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General: What's Mine Isn't Yours
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
MMORPG.com Player Perspectives columnist Jaime Skelton returns this week to talk about the concept of sharing in MMOs. Is it a lost art?
Sesame Street taught me a lot of valuable lessons when I was a kid - like how to share licorice with friends, how to group up and pwn a carebear, and how to figure out who stole my bike. Although the cops thought I was crazy when I told them Cookie Monster absconded with my two-wheeler, the show still taught me valuable lessons I would use later when dealing with people in MMOs. And yes, kids, the theme today is SHARING.
Without falling too much into the "back in the day" trap, it's safe to say that there was at one time an inclination for collaboration in open worlds. Players adventuring in the Guk dungeons in EverQuest, for instance, kept detailed lists of groups for each boss and arranged rotation schedules. More experienced groups even helped less equipped groups get to more difficult areas. That isn't to say that open-world dungeons worked with Marxist idealism; there were plenty of conflicts, lots of name-calling, and guerrilla tactics used between rival factions that didn't get along. The greater attitude, however, was one of cooperation, of an attitude that everyone had a right to get what they wanted and that the community would work as a whole to that end.
Read What's Mine Isn't Yours.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
Hmm... Yes and no. I totally agree with the dungeon instancing. It's something really stupid, and one of the things which makes a game a "WoW-clone" for me. Thats one fo the few things that made me choose Fallen earth over Age of Conan DESPITE the fact FE has no group content. I would rather not group that have to group through instanced dungeons.
About the Open world spawns... i have found no matter how bad the population is, it only takes one easy step for you to create a group. If you start the group, you will usually get everyone joining. Make that one step, and all is fine. It's a matter of a lack of initiative, and a result of a "why doesn't the game do it for me?" mindset.
SF
I dont like feeling like a jerk, so I dont usually tag one of those mobs while there are others around. I'll actually invite them to a group or ask for one.
As for instancing, I love instanced dungeons. In this day and age (post-WoW) its a must. I really *dont* want to deal with a bunch of ninja'ing jerks on my way to kill Van Cleef, or any other generic boss in a dungeon. Having content designed for *you*, for you to enjoy at your own pace is great.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
You know, I can't help thinking how FFA PvP with perma-death could potentially regulate jerk behaviour in that specific instance. Not much incentive to try KS a named mob when someone could just turn around and gank your ass for trying.
Not to say that FFA PvP and perma-death are ideal solutions, though. >.>
You know on the one hand I love to have those fantasy adventures together with friends. Soloing always bores me. But on the other hand in RL I have to make so many compromises, in my spare time I don't want to argue over loot, I don't want to overly bend my road and plan for (often silly) other people's whim. I want to have things my way. So I understand the dilemma, but I am no wiser here solving it, outside of making people do what I want, of course.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
this perma death thing would give another problem, high lvl peeps comming to kill you XD.
for fallen earth it have some group instances, the prison you have to kill a boss there is a group contend, I need a group there even if you could enter alone the prison, also some other places depending if you have any quest in said place would place you in a instance not the open dungeon (it was a interesting system if I may say so XD).
well normally for quest mobs the problem is not every MMo give you credit for mobs you kill in group, its work the same as if you are alone so a lot of people just stay off, you can also just see that huge crowd and ask there " hey waiting for "mob name"? if they say yes, just say ask group? XD normally they or invite you or say to you invite then, then you guy do the quest and move on. I did that on S.U.N. on the first day on open beta, the start place as full and all mobs death, so I goup there and did the quest fast and leave for the next area and when I was leaving I still saw some people it was there before me still trying to finish the quest XD. so in MMO its better you group if the quest require
You say the reason some people prefer to just kill the quest objective by themselves is because they are anti-social. I guess to a certain extent that may be true. But quite frankly, unless I'm in a giving mood and not in a hurry I'd do that in a heart beat. For the simple reason that people usually don't give a crap about what I want, either.
Many times, I clear the mobs around the final quest encounter, or some treasure or mining node, only to have another player swoop in and benefit from my efforts.
Additionally, if you spend any time in the general chat channels (of WoW, in this case), any sense of brotherhood with your fellow gamers quickly evaporates. The inanity and rudeness prevalent there resulted in me playing under the premise: You are all idiots.
Sometimes you meet someone who can string together a sentence and displays signs of decency. That one may get on my friends list. I'm level 60 and my friends list has 4 people on it.
I am one of those solo players with my own reasons to play MMOs. And even I can get over my anti-social self long enough to group with the 10 other players waiting for a named spawn.
Starter areas with a bazillion players and 20 mobs tho.......every man for himself. Mwahah.
Given that at one point in my gaming career (when I was in junior high and high school) I did enjoy ganking/griefing I can easily tell you that the people who remember the days gone by as peaceful and everyone shared are completly full of it.
In The Realm there was no trade window so people used a repped third party person for the trading. We had several accounts (none of which we paid for because back then people would buy accounts and trade them for in game items since ebay and such didn't exist). We would log in several different people when they asked for a repped trader and all say the same guy. Inevitably people would use that guy to trade with and we'd run off with the items. We did worse then that and we weren't the only ones. I even had to spend time in an in-game jail in that game several times.
In UO I would rob/gank/kill for fun/and loot anyone who died just because it was fun and exciting (since once in a while someone would have skill and gear enough to put up a solid fight), eventually the blue grey red system was put in which hurt my fun a bit because I didn't want to be an outcast from towns.
In EQ I used to jump line for monster kills. Why you ask? Well I found it ridiculous when there was a 3 hour wait line for a friggin monster. The fact that people would line up to waste their entire day waiting was insane, and I wasn't going to stand for that kind of bs. Also in EQ when I'd get bored I would sneak down to the bottom on a dungeon on my rogue and train all the monsters back up because let's admit it, that was friggin fun!
In AC I remember getting to the Green Mire Curiass because my vassal wanted one. When I got there I saw over 30 people waiting in line for the chest to refill so they could get the armor, this would of been an all day wait. So I quietly stood near the chest waiting for it to load back up and snagged the armor and left. Once again if it had been a line of 1 or 2 people then sure, but when that many people were that dumb to line up for a whole day of waiting I wasn't going to play along.
Now I don't really do any griefing now a days, I'm not a kid anymore and it's not as fun to do. But at the same time there aren't any games where people like up for 3,4, 8, 24 hour waits for one mob or one item. If there was one of two things would happen. I would quit the game or I would cut in line. It is silly to wait that long in a game for pixels.
There was never a golden age of MMO players working together and everyone sharing and helping. There was a day with smaller populations and more dedicated guilds which falsely made players think back and see how wonderful things were. There has and will always be griefing and selfishness, just as there will always be foolish players and those who pretend the game is real life. There will be those who play 10 hours a day and don't mind sitting around all day, and those who only have an hour to play and want action now.
There will most definetly always be solo players and group players. The key is to find a guild which works well together and are nice. You can't force people to be what they aren't and have not desire to be. But you can find a group of like minded individuals and have fun and help one another.
On the rare occasion I'm in a guild these days (I find most to be annoying and take themselves way too seriously) I find it more fun to go help a lower level through a quest that my guy can do with ease then to level my own guy. Helping can be fun, if you are the type that enjoys it, but you won't be able to make someone who doesn't enjoy it suddenly want to help everyone.
This article smacks of the misplaced notion that group effort somehow is the sum total of community. I've walked into plenty of those situations where a group is formed to accomplish a common objective. In every case, there was no real camaraderie between groupmates, only a fevered rush to get the task done and move on. In a group situation, I can also usually count on walking away with an inventory full of trash that no one else wanted and the objective updated in my quest log. People are all too satisfied with using others to get something done, then dumping them after raking in as much of the loot as they can.
The problem is game design. Locking six random people in a room and telling them they can't get out until they learn to work together may work on TV, but reality yields a far different outcome. Pre-CU Star Wars Galaxies was the finest sense of community I've ever known and I didn't group for a single mission. Since then, I rarely group unless someone asks and then, only if the participants aren't offensive in some way. It's easier on my blood pressure if I just forget tasks that I can't accomplish alone.
"Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II
"People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift
Any game stupid enough to have limited quest specific spawns in a start area isn't worth playing. That is just terrible design in what should be the most polished area of a game at launch.
Really though its a simple matter, who do you need in these newer games? No one else, at least until endgame. First there's the magical bubble that stops all us great warriors from giving you the ass kicking you deserve for acting like a 2 year old. Not that it would matter since there isn't any penalty to you for it even if we could. So the only "penalty" is possibly blacklisting a player so no one will group with them, but again you don't need anyone.
Poor behavior is encouraged by a lack of repercussions. The sense of anonymity+ a lack of any meaningful reaction + a sense of "getting ahead"= a lousy community. And maybe that is the other change as these games have grown, the lvl 1- cap has grown less and less important.
A lot of these editorials talk about the community but fail to address the companies that foster these communities. You speak of instancing. That was a solution to the problem you are writing about, but it is a small solution to a larger problem. While not a bad solution initially, unfortunately it has remained largely the ONLY solution, which in turn makes it bad, at least to a lot of us.
Either A. it is the designer's intent to have us fighting for mobs or B. it is the designer's intent to have us group up to kill mobs that we can kill 10 of solo in 2 minutes if given the chance. Neither intent seems well thought out in the least.
Take WAR. With the group quest area things. Another small solution to a big problem. Big as in widespread, not necessarily pressing. We need more solutions like these from the companies and less blame cast on the communities. Harkening back the a better day is all fine and well, but those days are gone and not likely to return. Everything from hardware to code has changed to the point where MMO is a household name, or almost is, yet little has changed if you look at the concepts employed to create content.
End point is, if mobs are meant to be grouped for, make the 5 dots. If they aren't, make 1000 of them. Or come up with a better way altogether of implementing these kinds of content.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I really do not relate to the blog. I in general find most gamers pretty helpfull and while true there are a few rotten eggs, I really do doubt it procentage wise it that much different then "back" then.
Also would like to note that it pretty obvious that in games where you are capible of solo'ing people cooperate less. Pretty sure there is less cooperation now in EQ then there was back in the day. Simply duo to the fact EQ is now easier to solo.
EDIT: This blog makes it sound like there where only peacefull hippies playing MMO's
I never got the entire "one killer" rule.
when i make a mmo if 40 people hit a quest mob they all get the kill credit, simple. (loot is another story but they will all get kill credit)
When i play LoTRO and CO i would often camp by world bosses just to help out other players once i got my "quest kill" it's so easy to do and mmos are Social beasts, i don;t knwo why others don't.
Of course there wasn't. There was a tendency toward things like monster kill lists then; it's not something you find now. But just because there were kill lists and dungeon rotations doesn't mean things were peachy. MMOs have never been the happy world of Sesame Street.
Nor do I think that grouping up to kill a quest mob "makes" community, any more than sticking flour in a bowl makes bread. There's an off chance that people might befriend each other, but we're talking about utilitarian needs here- not about hugs and friends lists.
Is there a greater game design problem? Definitely, especially when it's newbies fighting over a named mob (anyone been playing Aika's open beta?). That doesn't mean players can't take the obvious solution, though.
I don't look for a group for quests any more than most of you, but when I'm out there and someone else shows up for the same quest mob, I toss them a group invite. It's just common sense.
Sometimes I get that Twilight Zone feeling like I was playing EQ in an alternate universe or something. Who the hell ever waited in line for mobs in EQ? I sure never did.
Take Lower Guk for example. If you went in there wanting to get into a specific group/camp and it was full you might ask to be put on the list but then you didn't just stand around waiting and fretting over it. You just went on and did other things, joined a different group or went off to solo. If, sometime later, they sent you a tell to come and join them, great. If not, no big deal.
I don't know, maybe it's just that I didn't obsess over getting those rare drops so it didn't bother me if I didn't immediately get into the groups I wanted to join.
Also, I'd be curious to know about this "jump in line for monster kills" stuff that you claimed to do. Let's go back to Guk again. A full group is camping some prime spot for the rare spawn and don't have a spot for you. How exactly did you "jump in line"? What, did you just hang around in the room waiting for the rare mob to spawn? And when it spawned just how exactly did you outdamage a full group to get credit for the kill? Unless you took your own full group down there and waited around (possibly for hours) for the rare mob to spawn I don't see how you could have done it.
I'm pretty sure that the rare mob wouldn't instantly spawn just because you happened to show up and I know for a fact it would have been damn near impossible for you to single handedly out damage an entire group even if you were playing a wizard. Especially since, in order to even have a chance to try, you would have to be hanging around in the room with the group the whole time while you waited for the rare mob and they would know exactly what you were up to and would be ready for it.
I believe you about the training part but you should have used a shadowknight. Being tanks with invis and invis to undead and feign death they were much better at that sort of thing.
On the main topic here; it's already been said but all of this anti-social behavior is a direct result of these games being designed to remove any inter-dependance among the players. At least during the leveling up phase you don't need anything from anyone. In these types of games other players can only hinder you, not help you, so naturally people become hostile and anti-social.
If, on the other hand, you needed other players, if they were a valuable asset to you, you would be much more likely to be friendly and try to cultivate a good reputation. There always have and always will be assholes. But the design of a game does have a direct influence on how strongly those asshole tendancies manifest and in how many people.
Seems you left out a few things, First though i have been in a pick up group b4 where the loot rules were established only to see the group leader change the loot to master looter and take all the loot, then run off laughing. This has happened to me more than once in a few different games. But alas we also have loot whores who are in fact gold spammers, you know the MMO criminal element. Those guys group up and kill steal mob after mob. Haven't we all been a victim of this? How come you did not mention this? It seems to me you left out one of the increasingly growing populations in MMOs. Why is that?
I think the problem has a lot to do with the current irrelevance of a player's server reputation.
It used to be that people knew one another a lot better than they do now, and they also needed each other a lot more than today. It was important in that time to have a decent server reputation. If people started thinking you were a douchebag, than you missed out on a lot.
But nowadays people don't seem to care. They just assume almost everyone is a douchebag and try to stick within their clans.
Plus, if you act so badly that you really do get a bad rep, people change servers, change their appearance, or change their name.
The new attitude is that I matter a lot, my guild matters some, and nobody else matters. Sad times for online gaming.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Now, if only gamers remembered the things they learned in preschool...
Seriously, gamers as a whole (that would be all of us) tend to forget how to be polite. We see <insert goal> and get tunnel vision because that is what games are designed to do: give us tunnel vision. Focus on the goal, not the means of getting there.
I am as guilty of it sometimes as the next player, and I've little doubt that Jamie has also fallen prey to the same temptation a time or two. Am I proud of being an ass on occasion? No. But I do admit that it does happen and I feel bad about it when it does - bad enough that I will usually stick around and help the poor soul whose kill I just stole afterwards if they will accept my help after I've been such a jerk to them.
Generally, though, I do try to have a look and see if anyone's about before I go rampaging in like a moron...but honestly, I sometimes get that tunnel vision. I think we all do.
...now where is that cookie monster? I need some cookies!!!
Firebrand Art
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
hahahahaha!
*points to Jamie's article*
...share?
Firebrand Art
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
And it's just going to get worse.
With the notion that all of the new mmo players enjoy the first hit = mine kill credit mechanic, I feel that that mechanic is both stale and childish. In truth, the game has much more depth if one takes into account the time one spends on the mob/damage done/damage taken/ etc. There should be a lot of factors that determine this. Even the purely damage done getting credit is more realistic and requires talent from other classes that are not so strong to overcome... or they'd just group up, which solves the problem easily. Games nowadays will continue into the direction of the "what is mine isn't yours" mentality because the majority of the community wants a single-player game in an mmo world with multi-player aspects instead of what should be the other way around. MMOs should strive to be more than just a playground.
O come on guys, sure there is a lot of selfishness ingame, but i love helping others, no one likes to come up short on those really long quests where the payout is 1 uber item and the whole group needs it. Part of the answer might be in programming individual loot tables for every group member. That would eliminate loot stealing altogether, if there was going to be loot for every team member that only that team member can access off the same mob, then problem solved, but as far as the social aspect of selfishness goes, If we want an environment where we work together, than maybe we should help set the example, and when that doesn't work, there was one time in vanguard where i followed a guy who kill stealed my boss mob while i was dealing with its henchmen and stole my loot and messed up my quest, where i had to restart it. I followed him around spamming "KILL STEALER" until he logged off, very public and very embarassing, Its stupid i know but I couldn't think of anything better at the time.
The truth is devs and GMs are not going to do anything about this, its up to us to make whatever game we play group friendly.
Raiding, guilds, and by extension exclusivity. These are the things which brought early EQ to an end. By kunark you realized that those people you helped into planar gear through pug raids were now your adversaries for VP keys (Trakanon kills primarily). You quickly learned that by helping others in a limited resources environment you would cause detriment to yourself and those in your guild. But yes, you're right--back in guk (uguk especially, lguk was bloodthirsty, as these were top-end items, especially frenzy/lord) we would often corpse retrieve (CR) each other without issues.
Fastforward to modern gaming. Many people came to WoW from other genres, where in pen and paper RPGs, the idea was to be together, most other genre's have winners and losers (board games, FPS, RTS, ARPG, etc) so the lense through which it's viewed is winners and losers. PVP in such games (and more modern games) clearly defines winners and losers, because people desire the win-lose duality. In the earlier case of VP keys, you learned that this was pretty much a zero-sum game here (zero sum in the sense that there were only X amount of keys at a given time due to long respawn rates of Trak and low teeth droprates). You needed to have every key in your possession, and all of a sudden, everyone is the enemy. Therefore you must win, and they must lose, so that them losing is the only way for you to advance (win). And unfortunately when "they who must lose" becomes everyone outside of your own cloistered guild, it becomes very competitive, and bam, high school cliques in your mmorpg again =P. EQ before the planes was pretty magical, and I think once people realize what kind of blight raiding (mostly the organized raiding--wow's seeing this now with it's soon to be LFR) has become on the genre the genre will expand further.
That said, personally, I'd run the countryside throwing xp rezzes--I'm simply trying to explain the perspective of how we've gone from allies in the early game (where helping others helped you) to enemies (where helping others hurts you) -- especially in a limited resource environment like EQ. -- I hope this answers any questions you may have had on the sharing problem o_O (namely involving early EQ to kunark transitioning).