"Dumbed down" it seems, is often used to describe removing things that didn't require brains to begin with. Such as finding quest mobs, running long distances or simply waiting. It's a silly phrase, poorly defined and usually misused, much like "deep".
The phrase can be ambiguous but the process it represents certainly exists. Games are becoming easier; to increase their potential market as one gaming CEO said “we want everyone and your mom to be able to play them”. This is easiest to identify in game titles which have a long history.
Some examples, all PC:
In the last ‘Prince of Persia’ you could not die. Fall of a ledge and your companion rescues you; you don’t even have a health bar! Compare this to PoP in its earlier versions where one slip and you started from the game generated save point.
In ‘Dead Space’ you have a FPS with an emphasis on horror and your ability to aim your gun. Let one creature get too close and you are dead in seconds. The new one already looks like it will be more blast them, you will be tougher and the game will be easier.
‘Fallout’- in the first two games you could not get rid of your radiation level. So you had to balance going into an area with the fact you could die before the game was over from radiation. In FO3 you get radiation removers.
MMO’s themselves are a rich source of ‘dumbing down’. Less focusing on raids, less need to group, simpler quests and the ability in cash shop games to actually buy your level without actually playing to get it.
So the phrase is and odd one, but the process is very real.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe 110 hotkeys, brick thick manuals and stragegy guides do not make a game deep or intelligent. They just put on a good show before someone wades through all the crap and finds the most cheap, broke ass strategy.
One favoured strategy is a matter of balance, the game can still have depth.
I would say you refer to being 'dumbed down' when a complexity and depth of game mechanics is getting replaced by accessibility and easiness to get in so every 'dumb' can play it.
"Dumbed down" it seems, is often used to describe removing things that didn't require brains to begin with. Such as finding quest mobs, running long distances or simply waiting. It's a silly phrase, poorly defined and usually misused, much like "deep".
Actually, trying to locate quest mobs can be challenging, managing travel times and your strategies to minimize them (or use them to your advantage against your enemy) and figuring out the best time to find a mob when others aren't around are actually what can give an MMORPG more depth.
The removal of these things is in fact part of the decline in terms of challenge vs accessibility that most MMORPG makers have chosen today which is why fans of the earlier games decry them and use terms like dumbed down, over simplified and unchallenging.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
‘Fallout’- in the first two games you could not get rid of your radiation level. So you had to balance going into an area with the fact you could die before the game was over from radiation. In FO3 you get radiation removers.
Erm... There was rad away in Fallout 1 and 2, and it wasn't all that hard to find, so you could easily remove radiation.
This NPC with the gigantic yellow question mark over his head knows the answer to what dumbed down means. He is marked on your gps satellite map so that you can find him without needing to read the quest text. And you can use a mod that will create a line between you and him in case the satellite map wasn't enough. If you should be killed looking for him there will be no penalty. But that is not likely to happen because unless he is in an instance you will never be in any real danger while you search for him.
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Originally posted by Amathe This NPC with the gigantic yellow question mark over his head knows the answer to what dumbed down means. He is marked on your gps satellite map so that you can find him without needing to read the quest text.
Games that do not have such feature or similar mechanics are indeed dumb.
This NPC with the gigantic yellow question mark over his head knows the answer to what dumbed down means. He is marked on your gps satellite map so that you can find him without needing to read the quest text. And you can use a mod that will create a line between you and him in case the satellite map wasn't enough. If you should be killed looking for him there will be no penalty. But that is not likely to happen because unless he is in an instance you will never be in any real danger while you search for him.
I just don't see how walking up to every NPC is the game until you find the right one is smart or interesting or fun.
It just seems tedious.
I don't like finding NPC's even with the big question marks on their heads. Why do I need to go find a stupid NPC to read the stupid scripted dialog? What's fun about that?
It would be 10x worse to have to go talk to every stupid NPC just to find the right one so I can read the stupid scripted dialog.
It would be like climbing to the top of Mt. Everest so you can get a turd.
Thanks for climbing the whole mountain. Here's a turd!
Thanks for spending hours searching me out and finally finding me. Now let me tell you some stupid scripted dialog about how you can find an old sock I lost! Then, bring the sock back to me, and I'll give you a rusty dagger!
This NPC with the gigantic yellow question mark over his head knows the answer to what dumbed down means. He is marked on your gps satellite map so that you can find him without needing to read the quest text. And you can use a mod that will create a line between you and him in case the satellite map wasn't enough. If you should be killed looking for him there will be no penalty. But that is not likely to happen because unless he is in an instance you will never be in any real danger while you search for him.
I just don't see how walking up to every NPC is the game until you find the right one is smart or interesting or fun.
It just seems tedious.
The OP's question was not whether any given player likes or doesn't like a particular feature. The question was what does it mean for a game to be dumbed down? Paint by numbers play may be more fun for some people. A LOT of people actually, looking at WoW's numbers. But of course Farmville has a large following too, which takes a lot less thought to play than WoW. So it must be better.
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I just don't see how walking up to every NPC is the game until you find the right one is smart or interesting or fun.
Don't you know the answer?
For some people it is 'hardcore', it does not change the fact it is dumb and tedious though...
Nothing to do with being "hardcore", it's immersive. Suddenly, all NPCs seem like they have a purpose, its part of the living virtual world. You talk to some, some just say funny things, others will redirect you to other NPCs that need help.
Of course, this system worked in games that didn't have quest grinds, might be harder in games like WoW or LotRO, but thats part of the problem of a quest grind game.
‘Fallout’- in the first two games you could not get rid of your radiation level. So you had to balance going into an area with the fact you could die before the game was over from radiation. In FO3 you get radiation removers.
Erm... There was rad away in Fallout 1 and 2, and it wasn't all that hard to find, so you could easily remove radiation.
In Fallout 1 I remember getting severe radiation almost to the point of death, then trying to sleep it off, then waking up with super mutant stats and no more radiation. At the time I thought it was completely awesome because I had someone managed to bio-engineer myself. I later found out it was a bug in the game which made my discovery less awesome.
I just don't see how walking up to every NPC is the game until you find the right one is smart or interesting or fun.
Don't you know the answer?
For some people it is 'hardcore', it does not change the fact it is dumb and tedious though...
It's not - at least for me - a question of what or who is "hardcore." I don't care about that.
It's about the difference between a world that has mysteries, suspense, danger, risk, puzzles to solve, challenges to be thought through, meaningful exploration, impediments to gratification, and a need for community, on the one hand, and a virtual pez dispenser of loot and items that merely requires a mouse click for its rewards.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Warhammer dumbed down questing, so that when you opened your map it showed you were to go. How can this not be considered a "dumbing down" process?
"Dumbing down" is taking the challenge out of whatever was "dumbed down". Yes, that can also mean taking what some people consider tedious exercises, and making them instant gratification. Like the ! and ? that signify the start of end of a quest.
Sometimes "dumbing down" makes sense. Sometimes, imo, it kills immersion. Why pay attention to the game world when everything is labeled "?" or "!"? There is no need. I just run mindlessly around looking for those symbols instead of exploring my surroundings.
I think its kind of ironic someone would ask what "dumbing down" means.
Seriously! Look at the phrase. LOOK AT IT!!!! The implication being that at one time a particular game was "intelligent" but has undergone some unholy voodoo and been turned into a version of Chutes and Ladders or, even worse, Ludo. This term is normally used in reference to a multiplatform game that was made for consoles and PC at the same time. What's so confusing is when the term is applied to a brand new franchise that plays exactly the same on all platforms. How can you "dumb down" something that didn't even exsist previously? You can claim that one control type is less efficient than another, but that isn't the same as watering down the core mechanics. Let's take Command & Conquer 3 as an example. Both the PC and console versions of the game use the exact same maps, the exact same factions, the exact same unit caps, and the exact same units. What exactly was "dumbed down?" Same thing with Morrowind. Both the PC and XBox versions had the same maps, the same kind of first/third person minimal interface, the quests, the items, the same NPCs... If it's the exact same game at it's core, how can it be "dumbed down?" You might be able to say this about a game that started out on the PC and was poorly ported to a console, like CiV 2 being placed on the PSX near the end of it's life cycle, but If it was developed for both the PC and consoles or it was a one-for-one port.... And while we're on the subject, was Assassin's Creed "smarted up" by being ported to the PC? I'm calling bullshit on this term and it's use.
The term "dumbed down" generally refers to ports of PC to console or vis versa where the console version has to be simplified in order to work on the console. This means that if it is developed first on the console it is developed for that platform and therefore does not (always) take advantage of the assests available on the PC. Take a game like Modern Warfare 2. In many ways it looks very similar on both platforms. In some ways it plays the same. However, when you look closer, you see several things. First, the graphics can be better on the PC version. Second, the method of control is smoother on the PC version. And lastly, the number of players in online matches is higher on the PC version. So, in this case, the console version could be said to be "dumbed down" for that console. You could also argue that the PC version did not get the most out of the PC platform as well so there might be an argument that the PC versioin was "dumbed down" due to the presence of a console version for ease of development.
Now, do not get me wrong. Consoles have come a long way from the Commodore and Atari days. Back then, those systems used one or two buttons and had a single analog joystick for control. Today, most consoles have multiple buttons and at least two digital joysticks and an analog keypad. Also, today consoles have better CPU's and GPU's compared to their predecessors. However, those improvements still do not meet either the control capabilities nor CPU/GPU capacities of the latest PC. So, yes, consoles are not in any way superior. The only thing that IS the same....they are both computers.
Originally posted by Garvon3 Nothing to do with being "hardcore", it's immersive. Suddenly, all NPCs seem like they have a purpose, its part of the living virtual world. You talk to some, some just say funny things, others will redirect you to other NPCs that need help. Of course, this system worked in games that didn't have quest grinds, might be harder in games like WoW or LotRO, but thats part of the problem of a quest grind game.
Originally posted by Amathe It's not - at least for me - a question of what or who is "hardcore." I don't care about that. It's about the difference between a world that has mysteries, suspense, danger, risk, puzzles to solve, challenges to be thought through, meaningful exploration, impediments to gratification, and a need for community, on the one hand, and a virtual pez dispenser of loot and items that merely requires a mouse click for its rewards.
I just used term 'hardcore' with apostrophe to include all people who think that having to run around in despair to find a particular NPC will make the game 'better' for whatever subjective irrelevant reason they have.
Nothing to do with being "hardcore", it's immersive. Suddenly, all NPCs seem like they have a purpose, its part of the living virtual world. You talk to some, some just say funny things, others will redirect you to other NPCs that need help.
Of course, this system worked in games that didn't have quest grinds, might be harder in games like WoW or LotRO, but thats part of the problem of a quest grind game.
Originally posted by Amathe
It's not - at least for me - a question of what or who is "hardcore." I don't care about that.
It's about the difference between a world that has mysteries, suspense, danger, risk, puzzles to solve, challenges to be thought through, meaningful exploration, impediments to gratification, and a need for community, on the one hand, and a virtual pez dispenser of loot and items that merely requires a mouse click for its rewards.
I just used term 'hardcore' with apostrophe to include all people who think that having to run around in despair to find a particular NPC will make the game 'better' for whatever subjective irrelevant reason they have.
Sorry, those of us with an IQ over 5 never had a problem finding NPCs. If it ever did take a little bit, I'd walk up to a guard, and ask him where the NPC was, and he'd emote point me in the right direction.
Seriously! Look at the phrase. LOOK AT IT!!!! I'm calling bullshit on this term and it's use.
Call BS on the term all you want. Just because someone calls something one dislikes a pejorative term for a perceived over-simplification, doesn't mean it isn't accurate.
That's what the term means. In the verb phrase, is means to make or become less intellectual, simpler, or less sophisticated; a simplification.
It's a completely accurate and real term when discussing a whole host of mmorpg's from the perspective of one that finds a simpleton game less appealing then a more complex, some might say mature, challenging game. A more challenging game might be EVE or Ryzom in it's day. A simpler game to me that is dumbed-down from that higher level of player-centricity, challenge, immersion, suspense, unpredictability, could be CoH, Champions Online, WAR, STO; games that are simplistic, hold your hand with game-play tools and entitlements that make the game easy to engage in without slight challenge or consequences for actions, virtual loss.
So, no. It's not about harcore at all to me, but about a little more complexity that requires more intelligence to play. I like the stimulus of games that aren't dumbed down for those that like simpler affairs or engagements. That's my example.
Striving for Silver Stars since Gold is so effeminate.
I just used term 'hardcore' with apostrophe to include all people who think that having to run around in despair to find a particular NPC will make the game 'better' for whatever subjective irrelevant reason they have.
Before game communities were flooded with people who seem to need BIG YELLOW EXCLAMATION POINTS, we didn't "run around in despair." We read the quest text. We thought. We even made maps. Thinking and solving problems was part of the fun, because thoughtful people enjoy thinking. It's not something they find tedious or that induces despair.
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Nothing to do with being "hardcore", it's immersive. Suddenly, all NPCs seem like they have a purpose, its part of the living virtual world. You talk to some, some just say funny things, others will redirect you to other NPCs that need help.
Of course, this system worked in games that didn't have quest grinds, might be harder in games like WoW or LotRO, but thats part of the problem of a quest grind game.
Originally posted by Amathe
It's not - at least for me - a question of what or who is "hardcore." I don't care about that.
It's about the difference between a world that has mysteries, suspense, danger, risk, puzzles to solve, challenges to be thought through, meaningful exploration, impediments to gratification, and a need for community, on the one hand, and a virtual pez dispenser of loot and items that merely requires a mouse click for its rewards.
I just used term 'hardcore' with apostrophe to include all people who think that having to run around in despair to find a particular NPC will make the game 'better' for whatever subjective irrelevant reason they have.
Some people enjoy the challenge. Heck, why stop at labeling quest NPCs? Why not just log into the game max leveled, max skilled, and max geared? Why put all that other irrelevant subjective bull crap in the game? Its just a waste.
I suppose to me its a philosophy. If a game thinks it has to hold your hand every step of the way I will get bored very easily. I need stimulation and challenge. If a game doesn't even expect me to be able to find my quest turn-in I don't think that game is going to offer me much.
Originally posted by Garvon3 Sorry, those of us with an IQ over 5 never had a problem finding NPCs. If it ever did take a little bit, I'd walk up to a guard, and ask him where the NPC was, and he'd emote point me in the right direction.
Originally posted by Amathe Before game communities were flooded with people who seem to need BIG YELLOW EXCLAMATION POINTS, we didn't "run around in despair." We read the quest text. We thought. We even made maps. Thinking and solving problems was part of the fun. Thoughtful people enjoy thinking. It's not something they find tedious or that induces despair.
Before the game community was flooded with people who think they are better than others just because of game they play and gameplay they prefer...
Seriously! Look at the phrase. LOOK AT IT!!!! I'm calling bullshit on this term and it's use.
Call BS on the term all you want. Just because someone calls something one dislikes a pejorative term for a perceived over-simplification, doesn't mean it isn't accurate.
That's what the term means. In the verb phrase, is means to make or become less intellectual, simpler, or less sophisticated; a simplification.
It's a completely accurate and real term when discussing a whole host of mmorpg's from the perspective of one that finds a simpleton game less appealing then a more complex, some might say mature, challenging game. A more challenging game might be EVE or Ryzom in it's day. A simpler game to me that is dumbed-down from that higher level of player-centricity, challenge, immersion, suspense, unpredictability, could be CoH, Champions Online, WAR, STO; games that are simplistic, hold your hand with game-play tools and entitlements that make the game easy to engage in without slight challenge or consequences for actions, virtual loss.
So, no. It's not about harcore at all to me, but about a little more complexity that requires more intelligence to play. I like the stimulus of games that aren't dumbed down for those that like simpler affairs or engagements. That's my example.
What the industry calls it is streamlining a product. A lot of the systems in mass effect 2 were changed from how they were in part one. Would you call it dumbing down? Or is it a more representative term to call it as the industry does? Streamlined, is much a better term IMO. As it describes exactly what they have done.
Is micro management actually "smarter"? Or is it archaic? I guess it really depends on the use and the product you're talking about. Lets look at WOW, was it a dumbed down MMO or was it a MMO that was streamlined to cut down on micro management and tedious game-play mechanics?
I'd bet on the latter, as with most Blizzard products they have always tried to improve on their products by making them more user friendly. That's what most people call dumbed down, when all it is is trying to make something more user friendly. It helps one have more fun rather than deal with tedious boring mechanics that detract from the overall experience.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Seriously! Look at the phrase. LOOK AT IT!!!! The implication being that at one time a particular game was "intelligent" but has undergone some unholy voodoo and been turned into a version of Chutes and Ladders or, even worse, Ludo. This term is normally used in reference to a multiplatform game that was made for consoles and PC at the same time. What's so confusing is when the term is applied to a brand new franchise that plays exactly the same on all platforms. How can you "dumb down" something that didn't even exsist previously? You can claim that one control type is less efficient than another, but that isn't the same as watering down the core mechanics. Let's take Command & Conquer 3 as an example. Both the PC and console versions of the game use the exact same maps, the exact same factions, the exact same unit caps, and the exact same units. What exactly was "dumbed down?" Same thing with Morrowind. Both the PC and XBox versions had the same maps, the same kind of first/third person minimal interface, the quests, the items, the same NPCs... If it's the exact same game at it's core, how can it be "dumbed down?" You might be able to say this about a game that started out on the PC and was poorly ported to a console, like CiV 2 being placed on the PSX near the end of it's life cycle, but If it was developed for both the PC and consoles or it was a one-for-one port.... And while we're on the subject, was Assassin's Creed "smarted up" by being ported to the PC? I'm calling bullshit on this term and it's use.
I think you miss understand see 'dumbed down" means a game thats easier, not as fresh or exciting and is shorter/noob friendlier then the previous title, Final Fantasy XIII is a very very good example of this. Final Fantasy XII although a different combat system then FFX and all the previous was loaded with content and had hours of gameplay and alot of grinding/thinking was needed or game over, it was only hated because it wasn't as easy as the previous titles.
But yeah what your saying dumbed down means a game that was ported from its original platform to another, this isnt what the phrase means it means a game that has become easier, shorter, more noob friendly of the title before it, "Lost its touch" can also be used. Again Final Fantasy XIII is a prime example. Spamming auto attack is great!
I think you miss understand see 'dumbed down" means a game thats easier, not as fresh or exciting and is shorter/noob friendlier then the previous title, Final Fantasy XIII is a very very good example of this. Final Fantasy XII although a different combat system then FFX and all the previous was loaded with content and had hours of gameplay and alot of grinding/thinking was needed or game over, it was only hated because it wasn't as easy as the previous titles.
But yeah what your saying dumbed down means a game that was ported from its original platform to another, this isnt what the phrase means it means a game that has become easier, shorter, more noob friendly of the title before it, "Lost its touch" can also be used. Again Final Fantasy XIII is a prime example. Spamming auto attack is great!
With final fantasy I wouldn't call that dumbing down a product. I call that changing the focus of a product. The game-play itself is still very much FF, the problem is they took away the world. That's doesn't make the game easier, it makes the game a different game.
I'm hard pressed to even call it an RPG simply because all it is now is a story and some combat.
That's not what is usually referred to as dumbing down a product, that's gutting one and making it something else.
Dumbing down or as I prefer to say streamlining a product means to adjust how systems work to cut down on micro management and tedious mechanics. Like I pointed out above with Mass Effect 2. Which is still very much the same game, it is just easier to manage everything. Does that mean it was smarter before, or required a higher degree of intelligence? No.
It means the developers found their design archaic, and thought they could make it better.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Seriously! Look at the phrase. LOOK AT IT!!!! I'm calling bullshit on this term and it's use.
Call BS on the term all you want. Just because someone calls something one dislikes a pejorative term for a perceived over-simplification, doesn't mean it isn't accurate.
That's what the term means. In the verb phrase, is means to make or become less intellectual, simpler, or less sophisticated; a simplification.
It's a completely accurate and real term when discussing a whole host of mmorpg's from the perspective of one that finds a simpleton game less appealing then a more complex, some might say mature, challenging game. A more challenging game might be EVE or Ryzom in it's day. A simpler game to me that is dumbed-down from that higher level of player-centricity, challenge, immersion, suspense, unpredictability, could be CoH, Champions Online, WAR, STO; games that are simplistic, hold your hand with game-play tools and entitlements that make the game easy to engage in without slight challenge or consequences for actions, virtual loss.
So, no. It's not about harcore at all to me, but about a little more complexity that requires more intelligence to play. I like the stimulus of games that aren't dumbed down for those that like simpler affairs or engagements. That's my example.
What the industry calls it is streamlining a product. A lot of the systems in mass effect 2 were changed from how they were in part one. Would you call it dumbing down? Or is it a more representative term to call it as the industry does? Streamlined, is much a better term IMO. As it describes exactly what they have done.
Is micro management actually "smarter"? Or is it archaic? I guess it really depends on the use and the product you're talking about. Lets look at WOW, was it a dumbed down MMO or was it a MMO that was streamlined to cut down on micro management and tedious game-play mechanics?
I'd bet on the latter, as with most Blizzard products they have always tried to improve on their products by making them more user friendly. That's what most people call dumbed down, when all it is is trying to make something more user friendly. It helps one have more fun rather than deal with tedious boring mechanics that detract from the overall experience.
The games I mentioned that you might consider "streamlined" were made so user friendly, they hardly have users to boast about; go figure.
Striving for Silver Stars since Gold is so effeminate.
Comments
"Dumbed down" it seems, is often used to describe removing things that didn't require brains to begin with. Such as finding quest mobs, running long distances or simply waiting. It's a silly phrase, poorly defined and usually misused, much like "deep".
The phrase can be ambiguous but the process it represents certainly exists. Games are becoming easier; to increase their potential market as one gaming CEO said “we want everyone and your mom to be able to play them”. This is easiest to identify in game titles which have a long history.
Some examples, all PC:
In the last ‘Prince of Persia’ you could not die. Fall of a ledge and your companion rescues you; you don’t even have a health bar! Compare this to PoP in its earlier versions where one slip and you started from the game generated save point.
In ‘Dead Space’ you have a FPS with an emphasis on horror and your ability to aim your gun. Let one creature get too close and you are dead in seconds. The new one already looks like it will be more blast them, you will be tougher and the game will be easier.
‘Fallout’- in the first two games you could not get rid of your radiation level. So you had to balance going into an area with the fact you could die before the game was over from radiation. In FO3 you get radiation removers.
MMO’s themselves are a rich source of ‘dumbing down’. Less focusing on raids, less need to group, simpler quests and the ability in cash shop games to actually buy your level without actually playing to get it.
So the phrase is and odd one, but the process is very real.
One favoured strategy is a matter of balance, the game can still have depth.
I would say you refer to being 'dumbed down' when a complexity and depth of game mechanics is getting replaced by accessibility and easiness to get in so every 'dumb' can play it.
Actually, trying to locate quest mobs can be challenging, managing travel times and your strategies to minimize them (or use them to your advantage against your enemy) and figuring out the best time to find a mob when others aren't around are actually what can give an MMORPG more depth.
The removal of these things is in fact part of the decline in terms of challenge vs accessibility that most MMORPG makers have chosen today which is why fans of the earlier games decry them and use terms like dumbed down, over simplified and unchallenging.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Erm... There was rad away in Fallout 1 and 2, and it wasn't all that hard to find, so you could easily remove radiation.
This NPC with the gigantic yellow question mark over his head knows the answer to what dumbed down means. He is marked on your gps satellite map so that you can find him without needing to read the quest text. And you can use a mod that will create a line between you and him in case the satellite map wasn't enough. If you should be killed looking for him there will be no penalty. But that is not likely to happen because unless he is in an instance you will never be in any real danger while you search for him.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Games that do not have such feature or similar mechanics are indeed dumb.
I just don't see how walking up to every NPC is the game until you find the right one is smart or interesting or fun.
It just seems tedious.
I don't like finding NPC's even with the big question marks on their heads. Why do I need to go find a stupid NPC to read the stupid scripted dialog? What's fun about that?
It would be 10x worse to have to go talk to every stupid NPC just to find the right one so I can read the stupid scripted dialog.
It would be like climbing to the top of Mt. Everest so you can get a turd.
Thanks for climbing the whole mountain. Here's a turd!
Thanks for spending hours searching me out and finally finding me. Now let me tell you some stupid scripted dialog about how you can find an old sock I lost! Then, bring the sock back to me, and I'll give you a rusty dagger!
Don't you know the answer?
For some people it is 'hardcore', it does not change the fact it is dumb and tedious though...
I just don't see how walking up to every NPC is the game until you find the right one is smart or interesting or fun.
It just seems tedious.
The OP's question was not whether any given player likes or doesn't like a particular feature. The question was what does it mean for a game to be dumbed down? Paint by numbers play may be more fun for some people. A LOT of people actually, looking at WoW's numbers. But of course Farmville has a large following too, which takes a lot less thought to play than WoW. So it must be better.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Don't you know the answer?
For some people it is 'hardcore', it does not change the fact it is dumb and tedious though...
Nothing to do with being "hardcore", it's immersive. Suddenly, all NPCs seem like they have a purpose, its part of the living virtual world. You talk to some, some just say funny things, others will redirect you to other NPCs that need help.
Of course, this system worked in games that didn't have quest grinds, might be harder in games like WoW or LotRO, but thats part of the problem of a quest grind game.
Erm... There was rad away in Fallout 1 and 2, and it wasn't all that hard to find, so you could easily remove radiation.
In Fallout 1 I remember getting severe radiation almost to the point of death, then trying to sleep it off, then waking up with super mutant stats and no more radiation. At the time I thought it was completely awesome because I had someone managed to bio-engineer myself. I later found out it was a bug in the game which made my discovery less awesome.
Don't you know the answer?
For some people it is 'hardcore', it does not change the fact it is dumb and tedious though...
It's not - at least for me - a question of what or who is "hardcore." I don't care about that.
It's about the difference between a world that has mysteries, suspense, danger, risk, puzzles to solve, challenges to be thought through, meaningful exploration, impediments to gratification, and a need for community, on the one hand, and a virtual pez dispenser of loot and items that merely requires a mouse click for its rewards.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Warhammer dumbed down questing, so that when you opened your map it showed you were to go. How can this not be considered a "dumbing down" process?
"Dumbing down" is taking the challenge out of whatever was "dumbed down". Yes, that can also mean taking what some people consider tedious exercises, and making them instant gratification. Like the ! and ? that signify the start of end of a quest.
Sometimes "dumbing down" makes sense. Sometimes, imo, it kills immersion. Why pay attention to the game world when everything is labeled "?" or "!"? There is no need. I just run mindlessly around looking for those symbols instead of exploring my surroundings.
I think its kind of ironic someone would ask what "dumbing down" means.
The term "dumbed down" generally refers to ports of PC to console or vis versa where the console version has to be simplified in order to work on the console. This means that if it is developed first on the console it is developed for that platform and therefore does not (always) take advantage of the assests available on the PC. Take a game like Modern Warfare 2. In many ways it looks very similar on both platforms. In some ways it plays the same. However, when you look closer, you see several things. First, the graphics can be better on the PC version. Second, the method of control is smoother on the PC version. And lastly, the number of players in online matches is higher on the PC version. So, in this case, the console version could be said to be "dumbed down" for that console. You could also argue that the PC version did not get the most out of the PC platform as well so there might be an argument that the PC versioin was "dumbed down" due to the presence of a console version for ease of development.
Now, do not get me wrong. Consoles have come a long way from the Commodore and Atari days. Back then, those systems used one or two buttons and had a single analog joystick for control. Today, most consoles have multiple buttons and at least two digital joysticks and an analog keypad. Also, today consoles have better CPU's and GPU's compared to their predecessors. However, those improvements still do not meet either the control capabilities nor CPU/GPU capacities of the latest PC. So, yes, consoles are not in any way superior. The only thing that IS the same....they are both computers.
Let's party like it is 1863!
I just used term 'hardcore' with apostrophe to include all people who think that having to run around in despair to find a particular NPC will make the game 'better' for whatever subjective irrelevant reason they have.
I just used term 'hardcore' with apostrophe to include all people who think that having to run around in despair to find a particular NPC will make the game 'better' for whatever subjective irrelevant reason they have.
Sorry, those of us with an IQ over 5 never had a problem finding NPCs. If it ever did take a little bit, I'd walk up to a guard, and ask him where the NPC was, and he'd emote point me in the right direction.
Call BS on the term all you want. Just because someone calls something one dislikes a pejorative term for a perceived over-simplification, doesn't mean it isn't accurate.
That's what the term means. In the verb phrase, is means to make or become less intellectual, simpler, or less sophisticated; a simplification.
It's a completely accurate and real term when discussing a whole host of mmorpg's from the perspective of one that finds a simpleton game less appealing then a more complex, some might say mature, challenging game. A more challenging game might be EVE or Ryzom in it's day. A simpler game to me that is dumbed-down from that higher level of player-centricity, challenge, immersion, suspense, unpredictability, could be CoH, Champions Online, WAR, STO; games that are simplistic, hold your hand with game-play tools and entitlements that make the game easy to engage in without slight challenge or consequences for actions, virtual loss.
So, no. It's not about harcore at all to me, but about a little more complexity that requires more intelligence to play. I like the stimulus of games that aren't dumbed down for those that like simpler affairs or engagements. That's my example.
Striving for Silver Stars since Gold is so effeminate.
Before game communities were flooded with people who seem to need BIG YELLOW EXCLAMATION POINTS, we didn't "run around in despair." We read the quest text. We thought. We even made maps. Thinking and solving problems was part of the fun, because thoughtful people enjoy thinking. It's not something they find tedious or that induces despair.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I just used term 'hardcore' with apostrophe to include all people who think that having to run around in despair to find a particular NPC will make the game 'better' for whatever subjective irrelevant reason they have.
Some people enjoy the challenge. Heck, why stop at labeling quest NPCs? Why not just log into the game max leveled, max skilled, and max geared? Why put all that other irrelevant subjective bull crap in the game? Its just a waste.
I suppose to me its a philosophy. If a game thinks it has to hold your hand every step of the way I will get bored very easily. I need stimulation and challenge. If a game doesn't even expect me to be able to find my quest turn-in I don't think that game is going to offer me much.
Before the game community was flooded with people who think they are better than others just because of game they play and gameplay they prefer...
Call BS on the term all you want. Just because someone calls something one dislikes a pejorative term for a perceived over-simplification, doesn't mean it isn't accurate.
That's what the term means. In the verb phrase, is means to make or become less intellectual, simpler, or less sophisticated; a simplification.
It's a completely accurate and real term when discussing a whole host of mmorpg's from the perspective of one that finds a simpleton game less appealing then a more complex, some might say mature, challenging game. A more challenging game might be EVE or Ryzom in it's day. A simpler game to me that is dumbed-down from that higher level of player-centricity, challenge, immersion, suspense, unpredictability, could be CoH, Champions Online, WAR, STO; games that are simplistic, hold your hand with game-play tools and entitlements that make the game easy to engage in without slight challenge or consequences for actions, virtual loss.
So, no. It's not about harcore at all to me, but about a little more complexity that requires more intelligence to play. I like the stimulus of games that aren't dumbed down for those that like simpler affairs or engagements. That's my example.
What the industry calls it is streamlining a product. A lot of the systems in mass effect 2 were changed from how they were in part one. Would you call it dumbing down? Or is it a more representative term to call it as the industry does? Streamlined, is much a better term IMO. As it describes exactly what they have done.
Is micro management actually "smarter"? Or is it archaic? I guess it really depends on the use and the product you're talking about. Lets look at WOW, was it a dumbed down MMO or was it a MMO that was streamlined to cut down on micro management and tedious game-play mechanics?
I'd bet on the latter, as with most Blizzard products they have always tried to improve on their products by making them more user friendly. That's what most people call dumbed down, when all it is is trying to make something more user friendly. It helps one have more fun rather than deal with tedious boring mechanics that detract from the overall experience.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think you miss understand see 'dumbed down" means a game thats easier, not as fresh or exciting and is shorter/noob friendlier then the previous title, Final Fantasy XIII is a very very good example of this. Final Fantasy XII although a different combat system then FFX and all the previous was loaded with content and had hours of gameplay and alot of grinding/thinking was needed or game over, it was only hated because it wasn't as easy as the previous titles.
But yeah what your saying dumbed down means a game that was ported from its original platform to another, this isnt what the phrase means it means a game that has become easier, shorter, more noob friendly of the title before it, "Lost its touch" can also be used. Again Final Fantasy XIII is a prime example. Spamming auto attack is great!
I think you miss understand see 'dumbed down" means a game thats easier, not as fresh or exciting and is shorter/noob friendlier then the previous title, Final Fantasy XIII is a very very good example of this. Final Fantasy XII although a different combat system then FFX and all the previous was loaded with content and had hours of gameplay and alot of grinding/thinking was needed or game over, it was only hated because it wasn't as easy as the previous titles.
But yeah what your saying dumbed down means a game that was ported from its original platform to another, this isnt what the phrase means it means a game that has become easier, shorter, more noob friendly of the title before it, "Lost its touch" can also be used. Again Final Fantasy XIII is a prime example. Spamming auto attack is great!
With final fantasy I wouldn't call that dumbing down a product. I call that changing the focus of a product. The game-play itself is still very much FF, the problem is they took away the world. That's doesn't make the game easier, it makes the game a different game.
I'm hard pressed to even call it an RPG simply because all it is now is a story and some combat.
That's not what is usually referred to as dumbing down a product, that's gutting one and making it something else.
Dumbing down or as I prefer to say streamlining a product means to adjust how systems work to cut down on micro management and tedious mechanics. Like I pointed out above with Mass Effect 2. Which is still very much the same game, it is just easier to manage everything. Does that mean it was smarter before, or required a higher degree of intelligence? No.
It means the developers found their design archaic, and thought they could make it better.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Call BS on the term all you want. Just because someone calls something one dislikes a pejorative term for a perceived over-simplification, doesn't mean it isn't accurate.
That's what the term means. In the verb phrase, is means to make or become less intellectual, simpler, or less sophisticated; a simplification.
It's a completely accurate and real term when discussing a whole host of mmorpg's from the perspective of one that finds a simpleton game less appealing then a more complex, some might say mature, challenging game. A more challenging game might be EVE or Ryzom in it's day. A simpler game to me that is dumbed-down from that higher level of player-centricity, challenge, immersion, suspense, unpredictability, could be CoH, Champions Online, WAR, STO; games that are simplistic, hold your hand with game-play tools and entitlements that make the game easy to engage in without slight challenge or consequences for actions, virtual loss.
So, no. It's not about harcore at all to me, but about a little more complexity that requires more intelligence to play. I like the stimulus of games that aren't dumbed down for those that like simpler affairs or engagements. That's my example.
What the industry calls it is streamlining a product. A lot of the systems in mass effect 2 were changed from how they were in part one. Would you call it dumbing down? Or is it a more representative term to call it as the industry does? Streamlined, is much a better term IMO. As it describes exactly what they have done.
Is micro management actually "smarter"? Or is it archaic? I guess it really depends on the use and the product you're talking about. Lets look at WOW, was it a dumbed down MMO or was it a MMO that was streamlined to cut down on micro management and tedious game-play mechanics?
I'd bet on the latter, as with most Blizzard products they have always tried to improve on their products by making them more user friendly. That's what most people call dumbed down, when all it is is trying to make something more user friendly. It helps one have more fun rather than deal with tedious boring mechanics that detract from the overall experience.
The games I mentioned that you might consider "streamlined" were made so user friendly, they hardly have users to boast about; go figure.
Striving for Silver Stars since Gold is so effeminate.