Originally posted by SnarlingWolf I never said people weren't friendly to me, I could get a group whenever I wanted or needed one.
I was pointing you how there wasn't a golden age of MMOs where everyone hugged and got along, and I myself knew from experience by being one of those who abused those early weak systems to do so.
But no I've never had an issue finding a friendly person either then, or now, when I needed one in game. Try not completely misreading the post though and you won't be as confused.
If we're going to start getting snippy with each other I would suggest you make an effort to express yourself more coherently and maybe misunderstandings wouldn't arise.
In your first post you talked about people waiting three hours or all day to kill mobs and in the same paragraph talked about how you would take those mobs other people were waiting to kill. For anyone who played EQ this would surely suggest that you were talking about stealing rare spawn named mobs because there wasn't a common mob in the game that was on a three hour spawn timer. So maybe I should ask you specifically which mobs you were talking about that people waited "all day" to kill which you then "jumped in line" and took from them. I know what you were talking about now but you deliberately chose your wording to be misleading and you obviously did it for the purpose of creating negative imagery in people's minds.
I still don't know what you were talking about when you said people would "wait in line" to kill mobs because I certainly never saw people standing in a que waiting for their turn to kill something. I'm assuming it was just a choice of phrasing meant to, once again, create an exagerated negative image of non-instanced content.
You have also implied in your posts that the communities in early MMORPGs were no better than in later MMORPGs. Saying, in regards to this topic about community, that there was no peace and sharing, there was no golden age, etc. If you weren't trying to say that the communities in those older games were no better than modern games then what were you trying to say?
If you were merely pointing out that there were assholes in the early games, well, I'm sure everybody knows that. But were the communities as a whole more friendly? I would say that, in the early days of EQ at least, they were. Pointing out that there were jerks running around back then is not the point. Everyone already knows that. What you were trying to imply is obvious even though your wording was deliberately vague generalities.
If you don't want to create misunderstandings you should be more precise and coherent and stop trying to paint unpleasant pictures with vague imagery and then playing the martyr when I question you about it.
If you were merely pointing out that there were assholes in the early games, well, I'm sure everybody knows that. But were the communities as a whole more friendly? I would say that, in the early days of EQ at least, they were. Pointing out that there were jerks running around back then is not the point. Everyone already knows that. What you were trying to imply is obvious even though your wording was deliberately vague generalities.
Until now, there were still @ Holes in the game.. that's why I'm thinking is there any way that gaming managers would do something about it....
Not only have people seen communities change as they change games but communities change over time in the one game. The community in WoW pre-BC was worlds away from where it is now.
In classic WoW I never had any problems getting groups to help me kill that final quest mob that actually required a group. A simple region chat request would see a group form in 5-10 minutes and disband as the quest was completed. People didn't mind giving up a little bit of their time to help someone out. If you were getting camped, you put it out there in region chat and people came to help, often starting some pretty fun world pvp scenarios. You get camped now and ask over region and get abused, told to "l2play scrub" and called a noob.
Guilds meant something, if you saw someone in a good guild you knew you could trust them as the guilds tried to not only have a good raiding schedule they also tried to have a good reputation. It even worked for opposing sides - you learnt to hate people from certain enemy guilds, open world events could spill into battlegrounds and rivalries both guild and individual were started and nurtured.
Now in WoW we have cross-server everything. No one recognises anyone else because you can change server/name/appearance/sex without a thought these days. You would be hard-pressed to recognise the same players day to day. There really is no community anymore. The entire game system has moved to a disposable, fast-food mentality and that is one of the biggest reasons I left.
Community really doesn't seem to be an important aspect of MMOs these days. I think that is why a lot of gamers who were playing MMOs 5 or 10 years ago get accused of nostalgia so often. We all know the games we played were not perfect utopian playgrounds. But being a part of the community meant something and often made the game a hell of a lot more exciting and fun than it would have been otherwise.
In my time playing MMOs I distinctly remember 1 game with a community I would consider great. (not perfect, great) That game was FFXI.
In newer games, I generally get one of two feelings about my fellow players. Either, "they are all idiots" or "meh". I think this is because there are 3 things missing from newer games that all of the older ones had.
One, we all used to think of as evil. and that is downtime. Combat in FFXI was hard, and very involving. When you were in battle, there was no time to get to know your party members or other players. Thankfully, while you were resting between mobs you could chat about anything, and actually relate to each other. With downtime gone, people jump in your group, complete the objective, and jump out. Most times you don't even remember the character name.
Another thing is play variety. A game has to offer more than just dungeons and group quests. Some of my best MMO friends and memories were made while doing non-combat things. Crafting, fishing, exploring, building, etc. Stuff to do when you have 2 or 3 people and not a full group.
Lastly I think the lack of open worlds have hurt the sense of community. I remember making friends and getting to know my current friends better as we traveled somewhere far away, either by foot, airship, or chocobo. but i guess that just goes along with the downtime thing.
One of the greatest things about SWG was that you would see players just sitting around a cantina talking. sometimes Rping, sometimes not. and that was the beauty of it. Players did other things because there were other things to do. (Maybe the return of non-combat classes would help?)
Some of this is due to flaws in game design. Some of it is due to players so used to zerging through content thats all they do. If devs design games with "room" for social interaction, and players actually stop to see it. I think we could see good communities in games again
I am somebody that likes to take the initiative and invite people in newbie areas to group with me because I think it is silly not to do so, especially when waiting for a spawn that takes a few minutes. However, a significant portion of the people say no, and some explain why. Here are the top reasons that I've been given:
1) The content is designed to be soloable, and so it is unfair, or is easy mode, or something similar, to do it with a group.
2) Game mechanics favor not splitting experience with the group.
Not only have people seen communities change as they change games but communities change over time in the one game. The community in WoW pre-BC was worlds away from where it is now. In classic WoW I never had any problems getting groups to help me kill that final quest mob that actually required a group. A simple region chat request would see a group form in 5-10 minutes and disband as the quest was completed. People didn't mind giving up a little bit of their time to help someone out. If you were getting camped, you put it out there in region chat and people came to help, often starting some pretty fun world pvp scenarios. You get camped now and ask over region and get abused, told to "l2play scrub" and called a noob. Guilds meant something, if you saw someone in a good guild you knew you could trust them as the guilds tried to not only have a good raiding schedule they also tried to have a good reputation. It even worked for opposing sides - you learnt to hate people from certain enemy guilds, open world events could spill into battlegrounds and rivalries both guild and individual were started and nurtured. Now in WoW we have cross-server everything. THIS is why the oh so fooking "loved" new LFG tool....was one of the final straws for me. It did NOT improve the community of the game, and the community is ONE OF the game's greatest problems. No one recognises anyone else because you can change server/name/appearance/sex without a thought these days. You would be hard-pressed to recognise the same players day to day. There really is no community anymore. The entire game system has moved to a disposable, fast-food mentality and that is one of the biggest reasons I left. I second that emotion. Community really doesn't seem to be an important aspect of MMOs these days. I think that is why a lot of gamers who were playing MMOs 5 or 10 years ago get accused of nostalgia so often. We all know the games we played were not perfect utopian playgrounds. But being a part of the community meant something and often made the game a hell of a lot more exciting and fun than it would have been otherwise. TRUTH.
Absolutely everything you said here is TRUE. Either we've BOTH lost our minds, or our experiences were identical. I wager that we're not the only two that had this experience with pre-BC WoW.
Regardless of what anyone says....the community experience in WoW USED TO BE far better, and...the experience NOW in (at least) EQ2 and LotRO is very VERY different from the community experience now in WoW.
Now I don't know, again...what exactly is the discrepancy here between these games, if it's just population, age difference, prior gaming experience of the over all player base, the type of games they are, or what. But there is definitely a marked difference in community experience. And the people that are presently playing WoW can argue that ALL they want....it doesn't change it.
Sure...you can turn off trade chat, turn off general, not speak to anyone outside of your guild, etc., etc., but why should you HAVE to do those things to enjoy a game? To me....that isn't acceptable. One part of MMOs that I have always enjoyed is that they are social. And like all of society, there have always been a few "bad eggs." But when the number of "bad eggs" starts outnumbering the "good eggs," it's time, at least for me, to throw out that carton of eggs, so to speak. (I know that's not a good analogy, but I was on a roll with the "bad egg/good egg" thing. heh)
I think the problem has a lot to do with the current irrelevance of a player's server reputation.
It used to be that people knew one another a lot better than they do now, and they also needed each other a lot more than today. It was important in that time to have a decent server reputation. If people started thinking you were a douchebag, than you missed out on a lot.
But nowadays people don't seem to care. They just assume almost everyone is a douchebag and try to stick within their clans.
Plus, if you act so badly that you really do get a bad rep, people change servers, change their appearance, or change their name.
The new attitude is that I matter a lot, my guild matters some, and nobody else matters. Sad times for online gaming.
This post nails much of what older generations of gaming had. Obviously, there are bad apples now, just as then, and here, just as there. The difference that was truly felt was one of increased personalization and decreased anonymity. When a game's mechanics nigh require each individual to play nice and work together, then people do so. Wether it be out of goodness of heart or coercion is irrellivant. When people *need* people, then a collective value is embraced and the bad apples weed themselves out. Otherwise, said bad apples lay their seed, and attitudes being contagious...
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Comments
If we're going to start getting snippy with each other I would suggest you make an effort to express yourself more coherently and maybe misunderstandings wouldn't arise.
In your first post you talked about people waiting three hours or all day to kill mobs and in the same paragraph talked about how you would take those mobs other people were waiting to kill. For anyone who played EQ this would surely suggest that you were talking about stealing rare spawn named mobs because there wasn't a common mob in the game that was on a three hour spawn timer. So maybe I should ask you specifically which mobs you were talking about that people waited "all day" to kill which you then "jumped in line" and took from them. I know what you were talking about now but you deliberately chose your wording to be misleading and you obviously did it for the purpose of creating negative imagery in people's minds.
I still don't know what you were talking about when you said people would "wait in line" to kill mobs because I certainly never saw people standing in a que waiting for their turn to kill something. I'm assuming it was just a choice of phrasing meant to, once again, create an exagerated negative image of non-instanced content.
You have also implied in your posts that the communities in early MMORPGs were no better than in later MMORPGs. Saying, in regards to this topic about community, that there was no peace and sharing, there was no golden age, etc. If you weren't trying to say that the communities in those older games were no better than modern games then what were you trying to say?
If you were merely pointing out that there were assholes in the early games, well, I'm sure everybody knows that. But were the communities as a whole more friendly? I would say that, in the early days of EQ at least, they were. Pointing out that there were jerks running around back then is not the point. Everyone already knows that. What you were trying to imply is obvious even though your wording was deliberately vague generalities.
If you don't want to create misunderstandings you should be more precise and coherent and stop trying to paint unpleasant pictures with vague imagery and then playing the martyr when I question you about it.
Until now, there were still @ Holes in the game.. that's why I'm thinking is there any way that gaming managers would do something about it....
Not only have people seen communities change as they change games but communities change over time in the one game. The community in WoW pre-BC was worlds away from where it is now.
In classic WoW I never had any problems getting groups to help me kill that final quest mob that actually required a group. A simple region chat request would see a group form in 5-10 minutes and disband as the quest was completed. People didn't mind giving up a little bit of their time to help someone out. If you were getting camped, you put it out there in region chat and people came to help, often starting some pretty fun world pvp scenarios. You get camped now and ask over region and get abused, told to "l2play scrub" and called a noob.
Guilds meant something, if you saw someone in a good guild you knew you could trust them as the guilds tried to not only have a good raiding schedule they also tried to have a good reputation. It even worked for opposing sides - you learnt to hate people from certain enemy guilds, open world events could spill into battlegrounds and rivalries both guild and individual were started and nurtured.
Now in WoW we have cross-server everything. No one recognises anyone else because you can change server/name/appearance/sex without a thought these days. You would be hard-pressed to recognise the same players day to day. There really is no community anymore. The entire game system has moved to a disposable, fast-food mentality and that is one of the biggest reasons I left.
Community really doesn't seem to be an important aspect of MMOs these days. I think that is why a lot of gamers who were playing MMOs 5 or 10 years ago get accused of nostalgia so often. We all know the games we played were not perfect utopian playgrounds. But being a part of the community meant something and often made the game a hell of a lot more exciting and fun than it would have been otherwise.
In my time playing MMOs I distinctly remember 1 game with a community I would consider great. (not perfect, great) That game was FFXI.
In newer games, I generally get one of two feelings about my fellow players. Either, "they are all idiots" or "meh". I think this is because there are 3 things missing from newer games that all of the older ones had.
One, we all used to think of as evil. and that is downtime. Combat in FFXI was hard, and very involving. When you were in battle, there was no time to get to know your party members or other players. Thankfully, while you were resting between mobs you could chat about anything, and actually relate to each other. With downtime gone, people jump in your group, complete the objective, and jump out. Most times you don't even remember the character name.
Another thing is play variety. A game has to offer more than just dungeons and group quests. Some of my best MMO friends and memories were made while doing non-combat things. Crafting, fishing, exploring, building, etc. Stuff to do when you have 2 or 3 people and not a full group.
Lastly I think the lack of open worlds have hurt the sense of community. I remember making friends and getting to know my current friends better as we traveled somewhere far away, either by foot, airship, or chocobo. but i guess that just goes along with the downtime thing.
One of the greatest things about SWG was that you would see players just sitting around a cantina talking. sometimes Rping, sometimes not. and that was the beauty of it. Players did other things because there were other things to do. (Maybe the return of non-combat classes would help?)
Some of this is due to flaws in game design. Some of it is due to players so used to zerging through content thats all they do. If devs design games with "room" for social interaction, and players actually stop to see it. I think we could see good communities in games again
I am somebody that likes to take the initiative and invite people in newbie areas to group with me because I think it is silly not to do so, especially when waiting for a spawn that takes a few minutes. However, a significant portion of the people say no, and some explain why. Here are the top reasons that I've been given:
1) The content is designed to be soloable, and so it is unfair, or is easy mode, or something similar, to do it with a group.
2) Game mechanics favor not splitting experience with the group.
3) Its too much trouble.
4) They just want to be alone.
Absolutely everything you said here is TRUE. Either we've BOTH lost our minds, or our experiences were identical. I wager that we're not the only two that had this experience with pre-BC WoW.
Regardless of what anyone says....the community experience in WoW USED TO BE far better, and...the experience NOW in (at least) EQ2 and LotRO is very VERY different from the community experience now in WoW.
Now I don't know, again...what exactly is the discrepancy here between these games, if it's just population, age difference, prior gaming experience of the over all player base, the type of games they are, or what. But there is definitely a marked difference in community experience. And the people that are presently playing WoW can argue that ALL they want....it doesn't change it.
Sure...you can turn off trade chat, turn off general, not speak to anyone outside of your guild, etc., etc., but why should you HAVE to do those things to enjoy a game? To me....that isn't acceptable. One part of MMOs that I have always enjoyed is that they are social. And like all of society, there have always been a few "bad eggs." But when the number of "bad eggs" starts outnumbering the "good eggs," it's time, at least for me, to throw out that carton of eggs, so to speak. (I know that's not a good analogy, but I was on a roll with the "bad egg/good egg" thing. heh)
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
This post nails much of what older generations of gaming had. Obviously, there are bad apples now, just as then, and here, just as there. The difference that was truly felt was one of increased personalization and decreased anonymity. When a game's mechanics nigh require each individual to play nice and work together, then people do so. Wether it be out of goodness of heart or coercion is irrellivant. When people *need* people, then a collective value is embraced and the bad apples weed themselves out. Otherwise, said bad apples lay their seed, and attitudes being contagious...
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter