Hardcore games are those that require you to numb yourself against game-play stimulation and intelligent or mature game-play entertainment due to the lack of sheer brainpower or thought it takes to trudge through the mundane and repetitively boring game-play; PotBS, WAR, Champions Online, Star Trek Online.
Striving for Silver Stars since Gold is so effeminate.
I real "Hardcore" game would uppon the character's death, fire taser darts at you via the "XtremeTaseMod 3000 (Don't tase Me Bro Edition)". The game would also deduct money from your bank account for every 5 min that go by without a PVP kill, and then drunk dial your girl friend. Just how I see it anway. :-)
Nah,
A real Hardcore MMO would ship with Jumper Cable clamps that you would need to clamp to your junk while you play.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
A real Hardcore MMO would ship with Jumper Cable clamps that you would need to clamp to your junk while you play.
Indeed! We should also remember. You don't play "Hardcore" games, THEY play YOU.
Every MMORPG is AWESOME, until it's released! I don't want a game so much as I want a WORLD! -- o·pin·ion noun 1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty. 2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
Hardcore = stinging penalty for failure or sloppy gameplay
That about sums it up.
Wow, can't really improve on this definition. Simple, direct, and right to the point. (adding it to my sig)
What remains open for interpretation is what does a player consider a stinging penalty.
I've seen posters on this forum claim that even being able to die once is not desireable, as they are the "hero' and hero's supposedly never die.
Others find resurrecting with a minor penalty in gold or time acceptable, others want to see you lose your gear, and in the extreme, some folks think your character should be deleted from the game world.
Sometimes people equate harsh grinds as hardcore, but I don't, that's more of a test in perseverance IMO, but does nothing to contribute to the game being hardcore or not.
Personally I find the mere act of failing to be a very stinging penalty and anyother penalties seem artificial and unnecessary. I am going to punish myself in my mind more than anything a game could do for me so anything else just seems capricious. But then I am very much a perfectionist who hates doing something half heartly. This is also why I don;t have much respect for people who insist on hash in-game penalties since they seem to lack the dedication and motivation to try and be the best they can be.
So can someone tell me exactly what a HARDCORE MMORPG is? I mean a good well thought out definition and maybe an example. Last time I remember something being marked as HARDCORE is the permanent character death on Diablo 2 and I doubt people want permanent death on an MMO. So give a few key components to a Hardcore MMO and provide an example or 2. Much appreciated.
Hardcore MMORPG Example 1:
A MMORPG where you need to grind a lot in order to advance in the game. Another way to put it is hardcore in the sense that a game requires a substantial time committment in order to be competitive. Everquest, DAoC, SWG, and most classic MMORPG's fall into this example. Most Asian MMORPG's also fall into this example.
Hardcore MMORPG Example 2:
A MMORPG that has a ruleset, that only the maschoist would consider fun to play. Such a game may be PvP or PvE oriented, but is usually PvP oriented. The rulesets vary, but usually include harsh death penalties, a heavy time committment, and griefer friendly features, such as rare bosses that take 24+ hours to respawn, which are camped, and then kill stolen from you or Free For All (FFA) PvP, sometimes even with Full Loot enabled.
Out of the two examples, the only example I think has a future is the second one. The first example was just the way older MMORPG's kept people subscribed. With current competition, the focus on casual markets, and the negative publicity associated with games that require long time committments that foster unhealthy gaming habits, this type of game design is obsolete.
The second example is just a taste in gaming. Picture peoples tastes for MMORPG's on a spectrum. Extreme Casual being on one end, and Extreme Hardcore on the other. There will be games that fall anywhere on that spectrum, and will have their niche. The more hardcore the MMORPG, the smaller the niche.
I heard one of the players in my game lamenting that they added fast travel. It used to be "hardcore": if you wanted to be 20 miles away, you had to actually WALK 20 MILES to get there! No portals or fast travel!
So a basic definition would be that hardcore=realistic without any artificail helps, like fast travel, painless deaths, markers on maps for quests, etc.
I heard a clever man say once: If its worth getting, you have to make it yourself... it will be a long battle, with a lot of fustration and pain, but in the end you will make it, and it will change your life forever.... if it whas easy, everyone would have it, but 95% of the world population dies without getting it, because they gave up!
so what it means is that hardcore = passive about life?
A better question: When did being hardcore become a good thing?
If I am to imagine the mosthardcore gamer possible, I come up with:
Doesn't have a job, 'cos he spends all his time gaming.
Doesn't have friends or a girlfriend, 'cos they complain about the gaming.
Drinks vast amount of caffeine/energy drinks to prolong gaming sessions.
Barely sleeps and doesn't exercise to maximise gaming time.
Plans the few inescapable parts of his RL life around maintenance times.
Eats junkfood to save on wasted time preparing meals.
Lives in his own filth, 'cos he'd rather game than keep house.
Dies young and alone due to the combination of the above.
That's hardcore .. and seriously; would anyone really aspire to be this guy .. ?
Oh, just wait until these guys come out of the woodwork and complain because you're picking on them. You know they will, too.
There are even worse examples though:
Got fired from their job because they call in sick several times a week so they can sit home and play.
Flunked out of school for the same reason.
They have a 'girlfriend' that nobody has ever seen, she might even be in the game. Of course, it's some guy playing a female character, but the hardcore guy is too clueless to figure it out.
I knew a guy who really wore adult diapers so he never had to leave his keyboard. I'll leave that one to your imagination.
A lot of these definitions are of Hardcore Gamers, and not of Hardcore MMORPGs.
For the record, a Hardcore Player does not mean they don't have a job, or life, etc.
Here is what a hardcore player is:
Someone who can put up with anything the game throws at them. Someone who can handle a game that lacks rules. Someone who doesn't whine about bed times when raiding. Someone who knows a lot about the game.
Calling them no lifes is just a way that you carebears can make yourselves feel better. Just because someone is incompetent when it comes to a game, does not mean anyone who knows something about the game is a "hardcore, no life, etc."
A lot of these definitions are of Hardcore Gamers, and not of Hardcore MMORPGs.
For the record, a Hardcore Player does not mean they don't have a job, or life, etc.
Here is what a hardcore player is:
Someone who can put up with anything the game throws at them. Someone who can handle a game that lacks rules. Someone who doesn't whine about bed times when raiding. Someone who knows a lot about the game.
Calling them no lifes is just a way that you carebears can make yourselves feel better. Just because someone is incompetent when it comes to a game, does not mean anyone who knows something about the game is a "hardcore, no life, etc."
One question, do you consider yourself hardcore, and why.
Hardcore = stinging penalty for failure or sloppy gameplay
That about sums it up.
Must agree with this simple and straight definition for what hardcore means.
A hardcore player would be someone that plays the game alot, far more than the average player.
A hardcore game is one that when you **** up you get a harsh punishment for doing so. For instance early on in SWG being a Jedi was the embodiment of hardcore. You had to play long and grueling hours to just become one then you played long and grueling hours to grind the char up. All the time being hunted by other players (bounty hunters) who if killed you you lost a shit load of XP maybe a week to a months worth of grinding each death.
You had to be a hardcore player and playing a jedi was considered hardcore because of the extreme grind and extreme punishment for screwing up or just being killed by a superior foe. Jedi had all of these elements and was the embodiment in my opinion of hardcore gameplay.
Don't forget Perma-death was involved with Jedi as well.
This post sums it up well enough, nothing really to add except today "hardcore" is usally used to describe older games. EQ, SWG,AC and UO all could qualify as hardcore games in some way.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You can spot a "hardcore" gamer pretty easy. Just count the number of times they call you "carebear", "nub", or some other equally meaningless insult for the sole purpose of elevating themselves above all the "dirty masses" of other mmo gamers.
As for hardcore mmorpg s, they really don't exist anymore if they ever did. Most games that we remember as hardcore were do to the extreme timesinks that were a part of mmorpgs. Removing arbitrary timesinks like week long respawn timers on mobs opened up the mmo market to gamers that couldn't justify focusing so much time on doing nothing but waiting for things to happen. MMOs now focus on action instead of downtimes (going too far, imo).
That's really what it boils down too. Some call taking timesinks out of a game streamlinging the game, others call it taking out what it means to be hardcore.
How about we let the English language decide the definition for us.
Ready? Here we go.....
From the thefreedictionary.com (I believe #1 fits the bill).
hard-core also hard·core (härdkôr, -kr)
adj.
1. Intensely loyal; die-hard: a hard-core secessionist; a hard-core golfer.
2. Stubbornly resistant to improvement or change: hard-core poverty.
3. Extremely graphic or explicit: hard-core pornography.
Wow....
You just described WoW fanbois, WoW itself, and what a lot of teenage boys think of nightelves....all in a nice concise definition.
O M G....
WoW is HARDCORE! And all this time...I never knew it!
Note: I'm just playin' (to all the WoW'ers). This is a poor attempt even at lame humor. I'm just tryin' to be "kewl" and show my anti-WoW spirit so that I'll be pooopulaar on the interwebnetz.
Last company I interviewed with did consider WOW hardcore. A lot of people do, really.
That's just one of the reasons I consider the word useless. Plus you get the degenerative "no, this is hardcore", "nuh-uh, this is hardcore", "oh yeah, well this is even more hardcore", and the word rapidly dissolves into meaninglessness.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
A better question: When did being hardcore become a good thing?
If I am to imagine the mosthardcore gamer possible, I come up with:
Doesn't have a job, 'cos he spends all his time gaming.
Doesn't have friends or a girlfriend, 'cos they complain about the gaming.
Drinks vast amount of caffeine/energy drinks to prolong gaming sessions.
Barely sleeps and doesn't exercise to maximise gaming time.
Plans the few inescapable parts of his RL life around maintenance times.
Eats junkfood to save on wasted time preparing meals.
Lives in his own filth, 'cos he'd rather game than keep house.
Dies young and alone due to the combination of the above.
That's hardcore .. and seriously; would anyone really aspire to be this guy .. ?
Oh, just wait until these guys come out of the woodwork and complain because you're picking on them. You know they will, too.
There are even worse examples though:
Got fired from their job because they call in sick several times a week so they can sit home and play.
Flunked out of school for the same reason.
They have a 'girlfriend' that nobody has ever seen, she might even be in the game. Of course, it's some guy playing a female character, but the hardcore guy is too clueless to figure it out.
I knew a guy who really wore adult diapers so he never had to leave his keyboard. I'll leave that one to your imagination.
Yick.
I'm not sure what's more disturbing, the fact that he did it .. or that he was willing to tell you that he did it. I'm glad I'm living in england where we keep our perversions and shameful habits entirely secret.
But yeah, crux of my opinion: There are no hardcore games, just hardcore gamers.
And they're probably not a lot of fun at parties.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
"Hardcore" is a little bit elastic and vague as a term, but I would argue that it is still very useful and interesting as an adjective, even for mmorpgs and mmorpg players.
In general, and in the context of porn, hobbies, behaviour etc, it means to go further and to more extremes than the "average" or "ordinary" person. So we understand that "hardcore" porn actresses/actors do "more" than the average porn actors/actresses. We know that a "hardcore" golfer or fly fisher spends more time and energy and money on his hobby than the "average" golfer or fly fisher.
And, most importantly, we know from that powerful scene in Full Metal Jacket - the origin of the mmorpg and pop culture idea of "hardcore" - when Joker is referred to as "hardcore" for killing the wounded female vietcong that his being "hardcore" is becoming a killer, and, similar to the porno meaning of hardcore, of losing his relative innocence that most ordinary people retain, of crossing a boundary that separates Joker from who he once was and from most people back home.
So there you have it: hardcore is to take things further than most ordinary or average people. The elasticity or vagueness is in what we mean by "taking it further". Originally this had a negative meaning and especially in the movie Full Metal Jacket, as Kubrick admitted that the usage of "hardcore" derived from the porno meaning and is all negative: about going too far and losing ones relative innocence. It is an anti-war movie after all.
Unfortunately and fortunately, people take their own meaning from Full Metal Jacket. So many people twisted all the negative scenes - the degrading and aggressive prostitute scene, the hardcore quote scene with Joker, the helicopter gunner killing civilians etc - and derived positive meanings: it is KEWL to degrade yourself and women, it is KEWL to kill civilians with a heavy machine gun while gruntin out "get some", and it is KEWL to invade other countries and kill its indigenous peoples in war and have that KEWL bad ass thousand-yard-stare. Hardcore is now mostly a positive term as a result, although many people have forgotten the Full Metal Jacket origin of its current usage and how it has been subsequently twisted.
So I would argue whether hardcore in mmorpgs is a positive or negative term depends on what you understand as taking things further. If it is about grind and time-sink then that is probably negatively received by most people, if about player skill and tricksiness, then that is probably positive.
Depends on the context in which the expression is used. Typically referring to a gameplay variable which is in some way difficult. Legimately so, or otherwise. Like other expressions, is sometimes vulnerable to being hijacked by jabronis.
"Hardcore" is a little bit elastic and vague as a term, but I would argue that it is still very useful and interesting as an adjective, even for mmorpgs and mmorpg players.
In general, and in the context of porn, hobbies, behaviour etc, it means to go further and to more extremes than the "average" or "ordinary" person. So we understand that "hardcore" porn actresses/actors do "more" than the average porn actors/actresses. We know that a "hardcore" golfer or fly fisher spends more time and energy and money on his hobby than the "average" golfer or fly fisher.
And, most importantly, we know from that powerful scene in Full Metal Jacket - the origin of the mmorpg and pop culture idea of "hardcore" - when Joker is referred to as "hardcore" for killing the wounded female vietcong that his being "hardcore" is becoming a killer, and, similar to the porno meaning of hardcore, of losing his relative innocence that most ordinary people retain, of crossing a boundary that separates Joker from who he once was and from most people back home.
So there you have it: hardcore is to take things further than most ordinary or average people. The elasticity or vagueness is in what we mean by "taking it further". Originally this had a negative meaning and especially in the movie Full Metal Jacket, as Kubrick admitted that the usage of "hardcore" derived from the porno meaning and is all negative: about going too far and losing ones relative innocence. It is an anti-war movie after all.
Unfortunately and fortunately, people take their own meaning from Full Metal Jacket. So many people twisted all the negative scenes - the degrading and aggressive prostitute scene, the hardcore quote scene with Joker, the helicopter gunner killing civilians etc - and derived positive meanings: it is KEWL to degrade yourself and women, it is KEWL to kill civilians with a heavy machine gun while gruntin out "get some", and it is KEWL to invade other countries and kill its indigenous peoples in war and have that KEWL bad ass thousand-yard-stare. Hardcore is now mostly a positive term as a result, although many people have forgotten the Full Metal Jacket origin of its current usage and how it has been subsequently twisted.
So I would argue whether hardcore in mmorpgs is a positive or negative term depends on what you understand as taking things further. If it is about grind and time-sink then that is probably negatively received by most people, if about player skill and tricksiness, then that is probably positive.
Regards
Melmoth
I've read through this thread with interest and laughed at some of the immature replies especially Cephus & Ilvaldyr's posts where the same hackneyed cliches are trotted out everytime we try to understand the nature of why and how we play games. But then I read this post above and feel happy that someone has the skils to look at a common term in society as a whole and make a detailed explanantion of why it is used in gaming. Great post and a lesson to those you find it hard to grasp that language evolves to fit the situations that arise from behaviour and revel in putting others down to make themselves feel superior and this observation has come from reading certains posters thoughts over the past 18 months and not just this one thread.
Cal..
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Comments
Hardcore games are those that require you to numb yourself against game-play stimulation and intelligent or mature game-play entertainment due to the lack of sheer brainpower or thought it takes to trudge through the mundane and repetitively boring game-play; PotBS, WAR, Champions Online, Star Trek Online.
Striving for Silver Stars since Gold is so effeminate.
Nah,
A real Hardcore MMO would ship with Jumper Cable clamps that you would need to clamp to your junk while you play.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Indeed! We should also remember. You don't play "Hardcore" games, THEY play YOU.
Every MMORPG is AWESOME, until it's released!
I don't want a game so much as I want a WORLD!
--
o·pin·ion noun
1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
hardcore has nothing to do with being crappy and amazingly boring (respectively)
Personally I find the mere act of failing to be a very stinging penalty and anyother penalties seem artificial and unnecessary. I am going to punish myself in my mind more than anything a game could do for me so anything else just seems capricious. But then I am very much a perfectionist who hates doing something half heartly. This is also why I don;t have much respect for people who insist on hash in-game penalties since they seem to lack the dedication and motivation to try and be the best they can be.
Hardcore MMORPG Example 1:
A MMORPG where you need to grind a lot in order to advance in the game. Another way to put it is hardcore in the sense that a game requires a substantial time committment in order to be competitive. Everquest, DAoC, SWG, and most classic MMORPG's fall into this example. Most Asian MMORPG's also fall into this example.
Hardcore MMORPG Example 2:
A MMORPG that has a ruleset, that only the maschoist would consider fun to play. Such a game may be PvP or PvE oriented, but is usually PvP oriented. The rulesets vary, but usually include harsh death penalties, a heavy time committment, and griefer friendly features, such as rare bosses that take 24+ hours to respawn, which are camped, and then kill stolen from you or Free For All (FFA) PvP, sometimes even with Full Loot enabled.
Out of the two examples, the only example I think has a future is the second one. The first example was just the way older MMORPG's kept people subscribed. With current competition, the focus on casual markets, and the negative publicity associated with games that require long time committments that foster unhealthy gaming habits, this type of game design is obsolete.
The second example is just a taste in gaming. Picture peoples tastes for MMORPG's on a spectrum. Extreme Casual being on one end, and Extreme Hardcore on the other. There will be games that fall anywhere on that spectrum, and will have their niche. The more hardcore the MMORPG, the smaller the niche.
I heard one of the players in my game lamenting that they added fast travel. It used to be "hardcore": if you wanted to be 20 miles away, you had to actually WALK 20 MILES to get there! No portals or fast travel!
So a basic definition would be that hardcore=realistic without any artificail helps, like fast travel, painless deaths, markers on maps for quests, etc.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
Apparently, it does ;-) I predict the next "hardcore" MMO wiil be crappy AND amazingly boring -- a sure fire hit for the defective PK crowd.
Oh wait...isn't Mortal Online about to release? Another prediction comes to pass...
A better question: When did being hardcore become a good thing?
If I am to imagine the most hardcore gamer possible, I come up with:
Doesn't have a job, 'cos he spends all his time gaming.
Doesn't have friends or a girlfriend, 'cos they complain about the gaming.
Drinks vast amount of caffeine/energy drinks to prolong gaming sessions.
Barely sleeps and doesn't exercise to maximise gaming time.
Plans the few inescapable parts of his RL life around maintenance times.
Eats junkfood to save on wasted time preparing meals.
Lives in his own filth, 'cos he'd rather game than keep house.
Dies young and alone due to the combination of the above.
That's hardcore .. and seriously; would anyone really aspire to be this guy .. ?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I heard a clever man say once: If its worth getting, you have to make it yourself... it will be a long battle, with a lot of fustration and pain, but in the end you will make it, and it will change your life forever.... if it whas easy, everyone would have it, but 95% of the world population dies without getting it, because they gave up!
so what it means is that hardcore = passive about life?
Oh, just wait until these guys come out of the woodwork and complain because you're picking on them. You know they will, too.
There are even worse examples though:
Got fired from their job because they call in sick several times a week so they can sit home and play.
Flunked out of school for the same reason.
They have a 'girlfriend' that nobody has ever seen, she might even be in the game. Of course, it's some guy playing a female character, but the hardcore guy is too clueless to figure it out.
I knew a guy who really wore adult diapers so he never had to leave his keyboard. I'll leave that one to your imagination.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
A lot of these definitions are of Hardcore Gamers, and not of Hardcore MMORPGs.
For the record, a Hardcore Player does not mean they don't have a job, or life, etc.
Here is what a hardcore player is:
Someone who can put up with anything the game throws at them. Someone who can handle a game that lacks rules. Someone who doesn't whine about bed times when raiding. Someone who knows a lot about the game.
Calling them no lifes is just a way that you carebears can make yourselves feel better. Just because someone is incompetent when it comes to a game, does not mean anyone who knows something about the game is a "hardcore, no life, etc."
One question, do you consider yourself hardcore, and why.
Exocide
Don't forget Perma-death was involved with Jedi as well.
This post sums it up well enough, nothing really to add except today "hardcore" is usally used to describe older games. EQ, SWG,AC and UO all could qualify as hardcore games in some way.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Ok I will define "hard core" for everyone to put a stop to the discussion.
"Hard core player" is a term used by a player to describe their elitism, - "Hard core player"
"Hard core game" is a term used by "Hard core players" (see above definition) to describe a game they enjoy playing. - "Hard core game"
Exocide
You can spot a "hardcore" gamer pretty easy. Just count the number of times they call you "carebear", "nub", or some other equally meaningless insult for the sole purpose of elevating themselves above all the "dirty masses" of other mmo gamers.
As for hardcore mmorpg s, they really don't exist anymore if they ever did. Most games that we remember as hardcore were do to the extreme timesinks that were a part of mmorpgs. Removing arbitrary timesinks like week long respawn timers on mobs opened up the mmo market to gamers that couldn't justify focusing so much time on doing nothing but waiting for things to happen. MMOs now focus on action instead of downtimes (going too far, imo).
That's really what it boils down too. Some call taking timesinks out of a game streamlinging the game, others call it taking out what it means to be hardcore.
Wow....
You just described WoW fanbois, WoW itself, and what a lot of teenage boys think of nightelves....all in a nice concise definition.
O M G....
WoW is HARDCORE! And all this time...I never knew it!
Note: I'm just playin' (to all the WoW'ers). This is a poor attempt even at lame humor. I'm just tryin' to be "kewl" and show my anti-WoW spirit so that I'll be pooopulaar on the interwebnetz.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Last company I interviewed with did consider WOW hardcore. A lot of people do, really.
That's just one of the reasons I consider the word useless. Plus you get the degenerative "no, this is hardcore", "nuh-uh, this is hardcore", "oh yeah, well this is even more hardcore", and the word rapidly dissolves into meaninglessness.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yick.
I'm not sure what's more disturbing, the fact that he did it .. or that he was willing to tell you that he did it. I'm glad I'm living in england where we keep our perversions and shameful habits entirely secret.
But yeah, crux of my opinion: There are no hardcore games, just hardcore gamers.
And they're probably not a lot of fun at parties.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
"Hardcore" is a little bit elastic and vague as a term, but I would argue that it is still very useful and interesting as an adjective, even for mmorpgs and mmorpg players.
In general, and in the context of porn, hobbies, behaviour etc, it means to go further and to more extremes than the "average" or "ordinary" person. So we understand that "hardcore" porn actresses/actors do "more" than the average porn actors/actresses. We know that a "hardcore" golfer or fly fisher spends more time and energy and money on his hobby than the "average" golfer or fly fisher.
And, most importantly, we know from that powerful scene in Full Metal Jacket - the origin of the mmorpg and pop culture idea of "hardcore" - when Joker is referred to as "hardcore" for killing the wounded female vietcong that his being "hardcore" is becoming a killer, and, similar to the porno meaning of hardcore, of losing his relative innocence that most ordinary people retain, of crossing a boundary that separates Joker from who he once was and from most people back home.
So there you have it: hardcore is to take things further than most ordinary or average people. The elasticity or vagueness is in what we mean by "taking it further". Originally this had a negative meaning and especially in the movie Full Metal Jacket, as Kubrick admitted that the usage of "hardcore" derived from the porno meaning and is all negative: about going too far and losing ones relative innocence. It is an anti-war movie after all.
Unfortunately and fortunately, people take their own meaning from Full Metal Jacket. So many people twisted all the negative scenes - the degrading and aggressive prostitute scene, the hardcore quote scene with Joker, the helicopter gunner killing civilians etc - and derived positive meanings: it is KEWL to degrade yourself and women, it is KEWL to kill civilians with a heavy machine gun while gruntin out "get some", and it is KEWL to invade other countries and kill its indigenous peoples in war and have that KEWL bad ass thousand-yard-stare. Hardcore is now mostly a positive term as a result, although many people have forgotten the Full Metal Jacket origin of its current usage and how it has been subsequently twisted.
So I would argue whether hardcore in mmorpgs is a positive or negative term depends on what you understand as taking things further. If it is about grind and time-sink then that is probably negatively received by most people, if about player skill and tricksiness, then that is probably positive.
Regards
Melmoth
Hardcore doesn't mean anything. If it ever had any meaning, it is lost now. Nobody takes you seriously if you use it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Depends on the context in which the expression is used. Typically referring to a gameplay variable which is in some way difficult. Legimately so, or otherwise. Like other expressions, is sometimes vulnerable to being hijacked by jabronis.
Failure = Penalty
Dying in a dungeon and just running back where you were = non-hardcore
Dying in a dungeon and lose stats, equipment and/or exp = hardcore
I dont need really hard penalties. But with penalties, every success has more value (IMHO).
Harcore = No life isnt true, since wow is for no-lifers, but not hardcore at all
Just a normal Game is too "hardcore" for people who wants to play with toys.
Generation P
I've read through this thread with interest and laughed at some of the immature replies especially Cephus & Ilvaldyr's posts where the same hackneyed cliches are trotted out everytime we try to understand the nature of why and how we play games. But then I read this post above and feel happy that someone has the skils to look at a common term in society as a whole and make a detailed explanantion of why it is used in gaming. Great post and a lesson to those you find it hard to grasp that language evolves to fit the situations that arise from behaviour and revel in putting others down to make themselves feel superior and this observation has come from reading certains posters thoughts over the past 18 months and not just this one thread.
Cal..
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.