"As for taking CCPs word for anything you can call me a tin foil hat but they were caught cheating and helping certain alliances cheat in EVE. When confronted they denied it until the evidence was displayed for all by an independent whistle blower that got abused and banned. Then they admitted to what they had to but failed to keep to their promise of firing any staff if caught cheating. That wasn't just me hallucinating and wearing a tin foil hat was it? That's why CCP can say what they want and I won't believe it until I see evidence" Here we go again, way off the deep end, conspiracy theories enveloping the ether. Well sorry to burst your bubble, but any intelligent being knows what you wrote is complete nonsense. Anyone thinking CCP helps out alliances has lost it. You probably have bought the Brooklyn bridge multiple times.
Sure there are bots in EVE, just like any other MMO, I have to agree with the article that CCP does a far better job containing them, then most MMO teams. Try playing a NCSoft title sometime if you want to see the difference.
If you don't like EVE or CCP don't play their game, but please keep your Orwellian theories to yourself .
So I'm a crazy conspiracy theorist am I, well what is this then click ? Am I still just a mad man that is hallucinating and dreamed up what happened? Oh and this is what they were caught red handed doing, long term hardcore players of EVE all know what the real deal is and that this has been rampant since day one and continues to this day.
So is it all "complete nonsense" have I "lost it"? Because CCP themselves including the chairman admit to it so I guess they're crazy too? Better send them an email and tell them to retract their statements as it's all just the babblings of some crazy orwellian fantasy!
EDIT: gotta love the part he offers an alliance buddy a job at CCP even after he'd been "reprimanded" by the company for cheating!
Dude gives us a break already that cheating shit happened years ago and its long forgotten by the people that matter.
As for your criticisms of Eves Plex system If AV decided to let players farm currency for free game time in DF you would be doing back flips so hush.
So I'm a crazy conspiracy theorist am I, well what is this then click ? Am I still just a mad man that is hallucinating and dreamed up what happened? Oh and this is what they were caught red handed doing, long term hardcore players of EVE all know what the real deal is and that this has been rampant since day one and continues to this day. So is it all "complete nonsense" have I "lost it"? Because CCP themselves including the chairman admit to it so I guess they're crazy too? Better send them an email and tell them to retract their statements as it's all just the babblings of some crazy orwellian fantasy! EDIT: gotta love the part he offers an alliance buddy a job at CCP even after he'd been "reprimanded" by the company for cheating!
I'm all for well informed debate and what not, but looking at the article, the date 9 February 2007 10:36 am, stands out at the top. Since that incident I believe various mechanisms and oversight have been implemented to attempt to prevent this in the future. Now, as we compare EvE's battle against RMT to other games, we can look no further then WoW to see another game where a GM interrefered to the benefit of a guild. I don't remember the exact parties involved and will try to update it, but basically a GM mailed a guild master a weapon that basically one-shots anything. Now certainly, the architecture and economy of WoW would not be so impacted as a single-shard game, but that is not really the point. Shit happens and individuals make mistakes. So long as the company attempts to address the mistakes of the individuals then they are on the right track.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Sure there are bots in EVE, just like any other MMO, I have to agree with the article that CCP does a far better job containing them, then most MMO teams. Try playing a NCSoft title sometime if you want to see the difference.
Probably eve is different from ncsoft titles and botters separetad to thousands systems and this is giving an illusion to people ?Best place to see macroers ice belts /belts certain low sec systems with agents giving hauling missions (go check arzi /ingunn /Jovainnon known places , ppl bored to killing macroers even dont shoot them now )
CCP should ban players who buy ISK with real money on the first offense. That will make players think twice about buying isk.
And then put a banner or something on their website, where it's clearly visible, saying : you will be banned the first time we catch you buying ISK! or something like that XD
Shit does happen, all that happened was that on that occasion they were caught. Most long term players know it happened alot in the past especially at player events where some of the most obvious and vulgar cheating happened and it still continues. Just because someone hasn't been caught doesn't mean they didn't do it and on average a criminal has got away with 6 crimes before he's caught for one.
Saying it was one guy that got caught 3 years ago and it never happened before or since is very naive, long term players have witnessed it on many occaisions just that someone wasn't able to expose them like that guy.
If Aventurine started a similar system as with plex I'd leave because you'd need massive safe zones like EVE to make it profitable and allow the use of 23hr botting for both sides to make it work. It would turn Darkfall into a F2P RMT carebear turd and I'd be gone.
The issue isn't about my game or your game it's about an obviously corrupt company that was caught in the past telling me about how they're trying to stamp out botting and RMT when they're the main dealers in buying/selling ISK and refuse to stop the botting when they could.
It's like Bill Gates saying he wants to reduce the sales of Windows 7 and stamp it out and keep windows XP as the most popular operating system. It just doesn't make sense and his actions say otherwise.
If CCP stopped the botting today they would sell alot less plex and lose alot of money and subscribers reducing the subscribed accounts by atleast half. Why would they do that? Myself I don't care but when they make statements to the press about how they're trying to put themselves out of business and people believe it I feel the need to speak out.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Shit does happen, all that happened was that on that occasion they were caught. Most long term players know it happened alot in the past especially at player events where some of the most obvious and vulgar cheating happened and it still continues. Just because someone hasn't been caught doesn't mean they didn't do it and on average a criminal has got away with 6 crimes before he's caught for one. Saying it was one guy that got caught 3 years ago and it never happened before or since is very naive, long term players have witnessed it on many occaisions just that someone wasn't able to expose them like that guy. If Aventurine started a similar system as with plex I'd leave because you'd need massive safe zones like EVE to make it profitable and allow the use of 23hr botting for both sides to make it work. It would turn Darkfall into a F2P RMT carebear turd and I'd be gone. The issue isn't about my game or your game it's about an obviously corrupt company that was caught in the past telling me about how they're trying to stamp out botting and RMT when they're the main dealers in buying/selling ISK and refuse to stop the botting when they could. It's like Bill Gates saying he wants to reduce the sales of Windows 7 and stamp it out and keep windows XP as the most popular operating system. It just doesn't make sense and his actions say otherwise. If CCP stopped the botting today they would sell alot less plex and lose alot of money and subscribers reducing the subscribed accounts by atleast half. Why would they do that? Myself I don't care but when they make statements to the press about how they're trying to put themselves out of business and people believe it I feel the need to speak out.
I don't think anyone has really said cheating has never/will never happen. As I said, CCP has set up internal mechanics to try to prevent the possiblity and impact. Will it be 100% effective, probably not, but I haven't really noticed a significant blunder since that incident. There are still people involved in the process after all. That said, DF is no less susceptible. Neither is WoW or any other game that has to put faith in their employees.
Despite the cheating incident, I think CCP is pretty forthright with their customer base. This is not the perception of a new comer to the game. I haven't played as long as some, but I've been playing a little while and followed the game for about a year before starting up (curse all that SP I missed out on :P). I was not directly impacted by the t20 deal so perhaps that plays into my view of the incident and CCPs behavior since.
I not sure I get the leap in logic that stopping botting will lead to half of the games accounts leaving due to reduced sales of PLEX. That seems like an awfully opinion based assumption more so then a sound theory at this point. My line of thinking (read: opinion based assumption) would be that bots would be consumers of PLEX and therefore, a reduced demand for PLEX in game would reduce the price some resulting in more people being able to afford it and potentially more people bring alts online as a result. As with the EvE economy, the imbalance would sort out sooner or later, but I don't see it triggering a mass exodus.
Ultimately, I'm not out to change your mind. I just disagree with your assessment
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I have to agree with Agricola here, I play eve and run 2 accounts and very much enjoy the game. I also pay for my game time by buying plexes as I make enough isk in-game.
But, realistically, PLEX system is nothing other then a RMT shop and probably the worst kind because you are not limited to buying fluff items with your real cash, like in many other games. The only reason there is no outcry is because older and generally more vocal players are profitting from it. I like the system because I have had times when Eve bored me and in teh past I used ghost training to keep my character learning. Now when I get bored of EVE I just make enough isk to buy a few months of PLEXes and set a long skill. Log back in after 25-30 days, change to another skill and wait until I get the urge to play again.
It is an RMT shop pure and simple, it gives RL rich people an adavantage (this is generally the problem with RMT), but I like it because I dont PVP and am not competitive in-game so it doesnt bother me - I get to train and play for free. If you are competitive then it will probably annoy you, especially if you are into industry as you can raise the initial capital quicker by selling plexes and probably make your money back quicker then it takes someone to grind all the isk to get their industry operation going.
CCP knows this and that is probably why they are doing all th ePR in th eopposite direction. Its a smart thing to do and considering what they are investing all that money into (Incarna and Planetary Interaction) I cant say I want them to change.
What is the advantage? Instant ISK? They can't train to use ships or weapons any faster then the less rich player so how are they getting an unfair advantage. If anything, it levels the field between those who can spend hours grinding for isk and those who can't play as often.
The alternative is an unregulated system like we see across the industry right? We see in other games the results and they generally include a large number of compromised accounts it seems. If anything else, keeping this in house and typing it to account time is a pretty unique and, in my opinion, smart approach.
Now if I could buy a "potion of super fast xp getting" or "blaster of one-shotting a battle ship", then I could agree that it would be quite a different story.
But again, purely my opinion. I've heard people say it's bad and people say it's great. I fall somewhere on the "pretty decent" side of the fence so just trying to understand the other point of view while trying to articulate mine.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I have to agree with Agricola here, I play eve and run 2 accounts and very much enjoy the game. I also pay for my game time by buying plexes as I make enough isk in-game. But, realistically, PLEX system is nothing other then a RMT shop and probably the worst kind because you are not limited to buying fluff items with your real cash, like in many other games. The only reason there is no outcry is because older and generally more vocal players are profitting from it. I like the system because I have had times when Eve bored me and in teh past I used ghost training to keep my character learning. Now when I get bored of EVE I just make enough isk to buy a few months of PLEXes and set a long skill. Log back in after 25-30 days, change to another skill and wait until I get the urge to play again. It is an RMT shop pure and simple, it gives RL rich people an adavantage (this is generally the problem with RMT), but I like it because I dont PVP and am not competitive in-game so it doesnt bother me - I get to train and play for free. If you are competitive then it will probably annoy you, especially if you are into industry as you can raise the initial capital quicker by selling plexes and probably make your money back quicker then it takes someone to grind all the isk to get their industry operation going. CCP knows this and that is probably why they are doing all th ePR in th eopposite direction. Its a smart thing to do and considering what they are investing all that money into (Incarna and Planetary Interaction) I cant say I want them to change.
Dude the money you get from selling a plex is about the same a level 4 mission runner could make in a day or two of farming.
Its put in place for three reasons to kill off third party RMT, Help causals make a bit of isk if they can't log in all day and to give people that may not have cash to pay for a sub a way to do that through gameplay.
I see no problem with this. 275mill per plex is nothing.
Shit does happen, all that happened was that on that occasion they were caught. Most long term players know it happened alot in the past especially at player events where some of the most obvious and vulgar cheating happened and it still continues. Just because someone hasn't been caught doesn't mean they didn't do it and on average a criminal has got away with 6 crimes before he's caught for one. Saying it was one guy that got caught 3 years ago and it never happened before or since is very naive, long term players have witnessed it on many occaisions just that someone wasn't able to expose them like that guy. If Aventurine started a similar system as with plex I'd leave because you'd need massive safe zones like EVE to make it profitable and allow the use of 23hr botting for both sides to make it work. It would turn Darkfall into a F2P RMT carebear turd and I'd be gone. The issue isn't about my game or your game it's about an obviously corrupt company that was caught in the past telling me about how they're trying to stamp out botting and RMT when they're the main dealers in buying/selling ISK and refuse to stop the botting when they could. It's like Bill Gates saying he wants to reduce the sales of Windows 7 and stamp it out and keep windows XP as the most popular operating system. It just doesn't make sense and his actions say otherwise. If CCP stopped the botting today they would sell alot less plex and lose alot of money and subscribers reducing the subscribed accounts by atleast half. Why would they do that? Myself I don't care but when they make statements to the press about how they're trying to put themselves out of business and people believe it I feel the need to speak out.
You have no proof that CCP has done anything since.
I also consider it a "pretty decent" solution but there are advantages to rl rich players.
Isk is not totally instant as it takes time to sell the plexes but if you were agressive with the prices you could raise alot of isk quickly. You are right that your skills grow at a certain pace but you do reach a point where you have skills to do things and not enough isk to be able to. Grinding enough money to buy and equip a Marauder for example will take you months but ok having one is no big deal really. However having a carrier or a freighter or buying towers, and other starbase structures is a huge investment in the billions of isk. Such capital investements help drastically increase your isk earning potential in Eve and buying them by selling Plexes can be the best approach. Generally this is done by corporations and a few people working together but now you dont really have to do it that way, you can solo.
Also lets say an alliance had its fleet destroyed while defending its space, would you not in desparation resort to asking corp members to sell a few PLEXes to replenish (of course infrastructure permitting).
Not to mention what it can do to the free market that eve is so proud of, but that is very complex and I probably don't understand all the intricacies.
I also consider it a "pretty decent" solution but there are advantages to rl rich players. Isk is not totally instant as it takes time to sell the plexes but if you were agressive with the prices you could raise alot of isk quickly. You are right that your skills grow at a certain pace but you do reach a point where you have skills to do things and not enough isk to be able to. Grinding enough money to buy and equip a Marauder for example will take you months but ok having one is no big deal really. However having a carrier or a freighter or buying towers, and other starbase structures is a huge investment in the billions of isk. Such capital investements help drastically increase your isk earning potential in Eve and buying them by selling Plexes can be the best approach. Generally this is done by corporations and a few people working together but now you dont really have to do it that way, you can solo. Also lets say an alliance had its fleet destroyed while defending its space, would you not in desparation resort to asking corp members to sell a few PLEXes to replenish (of course infrastructure permitting). Not to mention what it can do to the free market that eve is so proud of, but that is very complex and I probably don't understand all the intricacies.
Instant was a poor choice of wording I suppose. With good pricing you do stand to make a chunk of ISK quickly and that's what I was trying to relay. Since everyone tends to earn ISK at a different rate, I'm not really going to say it would be quick or slow to purchase a certain ship and fit it out. PLEX does go a ways toward equalizing the time between players who can grind versus those who don't have the time, but naturally that implies that the more casual player can afford the PLEX so there is certainly a financial assumption. But, how is that different then the financial assumption made by them going to an unregulated source of ISK purchasing? Alternately, you could see PLEX as a way for a less-fortunate player to be able to afford to play at all. So, rather then conferring an advantage solely to the well-off player, it also provides opportunity to others.
Going back to the original idea a bit, PLEX and having it tied to game time seems like a very good approach to mitigating the impact of farmers/botters. Alone, it certainly isn't a silver bullet, but as part of a more comprehensive approach, I think it is a strong piece of the puzzle.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Ok I think that we are discussing slightly different things, your point is if I am understanding correctly that RMT in itself might equalize the playing field between casuals and players with more time. While I use RMT in a sense that I want people to sell PLEXes so I can play for free, I generally consider it a bad thing for a number of reasons that I dont really want to get into here.
I was considering how EVE's approach may or may not be problematic for EVE and what happens in game as a result. Whether RMT in general equalizes things I am not sure. But I do feel that it creates imbalances within the world of Eve, however, whether creating those imbalances is justified by equalizing the playing field for casuals is a tricky question. I would probably be on the "no it doesn't side", if its decided that players who invest more time in playing the game are somehow disadvantaged in relation to those who don't play as much but have rl money to buy things.
put simply - those who play more, smarter and harder should not have it eroded by outside of the game influences
Ok I think that we are discussing slightly different things, your point is if I am understanding correctly that RMT in itself might equalize the playing field between casuals and players with more time. While I use RMT in a sense that I want people to sell PLEXes so I can play for free, I generally consider it a bad thing for a number of reasons that I dont really want to get into here. I was considering how EVE's approach may or may not be problematic for EVE and what happens in game as a result. Whether RMT in general equalizes things I am not sure. But I do feel that it creates imbalances within the world of Eve, however, whether creating those imbalances is justified by equalizing the playing field for casuals is a tricky question. I would probably be on the "no it doesn't side", if its decided that players who invest more time in playing the game are somehow disadvantaged in relation to those who don't play as much but have rl money to buy things.
One of the points I got form your previous post was that rich people had an advantage under the plex system. My argument would be that people with more time benefit from the plex system, people who otherwise cannot afford/justify the monthly sub benefit, and those who have spare cash benefit.
Being as the PLEX system is available to all, I don't think it creates a significant imbalance in the game as it has become a part of the market and we don't generally see significant fluctuations (PLEX aid for Haiti might be an exception as sales might have peaked).
My overall point is that PLEX is a good tool, as part of a larger set of tools, for trying to fight RMT. Obviously it is not perfect and no company has yet found a perfect solution. I imagine DF might be pretty good as there is no, or at least very little, safe area for a gold seller to do their business. That would be a significant change in mechanics for any other game though and would drift away from what those games are trying to be, so I don't think that is a viable industry wide solution.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I tend to look at things more in a positive light.
Plex lets players in this tough economic time play an amazing mmo for free and it lets limited time players enjoy a slight bump in currency to go along with their offline skill training.
We can bitch all day about Rich rl players having unlimited income but when it comes down to it, the amount of Isk or skills a player has means nothing in Eve if you suck.
I not sure I get the leap in logic that stopping botting will lead to half of the games accounts leaving due to reduced sales of PLEX. That seems like an awfully opinion based assumption more so then a sound theory at this point. My line of thinking (read: opinion based assumption) would be that bots would be consumers of PLEX and therefore, a reduced demand for PLEX in game would reduce the price some resulting in more people being able to afford it and potentially more people bring alts online as a result. As with the EvE economy, the imbalance would sort out sooner or later, but I don't see it triggering a mass exodus.
Ultimately, I'm not out to change your mind. I just disagree with your assessment
Situation:
Well the way I see it is that to purchase in game ISK I buy a game time card from CCP and convert it into plex and sell it for ISK or any other item I wish. So CCP isn't directly selling ISK but is selling me the means with which to purchase it utilising the system they have built into their game for this very purpose.
So we have CCP using a rather convoluted system with which to sell ISK. You purchase game time from us and you can turn it into plex in game and sell it for ISK or trade it for items with other players.
Next is the guy that's purchasing, I go to a website and download a macro mining or mission programme. I purchase 3 EVE accounts and set them off 23/7 macro mining or running missions or ratting. With the proceeds I can easily get enough ISK in a week or two to pay for my 3 bots and my fourth main account and pay to equip it for PvP. All I need to do is each patch download the bot update, CCP will not prevent you from botting unless you brag about it in local or on their forums.
EDIT: Forgot to mention the practice of purchasing plex and selling it for RL money with this system just incase it passed you by.
So the customer is using bots to buy plex for all his accounts and pay to equip out the main char.
CCP action:
OK so CCP aren't doing anything against botting other than talk. If CCP stopped the botting they would sell atleast 50% less plex, why?
Atleast half of the entire EVE population is alts used for botting, ask someone who's been playing a few years. I've known guys running 16 botting accounts, 50% is a small number in my opinion it's probably more but I'll say half for the sake of argument. Those bots are banned then they don't need plex for them, there are less customers for plex so less people purchase it from CCP resulting in CCP lose money.
Conclusion:
In short the bottom would drop out of the market for plex. CCP would lose a minimum of half of it's income, so why would they do that? They don't of course but they put on a smoke and mirrors show for gamers because RMT and botting is frowned upon in P2P games universaly.
Also if those bots were taken away today the amazing EVE economy that CCP gets so moist about advertising would crash and have hyper inflation that would make Zimbabwe's economy look like a capatalist utopia! Something all those egg heads talking about analyzing the EVE market never consider, it's like credit in a real economy but EVE will just keep it going. Stamping out the botters would burst the bubble and the game would die.
CCP could do alot more against botting but it'd wreck their RMT system and have dtrimental effects on the in game economy and subscription levels. So they don't, they have all the bot programs and could easily have a third party program checking for it but don't.
My problem:
My problem isn't with EVE or the people that use the system. You like EVE and enjoy buying/selling plex and botting? Fine by me. My problem is when a bunch of suits from a company come along and try playing us all for a bunch of dumb saps. CCP lost all their credibility 3 years ago and this proves they still have none today. Telling me they're against RMT and macro mining/mission running/ratting and are doing their best to stop it. It makes me angry being treated like a child by these twerps who've gotten away with cheating everyone in EVE many times before.
If they just admit they're running a the most successful RMT in any MMORPG right now and frown on botting but don't want to be too heavy handed with it then fine. But telling me they're whiter than white (again) and are against the evil RMT and are doing their best to rid the server of the evil botters is just taking the ****!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
I don't play anything other then Eve so could't comment on how it could work in other games. I agree that it is not an industry wide solution if for so many different games there can be an industry wide solution. I would think as many games use many different mechanics the solution should be sought outside of the game and not by adjusting things in-game.
Eve as far as I understand is built on the premise of competition, whether it is trade, industry, space holding, pvp and introducing systems which erode or make this basic premise not true can be problematic in the long term. You ask yourself as a player what is the point if someone can just buy what i worked for ingame and nullify my advantage.
Effectively CCP is saying - RMT will happen so lets control it by implementing it ourselves, I would argue against that approach for reasons already mentioned. They need to work towards gaining more control over what happens in game in order to spot and eliminate RMT, and to be fair they are also doing that. Large transfers of isk are looked at , etc. That for me is a good way but there are probably others also.
Rockgodd I am not taking it personally in any way, i am not a competitive eve player, I am am a carebear living in a C6 wormhole running my industry operation and paying for my alts with PLEX. I enjoy Eve very much
Agricola1, you've generally made some intelligent posts in the past, but you are doing what you would find fault with others doing. Your numbers are not backed up by anything and we have CCP that has published numbers detailing multiple account holders and such. From my recollection, they directly contradict what you are saying. Now, if you can post the sources of your information, by all means, I would not be able to find any fault with your assumptions then. Until such time, you are telling me the sky is falling when, by all indications, that is not the case.
So, lets look at the fact you think CCP is playing everyone for fools. What do they gain? This is a conference where developers can talk amongst each other and not really a marketing campaign. in addition to this, the material discussed seems to be more a summary of what EvE has done and are doing and not something that says "hey we fixed all RMT eva!!!". Instead it seems to confer that they are working on an ongoing issue which is a very practical approach. If we look at it, a subject matter expert spoke about virtual economies and methods they've implemented to combat unregulated RMT. This is not "whiter then white" and doesn't seem to profess to be. I guess it just a matter of interpretation...
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Rockgodd I am not taking it personally in any way, i am not a competitive eve player, I am am a carebear living in a C6 wormhole running my industry operation and paying for my alts with PLEX. I enjoy Eve very much
Im sorry bro i wasn't targeting you. Damn thing wouldnt quote the intended poster. sorry
I don't play anything other then Eve so could't comment on how it could work in other games. I agree that it is not an industry wide solution if for so many different games there can be an industry wide solution. I would think as many games use many different mechanics the solution should be sought outside of the game and not by adjusting things in-game. Eve as far as I understand is built on the premise of competition, whether it is trade, industry, space holding, pvp and introducing systems which erode or make this basic premise not true can be problematic in the long term. You ask yourself as a player what is the point if someone can just buy what i worked for ingame and nullify my advantage. Effectively CCP is saying - RMT will happen so lets control it by implementing it ourselves, I would argue against that approach for reasons already mentioned. They need to work towards gaining more control over what happens in game in order to spot and eliminate RMT, and to be fair they are also doing that. Large transfers of isk are looked at , etc. That for me is a good way but there are probably others also.
This is where I think we'll end up going in circles. I don't believe someone can just buy what I worked for. If I am a miner, they need to train up to the same ship, mining lasers, and crystals I am using which takes the same amount of time assuming same attribute mapping and implants. If I am industry, they still need a POS and production lines to work with. So maybe they can use PLEX to pay for POS fuel, minerals, and such, but I can accomplish similar working with my corp. They also still need to train skills for the same amount of time. PvP, training skills for the same amount of time. Space holding, training skills for the same amount of time....you get the pattern though.
Ultimately, I respect your view of it and my view isn't too far off. Just a few points we don't see eye to eye on. But, by the sounds of it, seems like we are both enjoying the game regardless and, RMT or not, that's the goal right?
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
ok so CCP let you use ingame currency to pay for your account is a bad thing? You say it hurts the pvp of a game being able to buy these plex's which ide have to say I disagree with. First things first these plex's cost about 35 euros for 2 which will get you around 300 mil for each of them so you could maybe buy 2 HAC's or a couple battleships(including fittings) .
First thing I want to draw attention to is the price can you really see people buying loads of these plex's like candy because i can't unless your rich as hell in which case why arnt you skydiving with models or something cool like that...
Anway back to why they are good imagine you log on for the first time in a couple weeks feel like going for some pvp but are low on isk and dont feel like running missions for a couple days to get the isk you need so you quickly buy a plex fit a bunch of ships and fly off and have fun all night with your corp. Not to mention all the people who are also looking for a battle for hours that never get 1 that thanks to you now have a fight on their hands.
Now if plex's didnt exist you might have been tempted to buy the ISK from a random site wake up the next morning to find yourself banned years of playing down the drain so you swear vengeance on CCP, get arrested 5 ft from ccp's office with a gun and your life is over ah well nvm
We can also look from the point of view of the poor unemployed man cant get a job to save his life and has decided to dedicate himself to playing eve but can't really afford to pay the 12quid a month to play but thanks to his horde of ISK he has gathered doesnt have to pay a penney and can keep playing his favourite game
Agricola1, you've generally made some intelligent posts in the past, but you are doing what you would find fault with others doing. Your numbers are not backed up by anything and we have CCP that has published numbers detailing multiple account holders and such. From my recollection, they directly contradict what you are saying. Now, if you can post the sources of your information, by all means, I would not be able to find any fault with your assumptions then. Until such time, you are telling me the sky is falling when, by all indications, that is not the case. So, lets look at the fact you think CCP is playing everyone for fools. What do they gain? This is a conference where developers can talk amongst each other and not really a marketing campaign. in addition to this, the material discussed seems to be more a summary of what EvE has done and are doing and not something that says "hey we fixed all RMT eva!!!". Instead it seems to confer that they are working on an ongoing issue which is a very practical approach. If we look at it, a subject matter expert spoke about virtual economies and methods they've implemented to combat unregulated RMT. This is not "whiter then white" and doesn't seem to profess to be. I guess it just a matter of interpretation...
You're right I don't have any evidence towards the figures and am just going off my experience in game so yes I accept that I could well be totally wrong. I'm not saying those figures are a stone cold fact just a best guess for a guy that used to play and has friends still playing it. Sorry if it came over different.
Yes they're talking about combating unregulated RMT but my point is that talk is cheap. After 7 years all they've done is introduced plex to basically cut out the middle man and take the profit themselves. My point is that this makes RMT worse, my analogy of the crack dealer was to point out no matter who takes over the crack dealing be it an illegal party or the goverment after legalizing it, the problems of crack abuse still remain do they not?
Which is what I'm pointing out here, removing "unregulated RMT" by means of plex doesn't remove the problems it causes nor make the game better. It has merely caused RMT to proliferate and amplified the problems and gripes it causes as a gamer. It has also put CCP in the position now that botting is making them more than just extra subscriptions. The profits from most botting activities comes through them at some point now with CCP getting their cut of the action so to speak.
This causes a massive dilema, they're running a business. Stop the botting and they lose the plex business, since they are the gold sellers now. Imagine a gold selling website starting a campaign against botting? Sounds crazy right? Well that is part of the EVE business model now and they're talking about how they want to stamp it out?
If the best they can do after 7 years is come up with plex I doubt they're gonna prevent botting anytime soon. The problems still remain with people with RL cash getting a leg up and so forth, what next the selling of chars? That is the only unregulated RMT business still going that they haven't muscled in on yet. Also EVE is supposedly a P2P where this kind of thing just shouldn't go on.
It just makes me sick when they do this then say they're trying to stop botters and so forth when in the last 7 years they never have and never will now due to being an RMT site with plex now.
I know it's "just a game" but I don't like to play with cheats, liars and gold sellers and that's why I don't play EVE.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Yes I see your and goosehs points and agree there are plus sides to it, hell as I said I use it myself and definitely wouldn't have that many alts going if there was no Plex system. All I can say is there are things I would like to own that I have skills for but not enough isk.
hehe, getting arrested outside of CCPs office comment shows how serious spaceship pixels can become if not treated with care
Comments
So I'm a crazy conspiracy theorist am I, well what is this then click ? Am I still just a mad man that is hallucinating and dreamed up what happened? Oh and this is what they were caught red handed doing, long term hardcore players of EVE all know what the real deal is and that this has been rampant since day one and continues to this day.
So is it all "complete nonsense" have I "lost it"? Because CCP themselves including the chairman admit to it so I guess they're crazy too? Better send them an email and tell them to retract their statements as it's all just the babblings of some crazy orwellian fantasy!
EDIT: gotta love the part he offers an alliance buddy a job at CCP even after he'd been "reprimanded" by the company for cheating!
Dude gives us a break already that cheating shit happened years ago and its long forgotten by the people that matter.
As for your criticisms of Eves Plex system If AV decided to let players farm currency for free game time in DF you would be doing back flips so hush.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I'm all for well informed debate and what not, but looking at the article, the date 9 February 2007 10:36 am, stands out at the top. Since that incident I believe various mechanisms and oversight have been implemented to attempt to prevent this in the future. Now, as we compare EvE's battle against RMT to other games, we can look no further then WoW to see another game where a GM interrefered to the benefit of a guild. I don't remember the exact parties involved and will try to update it, but basically a GM mailed a guild master a weapon that basically one-shots anything. Now certainly, the architecture and economy of WoW would not be so impacted as a single-shard game, but that is not really the point. Shit happens and individuals make mistakes. So long as the company attempts to address the mistakes of the individuals then they are on the right track.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Probably eve is different from ncsoft titles and botters separetad to thousands systems and this is giving an illusion to people ?Best place to see macroers ice belts /belts certain low sec systems with agents giving hauling missions (go check arzi /ingunn /Jovainnon known places , ppl bored to killing macroers even dont shoot them now )
www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp
www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp
CCP should ban players who buy ISK with real money on the first offense. That will make players think twice about buying isk.
And then put a banner or something on their website, where it's clearly visible, saying : you will be banned the first time we catch you buying ISK! or something like that XD
Shit does happen, all that happened was that on that occasion they were caught. Most long term players know it happened alot in the past especially at player events where some of the most obvious and vulgar cheating happened and it still continues. Just because someone hasn't been caught doesn't mean they didn't do it and on average a criminal has got away with 6 crimes before he's caught for one.
Saying it was one guy that got caught 3 years ago and it never happened before or since is very naive, long term players have witnessed it on many occaisions just that someone wasn't able to expose them like that guy.
If Aventurine started a similar system as with plex I'd leave because you'd need massive safe zones like EVE to make it profitable and allow the use of 23hr botting for both sides to make it work. It would turn Darkfall into a F2P RMT carebear turd and I'd be gone.
The issue isn't about my game or your game it's about an obviously corrupt company that was caught in the past telling me about how they're trying to stamp out botting and RMT when they're the main dealers in buying/selling ISK and refuse to stop the botting when they could.
It's like Bill Gates saying he wants to reduce the sales of Windows 7 and stamp it out and keep windows XP as the most popular operating system. It just doesn't make sense and his actions say otherwise.
If CCP stopped the botting today they would sell alot less plex and lose alot of money and subscribers reducing the subscribed accounts by atleast half. Why would they do that? Myself I don't care but when they make statements to the press about how they're trying to put themselves out of business and people believe it I feel the need to speak out.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
I don't think anyone has really said cheating has never/will never happen. As I said, CCP has set up internal mechanics to try to prevent the possiblity and impact. Will it be 100% effective, probably not, but I haven't really noticed a significant blunder since that incident. There are still people involved in the process after all. That said, DF is no less susceptible. Neither is WoW or any other game that has to put faith in their employees.
Despite the cheating incident, I think CCP is pretty forthright with their customer base. This is not the perception of a new comer to the game. I haven't played as long as some, but I've been playing a little while and followed the game for about a year before starting up (curse all that SP I missed out on :P). I was not directly impacted by the t20 deal so perhaps that plays into my view of the incident and CCPs behavior since.
I not sure I get the leap in logic that stopping botting will lead to half of the games accounts leaving due to reduced sales of PLEX. That seems like an awfully opinion based assumption more so then a sound theory at this point. My line of thinking (read: opinion based assumption) would be that bots would be consumers of PLEX and therefore, a reduced demand for PLEX in game would reduce the price some resulting in more people being able to afford it and potentially more people bring alts online as a result. As with the EvE economy, the imbalance would sort out sooner or later, but I don't see it triggering a mass exodus.
Ultimately, I'm not out to change your mind. I just disagree with your assessment
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I have to agree with Agricola here, I play eve and run 2 accounts and very much enjoy the game. I also pay for my game time by buying plexes as I make enough isk in-game.
But, realistically, PLEX system is nothing other then a RMT shop and probably the worst kind because you are not limited to buying fluff items with your real cash, like in many other games. The only reason there is no outcry is because older and generally more vocal players are profitting from it. I like the system because I have had times when Eve bored me and in teh past I used ghost training to keep my character learning. Now when I get bored of EVE I just make enough isk to buy a few months of PLEXes and set a long skill. Log back in after 25-30 days, change to another skill and wait until I get the urge to play again.
It is an RMT shop pure and simple, it gives RL rich people an adavantage (this is generally the problem with RMT), but I like it because I dont PVP and am not competitive in-game so it doesnt bother me - I get to train and play for free. If you are competitive then it will probably annoy you, especially if you are into industry as you can raise the initial capital quicker by selling plexes and probably make your money back quicker then it takes someone to grind all the isk to get their industry operation going.
CCP knows this and that is probably why they are doing all th ePR in th eopposite direction. Its a smart thing to do and considering what they are investing all that money into (Incarna and Planetary Interaction) I cant say I want them to change.
What is the advantage? Instant ISK? They can't train to use ships or weapons any faster then the less rich player so how are they getting an unfair advantage. If anything, it levels the field between those who can spend hours grinding for isk and those who can't play as often.
The alternative is an unregulated system like we see across the industry right? We see in other games the results and they generally include a large number of compromised accounts it seems. If anything else, keeping this in house and typing it to account time is a pretty unique and, in my opinion, smart approach.
Now if I could buy a "potion of super fast xp getting" or "blaster of one-shotting a battle ship", then I could agree that it would be quite a different story.
But again, purely my opinion. I've heard people say it's bad and people say it's great. I fall somewhere on the "pretty decent" side of the fence so just trying to understand the other point of view while trying to articulate mine.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Dude the money you get from selling a plex is about the same a level 4 mission runner could make in a day or two of farming.
Its put in place for three reasons to kill off third party RMT, Help causals make a bit of isk if they can't log in all day and to give people that may not have cash to pay for a sub a way to do that through gameplay.
I see no problem with this. 275mill per plex is nothing.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
You have no proof that CCP has done anything since.
So why bother crying about it?
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I also consider it a "pretty decent" solution but there are advantages to rl rich players.
Isk is not totally instant as it takes time to sell the plexes but if you were agressive with the prices you could raise alot of isk quickly. You are right that your skills grow at a certain pace but you do reach a point where you have skills to do things and not enough isk to be able to. Grinding enough money to buy and equip a Marauder for example will take you months but ok having one is no big deal really. However having a carrier or a freighter or buying towers, and other starbase structures is a huge investment in the billions of isk. Such capital investements help drastically increase your isk earning potential in Eve and buying them by selling Plexes can be the best approach. Generally this is done by corporations and a few people working together but now you dont really have to do it that way, you can solo.
Also lets say an alliance had its fleet destroyed while defending its space, would you not in desparation resort to asking corp members to sell a few PLEXes to replenish (of course infrastructure permitting).
Not to mention what it can do to the free market that eve is so proud of, but that is very complex and I probably don't understand all the intricacies.
Instant was a poor choice of wording I suppose. With good pricing you do stand to make a chunk of ISK quickly and that's what I was trying to relay. Since everyone tends to earn ISK at a different rate, I'm not really going to say it would be quick or slow to purchase a certain ship and fit it out. PLEX does go a ways toward equalizing the time between players who can grind versus those who don't have the time, but naturally that implies that the more casual player can afford the PLEX so there is certainly a financial assumption. But, how is that different then the financial assumption made by them going to an unregulated source of ISK purchasing? Alternately, you could see PLEX as a way for a less-fortunate player to be able to afford to play at all. So, rather then conferring an advantage solely to the well-off player, it also provides opportunity to others.
Going back to the original idea a bit, PLEX and having it tied to game time seems like a very good approach to mitigating the impact of farmers/botters. Alone, it certainly isn't a silver bullet, but as part of a more comprehensive approach, I think it is a strong piece of the puzzle.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Ok I think that we are discussing slightly different things, your point is if I am understanding correctly that RMT in itself might equalize the playing field between casuals and players with more time. While I use RMT in a sense that I want people to sell PLEXes so I can play for free, I generally consider it a bad thing for a number of reasons that I dont really want to get into here.
I was considering how EVE's approach may or may not be problematic for EVE and what happens in game as a result. Whether RMT in general equalizes things I am not sure. But I do feel that it creates imbalances within the world of Eve, however, whether creating those imbalances is justified by equalizing the playing field for casuals is a tricky question. I would probably be on the "no it doesn't side", if its decided that players who invest more time in playing the game are somehow disadvantaged in relation to those who don't play as much but have rl money to buy things.
put simply - those who play more, smarter and harder should not have it eroded by outside of the game influences
One of the points I got form your previous post was that rich people had an advantage under the plex system. My argument would be that people with more time benefit from the plex system, people who otherwise cannot afford/justify the monthly sub benefit, and those who have spare cash benefit.
Being as the PLEX system is available to all, I don't think it creates a significant imbalance in the game as it has become a part of the market and we don't generally see significant fluctuations (PLEX aid for Haiti might be an exception as sales might have peaked).
My overall point is that PLEX is a good tool, as part of a larger set of tools, for trying to fight RMT. Obviously it is not perfect and no company has yet found a perfect solution. I imagine DF might be pretty good as there is no, or at least very little, safe area for a gold seller to do their business. That would be a significant change in mechanics for any other game though and would drift away from what those games are trying to be, so I don't think that is a viable industry wide solution.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I tend to look at things more in a positive light.
Plex lets players in this tough economic time play an amazing mmo for free and it lets limited time players enjoy a slight bump in currency to go along with their offline skill training.
We can bitch all day about Rich rl players having unlimited income but when it comes down to it, the amount of Isk or skills a player has means nothing in Eve if you suck.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I not sure I get the leap in logic that stopping botting will lead to half of the games accounts leaving due to reduced sales of PLEX. That seems like an awfully opinion based assumption more so then a sound theory at this point. My line of thinking (read: opinion based assumption) would be that bots would be consumers of PLEX and therefore, a reduced demand for PLEX in game would reduce the price some resulting in more people being able to afford it and potentially more people bring alts online as a result. As with the EvE economy, the imbalance would sort out sooner or later, but I don't see it triggering a mass exodus.
Ultimately, I'm not out to change your mind. I just disagree with your assessment
Situation:
Well the way I see it is that to purchase in game ISK I buy a game time card from CCP and convert it into plex and sell it for ISK or any other item I wish. So CCP isn't directly selling ISK but is selling me the means with which to purchase it utilising the system they have built into their game for this very purpose.
So we have CCP using a rather convoluted system with which to sell ISK. You purchase game time from us and you can turn it into plex in game and sell it for ISK or trade it for items with other players.
Next is the guy that's purchasing, I go to a website and download a macro mining or mission programme. I purchase 3 EVE accounts and set them off 23/7 macro mining or running missions or ratting. With the proceeds I can easily get enough ISK in a week or two to pay for my 3 bots and my fourth main account and pay to equip it for PvP. All I need to do is each patch download the bot update, CCP will not prevent you from botting unless you brag about it in local or on their forums.
EDIT: Forgot to mention the practice of purchasing plex and selling it for RL money with this system just incase it passed you by.
So the customer is using bots to buy plex for all his accounts and pay to equip out the main char.
CCP action:
OK so CCP aren't doing anything against botting other than talk. If CCP stopped the botting they would sell atleast 50% less plex, why?
Atleast half of the entire EVE population is alts used for botting, ask someone who's been playing a few years. I've known guys running 16 botting accounts, 50% is a small number in my opinion it's probably more but I'll say half for the sake of argument. Those bots are banned then they don't need plex for them, there are less customers for plex so less people purchase it from CCP resulting in CCP lose money.
Conclusion:
In short the bottom would drop out of the market for plex. CCP would lose a minimum of half of it's income, so why would they do that? They don't of course but they put on a smoke and mirrors show for gamers because RMT and botting is frowned upon in P2P games universaly.
Also if those bots were taken away today the amazing EVE economy that CCP gets so moist about advertising would crash and have hyper inflation that would make Zimbabwe's economy look like a capatalist utopia! Something all those egg heads talking about analyzing the EVE market never consider, it's like credit in a real economy but EVE will just keep it going. Stamping out the botters would burst the bubble and the game would die.
CCP could do alot more against botting but it'd wreck their RMT system and have dtrimental effects on the in game economy and subscription levels. So they don't, they have all the bot programs and could easily have a third party program checking for it but don't.
My problem:
My problem isn't with EVE or the people that use the system. You like EVE and enjoy buying/selling plex and botting? Fine by me. My problem is when a bunch of suits from a company come along and try playing us all for a bunch of dumb saps. CCP lost all their credibility 3 years ago and this proves they still have none today. Telling me they're against RMT and macro mining/mission running/ratting and are doing their best to stop it. It makes me angry being treated like a child by these twerps who've gotten away with cheating everyone in EVE many times before.
If they just admit they're running a the most successful RMT in any MMORPG right now and frown on botting but don't want to be too heavy handed with it then fine. But telling me they're whiter than white (again) and are against the evil RMT and are doing their best to rid the server of the evil botters is just taking the ****!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Man.... Your just an angry and unhappy dude.
Damn...
Reading your posts are depressing, another player that will never be happy and takes shit way too personal.
One CCP misstep and the inclusion of Plex to help reduce third party Rmt and you feel like its a direct slap in the face? Chill out.
Lets remember these are games shall we?
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I don't play anything other then Eve so could't comment on how it could work in other games. I agree that it is not an industry wide solution if for so many different games there can be an industry wide solution. I would think as many games use many different mechanics the solution should be sought outside of the game and not by adjusting things in-game.
Eve as far as I understand is built on the premise of competition, whether it is trade, industry, space holding, pvp and introducing systems which erode or make this basic premise not true can be problematic in the long term. You ask yourself as a player what is the point if someone can just buy what i worked for ingame and nullify my advantage.
Effectively CCP is saying - RMT will happen so lets control it by implementing it ourselves, I would argue against that approach for reasons already mentioned. They need to work towards gaining more control over what happens in game in order to spot and eliminate RMT, and to be fair they are also doing that. Large transfers of isk are looked at , etc. That for me is a good way but there are probably others also.
Rockgodd I am not taking it personally in any way, i am not a competitive eve player, I am am a carebear living in a C6 wormhole running my industry operation and paying for my alts with PLEX. I enjoy Eve very much
Agricola1, you've generally made some intelligent posts in the past, but you are doing what you would find fault with others doing. Your numbers are not backed up by anything and we have CCP that has published numbers detailing multiple account holders and such. From my recollection, they directly contradict what you are saying. Now, if you can post the sources of your information, by all means, I would not be able to find any fault with your assumptions then. Until such time, you are telling me the sky is falling when, by all indications, that is not the case.
So, lets look at the fact you think CCP is playing everyone for fools. What do they gain? This is a conference where developers can talk amongst each other and not really a marketing campaign. in addition to this, the material discussed seems to be more a summary of what EvE has done and are doing and not something that says "hey we fixed all RMT eva!!!". Instead it seems to confer that they are working on an ongoing issue which is a very practical approach. If we look at it, a subject matter expert spoke about virtual economies and methods they've implemented to combat unregulated RMT. This is not "whiter then white" and doesn't seem to profess to be. I guess it just a matter of interpretation...
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Im sorry bro i wasn't targeting you. Damn thing wouldnt quote the intended poster. sorry
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
This is where I think we'll end up going in circles. I don't believe someone can just buy what I worked for. If I am a miner, they need to train up to the same ship, mining lasers, and crystals I am using which takes the same amount of time assuming same attribute mapping and implants. If I am industry, they still need a POS and production lines to work with. So maybe they can use PLEX to pay for POS fuel, minerals, and such, but I can accomplish similar working with my corp. They also still need to train skills for the same amount of time. PvP, training skills for the same amount of time. Space holding, training skills for the same amount of time....you get the pattern though.
Ultimately, I respect your view of it and my view isn't too far off. Just a few points we don't see eye to eye on. But, by the sounds of it, seems like we are both enjoying the game regardless and, RMT or not, that's the goal right?
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
ok so CCP let you use ingame currency to pay for your account is a bad thing? You say it hurts the pvp of a game being able to buy these plex's which ide have to say I disagree with. First things first these plex's cost about 35 euros for 2 which will get you around 300 mil for each of them so you could maybe buy 2 HAC's or a couple battleships(including fittings) .
First thing I want to draw attention to is the price can you really see people buying loads of these plex's like candy because i can't unless your rich as hell in which case why arnt you skydiving with models or something cool like that...
Anway back to why they are good imagine you log on for the first time in a couple weeks feel like going for some pvp but are low on isk and dont feel like running missions for a couple days to get the isk you need so you quickly buy a plex fit a bunch of ships and fly off and have fun all night with your corp. Not to mention all the people who are also looking for a battle for hours that never get 1 that thanks to you now have a fight on their hands.
Now if plex's didnt exist you might have been tempted to buy the ISK from a random site wake up the next morning to find yourself banned years of playing down the drain so you swear vengeance on CCP, get arrested 5 ft from ccp's office with a gun and your life is over ah well nvm
We can also look from the point of view of the poor unemployed man cant get a job to save his life and has decided to dedicate himself to playing eve but can't really afford to pay the 12quid a month to play but thanks to his horde of ISK he has gathered doesnt have to pay a penney and can keep playing his favourite game
You're right I don't have any evidence towards the figures and am just going off my experience in game so yes I accept that I could well be totally wrong. I'm not saying those figures are a stone cold fact just a best guess for a guy that used to play and has friends still playing it. Sorry if it came over different.
Yes they're talking about combating unregulated RMT but my point is that talk is cheap. After 7 years all they've done is introduced plex to basically cut out the middle man and take the profit themselves. My point is that this makes RMT worse, my analogy of the crack dealer was to point out no matter who takes over the crack dealing be it an illegal party or the goverment after legalizing it, the problems of crack abuse still remain do they not?
Which is what I'm pointing out here, removing "unregulated RMT" by means of plex doesn't remove the problems it causes nor make the game better. It has merely caused RMT to proliferate and amplified the problems and gripes it causes as a gamer. It has also put CCP in the position now that botting is making them more than just extra subscriptions. The profits from most botting activities comes through them at some point now with CCP getting their cut of the action so to speak.
This causes a massive dilema, they're running a business. Stop the botting and they lose the plex business, since they are the gold sellers now. Imagine a gold selling website starting a campaign against botting? Sounds crazy right? Well that is part of the EVE business model now and they're talking about how they want to stamp it out?
If the best they can do after 7 years is come up with plex I doubt they're gonna prevent botting anytime soon. The problems still remain with people with RL cash getting a leg up and so forth, what next the selling of chars? That is the only unregulated RMT business still going that they haven't muscled in on yet. Also EVE is supposedly a P2P where this kind of thing just shouldn't go on.
It just makes me sick when they do this then say they're trying to stop botters and so forth when in the last 7 years they never have and never will now due to being an RMT site with plex now.
I know it's "just a game" but I don't like to play with cheats, liars and gold sellers and that's why I don't play EVE.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Yes I see your and goosehs points and agree there are plus sides to it, hell as I said I use it myself and definitely wouldn't have that many alts going if there was no Plex system. All I can say is there are things I would like to own that I have skills for but not enough isk.
hehe, getting arrested outside of CCPs office comment shows how serious spaceship pixels can become if not treated with care