Agricola1, they have muscled into the selling of characters because you can use isk to buy characters on Character bazaar and you can buy isk for RL money as we know. Buying characters has been going on for a while.
You pay aditional 20 dollars for the transfer to your account
Man.... Your just an angry and unhappy dude. Damn... Reading your posts are depressing, another player that will never be happy and takes shit way too personal. One CCP misstep and the inclusion of Plex to help reduce third party Rmt and you feel like its a direct slap in the face? Chill out. Lets remember these are games shall we?
lol - and I thought it was only me. He wants something different - but doesn't quite know what it is and will remain the way he is until his target is hit.
Agricola1, they have muscled into the selling of characters because you can use isk to buy characters on Character bazaar and you can buy isk for RL money as we know. Buying characters has been going on for a while. You pay aditional 20 dollars for the transfer to your account
Really? Does that mean I could sell my old char for cash now? As I'd be interested, think it has over 30million sp on it so how much would that go for?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
You could sell it for ISK and sell the IS for RL if you know how. But I could sell a few PLEXes and buy your 30mil SP character. Thats how you build your alt collection, three specialized alts per account that you havent trained from scratch of course but bought and transfered to that account. So you may have your R&D alts, your production alt, your scout, mission runner , hulk trained miner, etc.
As they generate more money for you, you just buy more, 1 account 3 alts, they earn enough to pay for it through plex.
After a while you have a proper little army of alts that pay for themselves, well somebody pays real cash for them but who cares as you are loaded in game its not you.
So I'm a crazy conspiracy theorist am I, well what is this then click ? Am I still just a mad man that is hallucinating and dreamed up what happened? Oh and this is what they were caught red handed doing, long term hardcore players of EVE all know what the real deal is and that this has been rampant since day one and continues to this day.
This is a great article and I suggest everone read it. Only EVE that's all I'm gonna say, and only a very few game have had this type history and effect.
The irony is, this event has done as much to make the game a success as anything, and clearly illustrates EVE is not a game run by RMT's.
As for Kugutsumen, he was playing with fire and he got burned, that's life and that's EVE. If you think he is crying now, then you should click here. (BTW if you play EVE and don't know this site favorite it : )
Agricola1, they have muscled into the selling of characters because you can use isk to buy characters on Character bazaar and you can buy isk for RL money as we know. Buying characters has been going on for a while. You pay aditional 20 dollars for the transfer to your account
Really? Does that mean I could sell my old char for cash now? As I'd be interested, think it has over 30million sp on it so how much would that go for?
well the value is based on plex value 1,3m of Sp ~ 1 plex value, atm the plex value is ~275m ISK so i say your char is 5,5 BN ISK value
Agricola1 one thing u did miss on the logic of RMT you are a player and i dont blame you for not seeing all the picture, the thing u miss is profit stop a minute and compare the chinese farming and the PLEX thing, except CCP none can make a profit from the PLEX trade and by profit i mean real dollars/euro in hand
Agricola1, they have muscled into the selling of characters because you can use isk to buy characters on Character bazaar and you can buy isk for RL money as we know. Buying characters has been going on for a while. You pay aditional 20 dollars for the transfer to your account
Really? Does that mean I could sell my old char for cash now? As I'd be interested, think it has over 30million sp on it so how much would that go for?
well the value is based on plex value 1,3m of Sp ~ 1 plex value, atm the plex value is ~275m ISK so i say your char is 5,5 BN ISK value
Agricola1 one thing u did miss on the logic of RMT you are a player and i dont blame you for not seeing all the picture, the thing u miss is profit stop a minute and compare the chinese farming and the PLEX thing, except CCP none can make a profit from the PLEX trade and by profit i mean real dollars/euro in hand
I disagree that only CCP can profit from the plex trade. If I have my macro miners going and convert that into ISK in order to buy plex I can sell that plex for RL money to people for less than what CCP are selling it for yes?
If there is some mechanism that prevents me from selling plex for RL money then fine, but I'm not certain about RMT since I don't do it. If I can't do this please explain why.
But it seems Isk = plex = RL cash and RL cash = plex = ISK, yes?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Agricola1, they have muscled into the selling of characters because you can use isk to buy characters on Character bazaar and you can buy isk for RL money as we know. Buying characters has been going on for a while. You pay aditional 20 dollars for the transfer to your account
Really? Does that mean I could sell my old char for cash now? As I'd be interested, think it has over 30million sp on it so how much would that go for?
well the value is based on plex value 1,3m of Sp ~ 1 plex value, atm the plex value is ~275m ISK so i say your char is 5,5 BN ISK value
Agricola1 one thing u did miss on the logic of RMT you are a player and i dont blame you for not seeing all the picture, the thing u miss is profit stop a minute and compare the chinese farming and the PLEX thing, except CCP none can make a profit from the PLEX trade and by profit i mean real dollars/euro in hand
I disagree that only CCP can profit from the plex trade. If I have my macro miners going and convert that into ISK in order to buy plex I can sell that plex for RL money to people for less than what CCP are selling it for yes?
If there is some mechanism that prevents me from selling plex for RL money then fine, but I'm not certain about RMT since I don't do it. If I can't do this please explain why.
But it seems Isk = plex = RL cash and RL cash = plex = ISK, yes?
you can buy plex's for cash from CCP, you can only sell them for isk in game (if you dont use them yourself that is) trying to sell them on for cash yourself, is against the EULA, and if CCP catch you doing it, you will lose your account most likely, isk buying i think in the first instance the player loses the isk - i've heard of players going into the hole for -1 billion isk before now, for a repeated offence i think the penalty is more severe - accounts being banned is probably the most likely, CCP do take these issues very seriously, so basically dont do the illegal stuff unless your prepared for the consequences etc, my guess is that CCP probably has the backing of the majority of their playerbase for their actions against RMT's.
can buy ISK from a third party on the cheap. can get like 300-500mil for less than 15 bucks. buy plex in game for 265-275 and still have ISK left over. cost to pay monthly is less than the sub fee that CCP is charging and less than what they sell plex for. they arent against RMT because they do it, they just mad cus other people can undercut em. they want a bigger piece of the pie. so lets not do the holier than thou routine and think that CCP is doing this out of concern for the economy, player's accounts, etc...
I found it very interesting that such a small part of the population could cause such a large strain on the servers CPU. Glad to see the real money traders being banned, as doing so apparently makes the game perform better for legitimate players.
There is a HUGE [problem with their theories.All one has to do is login and head to noobie chat,where most noobs NEED to go to get the information they desire.Well that chat is almost non usable,since it is spammed 24/7 by RMT ,might i add with GM's in there at all times,so do they really care?
You can't even ask a question in noob chat ,because it will just fly by 20 lines later from RMT spam,and even if a GM or someone trying to help sees it,you won't see the response because of the fly by RMT spam.
So they definitely do not care enough about the problem to remove spammers,all they REALLY care about is competition to their OWN RMT racketeering,witch is why people should not support it.
I know SOE is doing the same thing,one big difference however,SOE was all over RMT long before their own RMT operations.I know because when RMT sent me spam mail,SOE was monitoring it and warned me not to respond to any and report all RMT to them,so they definitely were PROACTIVE and did care.
I also realize it is more so the problem of the PLAYER BASE,since no buyers means no RMT,so obviously tons of EVE players ARE buying,but for CCP to act like they really care?It is only to save their own RMT nothing more.
You want to see how it is done properly,look at the way Square Enix does it.One obvious method i would employ is to remove any TRIAL player in EVE from accessing chat,sure it removes noob chat,but not like it is useful anyhow with rmt spamming it.Square Enix has made it so hard for RMT to keep gil ,that it is selling at incredibly high prices,so if Eve ISK was super high priced to buy from RMT,then the majority if not 99% would stop buying it.
FFXI gil the cheapest i found was $30 for a million,and this is a game on the way out,replaced by FFXIV.
Eve ISK lmao you can buy a million at 4 cents !yes sounds like CCP is all over the situation...pfft.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I see, I wasn't questioning the legality just the practicality of it. It seems to be a logical progression to me, however it seems odd that if I buy a game time card from CCP selling it on is illegal. I mean if I purchase a game time card for any game then that is my property and if I sell it on I don't see how any company could prevent it except through threats they would find very difficult to back up.
I mean I see people selling plex on ebay so are they breaking the EULA? If so how would CCP hope to stop them? It just seems alot of people are using macro mining to sell plex on the web, I thought it was legit since CCP seem to condone RMT atleast through plex anyway.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Pretty much, most of the subscribers are alt accounts used as macro miners to support the few pvpers or the isk sellers. CCP saying they're fighting RMT is pretty much another crock from them. CCP have turned EVE into one giant RMT business for them, encouraging multiple accounts and botting. I have friends playing EVE now that have multiple accounts running macro miners which they use to pay for plex and buy items in game and make real life cash. They use the same company to buy the macro programs and that company updates them for free after each patch. CCP knows the company and has a copy of the macro programs but if they stopped them their CPU usage would drop by alot more so they don't. They pretend to be doing something whilst encouraging macro mining, they say they banned 30k accounts 2 years ago? They said none of their developers had been helping corps or alliances cheat until they were caught red handed and it was exposed they'd swept it under the rug 8 months earlier! So really their word ain't worth squat. You need proof? If you play the game have a look with your own eyes, most of the large alliances have their own protected macro mining systems in 0.0 and the rest use safer space to do it. Less profitable but it can easily be enough to pay for your game and earn some cash. CCP is like the Federal reserve, they need money they spawn more rocks! It all comes back into their pockets one way or another. People mine it, buy plex (game cards) and then sell them in real life for cash. People want isk so they buy the plex cards in real life for cash and sell it on for ISK or in game items John Smedley is no doubt kicking himself he didn't do this in SWG before he screwed it up! The entire game is an RMT trading card game now, nothing more with CCP pretending they're fighting it all. It makes me sick to the pit of my stomach personally.
If you're going to get so sick you should think about knowing why. Unholy Rage was less than a year ago and it's effects are well documented. If you play often and long enough, you know bot's are a problem. You also have a fairly good idea how they operate. A few Null sec players will use miner bots, but only the stupid ones. Smart Null sec players will set up a mission running alt. The only players that really use miners are isk sellers. Like I said, you play enough and see why things happen the way they do. Miner and mission macro's work much the same way, but the miner bot's have limitations and are easy to spot, both for other players and CCP. It's simply not possible to mine like everyone else using a bot, and it takes much longer. They really have to run all day after day, doing the same thing over and over to be profitable. According to CCP many isk farmers have even stopped using them in favor of missions.
So 30.000 last year (before FFest) and as this interview indicates, you can probably count on it this year too. Seems to me CCP is doing as much as anyone out there. Especially, when you consider GTC's. Yes it is a problem and anyone who plays often enough can spot it, but maybe you should think about taking the tin foil hat off.
Well I respectfuly disagree with your opinion on the matter, my experiences have taught me otherwise. CCP are like the goverment that says well crack dealers are a problem and cause crime so we're putting them out of business by legalising crack and selling it ourselves as the only legal vendor. It doesn't cut down on the problem of crack in fact it increases crime, addiction and misery ten fold no doubt. What it does do is cut out the crack dealer and pulls in the goverment a nice profit.
That is what CCP has done, cut out the middle man and caused proliferation of RMT by making it legal through them. If they cracked down on botting it would damage their own business now, they'd be putting themselves out of business since people would close their multiple accounts and stop buying plex with isk and eventually quit.
Take away a crack head's source of income to purchase the drug be it through crime or not then he has to go cold turkey like it or not and he'll quit. Why would a dealer do that? Why would CCP do that to plex heads? It makes no sense.
As for taking CCPs word for anything you can call me a tin foil hat but they were caught cheating and helping certain alliances cheat in EVE. When confronted they denied it until the evidence was displayed for all by an independent whistle blower that got abused and banned. Then they admitted to what they had to but failed to keep to their promise of firing any staff if caught cheating. That wasn't just me hallucinating and wearing a tin foil hat was it? That's why CCP can say what they want and I won't believe it until I see evidence.
In short CCP does nothing but encourage proliferation of RMT and have turned EVE into a F2P RMT space mining simulator. The PvP era in EVE has been long gone since the ushering in of the plex era!
To believe anything else in my opinion is NAIEVE!
Very well said.
Believing anything they say after all that stuff took place is NAIEVE at best.
I see, I wasn't questioning the legality just the practicality of it. It seems to be a logical progression to me, however it seems odd that if I buy a game time card from CCP selling it on is illegal. I mean if I purchase a game time card for any game then that is my property and if I sell it on I don't see how any company could prevent it except through threats they would find very difficult to back up. I mean I see people selling plex on ebay so are they breaking the EULA? If so how would CCP hope to stop them? It just seems alot of people are using macro mining to sell plex on the web, I thought it was legit since CCP seem to condone RMT atleast through plex anyway.
We get it, it's all a big ponzi scheme and CCP is the mastermind. EVE is an illusion and nobody actually plays the game anymore. People just use bots to buy GTC's so they can use the bots some more, and even the actions CCP takes to prevent it are really designed to encourage it.
It is, of course, curious why their own DEV's would want to play such a game, or why Kugutsumen would still support it, or why it has shown consistent and steady growth since it's inception, or why they are constantly adding new content free of charge, or why it was just named game of the year.
Maybe it's the chips CCP has implanted in our brains.
Instead of letting RMT's wreck the economy, CCP profits from them and players get the option of free game time.....Oh the injustice!
as far as big MMOs go, eve is the least populated by bots. admittedly i just pulled this fact out of my arse, but so have you pulled all of yours agricola.
and if you don't play a game anymore, and haven't for some time, then don't talk like you know exactly what is going on...as an old hardcore player...with 30 mil sp? after unholy rage hit, smart people made billions on implants. wanna know why? prices of implants went crazy after all the bots stopped running missions 23/7. for crying out loud it was possible to get corp offices at jita with all the macroers gone.
and yes they are coming back and getting on their feat, and yes CCP is collecting info and another massive ban will come. people need to understand that if you report somebody for being a bot its stupid to ban him. its smart to find out which accounts are connected, if they are all using the same software, how can we detect it and so on. once you have enough info, you do a big ban. same in most other games tbh. so if you report someone and he is not gone within the hour, take it easy, its being dealt with.
yes, a dev helping his alliances is horrible. well it happens in every mmo. there are guilds in wow who know exactly what is coming in patches and expansions long before blizzard announces anything. it happens in ALL mmos. get off your high horse and stop being naive. the only difference is CCP admitted what they did and implemented a department which controls all dev accounts. not only that, they went so far that the moment a dev gets recognized, his character gets banned. point him out on vent and he is gone.
i have no idea why you don't like the plex system, but its your choice not to like it. respect though that a lot of different people love it. i know of programmers in my corp who have high profile jobs, and there is no way in hell he would ever grind isk. he would much rather work and get real money and then sell it to buy plexes. then again there are cheap people who don't really have jobs and who would never pay real money for a "video game". and they don't mind spending 10 hours grinding to buy these plexes. and yeas, CCP did in a way legalize rmt, so what? they don't make the isk, that isk is produced by player and traded for the game time with other players. and trading and economy is a big part of this game. everything is traded on the market. there are people who just sit in stations and buy and sell plexes for profit.
and while your formula stands, you cant make RL money by selling plexes...well you can...just not any worthy amount first of all its a BIG problem to sell them, and second of all they would cost to much. yes you could have a bot running 23/7 and make isk but those are mining bots, and mining isn't very profitable these days (not to mention every now and then they do a big ban, so if you have some downloaded software expect to be caught). in the end you would make some isk and would be able to buy some plexes, but not enough to make any money. now a mission bot is another story. and yes there are people with those, and they have accounts running them, but they don't buy plexes and then sell them for RL money, they sell the isk for RL money. they are called rmters and are present in every game and i don't see what the hell is wrong in fighting them with an alternative. since the isk is not just generated. but every month of time you buy and sell for isk is actually applied to an account and used. nothing wrong with trading of game time as a commodity between players. its not like you can buy i win buttons. not in eve. if you have lots of isk it wont get you anywhere if you don't know how to play. and it is not possible to get any substantial amounts of isk with plexes because you would crash the plex market. this Russian guy tried, he was selling untold amounts of plexes, but the value dropped so low he crashed the market.
I mean what do you want them to do, what every other MMO is doing? not sure you noticed, but none of the MMOs out there solved the RMT problem.
and for the last time, would you stop with the t20 incident. i mean really, do you believe that all other game companies never cheated and are completely fair? and that CCP is the only game company in the history of gaming who ever did this? because it appears that this is what you are saying...and i refuse to believe you are so naive.
"As for taking CCPs word for anything you can call me a tin foil hat but they were caught cheating and helping certain alliances cheat in EVE. When confronted they denied it until the evidence was displayed for all by an independent whistle blower that got abused and banned. Then they admitted to what they had to but failed to keep to their promise of firing any staff if caught cheating. That wasn't just me hallucinating and wearing a tin foil hat was it? That's why CCP can say what they want and I won't believe it until I see evidence" Here we go again, way off the deep end, conspiracy theories enveloping the ether. Well sorry to burst your bubble, but any intelligent being knows what you wrote is complete nonsense. Anyone thinking CCP helps out alliances has lost it. You probably have bought the Brooklyn bridge multiple times.
Sure there are bots in EVE, just like any other MMO, I have to agree with the article that CCP does a far better job containing them, then most MMO teams. Try playing a NCSoft title sometime if you want to see the difference.
If you don't like EVE or CCP don't play their game, but please keep your Orwellian theories to yourself .
So I'm a crazy conspiracy theorist am I, well what is this then click ? Am I still just a mad man that is hallucinating and dreamed up what happened? Oh and this is what they were caught red handed doing, long term hardcore players of EVE all know what the real deal is and that this has been rampant since day one and continues to this day.
So is it all "complete nonsense" have I "lost it"? Because CCP themselves including the chairman admit to it so I guess they're crazy too? Better send them an email and tell them to retract their statements as it's all just the babblings of some crazy orwellian fantasy!
EDIT: gotta love the part he offers an alliance buddy a job at CCP even after he'd been "reprimanded" by the company for cheating!
Boy you have really gone off the deep end. Take a deep breath and say "I will not post on this thread again" multiple times because you are seriously deluded in your conceptions. Everyone understands that you dislike CCP, fine, but making up complete nonsense to support your theories just makes you look silly.
Fighting RMT generating bots is an ongoing battle. Any developer has to exercise caution in what accounts they ban so that legitimate ones are not affected. I know players who have tried the bot route and eventually they all get banned.
Goldsellers have become the telemarketters of MMOs ...and I also worry that their trade is becoming a training ground for people who will go on to lead a life of fraud or organized crime in real life. As MMOs become more established and their economies more sophisticated, the "value" of the scammer/goldseller's efforts grows and so too does the impact on a game's long-term health. It's not just the bots that need to be faught - it's also the people at the edges of the black market who try to cling to a claim of being legitimate traders but are fencing ill-gotten loot.
The way I see it, a good game economy needs to a few caveats to the wide-open sandbox:
1. inflation. Money accumulates and it needs to be cycled out. Most games do this via expansions that add new tiers of gold-generation, levels and loot, but the downside is that you end up creating a longer and longer curve to getting to the endgame.
2. multiple currencies. In the real world, economies are kept honest by having money only work within one region and when too much is printed, it becomes devalued against the rest of the currencies out there. Games can tap this by having different systems use different currencies. If one part of the game becomes too easily exploitable, the damage is limited. It also would likely make the statistical tracking of broken or exploited systems much faster.
3. limit the radius of trading. Allow currency/resources/loot/crafts to only be traded a limited number of steps within your social network (account/guild/friend tree). You can still have rares that are tradable server-wide, but if you flag resources as only being usable by members of the guild that harvested them, you can get reduce the range a bot can contaminate the economy. Punish accounts that have touched ill-gotten resources with debuffs, fines or disbanding (sorry, your guild-bound equipment built up with scripted loot just became non-functional decorations). Give bonus resources to accounts that aren't used as heavily.
(and on a related note, ingame communication in same games is almost worthless because your odds of ecountering a real person as opposed to scammers/sellers trolling for newbies is vanishingly small)
3. limit the radius of trading. Allow currency/resources/loot/crafts to only be traded a limited number of steps within your social network (account/guild/friend tree). You can still have rares that are tradable server-wide, but if you flag resources as only being usable by members of the guild that harvested them, you can get reduce the range a bot can contaminate the economy.
That is an interesting rule. Not sure what kind of logic or lore would be devised to support that, but it seems reasonable. It's an interesting direction that I'd like to see a developer travel one day.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Agricola1, you've generally made some intelligent posts in the past, but you are doing what you would find fault with others doing. Your numbers are not backed up by anything and we have CCP that has published numbers detailing multiple account holders and such. From my recollection, they directly contradict what you are saying. Now, if you can post the sources of your information, by all means, I would not be able to find any fault with your assumptions then. Until such time, you are telling me the sky is falling when, by all indications, that is not the case. So, lets look at the fact you think CCP is playing everyone for fools. What do they gain? This is a conference where developers can talk amongst each other and not really a marketing campaign. in addition to this, the material discussed seems to be more a summary of what EvE has done and are doing and not something that says "hey we fixed all RMT eva!!!". Instead it seems to confer that they are working on an ongoing issue which is a very practical approach. If we look at it, a subject matter expert spoke about virtual economies and methods they've implemented to combat unregulated RMT. This is not "whiter then white" and doesn't seem to profess to be. I guess it just a matter of interpretation...
You're right I don't have any evidence towards the figures and am just going off my experience in game so yes I accept that I could well be totally wrong. I'm not saying those figures are a stone cold fact just a best guess for a guy that used to play and has friends still playing it. Sorry if it came over different.
Yes they're talking about combating unregulated RMT but my point is that talk is cheap. After 7 years all they've done is introduced plex to basically cut out the middle man and take the profit themselves. My point is that this makes RMT worse, my analogy of the crack dealer was to point out no matter who takes over the crack dealing be it an illegal party or the goverment after legalizing it, the problems of crack abuse still remain do they not?
Which is what I'm pointing out here, removing "unregulated RMT" by means of plex doesn't remove the problems it causes nor make the game better. It has merely caused RMT to proliferate and amplified the problems and gripes it causes as a gamer. It has also put CCP in the position now that botting is making them more than just extra subscriptions. The profits from most botting activities comes through them at some point now with CCP getting their cut of the action so to speak.
This causes a massive dilema, they're running a business. Stop the botting and they lose the plex business, since they are the gold sellers now. Imagine a gold selling website starting a campaign against botting? Sounds crazy right? Well that is part of the EVE business model now and they're talking about how they want to stamp it out?
If the best they can do after 7 years is come up with plex I doubt they're gonna prevent botting anytime soon. The problems still remain with people with RL cash getting a leg up and so forth, what next the selling of chars? That is the only unregulated RMT business still going that they haven't muscled in on yet. Also EVE is supposedly a P2P where this kind of thing just shouldn't go on.
It just makes me sick when they do this then say they're trying to stop botters and so forth when in the last 7 years they never have and never will now due to being an RMT site with plex now.
I know it's "just a game" but I don't like to play with cheats, liars and gold sellers and that's why I don't play EVE.
I really don't see the reason to be sick, and I think your missing several points. It's pretty clear what CCP is doing, despite your argument, they are going after the RMT's because they are stealing from CCP's plex revenue.
You seem to be saying RMT's and GTC's are the same thing, and forgetting that by investing in GTC's CCP, more than ever, needs to fight RMT's. This is why we see Unholy Rage in the first place.
If you remove all RMT, EVE is 100% P2P. Every moment of game time is paid for, CCP is just saying they don't care by who.
Your argument on Bot's generating Income for the game is valid, but seriously flawed IMO.
And I quote "This causes a massive dilemma, they're running a business. Stop the botting and they lose the plex business, since they are the gold sellers now. Imagine a gold selling website starting a campaign against botting?"
CCP does not make money by making a better bot, they make money by making a better MMO. The point of PLEX is not to make money, but to steal money from RMT. CCP compromises with players and allows them to trade ISK/Playtime, in an attempt to fight RMT and improve the game. They then go after the bots the RMT's use to protect this market. The PLEX market is not a real RMT because player are trading in game currency for Playtime. The proof is in the fact that all this is generated by in game work and not real life money. With RMT it's just the opposite.
I see, I wasn't questioning the legality just the practicality of it. It seems to be a logical progression to me, however it seems odd that if I buy a game time card from CCP selling it on is illegal. I mean if I purchase a game time card for any game then that is my property and if I sell it on I don't see how any company could prevent it except through threats they would find very difficult to back up. I mean I see people selling plex on ebay so are they breaking the EULA? If so how would CCP hope to stop them? It just seems alot of people are using macro mining to sell plex on the web, I thought it was legit since CCP seem to condone RMT atleast through plex anyway.
wrong again when u buy a card u can be a reseller there are many websites for reseling cards that sell the GTC but the PLEX is not longer a code is a virtual item on a database owned by CCP and the plex is copyrighted by CCP so u cant sell what u dont own but yes u can sell the GTC itself
selling PLEX on ebay is against the EULA selling GTC on ebay is allowed, if anyone sell a plex on ebay for money is a scam(also against ebay EULA) because the plex show the GTC that generated that plex and the buyer can be tracked by the system
Also blaming lag on isk sellers is like blaming pollution on factory workers.
so u say normal ppl play 23h per day ?
Normal people get into fleet fight on servers that have no macro farmers. Macro farmers stay away from hostile areas and tend to go to somewhere where they can have their own server. Major lag in game is when 2000 people tries to fight in the same server. Failing to realize this means you fail at EVE. CCP is blaming someone else for their bad coding. And instead of fixing major game problems they focus on marginal stuff. It's like when congress of one country discusses how to change the name of French Fries into Freedom Fries while their bridges are falling down from lack on maintenance.
Get it now?
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
Also blaming lag on isk sellers is like blaming pollution on factory workers.
so u say normal ppl play 23h per day ?
Normal people get into fleet fight on servers that have no macro farmers. Macro farmers stay away from hostile areas and tend to go to somewhere where they can have their own server. Major lag in game is when 2000 people tries to fight in the same server. Failing to realize this means you fail at EVE. CCP is blaming someone else for their bad coding. And instead of fixing major game problems they focus on marginal stuff. It's like when congress of one country discusses how to change the name of French Fries into Freedom Fries while their bridges are falling down from lack on maintenance.
Get it now?
wrong logic because 75% of players stay on empire the load is on multiple nodes if u sum up all crowded system on empire the number of player pass by 5 times any null sec fleet action and if u sum up the time spend in hours that this crowded systems strees the server ths sum of all this time will pass by hundreds of time that time spend by the occasional fleet pew pew in null sec
Comments
Agricola1, they have muscled into the selling of characters because you can use isk to buy characters on Character bazaar and you can buy isk for RL money as we know. Buying characters has been going on for a while.
You pay aditional 20 dollars for the transfer to your account
lol - and I thought it was only me. He wants something different - but doesn't quite know what it is and will remain the way he is until his target is hit.
move along... there's nothing to see here
Really? Does that mean I could sell my old char for cash now? As I'd be interested, think it has over 30million sp on it so how much would that go for?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
You could sell it for ISK and sell the IS for RL if you know how. But I could sell a few PLEXes and buy your 30mil SP character. Thats how you build your alt collection, three specialized alts per account that you havent trained from scratch of course but bought and transfered to that account. So you may have your R&D alts, your production alt, your scout, mission runner , hulk trained miner, etc.
As they generate more money for you, you just buy more, 1 account 3 alts, they earn enough to pay for it through plex.
After a while you have a proper little army of alts that pay for themselves, well somebody pays real cash for them but who cares as you are loaded in game its not you.
This is a great article and I suggest everone read it. Only EVE that's all I'm gonna say, and only a very few game have had this type history and effect.
The irony is, this event has done as much to make the game a success as anything, and clearly illustrates EVE is not a game run by RMT's.
As for Kugutsumen, he was playing with fire and he got burned, that's life and that's EVE. If you think he is crying now, then you should click here. (BTW if you play EVE and don't know this site favorite it : )
Really? Does that mean I could sell my old char for cash now? As I'd be interested, think it has over 30million sp on it so how much would that go for?
well the value is based on plex value 1,3m of Sp ~ 1 plex value, atm the plex value is ~275m ISK so i say your char is 5,5 BN ISK value
Agricola1 one thing u did miss on the logic of RMT you are a player and i dont blame you for not seeing all the picture, the thing u miss is profit stop a minute and compare the chinese farming and the PLEX thing, except CCP none can make a profit from the PLEX trade and by profit i mean real dollars/euro in hand
BestSigEver :P
Really? Does that mean I could sell my old char for cash now? As I'd be interested, think it has over 30million sp on it so how much would that go for?
well the value is based on plex value 1,3m of Sp ~ 1 plex value, atm the plex value is ~275m ISK so i say your char is 5,5 BN ISK value
Agricola1 one thing u did miss on the logic of RMT you are a player and i dont blame you for not seeing all the picture, the thing u miss is profit stop a minute and compare the chinese farming and the PLEX thing, except CCP none can make a profit from the PLEX trade and by profit i mean real dollars/euro in hand
I disagree that only CCP can profit from the plex trade. If I have my macro miners going and convert that into ISK in order to buy plex I can sell that plex for RL money to people for less than what CCP are selling it for yes?
If there is some mechanism that prevents me from selling plex for RL money then fine, but I'm not certain about RMT since I don't do it. If I can't do this please explain why.
But it seems Isk = plex = RL cash and RL cash = plex = ISK, yes?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Really? Does that mean I could sell my old char for cash now? As I'd be interested, think it has over 30million sp on it so how much would that go for?
well the value is based on plex value 1,3m of Sp ~ 1 plex value, atm the plex value is ~275m ISK so i say your char is 5,5 BN ISK value
Agricola1 one thing u did miss on the logic of RMT you are a player and i dont blame you for not seeing all the picture, the thing u miss is profit stop a minute and compare the chinese farming and the PLEX thing, except CCP none can make a profit from the PLEX trade and by profit i mean real dollars/euro in hand
I disagree that only CCP can profit from the plex trade. If I have my macro miners going and convert that into ISK in order to buy plex I can sell that plex for RL money to people for less than what CCP are selling it for yes?
If there is some mechanism that prevents me from selling plex for RL money then fine, but I'm not certain about RMT since I don't do it. If I can't do this please explain why.
But it seems Isk = plex = RL cash and RL cash = plex = ISK, yes?
you can buy plex's for cash from CCP, you can only sell them for isk in game (if you dont use them yourself that is) trying to sell them on for cash yourself, is against the EULA, and if CCP catch you doing it, you will lose your account most likely, isk buying i think in the first instance the player loses the isk - i've heard of players going into the hole for -1 billion isk before now, for a repeated offence i think the penalty is more severe - accounts being banned is probably the most likely, CCP do take these issues very seriously, so basically dont do the illegal stuff unless your prepared for the consequences etc, my guess is that CCP probably has the backing of the majority of their playerbase for their actions against RMT's.
can buy ISK from a third party on the cheap. can get like 300-500mil for less than 15 bucks. buy plex in game for 265-275 and still have ISK left over. cost to pay monthly is less than the sub fee that CCP is charging and less than what they sell plex for. they arent against RMT because they do it, they just mad cus other people can undercut em. they want a bigger piece of the pie. so lets not do the holier than thou routine and think that CCP is doing this out of concern for the economy, player's accounts, etc...
There is a HUGE [problem with their theories.All one has to do is login and head to noobie chat,where most noobs NEED to go to get the information they desire.Well that chat is almost non usable,since it is spammed 24/7 by RMT ,might i add with GM's in there at all times,so do they really care?
You can't even ask a question in noob chat ,because it will just fly by 20 lines later from RMT spam,and even if a GM or someone trying to help sees it,you won't see the response because of the fly by RMT spam.
So they definitely do not care enough about the problem to remove spammers,all they REALLY care about is competition to their OWN RMT racketeering,witch is why people should not support it.
I know SOE is doing the same thing,one big difference however,SOE was all over RMT long before their own RMT operations.I know because when RMT sent me spam mail,SOE was monitoring it and warned me not to respond to any and report all RMT to them,so they definitely were PROACTIVE and did care.
I also realize it is more so the problem of the PLAYER BASE,since no buyers means no RMT,so obviously tons of EVE players ARE buying,but for CCP to act like they really care?It is only to save their own RMT nothing more.
You want to see how it is done properly,look at the way Square Enix does it.One obvious method i would employ is to remove any TRIAL player in EVE from accessing chat,sure it removes noob chat,but not like it is useful anyhow with rmt spamming it.Square Enix has made it so hard for RMT to keep gil ,that it is selling at incredibly high prices,so if Eve ISK was super high priced to buy from RMT,then the majority if not 99% would stop buying it.
FFXI gil the cheapest i found was $30 for a million,and this is a game on the way out,replaced by FFXIV.
Eve ISK lmao you can buy a million at 4 cents !yes sounds like CCP is all over the situation...pfft.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I see, I wasn't questioning the legality just the practicality of it. It seems to be a logical progression to me, however it seems odd that if I buy a game time card from CCP selling it on is illegal. I mean if I purchase a game time card for any game then that is my property and if I sell it on I don't see how any company could prevent it except through threats they would find very difficult to back up.
I mean I see people selling plex on ebay so are they breaking the EULA? If so how would CCP hope to stop them? It just seems alot of people are using macro mining to sell plex on the web, I thought it was legit since CCP seem to condone RMT atleast through plex anyway.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
If you're going to get so sick you should think about knowing why. Unholy Rage was less than a year ago and it's effects are well documented. If you play often and long enough, you know bot's are a problem. You also have a fairly good idea how they operate. A few Null sec players will use miner bots, but only the stupid ones. Smart Null sec players will set up a mission running alt. The only players that really use miners are isk sellers. Like I said, you play enough and see why things happen the way they do. Miner and mission macro's work much the same way, but the miner bot's have limitations and are easy to spot, both for other players and CCP. It's simply not possible to mine like everyone else using a bot, and it takes much longer. They really have to run all day after day, doing the same thing over and over to be profitable. According to CCP many isk farmers have even stopped using them in favor of missions.
So 30.000 last year (before FFest) and as this interview indicates, you can probably count on it this year too. Seems to me CCP is doing as much as anyone out there. Especially, when you consider GTC's. Yes it is a problem and anyone who plays often enough can spot it, but maybe you should think about taking the tin foil hat off.
Well I respectfuly disagree with your opinion on the matter, my experiences have taught me otherwise. CCP are like the goverment that says well crack dealers are a problem and cause crime so we're putting them out of business by legalising crack and selling it ourselves as the only legal vendor. It doesn't cut down on the problem of crack in fact it increases crime, addiction and misery ten fold no doubt. What it does do is cut out the crack dealer and pulls in the goverment a nice profit.
That is what CCP has done, cut out the middle man and caused proliferation of RMT by making it legal through them. If they cracked down on botting it would damage their own business now, they'd be putting themselves out of business since people would close their multiple accounts and stop buying plex with isk and eventually quit.
Take away a crack head's source of income to purchase the drug be it through crime or not then he has to go cold turkey like it or not and he'll quit. Why would a dealer do that? Why would CCP do that to plex heads? It makes no sense.
As for taking CCPs word for anything you can call me a tin foil hat but they were caught cheating and helping certain alliances cheat in EVE. When confronted they denied it until the evidence was displayed for all by an independent whistle blower that got abused and banned. Then they admitted to what they had to but failed to keep to their promise of firing any staff if caught cheating. That wasn't just me hallucinating and wearing a tin foil hat was it? That's why CCP can say what they want and I won't believe it until I see evidence.
In short CCP does nothing but encourage proliferation of RMT and have turned EVE into a F2P RMT space mining simulator. The PvP era in EVE has been long gone since the ushering in of the plex era!
To believe anything else in my opinion is NAIEVE!
Very well said.
Believing anything they say after all that stuff took place is NAIEVE at best.
I think your analogy is spot on.
We get it, it's all a big ponzi scheme and CCP is the mastermind. EVE is an illusion and nobody actually plays the game anymore. People just use bots to buy GTC's so they can use the bots some more, and even the actions CCP takes to prevent it are really designed to encourage it.
It is, of course, curious why their own DEV's would want to play such a game, or why Kugutsumen would still support it, or why it has shown consistent and steady growth since it's inception, or why they are constantly adding new content free of charge, or why it was just named game of the year.
Maybe it's the chips CCP has implanted in our brains.
Instead of letting RMT's wreck the economy, CCP profits from them and players get the option of free game time.....Oh the injustice!
Iceland is broke.. guess they need all they can get?
nothing is constant but change ~Sakyamuni~
kugutsumen still plays, he is in PL.
as far as big MMOs go, eve is the least populated by bots. admittedly i just pulled this fact out of my arse, but so have you pulled all of yours agricola.
and if you don't play a game anymore, and haven't for some time, then don't talk like you know exactly what is going on...as an old hardcore player...with 30 mil sp?
after unholy rage hit, smart people made billions on implants. wanna know why? prices of implants went crazy after all the bots stopped running missions 23/7.
for crying out loud it was possible to get corp offices at jita with all the macroers gone.
and yes they are coming back and getting on their feat, and yes CCP is collecting info and another massive ban will come.
people need to understand that if you report somebody for being a bot its stupid to ban him. its smart to find out which accounts are connected, if they are all using the same software, how can we detect it and so on. once you have enough info, you do a big ban. same in most other games tbh.
so if you report someone and he is not gone within the hour, take it easy, its being dealt with.
yes, a dev helping his alliances is horrible. well it happens in every mmo. there are guilds in wow who know exactly what is coming in patches and expansions long before blizzard announces anything. it happens in ALL mmos. get off your high horse and stop being naive. the only difference is CCP admitted what they did and implemented a department which controls all dev accounts.
not only that, they went so far that the moment a dev gets recognized, his character gets banned. point him out on vent and he is gone.
i have no idea why you don't like the plex system, but its your choice not to like it. respect though that a lot of different people love it. i know of programmers in my corp who have high profile jobs, and there is no way in hell he would ever grind isk. he would much rather work and get real money and then sell it to buy plexes.
then again there are cheap people who don't really have jobs and who would never pay real money for a "video game". and they don't mind spending 10 hours grinding to buy these plexes.
and yeas, CCP did in a way legalize rmt, so what? they don't make the isk, that isk is produced by player and traded for the game time with other players. and trading and economy is a big part of this game. everything is traded on the market. there are people who just sit in stations and buy and sell plexes for profit.
and while your formula stands, you cant make RL money by selling plexes...well you can...just not any worthy amount
first of all its a BIG problem to sell them, and second of all they would cost to much. yes you could have a bot running 23/7 and make isk but those are mining bots, and mining isn't very profitable these days (not to mention every now and then they do a big ban, so if you have some downloaded software expect to be caught). in the end you would make some isk and would be able to buy some plexes, but not enough to make any money.
now a mission bot is another story. and yes there are people with those, and they have accounts running them, but they don't buy plexes and then sell them for RL money, they sell the isk for RL money. they are called rmters and are present in every game
and i don't see what the hell is wrong in fighting them with an alternative. since the isk is not just generated. but every month of time you buy and sell for isk is actually applied to an account and used. nothing wrong with trading of game time as a commodity between players. its not like you can buy i win buttons. not in eve. if you have lots of isk it wont get you anywhere if you don't know how to play.
and it is not possible to get any substantial amounts of isk with plexes because you would crash the plex market. this Russian guy tried, he was selling untold amounts of plexes, but the value dropped so low he crashed the market.
I mean what do you want them to do, what every other MMO is doing? not sure you noticed, but none of the MMOs out there solved the RMT problem.
and for the last time, would you stop with the t20 incident. i mean really, do you believe that all other game companies never cheated and are completely fair? and that CCP is the only game company in the history of gaming who ever did this? because it appears that this is what you are saying...and i refuse to believe you are so naive.
It exists because the way to make money in EVE is boring and a repetitive grind.
So I'm a crazy conspiracy theorist am I, well what is this then click ? Am I still just a mad man that is hallucinating and dreamed up what happened? Oh and this is what they were caught red handed doing, long term hardcore players of EVE all know what the real deal is and that this has been rampant since day one and continues to this day.
So is it all "complete nonsense" have I "lost it"? Because CCP themselves including the chairman admit to it so I guess they're crazy too? Better send them an email and tell them to retract their statements as it's all just the babblings of some crazy orwellian fantasy!
EDIT: gotta love the part he offers an alliance buddy a job at CCP even after he'd been "reprimanded" by the company for cheating!
Boy you have really gone off the deep end. Take a deep breath and say "I will not post on this thread again" multiple times because you are seriously deluded in your conceptions. Everyone understands that you dislike CCP, fine, but making up complete nonsense to support your theories just makes you look silly.
Fighting RMT generating bots is an ongoing battle. Any developer has to exercise caution in what accounts they ban so that legitimate ones are not affected. I know players who have tried the bot route and eventually they all get banned.
Goldsellers have become the telemarketters of MMOs ...and I also worry that their trade is becoming a training ground for people who will go on to lead a life of fraud or organized crime in real life. As MMOs become more established and their economies more sophisticated, the "value" of the scammer/goldseller's efforts grows and so too does the impact on a game's long-term health. It's not just the bots that need to be faught - it's also the people at the edges of the black market who try to cling to a claim of being legitimate traders but are fencing ill-gotten loot.
The way I see it, a good game economy needs to a few caveats to the wide-open sandbox:
1. inflation. Money accumulates and it needs to be cycled out. Most games do this via expansions that add new tiers of gold-generation, levels and loot, but the downside is that you end up creating a longer and longer curve to getting to the endgame.
2. multiple currencies. In the real world, economies are kept honest by having money only work within one region and when too much is printed, it becomes devalued against the rest of the currencies out there. Games can tap this by having different systems use different currencies. If one part of the game becomes too easily exploitable, the damage is limited. It also would likely make the statistical tracking of broken or exploited systems much faster.
3. limit the radius of trading. Allow currency/resources/loot/crafts to only be traded a limited number of steps within your social network (account/guild/friend tree). You can still have rares that are tradable server-wide, but if you flag resources as only being usable by members of the guild that harvested them, you can get reduce the range a bot can contaminate the economy. Punish accounts that have touched ill-gotten resources with debuffs, fines or disbanding (sorry, your guild-bound equipment built up with scripted loot just became non-functional decorations). Give bonus resources to accounts that aren't used as heavily.
(and on a related note, ingame communication in same games is almost worthless because your odds of ecountering a real person as opposed to scammers/sellers trolling for newbies is vanishingly small)
That is an interesting rule. Not sure what kind of logic or lore would be devised to support that, but it seems reasonable. It's an interesting direction that I'd like to see a developer travel one day.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Fixed your post.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
You're right I don't have any evidence towards the figures and am just going off my experience in game so yes I accept that I could well be totally wrong. I'm not saying those figures are a stone cold fact just a best guess for a guy that used to play and has friends still playing it. Sorry if it came over different.
Yes they're talking about combating unregulated RMT but my point is that talk is cheap. After 7 years all they've done is introduced plex to basically cut out the middle man and take the profit themselves. My point is that this makes RMT worse, my analogy of the crack dealer was to point out no matter who takes over the crack dealing be it an illegal party or the goverment after legalizing it, the problems of crack abuse still remain do they not?
Which is what I'm pointing out here, removing "unregulated RMT" by means of plex doesn't remove the problems it causes nor make the game better. It has merely caused RMT to proliferate and amplified the problems and gripes it causes as a gamer. It has also put CCP in the position now that botting is making them more than just extra subscriptions. The profits from most botting activities comes through them at some point now with CCP getting their cut of the action so to speak.
This causes a massive dilema, they're running a business. Stop the botting and they lose the plex business, since they are the gold sellers now. Imagine a gold selling website starting a campaign against botting? Sounds crazy right? Well that is part of the EVE business model now and they're talking about how they want to stamp it out?
If the best they can do after 7 years is come up with plex I doubt they're gonna prevent botting anytime soon. The problems still remain with people with RL cash getting a leg up and so forth, what next the selling of chars? That is the only unregulated RMT business still going that they haven't muscled in on yet. Also EVE is supposedly a P2P where this kind of thing just shouldn't go on.
It just makes me sick when they do this then say they're trying to stop botters and so forth when in the last 7 years they never have and never will now due to being an RMT site with plex now.
I know it's "just a game" but I don't like to play with cheats, liars and gold sellers and that's why I don't play EVE.
I really don't see the reason to be sick, and I think your missing several points. It's pretty clear what CCP is doing, despite your argument, they are going after the RMT's because they are stealing from CCP's plex revenue.
You seem to be saying RMT's and GTC's are the same thing, and forgetting that by investing in GTC's CCP, more than ever, needs to fight RMT's. This is why we see Unholy Rage in the first place.
If you remove all RMT, EVE is 100% P2P. Every moment of game time is paid for, CCP is just saying they don't care by who.
Your argument on Bot's generating Income for the game is valid, but seriously flawed IMO.
And I quote "This causes a massive dilemma, they're running a business. Stop the botting and they lose the plex business, since they are the gold sellers now. Imagine a gold selling website starting a campaign against botting?"
CCP does not make money by making a better bot, they make money by making a better MMO. The point of PLEX is not to make money, but to steal money from RMT. CCP compromises with players and allows them to trade ISK/Playtime, in an attempt to fight RMT and improve the game. They then go after the bots the RMT's use to protect this market. The PLEX market is not a real RMT because player are trading in game currency for Playtime. The proof is in the fact that all this is generated by in game work and not real life money. With RMT it's just the opposite.
wrong again when u buy a card u can be a reseller there are many websites for reseling cards that sell the GTC but the PLEX is not longer a code is a virtual item on a database owned by CCP and the plex is copyrighted by CCP so u cant sell what u dont own but yes u can sell the GTC itself
selling PLEX on ebay is against the EULA selling GTC on ebay is allowed, if anyone sell a plex on ebay for money is a scam(also against ebay EULA) because the plex show the GTC that generated that plex and the buyer can be tracked by the system
BestSigEver :P
so u say normal ppl play 23h per day ?
BestSigEver :P
so u say normal ppl play 23h per day ?
Normal people get into fleet fight on servers that have no macro farmers. Macro farmers stay away from hostile areas and tend to go to somewhere where they can have their own server. Major lag in game is when 2000 people tries to fight in the same server. Failing to realize this means you fail at EVE. CCP is blaming someone else for their bad coding. And instead of fixing major game problems they focus on marginal stuff. It's like when congress of one country discusses how to change the name of French Fries into Freedom Fries while their bridges are falling down from lack on maintenance.
Get it now?
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
so u say normal ppl play 23h per day ?
Normal people get into fleet fight on servers that have no macro farmers. Macro farmers stay away from hostile areas and tend to go to somewhere where they can have their own server. Major lag in game is when 2000 people tries to fight in the same server. Failing to realize this means you fail at EVE. CCP is blaming someone else for their bad coding. And instead of fixing major game problems they focus on marginal stuff. It's like when congress of one country discusses how to change the name of French Fries into Freedom Fries while their bridges are falling down from lack on maintenance.
Get it now?
wrong logic because 75% of players stay on empire the load is on multiple nodes if u sum up all crowded system on empire the number of player pass by 5 times any null sec fleet action and if u sum up the time spend in hours that this crowded systems strees the server ths sum of all this time will pass by hundreds of time that time spend by the occasional fleet pew pew in null sec
BestSigEver :P
