The games I mentioned that you might consider "streamlined" were made so user friendly, they hardly have users to boast about; go figure.
Wow is arguably one of the most "dumbed down" MMO designs in existence. Yet it has the highest subscription rate as well as the highest retention. It's safe to assume streamlining your design isn't as important as polishing your product and adding enough content to keep your players happy.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Just because they have improved the grafics of the ES series in Morrowwind and Oblivion does not mean they are not dumbed down from the earlier games. A pretty game does not mean that it is not dumbed down.
I liked not having the giant question marks in an MMO, I like exploration and these kill exploration and immersion. It's why it's so hard to get "into character" in a lot of newer MMOS. Back in the day people would actually RP, even on non RP worlds.
The games I mentioned that you might consider "streamlined" were made so user friendly, they hardly have users to boast about; go figure.
Wow is arguably one of the most "dumbed down" MMO designs in existence. Yet it has the highest subscription rate as well as the highest retention. It's safe to assume streamlining your design isn't as important as polishing your product and adding enough content to keep your players happy.
Again, I didnt mention WoW b/c I hardly think it to be the "most" dumbed-down mmorpg available, but the games that I mentioned were, and thus, there-in lies the link. What to I know though. WoW might be, but with its huge offering of breadth and depth that transcends the simple, I never thought of it as a simpleton game.
Striving for Silver Stars since Gold is so effeminate.
Just because they have improved the grafics of the ES series in Morrowwind and Oblivion does not mean they are not dumbed down from the earlier games. A pretty game does not mean that it is not dumbed down. I liked not having the giant question marks in an MMO, I like exploration and these kill exploration and immersion. It's why it's so hard to get "into character" in a lot of newer MMOS. Back in the day people would actually RP, even on non RP worlds.
I hate when Morrowind and Oblivion are used in comparison to Daggerfall, Arena and other older TES games.
Yes they are very different than the older games, because they were created for a completely different generation of gamers, and made in tune with their desired games. Compared to the other games these players were accustomed to they were both very deep and complex.
Games in large part are made for the 15-20 year old demographic. Certain genres do cater to older players, yet most blockbusters are aimed at the target gaming ages listed above.
It's no different than music or whatever other popular media aimed at teens, their tastes differ from the older generations, changes are made to satisfy those differences. I'm sure your parents felt your music was dumbed down from theirs, I'm sure you feel your children listen to dumbed down music as well if you have them.
I know damn well I feel the music on the radio today is "dumbed down". Even though in reality it isn't, it's just made for someone else.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The games I mentioned that you might consider "streamlined" were made so user friendly, they hardly have users to boast about; go figure.
Wow is arguably one of the most "dumbed down" MMO designs in existence. Yet it has the highest subscription rate as well as the highest retention. It's safe to assume streamlining your design isn't as important as polishing your product and adding enough content to keep your players happy.
Again, I didnt mention WoW b/c I hardly think it to be the "most" dumbed-down mmorpg available, but the games that I mentioned were, and thus, there-in lies the link. What to I know though. WoW might be, but with its huge offering of breadth and depth that transcends the simple, I never thought of it as a simpleton game.
Did they fail because they were "dumbed down", or did they fail because they were horrible games on release? Minus COH of course, as I've always heard it did well in it's time. I was still playing galaxies back then, so I really don't know.
When I referred to WOW as "dumbed down" I was comparing it to EQ, SWG or UO which most do when they make such a claim. Also the changes made to these games after WOW was referred to as "dumbing them down, for the WOW audience". SO tell me, is WOW viewed as a "dumbed down" MMO or not?
I don't think it is "dumbed down", which is why I use quotations when using the word. I think it was a streamlined version of older systems, that the developers felt were archaic and unneeded. Obviously players felt the same, As they're all still mostly playing WOW.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The term "dumbed down" generally refers to ports of PC to console or vis versa where the console version has to be simplified in order to work on the console. This means that if it is developed first on the console it is developed for that platform and therefore does not (always) take advantage of the assests available on the PC. Take a game like Modern Warfare 2. In many ways it looks very similar on both platforms. In some ways it plays the same. However, when you look closer, you see several things. First, the graphics can be better on the PC version.
And in what way does prettier graphics make a game more "intelligent?" I can make a chess set by printing an 8X8 grid on paper with an inkjet printer and using different bottle caps or army men as the pieces. I could also buy a high end chess set with a marble board and highly sculpted pieces cast in gold and silver. Is the high end board more "intelligent" than my ghetto fabulous home made set?
No. No it isn't. It's the same damn game. It plays the same. it demands the same level strategic skill. There is nothing "dumbed down" about it.
Second, the method of control is smoother on the PC version.
Debatable. I'm of the school that it's the player and not the controller. Especially in a game like MW2 where you get an accuracy penalty for moving around too much while firing.
And lastly, the number of players in online matches is higher on the PC version.
Have you played MAG yet? Planetside during it's launch? Let me clue you on something. The more players you get on a map, the less your kill/death ratio actually means. You are more likely to be killed out of sheer dumb luck than any skill on your assailant's part. This cuts the other direction as well. Anything beyone 32 players on a map and it's just a great big cluster fuck.
So, in this case, the console version could be said to be "dumbed down" for that console. You could also argue that the PC version did not get the most out of the PC platform as well so there might be an argument that the PC versioin was "dumbed down" due to the presence of a console version for ease of development.
But if the game wasn't made completely with the PC in mind and nothing has been taken away, then you can't lay claim to anything being "dumbed down." It's only when something has been removed that was integral to the game mechanics that you can even make this claim.
Now, do not get me wrong. Consoles have come a long way from the Commodore and Atari days. Back then, those systems used one or two buttons and had a single analog joystick for control. Today, most consoles have multiple buttons and at least two digital joysticks and an analog keypad. Also, today consoles have better CPU's and GPU's compared to their predecessors. However, those improvements still do not meet either the control capabilities nor CPU/GPU capacities of the latest PC. So, yes, consoles are not in any way superior. The only thing that IS the same....they are both computers.
This isn't acutally a PC vs. Consoles thread. This is an elitist bullshit vs. reality thread.
"Dumbed down" is one of the vague, deragutory terms that is thrown about when no real criticism can be made. It's also a term that perpetuates the misconception that unnecassary complexity and high barriers to entry make a game more intelligent. Often times, added complexity just conceals the fact that a game is really, really broken on a fundamental level.
This isn't acutally a PC vs. Consoles thread. This is an elitist bullshit vs. reality thread. "Dumbed down" is one of the vague, deragutory terms that is thrown about when no real criticism can be made. It's also a term that perpetuates the misconception that unnecassary complexity and high barriers to entry make a game more intelligent. Often times, added complexity just conceals the fact that a game is really, really broken on a fundamental level.
I'm not sure I understand your point at all.
If you asked, say, the average WoW player to give Hello Kitty Online a try, most would say there isn't enough complexity, difficulty or substance to Hello Kitty to hold their attention. Would that mean the WoW players are being elitist? Or would that mean there are genuine differences between those two games where one clearly requires more thought than the other, and poses more challenges? Is WoW "really, really broken on a fundamental level" because it is harder than Hello Kitty? And if the answer is no, why would a game like original Everquest be broken on a fundamental level because it is harder than WoW?
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
If you asked, say, the average WoW player to give Hello Kitty Online a try, most would say there isn't enough complexity, difficulty or substance to Hello Kitty to hold their attention. Would that mean the WoW players are being elitist? Or would that mean there are genuine differences between those two games where one clearly requires more thought than the other, and poses more challenges? Is WoW "really, really broken on a fundamental level" because it is harder than Hello Kitty? And if the answer is no, why would a game like original Everquest be broken on a fundamental level because it is harder than WoW?
I haven't played Hello Kitty Online so I'm not in any position to comment about which requires more thought. From what I know of the two games, it's kind of like comparing Sinistar to Club Penguin. Or a bowling pin to a straight razor.
I have played both EQ and WoW however. For the record, EQ was not harder than WoW. It was simply more tedious. The core of both games was level/gear grinding and min/maxing. If you have played any RPG in oh.... say... the last 20 years, you will know exactly what to do in either game. Any moron can compare numbers an determine which one is bigger. Any jack ass can read a class description and get an idea of where to assign stat and skill points. A drooling imbecile can spam heal or potion spells when the red health bar gets too low. And any chimp with downs syndrome and one finger can click on mob after mob after mob until the little yellow bar fills up. I'm pretty sure you could train a semi-comatose vegitable to pull off the sequences needed to kill orange mobs repeatedly.
Endless oceans of NPCs spouting "flavor text," endless down time through traveling, disneyland spawn queing, or healing and annoying corpse runs don't require intelligence to put up with. In fact, I'd have to argue that only masochists, self diagnosed asperger "sufferers" or total idiots would put up with such tedious chores and dare to declare them "fun."
dumbed down: Usually used by people who are not challenged by something. More times then not, its when a gamer is migrating from one game to another. Almost always, its a term used by noobs. New gamers who havnt yet figured out that nearly all games that fit into specific genre follow the same formula (whether its UI, quests, AI etc.). This new formula the noob has previously figured out from the game he just migrated from. Therefore, he/she thinks the game has been "dumbed down" because they no longer feel the challenge they felt when they first entered the particular gaming genre. Like it or not, games borrow from one another. You become better at these game aspects. Nothing is being "dumbed down", your just too dumb to realize you're becoming better at them.
Used by noobs? Lol...
Do you really believe that games that let you solo through the whole thing, that show you where to go at all times, that explain everything to you and are constantly in your face (maybe popup messages like some horrible MMORPGs). Do you think that isn't dumbed down?
If you don't realize they are dumbed down, you just haven't played a non-dumbed down MMORPG (try pre-WoW, the era of non-dumbed down games).
Well, your argument would have made some sense, if games were always staying at the same level of skill, or becoming more challenging. The mere fact that games are growing larger and larger just symbolizes the dumbing down factor. To say that a current MMORPG is not dumbed down compared to one 10 years ago is to deny reality.
I sure wish there were more people like you and dev's would listen when they make MMO's.
I played WoW since Beta (Quit 3 weeks ago) and have no urge at all to return. WoW is being dumbed down with every patch and forums whining you see...Simple.
To me it has been turned into an automated MMO pretty much and it is sad.
When WoW was released you had to do 95% of the thinking to get somewhere. Today, the game plays itself and it only requires maybe 5% of your input to make things happen...again..sad.
I will not be chasing any MMOs that resemble WoW or play like it. I am waiting for an MMO that will bring back the challenge and excitement. I want my heart to jump and my breath to gasp when I make a mistake or die. I want to have to watch my back every time I leave town.
I want to worry if I can make it to my house out in the wild or another town with a rare loot I just discovered, hoping I dont get killed and my corpse robbed of my belongings. Thats what I WANT!
Dev's....You need to start making MMOs where excitement and immersion matters and not just your wallets. You dont realize the huge playerbase you have that is awaiting such an endeavor. Where we can go back to the MMO roots and get pulled in.
In terms of general gaming I would refer to dumped down as when a challenge is taken out of the game and that same thing that once was challenging is made very easy, dumped down also means to me eliminating the options I had for less options.
If you asked, say, the average WoW player to give Hello Kitty Online a try, most would say there isn't enough complexity, difficulty or substance to Hello Kitty to hold their attention. Would that mean the WoW players are being elitist? Or would that mean there are genuine differences between those two games where one clearly requires more thought than the other, and poses more challenges? Is WoW "really, really broken on a fundamental level" because it is harder than Hello Kitty? And if the answer is no, why would a game like original Everquest be broken on a fundamental level because it is harder than WoW?
I haven't played Hello Kitty Online so I'm not in any position to comment about which requires more thought. From what I know of the two games, it's kind of like comparing Sinistar to Club Penguin. Or a bowling pin to a straight razor.
I think the idea here is comparing WOW (a relatively simple game) to Hello Kitty Online (an even simpler game), and would WOW players be Elitists by assuming Hello Kitty Online is too easy. WOW and Hello Kitty Online are both MMOs, whereas a bowling pin and a razor are not both bowling pins, so.....
I have played both EQ and WoW however. For the record, EQ was not harder than WoW. It was simply more tedious. The core of both games was level/gear grinding and min/maxing. If you have played any RPG in oh.... say... the last 20 years, you will know exactly what to do in either game. Any moron can compare numbers an determine which one is bigger. Any jack ass can read a class description and get an idea of where to assign stat and skill points. A drooling imbecile can spam heal or potion spells when the red health bar gets too low. And any chimp with downs syndrome and one finger can click on mob after mob after mob until the little yellow bar fills up. I'm pretty sure you could train a semi-comatose vegitable to pull off the sequences needed to kill orange mobs repeatedly.
Endless oceans of NPCs spouting "flavor text," endless down time through traveling, disneyland spawn queing, or healing and annoying corpse runs don't require intelligence to put up with. In fact, I'd have to argue that only masochists, self diagnosed asperger "sufferers" or total idiots would put up with such tedious chores and dare to declare them "fun."
LOL! Feel better now?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
If you want a perfect example of dumbed down then look at supreme commander and supreme commander 2. The comparison is even worse when you throw in the stand alone expansion for SupCom 1: Forged Alliance.
SupCom2 just pales into comparison to the depth that SupCom1 offered in almost all areas. SupCom2's goal was to make it much more console friendly and streamlined, but something is wrong when streamlining means gutting core features that the fanbase enjoyed. I think the only pro I can really think of for SupCom2 over SupCom1 is it runs better, and that's just because they simplified the graphics in certain areas to perform better on 360.
I never really got into Supreme Commander. It was mostly due to the time commitment thing. After my first four hour online match I decided to just let the game collect dust. I still occasionally play TA Spring though. I likewise haven't played Supreme Commander 2 yet. Been to busy with the R.U.S.E. beta.
But what you're talking about IS one of the few situations where the term actually makes sense. But, and this is key, only if the game hasn't been gutted and turned into something completely different. From what I've heard, SupCom 2 has the same kind of emphasis as the first game, so you're probably right to use the term.
I made this thread primarily to point out how over used and abused this term is. It's one thing when you can specifically point out how something has been neutered, but totally different when you just throw out "dumbed down" and leave it at that.
If you have played any RPG in oh.... say... the last 20 years, you will know exactly what to do in either game. Any moron can compare numbers an determine which one is bigger. Any jack ass can read a class description and get an idea of where to assign stat and skill points. A drooling imbecile can spam heal or potion spells when the red health bar gets too low. And any chimp with downs syndrome and one finger can click on mob after mob after mob until the little yellow bar fills up. I'm pretty sure you could train a semi-comatose vegitable to pull off the sequences needed to kill orange mobs repeatedly. Endless oceans of NPCs spouting "flavor text," endless down time through traveling, disneyland spawn queing, or healing and annoying corpse runs don't require intelligence to put up with. In fact, I'd have to argue that only masochists, self diagnosed asperger "sufferers" or total idiots would put up with such tedious chores and dare to declare them "fun."
I am sorry you are angry. Here is a Hello Kitty to hold until the rage passes. If you cannot find her, I will put a yellow exclamation point over her head and mark her on your gps map.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
If you have played any RPG in oh.... say... the last 20 years, you will know exactly what to do in either game. Any moron can compare numbers an determine which one is bigger. Any jack ass can read a class description and get an idea of where to assign stat and skill points. A drooling imbecile can spam heal or potion spells when the red health bar gets too low. And any chimp with downs syndrome and one finger can click on mob after mob after mob until the little yellow bar fills up. I'm pretty sure you could train a semi-comatose vegitable to pull off the sequences needed to kill orange mobs repeatedly. Endless oceans of NPCs spouting "flavor text," endless down time through traveling, disneyland spawn queing, or healing and annoying corpse runs don't require intelligence to put up with. In fact, I'd have to argue that only masochists, self diagnosed asperger "sufferers" or total idiots would put up with such tedious chores and dare to declare them "fun."
I am sorry you are angry. Here is a Hello Kitty to hold until the rage passes. If you cannot find her, I will put a yellow exclamation point over her head and mark her on your gps map.
Actually I was just having fun with hyperbole. I'll admit that it came off harsh, but it was sure fun to write.
But yeah.... If you realize that 2 > 1 and that a fighter needs to be strong while a ranger needs to be agile then you're well prepared to play every RPG ever made. It isn't rocket surgery.
the game is extreamly easy to play, an example would be comparing a MUD based game or DnD tabletop to that of say pong.
pong being the dumbed down version.
todays standards any game that a vast majority of gamers feels is lacking in skill or difficalty is tagged as dumbed down. more so if its playable with next to no difficatly by younger children.
doesnt mean the game isnt fun, just a vast majorty feel is not very hard or lacking it all together.
Let me give you an example of dumbed down in the mother of all MMOs.
WOW - Starting area - dwarfs and gnomes. Trolls that attacked you before (red) now stand and pick their nose while you kill another troll from 1 feet away. That has been changed cause before you were attacked by these exact same trolls. Now... its just an example... but it also goes tho show how stupid things can look when you stand surrounded by same type of mobs that are supposed to have some sort awareness but then are changed into total crap.
This is exactly what I have been critisiing with most of other MMOs.... Now Wow has done the exact same thing... Its the lazy and cheap way to dumb down things... But dumbed down never the less.
Baldur's Gate II >>> Dragon Age: Origine Thats the essence of "dumb down". Enough said... edit: since this is an MMO forum I'll go with this then: EQ / FFXI / DAoC >>> WoW / Aion / WAR Do you get what dounb down means now?
No because your comparisons make no specific arguments as to WHY side A is better than side B.
Yes, I've played most of those games. No I don't see one hell of a lot of difference. Details or your just talking out of your nethers.
It's funny because I can see eaxactly the point he is making.To explain one of the pairings I'll take EQ to WoW.
EQ >>> WoW
--- A challenge to level >>> Easy to level (and subsequently unrewarding)
--- Group oriented >>> Solo oriented (and subsequently non-existant community)
--- Primarily non-instanced dungeons >>> Primarily instanced dungeons (again damages community and removes any variation in play experience, everything becomes a repetitive grind as it removes player interaction from the mix)
--- Open PvP >>> Instanced PvP (again community is damaged and any variables in play experience are negated)
Ironically the one major thing that has stayed consistent between these two games is the obsession with raiding as the primary valid end-game activity. Even there people will claim it has been dumbed down as it is much easier to raid in WoW than in EQ, though IMO raiding is a flawed system in the first place as more players and more time needed does not make anything more challenging.
You can also look at DAOC's 3 faction RvR against WAR's 2 faction RvR. Most people will agree that the former allowed for the players to balance themselves whilst the latter is the most unbalanced system you can have.
IMO the majority of the 'dumbing down' occurs for three reasons:
--- To appeal to more casual players as things become easier or less time consuming.
--- To reduce the potential for players to affect the experience of other players (i.e. to prevent griefing) though this most commonly cuts out massive swathes of features that encourage community interaction and creates a very sterile play experience as no one feels like they are having any genuine effect on anything in the world.
--- To cut back on costs.
I think the majority of the cause is actually the second point. The devs don't like their players to be frustrated by other players, but in the attempt to solve this issue they remove any feeling of a living virtual world. Community interaction (or the recent lack thereof) is IMO the biggest example of 'dumbing down' in modern MMOs.
Another good example of dumbing down is what happend to AoC when in the middle of development, they decided to make the game xbox360 compatible. Changed the whole combat dynamic to be simpler and controller friendly.
It's funny because I can see eaxactly the point he is making.To explain one of the pairings I'll take EQ to WoW. EQ >>> WoW --- A challenge to level >>> Easy to level (and subsequently unrewarding) --- Group oriented >>> Solo oriented (and subsequently non-existant community) --- Primarily non-instanced dungeons >>> Primarily instanced dungeons (again damages community and removes any variation in play experience, everything becomes a repetitive grind as it removes player interaction from the mix) --- Open PvP >>> Instanced PvP (again community is damaged and any variables in play experience are negated)
And you are mostly wrong in these accoutns.
EQ hard to level? Find a green, kill. Wait for it to respawn. Repeat. Not very tough, and nothing is dumbed down from this. You can still do this in any game, its not any dumber.
Group oriented? Eh, not sure on this one. Community. Not really a dumb/not dumb issue.
Instanced. Wrong. Instancing just gives the developer more control over what you encounter. They could just as easily force all your instances to be against reds, and the game would be much harder. But even then, the in the open world games, you could fall back to killing greens. So in principle, the open world games are easier. Dumbed down. In practice its about even.
PvP don't really do it much. But again community is a non issue.
The games I mentioned that you might consider "streamlined" were made so user friendly, they hardly have users to boast about; go figure.
Wow is arguably one of the most "dumbed down" MMO designs in existence. Yet it has the highest subscription rate as well as the highest retention. It's safe to assume streamlining your design isn't as important as polishing your product and adding enough content to keep your players happy.
Again, I didnt mention WoW b/c I hardly think it to be the "most" dumbed-down mmorpg available, but the games that I mentioned were, and thus, there-in lies the link. What to I know though. WoW might be, but with its huge offering of breadth and depth that transcends the simple, I never thought of it as a simpleton game.
Did they fail because they were "dumbed down", or did they fail because they were horrible games on release?
They failed b/c they were dumbed-down to appeal to a supposed base that didn't exist of players that Cryptic thought would like a simple action game. Thats about as dumbed-down as you can get, so good example, and boy were they wrong.
They failed b/c they were dumbed-down to appeal to a supposed base that didn't exist of players that Cryptic thought would like a simple action game. Thats about as dumbed-down as you can get, so good example, and boy were they wrong.
TBH I think this is a prime example of what the OP is referring to. The wrong usage of the phrase.
You're using it in a manner in which a level of superiority is being expressed. Which reads to me as the intelligent wouldn't play it. As if intelligence has anything to do with which game a person plays.
That would be like me saying I won't play EQ because I'm not dumb enough to subject myself to it's harsh penalties. Implying those who are playing are of lesser intelligence than I. Which would be an idiotic statement on my part.
There are times the phrase makes sense, most of the time it's used when it doesn't. DA not being like BG so it must be "dumbed down". is a prime example of that. We're talking about products geared for someone else, that doesn't mean they were dumbed down, because those games are made for morons. It means they're for a different generation or demographic.
This use of the word is nothing but pure elitism IMO. Self gratification and nothing more.
A good example in which to use the phrase would be SWG. They actually stated they felt their game was to difficult and required to much research. That's a prime example of dumbing down a product, it still shouldn't give anyone some misguided feeling of superiority though. The only moron in such a situation is the spokesperson making such claims, not the players they intend on targeting.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
They failed b/c they were dumbed-down to appeal to a supposed base that didn't exist of players that Cryptic thought would like a simple action game. Thats about as dumbed-down as you can get, so good example, and boy were they wrong.
TBH I think this is a prime example of what the OP is referring to.
Bah. Its all opinions, and anyone can spin anything they want outside the context of a definition, such as it depends on what the definition of 'is' is.
The OP is calling BS on the usage of the word, and I say its fitting for games in their entirety,such as STO and Champions Online. And fitting is game-play elements associated with WoW, but I dont know if I'd go out on a limb and say the entire product is dumbed down.
Comments
The games I mentioned that you might consider "streamlined" were made so user friendly, they hardly have users to boast about; go figure.
Wow is arguably one of the most "dumbed down" MMO designs in existence. Yet it has the highest subscription rate as well as the highest retention. It's safe to assume streamlining your design isn't as important as polishing your product and adding enough content to keep your players happy.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Just because they have improved the grafics of the ES series in Morrowwind and Oblivion does not mean they are not dumbed down from the earlier games. A pretty game does not mean that it is not dumbed down.
I liked not having the giant question marks in an MMO, I like exploration and these kill exploration and immersion. It's why it's so hard to get "into character" in a lot of newer MMOS. Back in the day people would actually RP, even on non RP worlds.
The games I mentioned that you might consider "streamlined" were made so user friendly, they hardly have users to boast about; go figure.
Wow is arguably one of the most "dumbed down" MMO designs in existence. Yet it has the highest subscription rate as well as the highest retention. It's safe to assume streamlining your design isn't as important as polishing your product and adding enough content to keep your players happy.
Again, I didnt mention WoW b/c I hardly think it to be the "most" dumbed-down mmorpg available, but the games that I mentioned were, and thus, there-in lies the link. What to I know though. WoW might be, but with its huge offering of breadth and depth that transcends the simple, I never thought of it as a simpleton game.
Striving for Silver Stars since Gold is so effeminate.
I hate when Morrowind and Oblivion are used in comparison to Daggerfall, Arena and other older TES games.
Yes they are very different than the older games, because they were created for a completely different generation of gamers, and made in tune with their desired games. Compared to the other games these players were accustomed to they were both very deep and complex.
Games in large part are made for the 15-20 year old demographic. Certain genres do cater to older players, yet most blockbusters are aimed at the target gaming ages listed above.
It's no different than music or whatever other popular media aimed at teens, their tastes differ from the older generations, changes are made to satisfy those differences. I'm sure your parents felt your music was dumbed down from theirs, I'm sure you feel your children listen to dumbed down music as well if you have them.
I know damn well I feel the music on the radio today is "dumbed down". Even though in reality it isn't, it's just made for someone else.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The games I mentioned that you might consider "streamlined" were made so user friendly, they hardly have users to boast about; go figure.
Wow is arguably one of the most "dumbed down" MMO designs in existence. Yet it has the highest subscription rate as well as the highest retention. It's safe to assume streamlining your design isn't as important as polishing your product and adding enough content to keep your players happy.
Again, I didnt mention WoW b/c I hardly think it to be the "most" dumbed-down mmorpg available, but the games that I mentioned were, and thus, there-in lies the link. What to I know though. WoW might be, but with its huge offering of breadth and depth that transcends the simple, I never thought of it as a simpleton game.
Did they fail because they were "dumbed down", or did they fail because they were horrible games on release? Minus COH of course, as I've always heard it did well in it's time. I was still playing galaxies back then, so I really don't know.
When I referred to WOW as "dumbed down" I was comparing it to EQ, SWG or UO which most do when they make such a claim. Also the changes made to these games after WOW was referred to as "dumbing them down, for the WOW audience". SO tell me, is WOW viewed as a "dumbed down" MMO or not?
I don't think it is "dumbed down", which is why I use quotations when using the word. I think it was a streamlined version of older systems, that the developers felt were archaic and unneeded. Obviously players felt the same, As they're all still mostly playing WOW.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The term "dumbed down" generally refers to ports of PC to console or vis versa where the console version has to be simplified in order to work on the console. This means that if it is developed first on the console it is developed for that platform and therefore does not (always) take advantage of the assests available on the PC. Take a game like Modern Warfare 2. In many ways it looks very similar on both platforms. In some ways it plays the same. However, when you look closer, you see several things. First, the graphics can be better on the PC version.
And in what way does prettier graphics make a game more "intelligent?" I can make a chess set by printing an 8X8 grid on paper with an inkjet printer and using different bottle caps or army men as the pieces. I could also buy a high end chess set with a marble board and highly sculpted pieces cast in gold and silver. Is the high end board more "intelligent" than my ghetto fabulous home made set?
No. No it isn't. It's the same damn game. It plays the same. it demands the same level strategic skill. There is nothing "dumbed down" about it.
Second, the method of control is smoother on the PC version.
Debatable. I'm of the school that it's the player and not the controller. Especially in a game like MW2 where you get an accuracy penalty for moving around too much while firing.
And lastly, the number of players in online matches is higher on the PC version.
Have you played MAG yet? Planetside during it's launch? Let me clue you on something. The more players you get on a map, the less your kill/death ratio actually means. You are more likely to be killed out of sheer dumb luck than any skill on your assailant's part. This cuts the other direction as well. Anything beyone 32 players on a map and it's just a great big cluster fuck.
So, in this case, the console version could be said to be "dumbed down" for that console. You could also argue that the PC version did not get the most out of the PC platform as well so there might be an argument that the PC versioin was "dumbed down" due to the presence of a console version for ease of development.
But if the game wasn't made completely with the PC in mind and nothing has been taken away, then you can't lay claim to anything being "dumbed down." It's only when something has been removed that was integral to the game mechanics that you can even make this claim.
Now, do not get me wrong. Consoles have come a long way from the Commodore and Atari days. Back then, those systems used one or two buttons and had a single analog joystick for control. Today, most consoles have multiple buttons and at least two digital joysticks and an analog keypad. Also, today consoles have better CPU's and GPU's compared to their predecessors. However, those improvements still do not meet either the control capabilities nor CPU/GPU capacities of the latest PC. So, yes, consoles are not in any way superior. The only thing that IS the same....they are both computers.
This isn't acutally a PC vs. Consoles thread. This is an elitist bullshit vs. reality thread.
"Dumbed down" is one of the vague, deragutory terms that is thrown about when no real criticism can be made. It's also a term that perpetuates the misconception that unnecassary complexity and high barriers to entry make a game more intelligent. Often times, added complexity just conceals the fact that a game is really, really broken on a fundamental level.
I'm not sure I understand your point at all.
If you asked, say, the average WoW player to give Hello Kitty Online a try, most would say there isn't enough complexity, difficulty or substance to Hello Kitty to hold their attention. Would that mean the WoW players are being elitist? Or would that mean there are genuine differences between those two games where one clearly requires more thought than the other, and poses more challenges? Is WoW "really, really broken on a fundamental level" because it is harder than Hello Kitty? And if the answer is no, why would a game like original Everquest be broken on a fundamental level because it is harder than WoW?
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I'm not sure I understand your point at all.
If you asked, say, the average WoW player to give Hello Kitty Online a try, most would say there isn't enough complexity, difficulty or substance to Hello Kitty to hold their attention. Would that mean the WoW players are being elitist? Or would that mean there are genuine differences between those two games where one clearly requires more thought than the other, and poses more challenges? Is WoW "really, really broken on a fundamental level" because it is harder than Hello Kitty? And if the answer is no, why would a game like original Everquest be broken on a fundamental level because it is harder than WoW?
I haven't played Hello Kitty Online so I'm not in any position to comment about which requires more thought. From what I know of the two games, it's kind of like comparing Sinistar to Club Penguin. Or a bowling pin to a straight razor.
I have played both EQ and WoW however. For the record, EQ was not harder than WoW. It was simply more tedious. The core of both games was level/gear grinding and min/maxing. If you have played any RPG in oh.... say... the last 20 years, you will know exactly what to do in either game. Any moron can compare numbers an determine which one is bigger. Any jack ass can read a class description and get an idea of where to assign stat and skill points. A drooling imbecile can spam heal or potion spells when the red health bar gets too low. And any chimp with downs syndrome and one finger can click on mob after mob after mob until the little yellow bar fills up. I'm pretty sure you could train a semi-comatose vegitable to pull off the sequences needed to kill orange mobs repeatedly.
Endless oceans of NPCs spouting "flavor text," endless down time through traveling, disneyland spawn queing, or healing and annoying corpse runs don't require intelligence to put up with. In fact, I'd have to argue that only masochists, self diagnosed asperger "sufferers" or total idiots would put up with such tedious chores and dare to declare them "fun."
Used by noobs? Lol...
Do you really believe that games that let you solo through the whole thing, that show you where to go at all times, that explain everything to you and are constantly in your face (maybe popup messages like some horrible MMORPGs). Do you think that isn't dumbed down?
If you don't realize they are dumbed down, you just haven't played a non-dumbed down MMORPG (try pre-WoW, the era of non-dumbed down games).
Well, your argument would have made some sense, if games were always staying at the same level of skill, or becoming more challenging. The mere fact that games are growing larger and larger just symbolizes the dumbing down factor. To say that a current MMORPG is not dumbed down compared to one 10 years ago is to deny reality.
I sure wish there were more people like you and dev's would listen when they make MMO's.
I played WoW since Beta (Quit 3 weeks ago) and have no urge at all to return. WoW is being dumbed down with every patch and forums whining you see...Simple.
To me it has been turned into an automated MMO pretty much and it is sad.
When WoW was released you had to do 95% of the thinking to get somewhere. Today, the game plays itself and it only requires maybe 5% of your input to make things happen...again..sad.
I will not be chasing any MMOs that resemble WoW or play like it. I am waiting for an MMO that will bring back the challenge and excitement. I want my heart to jump and my breath to gasp when I make a mistake or die. I want to have to watch my back every time I leave town.
I want to worry if I can make it to my house out in the wild or another town with a rare loot I just discovered, hoping I dont get killed and my corpse robbed of my belongings. Thats what I WANT!
Dev's....You need to start making MMOs where excitement and immersion matters and not just your wallets. You dont realize the huge playerbase you have that is awaiting such an endeavor. Where we can go back to the MMO roots and get pulled in.
Thanks :-)
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."
In terms of general gaming I would refer to dumped down as when a challenge is taken out of the game and that same thing that once was challenging is made very easy, dumped down also means to me eliminating the options I had for less options.
I'm not sure I understand your point at all.
If you asked, say, the average WoW player to give Hello Kitty Online a try, most would say there isn't enough complexity, difficulty or substance to Hello Kitty to hold their attention. Would that mean the WoW players are being elitist? Or would that mean there are genuine differences between those two games where one clearly requires more thought than the other, and poses more challenges? Is WoW "really, really broken on a fundamental level" because it is harder than Hello Kitty? And if the answer is no, why would a game like original Everquest be broken on a fundamental level because it is harder than WoW?
I haven't played Hello Kitty Online so I'm not in any position to comment about which requires more thought. From what I know of the two games, it's kind of like comparing Sinistar to Club Penguin. Or a bowling pin to a straight razor.
I think the idea here is comparing WOW (a relatively simple game) to Hello Kitty Online (an even simpler game), and would WOW players be Elitists by assuming Hello Kitty Online is too easy. WOW and Hello Kitty Online are both MMOs, whereas a bowling pin and a razor are not both bowling pins, so.....
I have played both EQ and WoW however. For the record, EQ was not harder than WoW. It was simply more tedious. The core of both games was level/gear grinding and min/maxing. If you have played any RPG in oh.... say... the last 20 years, you will know exactly what to do in either game. Any moron can compare numbers an determine which one is bigger. Any jack ass can read a class description and get an idea of where to assign stat and skill points. A drooling imbecile can spam heal or potion spells when the red health bar gets too low. And any chimp with downs syndrome and one finger can click on mob after mob after mob until the little yellow bar fills up. I'm pretty sure you could train a semi-comatose vegitable to pull off the sequences needed to kill orange mobs repeatedly.
Endless oceans of NPCs spouting "flavor text," endless down time through traveling, disneyland spawn queing, or healing and annoying corpse runs don't require intelligence to put up with. In fact, I'd have to argue that only masochists, self diagnosed asperger "sufferers" or total idiots would put up with such tedious chores and dare to declare them "fun."
LOL! Feel better now?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
If you want a perfect example of dumbed down then look at supreme commander and supreme commander 2. The comparison is even worse when you throw in the stand alone expansion for SupCom 1: Forged Alliance.
SupCom2 just pales into comparison to the depth that SupCom1 offered in almost all areas. SupCom2's goal was to make it much more console friendly and streamlined, but something is wrong when streamlining means gutting core features that the fanbase enjoyed. I think the only pro I can really think of for SupCom2 over SupCom1 is it runs better, and that's just because they simplified the graphics in certain areas to perform better on 360.
I never really got into Supreme Commander. It was mostly due to the time commitment thing. After my first four hour online match I decided to just let the game collect dust. I still occasionally play TA Spring though. I likewise haven't played Supreme Commander 2 yet. Been to busy with the R.U.S.E. beta.
But what you're talking about IS one of the few situations where the term actually makes sense. But, and this is key, only if the game hasn't been gutted and turned into something completely different. From what I've heard, SupCom 2 has the same kind of emphasis as the first game, so you're probably right to use the term.
I made this thread primarily to point out how over used and abused this term is. It's one thing when you can specifically point out how something has been neutered, but totally different when you just throw out "dumbed down" and leave it at that.
I am sorry you are angry. Here is a Hello Kitty to hold until the rage passes. If you cannot find her, I will put a yellow exclamation point over her head and mark her on your gps map.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Baldur's Gate II >>> Dragon Age: Origine
Thats the essence of "dumb down". Enough said...
edit: since this is an MMO forum I'll go with this then:
EQ / FFXI / DAoC >>> WoW / Aion / WAR
Do you get what dounb down means now?
I am sorry you are angry. Here is a Hello Kitty to hold until the rage passes. If you cannot find her, I will put a yellow exclamation point over her head and mark her on your gps map.
Actually I was just having fun with hyperbole. I'll admit that it came off harsh, but it was sure fun to write.
But yeah.... If you realize that 2 > 1 and that a fighter needs to be strong while a ranger needs to be agile then you're well prepared to play every RPG ever made. It isn't rocket surgery.
Dumbed Down = Dictionary.com vs. Urbandictionary.com.
Just one example.
dumbed down typically means for a game is.
the game is extreamly easy to play, an example would be comparing a MUD based game or DnD tabletop to that of say pong.
pong being the dumbed down version.
todays standards any game that a vast majority of gamers feels is lacking in skill or difficalty is tagged as dumbed down. more so if its playable with next to no difficatly by younger children.
doesnt mean the game isnt fun, just a vast majorty feel is not very hard or lacking it all together.
Let me give you an example of dumbed down in the mother of all MMOs.
WOW - Starting area - dwarfs and gnomes. Trolls that attacked you before (red) now stand and pick their nose while you kill another troll from 1 feet away. That has been changed cause before you were attacked by these exact same trolls. Now... its just an example... but it also goes tho show how stupid things can look when you stand surrounded by same type of mobs that are supposed to have some sort awareness but then are changed into total crap.
This is exactly what I have been critisiing with most of other MMOs.... Now Wow has done the exact same thing... Its the lazy and cheap way to dumb down things... But dumbed down never the less.
No because your comparisons make no specific arguments as to WHY side A is better than side B.
Yes, I've played most of those games. No I don't see one hell of a lot of difference. Details or your just talking out of your nethers.
It's funny because I can see eaxactly the point he is making.To explain one of the pairings I'll take EQ to WoW.
EQ >>> WoW
--- A challenge to level >>> Easy to level (and subsequently unrewarding)
--- Group oriented >>> Solo oriented (and subsequently non-existant community)
--- Primarily non-instanced dungeons >>> Primarily instanced dungeons (again damages community and removes any variation in play experience, everything becomes a repetitive grind as it removes player interaction from the mix)
--- Open PvP >>> Instanced PvP (again community is damaged and any variables in play experience are negated)
Ironically the one major thing that has stayed consistent between these two games is the obsession with raiding as the primary valid end-game activity. Even there people will claim it has been dumbed down as it is much easier to raid in WoW than in EQ, though IMO raiding is a flawed system in the first place as more players and more time needed does not make anything more challenging.
You can also look at DAOC's 3 faction RvR against WAR's 2 faction RvR. Most people will agree that the former allowed for the players to balance themselves whilst the latter is the most unbalanced system you can have.
IMO the majority of the 'dumbing down' occurs for three reasons:
--- To appeal to more casual players as things become easier or less time consuming.
--- To reduce the potential for players to affect the experience of other players (i.e. to prevent griefing) though this most commonly cuts out massive swathes of features that encourage community interaction and creates a very sterile play experience as no one feels like they are having any genuine effect on anything in the world.
--- To cut back on costs.
I think the majority of the cause is actually the second point. The devs don't like their players to be frustrated by other players, but in the attempt to solve this issue they remove any feeling of a living virtual world. Community interaction (or the recent lack thereof) is IMO the biggest example of 'dumbing down' in modern MMOs.
Another good example of dumbing down is what happend to AoC when in the middle of development, they decided to make the game xbox360 compatible. Changed the whole combat dynamic to be simpler and controller friendly.
And you are mostly wrong in these accoutns.
EQ hard to level? Find a green, kill. Wait for it to respawn. Repeat. Not very tough, and nothing is dumbed down from this. You can still do this in any game, its not any dumber.
Group oriented? Eh, not sure on this one. Community. Not really a dumb/not dumb issue.
Instanced. Wrong. Instancing just gives the developer more control over what you encounter. They could just as easily force all your instances to be against reds, and the game would be much harder. But even then, the in the open world games, you could fall back to killing greens. So in principle, the open world games are easier. Dumbed down. In practice its about even.
PvP don't really do it much. But again community is a non issue.
The games I mentioned that you might consider "streamlined" were made so user friendly, they hardly have users to boast about; go figure.
Wow is arguably one of the most "dumbed down" MMO designs in existence. Yet it has the highest subscription rate as well as the highest retention. It's safe to assume streamlining your design isn't as important as polishing your product and adding enough content to keep your players happy.
Again, I didnt mention WoW b/c I hardly think it to be the "most" dumbed-down mmorpg available, but the games that I mentioned were, and thus, there-in lies the link. What to I know though. WoW might be, but with its huge offering of breadth and depth that transcends the simple, I never thought of it as a simpleton game.
Did they fail because they were "dumbed down", or did they fail because they were horrible games on release?
They failed b/c they were dumbed-down to appeal to a supposed base that didn't exist of players that Cryptic thought would like a simple action game. Thats about as dumbed-down as you can get, so good example, and boy were they wrong.
They failed b/c they were dumbed-down to appeal to a supposed base that didn't exist of players that Cryptic thought would like a simple action game. Thats about as dumbed-down as you can get, so good example, and boy were they wrong.
TBH I think this is a prime example of what the OP is referring to. The wrong usage of the phrase.
You're using it in a manner in which a level of superiority is being expressed. Which reads to me as the intelligent wouldn't play it. As if intelligence has anything to do with which game a person plays.
That would be like me saying I won't play EQ because I'm not dumb enough to subject myself to it's harsh penalties. Implying those who are playing are of lesser intelligence than I. Which would be an idiotic statement on my part.
There are times the phrase makes sense, most of the time it's used when it doesn't. DA not being like BG so it must be "dumbed down". is a prime example of that. We're talking about products geared for someone else, that doesn't mean they were dumbed down, because those games are made for morons. It means they're for a different generation or demographic.
This use of the word is nothing but pure elitism IMO. Self gratification and nothing more.
A good example in which to use the phrase would be SWG. They actually stated they felt their game was to difficult and required to much research. That's a prime example of dumbing down a product, it still shouldn't give anyone some misguided feeling of superiority though. The only moron in such a situation is the spokesperson making such claims, not the players they intend on targeting.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
They failed b/c they were dumbed-down to appeal to a supposed base that didn't exist of players that Cryptic thought would like a simple action game. Thats about as dumbed-down as you can get, so good example, and boy were they wrong.
TBH I think this is a prime example of what the OP is referring to.
Bah. Its all opinions, and anyone can spin anything they want outside the context of a definition, such as it depends on what the definition of 'is' is.
The OP is calling BS on the usage of the word, and I say its fitting for games in their entirety,such as STO and Champions Online. And fitting is game-play elements associated with WoW, but I dont know if I'd go out on a limb and say the entire product is dumbed down.