its current time not many mmos are as good as DFO.
With that said sometimes this is the type of hate you attract when you promise big things as a indy sandbox developer. Both AV and SV didn't live up to it and you people certainly wont get off your hate wagons to actually reevaluate DF to see it as the good game it is.
So in DF:
1. I will not be sport for the veteran DF players that has played for many months now?
2. I will have GOOD PvE content to take part in, such as epic quests, hard group quests, and challenging raids?
3. The world is explorable, with many rewards for exploring it?
4. PvE, Crafting, Economy, Exploring, City-Building, Guilds, Role-playing & Social Features are just as fleshed out as the FFA Full-loot PvP system?
5. The GUI and controls are intuitive?
Because everything I've read in player reviews tells me that I will be ganked mercilessly until I've spent months getting my stats as high as theirs; that PvP is what the community focuses on, and the other features aren't that good; I haven't heard of any EQ, WoW, EQ2 raid quality or 5 man dungeon quality PvE content in DF; I never hear people talking about exploration, instead I just hear people talking about PvP and grinding; and I heard a lot of complaints about the GUI and controls not being intuitive and is cumbersome.
From what I hear, DF is far from "anything but just a Gankfest," or good, or that it's anything but a diservice to the sandbox sub-genre.
There is a lot of bad reviews that keeps most players from trying DF but if you read most the recent player reviews it's very positive, I have been playing DF since launch (2/26/09) and It's a lot better now and is only getting better you can try DF for 7 days for only 1$ on their website if you would like to test it out. Most people will try and help noobs get used to the game ask anyone who has tried the free trial. There is a whole clan established to help new players ("NEW"). And there is also the newly added "New player protection" in DF that makes you invulnerable to being attacked by players and makes it so you can't damage any other players for 24 hours to help you get used to the game. And they are giving a lot of love to dungeons for DF 2010 as well as tons of more content.
Yet DF is anything but just a Gankfest. Try the game in its current state please it's actually very good. The people that kept that game going did a service the the mmo genre.
At its current time not many mmos are as good as DFO.
With that said sometimes this is the type of hate you attract when you promise big things as a indy sandbox developer. Both AV and SV didn't live up to it and you people certainly wont get off your hate wagons to actually reevaluate DF to see it as the good game it is.
So in DF:
1. I will not be sport for the veteran DF players that has played for many months now?
Not if your smart and have good social skills. DF is a pvp game similar to Eve you will get destroyed if your a moron.
2. I will have GOOD PvE content to take part in, such as epic quests, hard group quests, and challenging raids?
Name one sandbox mmo with That type of pve content? At best sandbox games have repeatable missions, roaming raid encounters, shit to explore and DF is no different.
3. The world is explorable, with many rewards for exploring it?
Yes. I've spent quite a bit of time exploring ruins and hunting for chests in DF. The population is kinda small at the moment so explorers like me can go around for days just doing my thing and not see more than a handful of guys i i wanted.
4. PvE, Crafting, Economy, Exploring, City-Building, Guilds, Role-playing & Social Features are just as fleshed out as the FFA Full-loot PvP system?
While its city building cant touch SB and Economy is nothing compared to Eve it holes its own. I already commented on the PVE and yes it has social features/fluff like Housing.
5. The GUI and controls are intuitive?
Because everything I've read in player reviews tells me that I will be ganked mercilessly until I've spent months getting my stats as high as theirs; that PvP is what the community focuses on, and the other features aren't that good; I haven't heard of any EQ, WoW, EQ2 raid quality or 5 man dungeon quality PvE content in DF; I never hear people talking about exploration, instead I just hear people talking about PvP and grinding; and I heard a lot of complaints about the GUI and controls not being intuitive and is cumbersome.
YOu hear this exclusively because all these guys talk about is Roaming pvp and sieges similar to the Eve forums where everyone talks about pvp in some form and discredits any other activity.
From what I hear, DF is far from "anything but just a Gankfest," or good, or that it's anything but a diservice to the sandbox sub-genre.
Not at all the game get's better and better every content patch. Sure its not Eve, pre-trammel UO or Pre CU SWG but its an enjoyable experience. You get what you put into it similar to anyother sandbox.
Is it a bit hardcore when it comes to pvp? yeah but its still very enjoyable for other playstyles. They could use a touch of pve love but we could say that about every sandbox couldnt we?
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Do the same thing the big dev teams do. Take time and care, and build up the game one step at a time instead of trying to get all the content in as fast as possible regardless of quality. If other small indie teams with even fewer resources can make professional looking products, SV have no excuse.
Do the same thing the big dev teams do. Take time and care, and build up the game one step at a time instead of trying to get all the content in as fast as possible regardless of quality. If other small indie teams with even fewer resources can make professional looking products, SV have no excuse.
IN the mmo genre? who? CCP released a crappy product, so did Nevrex, so did AV, What indy developer released a quality product right out the gate? I'm sure if more did then we wouldnt waste our time with SV right now.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Do the same thing the big dev teams do. Take time and care, and build up the game one step at a time instead of trying to get all the content in as fast as possible regardless of quality. If other small indie teams with even fewer resources can make professional looking products, SV have no excuse.
IN the mmo genre? who? CCP released a crappy product, so did Nevrex, so did AV, What indy developer released a quality product right out the gate? I'm sure if more did then we wouldnt waste our time with SV right now.
I'd like to play shortstop for the NY Yankees. Unfortunately my ballplaying ability doesn't support that. So I stick to playing softball with friends on the weekends. It's no more a "right" of SV to make a sandbox MMO as their first product than it is for me to play for the Yankees simply because I'm a fan and would love to do so. People, and companies, need to function within their means. For SV that probably meant designing and publishing a game or two before trying to start on an ambitious project like MO.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Do the same thing the big dev teams do. Take time and care, and build up the game one step at a time instead of trying to get all the content in as fast as possible regardless of quality. If other small indie teams with even fewer resources can make professional looking products, SV have no excuse.
IN the mmo genre? who? CCP released a crappy product, so did Nevrex, so did AV, What indy developer released a quality product right out the gate? I'm sure if more did then we wouldnt waste our time with SV right now.
I'd like to play shortstop for the NY Yankees. Unfortunately my ballplaying ability doesn't support that. So I stick to playing softball with friends on the weekends. It's no more a "right" of SV to make a sandbox MMO as their first product than it is for me to play for the Yankees simply because I'm a fan and would love to do so. People, and companies, need to function within their means. For SV that probably meant designing and publishing a game or two before trying to start on an ambitious project like MO.
Ill agree with that. I mean a little experience with online gaming would have been nice huh?
Anyway... The game is still in Beta, its pretty terrible but we have no idea if the core group of players will keep the game afloat and one day MO could be a really solid game.
Will it be the UO 2 we've been waiting for? probably not but I'm keeping a wait and see attitude on this whole situation.
I've played enough sandbox indy products to know that you don't just give up on a game if the Beta is rocky.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I love how OP attempts to tell people how they should spend their money.
I "invested" in Mortal by purchasing a pre-order because there is nobody else willing to make me this type of game. Either I dont play MMO's or I give a company $65 to try to make a game thats going in the opposite direction of the industry. If you are content with AAA polished games that pat you on the back for being able to read and offer no consequences or risks of any kind then congratulations because that is where the industry is - and continues to go. I personally miss the days of deep complex systems that take weeks to understand, I miss games that once you fuck up - your rewarded with a swift kick to the head. While I play EVE on and off (its a decent game) I still continue to look for something that will capture me better and MO's potential is VERY fit and in fact many of their ideas even continue to impress me. I understand that they are not the most experienced devs but everyone needs to learn sometime and as things have been going, devs come - devs go. Since I am not playing any other MMO's currently (nothing on the horizon interests me either), I will give Mortal my money in the hopes that in the next year or two us neglected gamers can have our fun also.
You really don't read the posts, you just make up your own content so you can get all bombastic about it. Why, I don't know... but that's a different story entirely. Here, I'll help you.
And if you want to invest into a game like MO feel free -- it's your money after all -- but don't be surprised when the game folds shortly after launch due to too many problems for an inept development team to handle, and all the hours you spent are gone to waste.
Excellent post OP, very well put.
A crappy game wont become good just by throwing money at it. If the people behind it are not competent and do not have a good bussiness plan then the game will not be a success.
What worse is that games like Mortal Online and Darkfall will be an example for why not creating sandbox FFA PvP game due to their very low subscriber base scaring investors away.
This is NOT a debate over Themeparks vs Sandbox or PvP vs Carebear. It is over if you should spend money on a crappy game or not.
I would love to play another pre trammel UO or Asherons Call DT but Darkfall was not it and, from what I have seen, neither will Mortal Online be. They are just plain poor games, sandbox or themepark is irrelevant because these two games just are not any good.
My gaming blog
This is exactly my fear and driving force in expressing my opinions of MO. I fear a company/group with the means and talent might question trying again. They may see the failure of previous "sandbox" FFA games as a failure of the genre. When in reality it was the failure of inept developers with just bad games. A good sandbox could easily stand on its own and be profitable, the key word being good.
I win!!! LOL@U
This is exactly my fear and driving force in expressing my opinions of MO. I fear a company/group with the means and talent might question trying again. They may see the failure of previous "sandbox" FFA games as a failure of the genre. When in reality it was the failure of inept developers with just bad games. A good sandbox could easily stand on its own and be profitable, the key word being good.
It's not easy to make a PvP game with full loot and consequences able to keep customers on a long term. Granted, it could be done, and I have some ideas of my own... but it's not without its own set of concerns. That said, SV clearly didn't bother to develop a business plan around MO, which is why it is having such a bad name right now -- in addition to the fact the game is broken, buggy, and boring.
You must not work in the software industry. It is my personal observation that 40% of all headcount on a software development project is DEAD WEIGHT -- mostly project managers. In the 23 years I've worked for software companies, I've seen this time and time again.
How does an indie company get it done with a smaller number of people? Easy -- don't hire dead weight!
In fact, it should be easier to identify who isn't keeping up on a smaller team.
~~ postlarval ~~
... and more speculation. Using scare tactics to prevent purchases has been your tactic for months now; when the old posts turn invalid you make up new ones to replace them. I like the guys at SV, communication through the IRC and forums has been outstanding to the point where I have trust in them. I can pm a dev or talk to them on IRC about game design or concerns and I most always get feedback, something I have never experienced before. I do acknowledge issues with the development process but I have no idea (I try not to speculate without facts) where the issues are. I do believe that any business (especially small companies) are capable of recognizing internal problems and making changes to prevent it from reoccuring. Live and learn as they say.
It's hard to take a definite stand on this one. Logic says you're right, but feelings say you're only mostly right. I keep saying the same thing, that if a company, indie or not, wants to make an MMO, they have to compete in the MMO market. There's no "junior playground" for indie games to test the waters; once they release, they're thrown in with the sharks. The only people who will play them are dedicated fans or people who don't mind a rough lump of coal because they can see the faint glint of a diamond hidden inside.
I can't help but wonder what would happen if more people thought like you when EVE released. I doubt the game would've ever gotten off the ground, and then where would sandboxes be? Even worse off than they are now. EVE is the sandbox's champion right now, and for good reason - CCP is a good company and, even though the game was crap at release, enough people decided to pay for it. Maybe some of them wanted to support an indie company and decided to give the game some slack, but I think most people just saw a lot of potential. In MO's case, though, I think it's too broken. People can invest on what the game could be if they want to.
Basically, at least until Earthrise comes out (if it's good), sandbox lovers are screwed. They don't want to support the evil themepark, but they also can't degrade themselves enough to play the crappy sandbox games that are around (or they think EVE is too boring or Darkfall is too focused on FFA PvP). Hell, even if Earthrise turns out to be the answer to everyone's prayers and is a super awesome sandbox, there will be excuses not to play it. Whatever happens, I have to agree that defending indie companies because they're indie is not smart. Cutting them a little slack with your own personal expectations? Sure, that's probably a good idea, since, realistically, they can't compete with the big boys. Like Hercules ultimately said, spend your money on whatever you want. I just want Hercules to remember EVE, though.
Yet DF is anything but just a Gankfest. Try the game in its current state please it's actually very good. The people that kept that game going did a service the the mmo genre.
At its current time not many mmos are as good as DFO.
With that said sometimes this is the type of hate you attract when you promise big things as a indy sandbox developer. Both AV and SV didn't live up to it and you people certainly wont get off your hate wagons to actually reevaluate DF to see it as the good game it is.
Sorry but NO.
Just So Ya Know
on top of all the other problems Mortal Online has - IT IS NOT A SANDBOX GAME
now there are many definisions for this but
MO as it currently stands with its limited skill points crams you so hard into a specific role you can't so much as wiggle a pinky
fighter mage?
nope
crafter gatherer?
nope
animal tamer crafter?
weird, but nope
magic user and absolutely anything else?
nope
ya get the gist - it does go on
Please elaborate, provide some bullets about what you believe to be poor about the game. I'm sincerely interested. Allgames have their faults, but DF has weathered a tough storm over the past year and came through the fog looking pretty good; this from a guy that is from Pre-Trammel UO.
...just...wow.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
...just...wow.
Can you tell im tired of poser mmorpg players trying to tell me what a sandbox should be when they really started the genre in the kiddie box (wow)?
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP