Isn't it against the forum rules to post negatively on one game over and over and over again? I don't really like MO but im not gonna go in each thread and bring up the same shit over and over. Mods! Wake up and you know... Moderate. Come on! it's like the same 4-5 guys posting the same negative stuff over and over again. We get it, You dislike MO and want it to cease to exist lol.
I don't thing being negative is disallowed -- people are allowed to have an opinion. And with the impending release of MO, having chatter on here about how good or bad it is is rather something to be expected.
It's not just 4-5 people as an FYI, it's a LOT of people posting about MO negatively, and your want for mods to "clean up" all the negative threads will not fix the problems the game has for launch, which we discuss I think, in a reasonable way.
Isn't it against the forum rules to post negatively on one game over and over and over again? I don't really like MO but im not gonna go in each thread and bring up the same shit over and over. Mods! Wake up and you know... Moderate. Come on! it's like the same 4-5 guys posting the same negative stuff over and over again. We get it, You dislike MO and want it to cease to exist lol.
I don't thing being negative is disallowed -- people are allowed to have an opinion. And with the impending release of MO, having chatter on here about how good or bad it is is rather something to be expected.
It's not just 4-5 people as an FYI, it's a LOT of people posting about MO negatively, and your want for mods to "clean up" all the negative threads will not fix the problems the game has for launch, which we discuss I think, in a reasonable way.
Just a glance at your post history tells me you should be one of the players perma banned.
Honestly, you got your point across. why do you constantly post on the FE forum?
FE forum?
And if my "point" got across then there wouldn't be any debating it. That's kind of what *discussion* forums are about... to discuss different viewpoints. And it's good entertainment for me while I'm at work.
Im wondering where the OP get all this tech knowledge from, how his reading the stuff wrong all the time, and why he focus so much energy in bashing all of Starvaults decessions. Please come back to reality, if they think ATLAS is the right thing for their game, then mby it is.
Let them try and have a impact on how the future is shaped, if all we do is bash every company who tries everything new, all day. We end up with windowsME or Vista.!!!!
In fact if we are against all kind of development for PCs why not just play on a console! and get over with it?
IIRC, Hercules works in helping design and implement financial services software. He posts here during his workday, because apparently they have alot of downtime and his boss doesn;t mind him surfing these forums during that downtime.
As for him helping out Starvault, he was working (as a volunteer) with them redesign their forum. Part of the way through the redesign, they decided to not change over to the bulletin board software he had been working on. It's hard to say how much this contributes to his attitude of SV being unprofessional, but that was about the time that his attitude towards Starvault shifted.
I had heard there was a bit of rejection, but didnt know what area he was assiting in, or to what degree he had a relationship with SV..."Hell haveth no fury" I guess.
Isn't it against the forum rules to post negatively on one game over and over and over again? I don't really like MO but im not gonna go in each thread and bring up the same shit over and over. Mods! Wake up and you know... Moderate. Come on! it's like the same 4-5 guys posting the same negative stuff over and over again. We get it, You dislike MO and want it to cease to exist lol.
I don't thing being negative is disallowed -- people are allowed to have an opinion. And with the impending release of MO, having chatter on here about how good or bad it is is rather something to be expected.
It's not just 4-5 people as an FYI, it's a LOT of people posting about MO negatively, and your want for mods to "clean up" all the negative threads will not fix the problems the game has for launch, which we discuss I think, in a reasonable way.
Just a glance at your post history tells me you should be one of the players perma banned.
Honestly, you got your point across. why do you constantly post on the FE forum?
FE forum?
And if my "point" got across then there wouldn't be any debating it. That's kind of what *discussion* forums are about... to discuss different viewpoints. And it's good entertainment for me while I'm at work.
Sorry MO. Im trying to post this shit in between ducking the boss at work.
Your going to get banned dude, I have the same opinion of MO as you do but if you constantly bring it up over and over these guys will get you.
Also, It makes this place boring to bring up the same crap over and over again.
Well I appreciate you looking out for my well being.
Sorry MO. Im trying to post this shit in between ducking the boss at work. Your going to get banned dude, I have the same opinion of MO as you do but if you constantly bring it up over and over these guys will get you. Also, It makes this place boring to bring up the same crap over and over again.
Except that HerculesSAS ensures his criticism has a point to it, at least from what I've read he has. I agree that people who say "MO sucks" or lie to denigrate others should be subject to moderation, but being negative about a game repeatedly shouldn't be against the rules if you back that opinion up with a valid argument.
As far as I'm concerned, MO is a complete mess right now and there's so much wrong with it that I don't want to restrict my criticism to just one post. Plus, this is a good way of killing time when I'm bored.
Isn't it against the forum rules to post negatively on one game over and over and over again? I don't really like MO but im not gonna go in each thread and bring up the same shit over and over. Mods! Wake up and you know... Moderate. Come on! it's like the same 4-5 guys posting the same negative stuff over and over again. We get it, You dislike MO and want it to cease to exist lol.
Negativity is well within the bounds of discussion. 'Game Attacks
Unsubstantiated comments about specific or general games will be penalized in nearly the same way attacks against people will. The exception is that you can say mean things about games provided you back it up with reasons.
Example: "Game X sucks." is not a legitimate comment. "Game X sucks, because..." is acceptable.'
Hercules asserts that Mortal online is using the wrong tool (Unreal engine) for designing their game because it provides "full support for persistent lobby session based games" and Mortal Online does not fit that description. It is pointed out that the Atlas plug in provides "implementations of many standard MMO game features are provided, including Public zone setups and Seamless public world streaming." There is some mention of Hercules evolving attitude toward the use of the Unreal engine from "leveraging existing technology to build a new game world" to his current attitude (on topic) and his expertise and history with Star Vault (off-topic, sorry about that).
Per Epic Games' information about the Unreal Engine and the Atlas plug-in, it has implementationsof public zone setups and seamless public world streaming but may not provide "full support" as it does for "persistent lobby session based games" The Unreal Engine with Atlas is a tool intended for use in the way Star Vault is doing it, but Hercules has no confidence in their ability to use it effectively.
As far as I can tell, there is nothing else to discuss in this thread.
@ Galadourn: The topic is the Unreal Engine's appropriateness and Star vault's ability to use it, not Hercules' credibility.
I don't think the U3 engine is inappropriate, I just think they don't have the skills to make it work. When the "lead programmer" and "lead designer" don't have a basic grasp of the functional differences between TCP/UDP, they really have no business designing a network based game.
I don't think the U3 engine is inappropriate, I just think they don't have the skills to make it work. When the "lead programmer" and "lead designer" don't have a basic grasp of the functional differences between TCP/UDP, they really have no business designing a network based game.
I agree that "Hercules has no confidence in their ability to use it effectively" is the most accurate description of your position, but "It means that Atlas technology was designed to support INSTANCED GAMES" certainly sounds like an assertion that it is an inappropriate tool for games that are not instanced
I don't think the U3 engine is inappropriate, I just think they don't have the skills to make it work. When the "lead programmer" and "lead designer" don't have a basic grasp of the functional differences between TCP/UDP, they really have no business designing a network based game.
I agree that "Hercules has no confidence in their ability to use it effectively" is the most accurate description of your position, but "It means that Atlas technology was designed to support INSTANCED GAMES" certainly sounds like an assertion that it is an inappropriate tool for games that are not instanced
Vanguard used the Unreal2 engine and that was definitely inappropriate given that as far as I'm aware the Atlas technology didn't exist then, yet they still managed to beat it into submission and make it work as an MMO platform albeit with mixed results. Vanguard however had an experienced and skilled team, and in the end it was a lack of money that was their downfall.
I think Hercules is trying to say that the choice of engine was inappropriate in terms of SV's skillset, that is to say that the engine itself requires a lot of tweaking to get it to effectively support a seamless world which is what MO strives to achieve, and SV have demonstrated they lack the knowhow to do this. Therefore their choice of engine was a poor one and they would have been better off with licensing an engine that was more friendly to seamless gameplay, thus requiring less faffing around with network code from a team with little experience or knowledge.
Originally posted by osmunda Perhaps, but I suspect Hercules would argue that they don't have the skills to do it regardless of the engine they started with.
I would say that it is nothing to argue about, the level of their business and development skills is obvious.
Also I agree that Hercules has no point and just trolling a bit :-P
Perhaps, but I suspect Hercules would argue that they don't have the skills to do it regardless of the engine they started with.
I would say that it is nothing to argue about, the level of their business and development skills is obvious.
Also I agree that Hercules has no point and just trolling a bit :-P
To be honest, I'd say that he has the right idea. Dev teams with the immature, unprofessional and almost delusional attitude that Starvault seems to be proudly displaying should be called out as an example to future indie teams how not to do it.
We as customers don't have to accept what we're given, nor should we. If people just go along with it, pay money to these people to allow them to continue calling their customers "noobs" and producing buggy, broken products, that's all we're going to get. It's the reason why Hollywood and now the game industry is lacking in creativity: people keep paying for it.
Companies that think they can get away with charging people for a poor service should be rightly exposed, given that there are people out there who are actually willing to give them money and encourage such behaviour with poor excuses like "they're only a small team" and "it's only a beta".
@ Osmunda: Given that SV haven't made any kind of software before as a team, I'd probably agree with that speculation. Game development is extremely complex, and MMOs are as complex as they come so there's a good chance MO would have failed regardless of which engine they licensed. Software programming, in particular game design, isn't just something you can pick up on the job, and SV are finding this out the hard way.
So another confused troll thread from Herc..? First the engine cant be used for seamless worlds, then hes proven wrong and resort to "duh, they're incompetent anyway."
You really should have read up a bit more before going full nerdrage with "facts," as it is your credability has taken a kinda heavy blow imo. Better luck next time though!
Epic China is responcible for providing server solutions for online games. I've never seen anyone say that lag is Epic's fault, not on the forums or in IRC. Didn't SV ban this guy months ago?
Originally posted by Neoptolemus To be honest, I'd say that he has the right idea. Dev teams with the immature, unprofessional and almost delusional attitude that Starvault seems to be proudly displaying should be called out as an example to future indie teams how not to do it.
We as customers don't have to accept what we're given, nor should we. If people just go along with it, pay money to these people to allow them to continue calling their customers "noobs" and producing buggy, broken products, that's all we're going to get. It's the reason why Hollywood and now the game industry is lacking in creativity: people keep paying for it.
Companies that think they can get away with charging people for a poor service should be rightly exposed, given that there are people out there who are actually willing to give them money and encourage such behaviour with poor excuses like "they're only a small team" and "it's only a beta".
As I already said, everyone can make a picture on his own.
Making assumptions that game engine is inappropriate just because some part of the technology supports instances as he could read on some leaflet without actual deeper knowledge about programing and the engine alone, makes the poster as clueless looking as he is trying to make SV look like.
As for 'we customers', I dare not to speak for others nor I care. If enough people are willing to put their money in there to keep the game alive, regardles of what I think it, the game deserves to be running.
Here is a reality check: Epic is in the business of making money. I dont think the deal epic and SV have is the same as what a person and there best buy bought computer have. No, I think there is a lot more money at stake here, therefore probably a little more customer/technical support.
For some reason I dont think you know a whole lot about whatever sort of deal SV and Epic have.
Tera is seamless do not know if it uses Altas or not. They might of gone with their own network solution. Tera also has a lot of money and an insanely more experienced team then SV. Hell Teras American publishering /localizatioin company prob has more tech experience then the SV team.
Plus I have seen the devs on the forum before wishing they did not take the seamless route due to the resource and problems it causes.
Just because a company is using the same network or engine does not mean a lot. Most companies i am pretty sure will still hack into and rewrite a lot of the engine to get it to perform as they want it to. Its not a one size fits all solution.
Hercules' criticism is always spot on. His and Korrigan's posts are always worth a read if someone wants an honest view for the state of a game.
How can that be, when he doesn't play it?
Sure he can view their business practices and judge them based on that information. However as far as the state of the game goes, how would you see improvement or a lack of, if you're not playing?
It just isn't possible, I would definitely tell people to take anything I say to criticize MO with a grain of salt. As I have not played extensively, I've only dabbled.
It's also questionable what motivates his posting habits. When he personally states He'd be gone if they give his money back.
I don't want to go into his posting history, however he stated that within this thread so i think its fair game.
I want to hear the truth as much as the next guy, however I don't want that truth given to me as a cover for a personal agenda.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
I don't thing being negative is disallowed -- people are allowed to have an opinion. And with the impending release of MO, having chatter on here about how good or bad it is is rather something to be expected.
It's not just 4-5 people as an FYI, it's a LOT of people posting about MO negatively, and your want for mods to "clean up" all the negative threads will not fix the problems the game has for launch, which we discuss I think, in a reasonable way.
I don't thing being negative is disallowed -- people are allowed to have an opinion. And with the impending release of MO, having chatter on here about how good or bad it is is rather something to be expected.
It's not just 4-5 people as an FYI, it's a LOT of people posting about MO negatively, and your want for mods to "clean up" all the negative threads will not fix the problems the game has for launch, which we discuss I think, in a reasonable way.
Just a glance at your post history tells me you should be one of the players perma banned.
Honestly, you got your point across. why do you constantly post on the FE forum?
FE forum?
And if my "point" got across then there wouldn't be any debating it. That's kind of what *discussion* forums are about... to discuss different viewpoints. And it's good entertainment for me while I'm at work.
IIRC, Hercules works in helping design and implement financial services software. He posts here during his workday, because apparently they have alot of downtime and his boss doesn;t mind him surfing these forums during that downtime.
As for him helping out Starvault, he was working (as a volunteer) with them redesign their forum. Part of the way through the redesign, they decided to not change over to the bulletin board software he had been working on. It's hard to say how much this contributes to his attitude of SV being unprofessional, but that was about the time that his attitude towards Starvault shifted.
I had heard there was a bit of rejection, but didnt know what area he was assiting in, or to what degree he had a relationship with SV..."Hell haveth no fury" I guess.
I don't thing being negative is disallowed -- people are allowed to have an opinion. And with the impending release of MO, having chatter on here about how good or bad it is is rather something to be expected.
It's not just 4-5 people as an FYI, it's a LOT of people posting about MO negatively, and your want for mods to "clean up" all the negative threads will not fix the problems the game has for launch, which we discuss I think, in a reasonable way.
Just a glance at your post history tells me you should be one of the players perma banned.
Honestly, you got your point across. why do you constantly post on the FE forum?
FE forum?
And if my "point" got across then there wouldn't be any debating it. That's kind of what *discussion* forums are about... to discuss different viewpoints. And it's good entertainment for me while I'm at work.
Sorry MO. Im trying to post this shit in between ducking the boss at work.
Your going to get banned dude, I have the same opinion of MO as you do but if you constantly bring it up over and over these guys will get you.
Also, It makes this place boring to bring up the same crap over and over again.
Well I appreciate you looking out for my well being.
Except that HerculesSAS ensures his criticism has a point to it, at least from what I've read he has. I agree that people who say "MO sucks" or lie to denigrate others should be subject to moderation, but being negative about a game repeatedly shouldn't be against the rules if you back that opinion up with a valid argument.
As far as I'm concerned, MO is a complete mess right now and there's so much wrong with it that I don't want to restrict my criticism to just one post. Plus, this is a good way of killing time when I'm bored.
Please stay on topic. Discussing another user's posting history is not on the topic of the thread. First and only warning.
http://www.mmorpg.com/disclaimers.cfm#conduct
Negativity is well within the bounds of discussion. 'Game Attacks
Unsubstantiated comments about specific or general games will be penalized in nearly the same way attacks against people will. The exception is that you can say mean things about games provided you back it up with reasons.
Example: "Game X sucks." is not a legitimate comment. "Game X sucks, because..." is acceptable.'
Thread summary so far:
Hercules asserts that Mortal online is using the wrong tool (Unreal engine) for designing their game because it provides "full support for persistent lobby session based games" and Mortal Online does not fit that description. It is pointed out that the Atlas plug in provides "implementations of many standard MMO game features are provided, including Public zone setups and Seamless public world streaming." There is some mention of Hercules evolving attitude toward the use of the Unreal engine from "leveraging existing technology to build a new game world" to his current attitude (on topic) and his expertise and history with Star Vault (off-topic, sorry about that).
Per Epic Games' information about the Unreal Engine and the Atlas plug-in, it has implementationsof public zone setups and seamless public world streaming but may not provide "full support" as it does for "persistent lobby session based games" The Unreal Engine with Atlas is a tool intended for use in the way Star Vault is doing it, but Hercules has no confidence in their ability to use it effectively.
As far as I can tell, there is nothing else to discuss in this thread.
Hercules' criticism is always spot on. His and Korrigan's posts are always worth a read if someone wants an honest view for the state of a game.
Are you sure MO uses Atlas? Coz i havnt seen Atlas logo anywhere. Niether in game nor the web.
http://www.teraonline.info.pl Polski Poradnik Gry Tera Online
Ok, the thread may not be quite exhausted. Hercules noted the use of Atlas and I tried to adress it on those grounds.
Ahhh did a google search and found you a quote----
The MMO Gamer: The game trailer says that it uses the in-game engine, what engine is the game based on?
Mats Persson: It’s based on Unreal Engine 3 together with Epic Games China with their Atlas system for the network and MMO engine.
We also collaborate with Growm for creating terrain, large scale terrain
http://www.mmogamer.com/12/02/2008/interview-a-chat-with-mortal-onlines-creative-director
@ Galadourn: The topic is the Unreal Engine's appropriateness and Star vault's ability to use it, not Hercules' credibility.
Ok, the thread may not be quite exhausted. Hercules noted the use of Atlas and I tried to adress it on those grounds.
Ahhh did a google search and found you a quote----
The MMO Gamer: The game trailer says that it uses the in-game engine, what engine is the game based on?
Mats Persson: It’s based on Unreal Engine 3 together with Epic Games China with their Atlas system for the network and MMO engine.
We also collaborate with Growm for creating terrain, large scale terrain
http://www.mmogamer.com/12/02/2008/interview-a-chat-with-mortal-onlines-creative-director
@ Galadourn: The topic is the Unreal Engine's appropriateness and Star vault's ability to use it, not Hercules' credibility.
I don't think the U3 engine is inappropriate, I just think they don't have the skills to make it work. When the "lead programmer" and "lead designer" don't have a basic grasp of the functional differences between TCP/UDP, they really have no business designing a network based game.
I agree that "Hercules has no confidence in their ability to use it effectively" is the most accurate description of your position, but "It means that Atlas technology was designed to support INSTANCED GAMES" certainly sounds like an assertion that it is an inappropriate tool for games that are not instanced
I agree that "Hercules has no confidence in their ability to use it effectively" is the most accurate description of your position, but "It means that Atlas technology was designed to support INSTANCED GAMES" certainly sounds like an assertion that it is an inappropriate tool for games that are not instanced
Vanguard used the Unreal2 engine and that was definitely inappropriate given that as far as I'm aware the Atlas technology didn't exist then, yet they still managed to beat it into submission and make it work as an MMO platform albeit with mixed results. Vanguard however had an experienced and skilled team, and in the end it was a lack of money that was their downfall.
I think Hercules is trying to say that the choice of engine was inappropriate in terms of SV's skillset, that is to say that the engine itself requires a lot of tweaking to get it to effectively support a seamless world which is what MO strives to achieve, and SV have demonstrated they lack the knowhow to do this. Therefore their choice of engine was a poor one and they would have been better off with licensing an engine that was more friendly to seamless gameplay, thus requiring less faffing around with network code from a team with little experience or knowledge.
@ Neoptolemus:
Perhaps, but I suspect Hercules would argue that they don't have the skills to do it regardless of the engine they started with.
The OP presents a logical arguement=not Epic's fault.
I would say that it is nothing to argue about, the level of their business and development skills is obvious.
Also I agree that Hercules has no point and just trolling a bit :-P
I would say that it is nothing to argue about, the level of their business and development skills is obvious.
Also I agree that Hercules has no point and just trolling a bit :-P
To be honest, I'd say that he has the right idea. Dev teams with the immature, unprofessional and almost delusional attitude that Starvault seems to be proudly displaying should be called out as an example to future indie teams how not to do it.
We as customers don't have to accept what we're given, nor should we. If people just go along with it, pay money to these people to allow them to continue calling their customers "noobs" and producing buggy, broken products, that's all we're going to get. It's the reason why Hollywood and now the game industry is lacking in creativity: people keep paying for it.
Companies that think they can get away with charging people for a poor service should be rightly exposed, given that there are people out there who are actually willing to give them money and encourage such behaviour with poor excuses like "they're only a small team" and "it's only a beta".
@ Osmunda: Given that SV haven't made any kind of software before as a team, I'd probably agree with that speculation. Game development is extremely complex, and MMOs are as complex as they come so there's a good chance MO would have failed regardless of which engine they licensed. Software programming, in particular game design, isn't just something you can pick up on the job, and SV are finding this out the hard way.
So another confused troll thread from Herc..? First the engine cant be used for seamless worlds, then hes proven wrong and resort to "duh, they're incompetent anyway."
You really should have read up a bit more before going full nerdrage with "facts," as it is your credability has taken a kinda heavy blow imo. Better luck next time though!
Epic China is responcible for providing server solutions for online games. I've never seen anyone say that lag is Epic's fault, not on the forums or in IRC. Didn't SV ban this guy months ago?
As I already said, everyone can make a picture on his own.
Making assumptions that game engine is inappropriate just because some part of the technology supports instances as he could read on some leaflet without actual deeper knowledge about programing and the engine alone, makes the poster as clueless looking as he is trying to make SV look like.
As for 'we customers', I dare not to speak for others nor I care. If enough people are willing to put their money in there to keep the game alive, regardles of what I think it, the game deserves to be running.
Here is a reality check: Epic is in the business of making money. I dont think the deal epic and SV have is the same as what a person and there best buy bought computer have. No, I think there is a lot more money at stake here, therefore probably a little more customer/technical support.
For some reason I dont think you know a whole lot about whatever sort of deal SV and Epic have.
Tera is seamless do not know if it uses Altas or not. They might of gone with their own network solution. Tera also has a lot of money and an insanely more experienced team then SV. Hell Teras American publishering /localizatioin company prob has more tech experience then the SV team.
Plus I have seen the devs on the forum before wishing they did not take the seamless route due to the resource and problems it causes.
Just because a company is using the same network or engine does not mean a lot. Most companies i am pretty sure will still hack into and rewrite a lot of the engine to get it to perform as they want it to. Its not a one size fits all solution.
Who said it was Epic's fault and where did they say it ?
How can that be, when he doesn't play it?
Sure he can view their business practices and judge them based on that information. However as far as the state of the game goes, how would you see improvement or a lack of, if you're not playing?
It just isn't possible, I would definitely tell people to take anything I say to criticize MO with a grain of salt. As I have not played extensively, I've only dabbled.
It's also questionable what motivates his posting habits. When he personally states He'd be gone if they give his money back.
I don't want to go into his posting history, however he stated that within this thread so i think its fair game.
I want to hear the truth as much as the next guy, however I don't want that truth given to me as a cover for a personal agenda.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson