I've read through this thread with interest and laughed at some of the immature replies especially Cephus & Ilvaldyr's posts where the same hackneyed cliches are trotted out everytime we try to understand the nature of why and how we play games. But then I read this post above and feel happy that someone has the skils to look at a common term in society as a whole and make a detailed explanantion of why it is used in gaming. Great post and a lesson to those you find it hard to grasp that language evolves to fit the situations that arise from behaviour and revel in putting others down to make themselves feel superior and this observation has come from reading certains posters thoughts over the past 18 months and not just this one thread.
There's a big different between being immature and being accurate.
Cephus and I were describing a hypothetical extreme; the most "hardcore" gamer imaginable.
Obviously, very few people descend to that level of extreme behaviour.
A guy who plays 10 hours a week is "hardcore" to someone who plays 2 hours a week.
A guy who plays 40 hours a week is "hardcore" to the guy above.
A guy with no life who plays 200 hours a week is "hardcore" to both.
A guy who dies of kidney failure 'cos he's gaming 24/7 is "hardcore" to all three.
The further we get along the casual-to-hardcore line, the more negative the implications become .. so my point (which was in my post) is still unanswered; when did people start aspiring to be hardcore? When did being hardcore become a self-imposed badge of honour and something to be proud of? At what point does one become "too hardcore"?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
The point is your perception of hardcore and the literal way you see it, to me its just a term to differenciate between different types of behaviour and not a derogatory term used to put down people. The person you and Cephus describe is not a hardcore gamer that is someopne with social & psycological problems that should seek help like an alcholholic, drug addict or severe gambler and thats where my annoyance comes from yours, his and others posts. Gaming for some is their passion and they take their fun seriously like a football fan who supports Plymouth Argyll (small English football team) and follows them all over the country rain or shine at great expense even though they rarely have much success, they can be considered a hardcore football fan. Hardcore gamers to me want to get the most out of therir gaming and get annoyed by the amount games have come down in complexity and in the MMO world the way they have stopped being worlds you can live in with a thriving active and mature community. The term is used these days in the context that games can be more than just a frivolous piece of time wasting and that is dismissed all to readily by the guys who see it as cheap entertainment and nothing else.
I myself consider myself a hardcore gamer because of the reasons above and also gaming can enrich your life in many ways and MMO's extend that into a social realm as well, so my question is what is wrong with that? stop seeing extemes and the term stops having such a negative meaning and becomes a label to one end of the normal behaviour spectrum.
Cal...
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
The point is your perception of hardcore and the literal way you see it, to me its just a term to differenciate between different types of behaviour and not a derogatory term used to put down people. The person you and Cephus describe is not a hardcore gamer that is someopne with social & psycological problems that should seek help like an alcholholic, drug addict or severe gambler and thats where my annoyance comes from yours, his and others posts. Gaming for some is their passion and they take their fun seriously like a football fan who supports Plymouth Argyll (small English football team) and follows them all over the country rain or shine at great expense even though they rarely have much success, they can be considered a hardcore football fan. Hardcore gamers to me want to get the most out of therir gaming and get annoyed by the amount games have come down in complexity and in the MMO world the way they have stopped being worlds you can live in with a thriving active and mature community. The term is used these days in the context that games can be more than just a frivolous piece of time wasting and that is dismissed all to readily by the guys who see it as cheap entertainment and nothing else.
I myself consider myself a hardcore gamer because of the reasons above and also gaming can enrich your life in many ways and MMO's extend that into a social realm as well, so my question is what is wrong with that? stop seeing extemes and the term stops having such a negative meaning and becomes a label to one end of the normal behaviour spectrum.
Cal...
Burying ones head in the sand doesn't change anything. Extremes do exist.
The fact remains; time is not an infinite resource.
If you want to be hardcore at something, then you have to expend a great deal of time and attention to that something. The only way to do so is to sacrifice other parts of your life on the altar of your hardcore obsession. Now there's nothing wrong with that, it's personal choice and everyone has their own idea of how much time they're willing to sacrifice, but I don't understand the mentality whereby self-labelled hardcore gamers delude themselves into thinking that sacrificing vast chunks of their life on the altar of gaming is to be proud of.
And there's the other problem; games are supposed to be cheap entertainment.
They are supposed to be a frovolous method of passing ones recreation time.
I don't think that games are supposed to be taken so seriously.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Burying ones head in the sand doesn't change anything. Extremes do exist.
The fact remains; time is not an infinite resource.
If you want to be hardcore at something, then you have to expend a great deal of time and attention to that something. The only way to do so is to sacrifice other parts of your life on the altar of your hardcore obsession. Now there's nothing wrong with that, it's personal choice and everyone has their own idea of how much time they're willing to sacrifice, but I don't understand the mentality whereby self-labelled hardcore gamers delude themselves into thinking that sacrificing vast chunks of their life on the altar of gaming is to be proud of.
And there's the other problem; games are supposed to be cheap entertainment.
They are supposed to be a frovolous method of passing ones recreation time.
I don't think that games are supposed to be taken so seriously.
And that's yours and others problem with the term hardcore, this also correlates to many other subjects that are debated passionately on these boards, community, grouping, death penalty etc.. and it also is why gaming is percieved as a kids pastime. I look at gaming as I do with my other passion, music, as an artform and thus can have all the trappings of all great Art like Picasso's Guernica, Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, Great Expectations (film), Lord Of The Rings (Book)or Shakespears Macbeth, and have moments of deep emotional reaction, you get this emotion from players of older games when they describe their experiences in UO, EQ & AC (and again it is dismissed by people with your attitude as just shallow reminiscence) or in my case since I missed the early days of MMO's Half Life, Deus Ex, NWN. The trivialisation of music in the mainstream makes me angry and has being going on for the past 20 years and I see the same happening to gaming. I'm lucky to love underground music and Classical and with Classical in particular only the great deep and meaning composers have survived time and I'm greatful for that just as gamers will remember UO, EQ, Half Life & ME2 for many years and forget AOC, STO and Warhammer Online, retro gaming is now becoming a bigger pastime as a reaction to the dumbing down of the modern gaming scene (anyone for a game of Elite ). I don't need everything to be this way as I have a liking for some pop music and loved WoW when I played it but what is wrong with wanting more from you gaming time than just a bit of fun, Bioware, Creative Assembly, Icarus, Aventurine and Valve seem to understand this and are attempting to put you in the thick of the action where your actions count, they are at least trying to give you a deep emotional experience which enriches your life just like a great piece of music, film or art can.
And as for having my head in the sand, yes extremes do exist but they are far from the norm as some like to think and thus under the topic of debate are irrelevant because they are caused by problems outside of normal behaviour and have no bearing on the multitude of gamers.
Cal...
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
A guy who dies of kidney failure 'cos he's gaming 24/7 is "hardcore" to all three.
You say "hardcore", I say "complete idiot"
Wait...now that I think of it....I'll bet there is a correlation between how "hardcore" a person thinks they are and how much of an idiot they are. We need a study!!! Someone contact Washington!!! I'm sure our worthless government will be glad to slap an amendment onto the healthcare bill and allocate some taxpayer $$ to study it.
And that's yours and others problem with the term hardcore, this also correlates to many other subjects that are debated passionately on these boards, community, grouping, death penalty etc.. and it also is why gaming is percieved as a kids pastime. I look at gaming as I do with my other passion, music, as an artform and thus can have all the trappings of all great Art like Picasso's Guernica, Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, Great Expectations (film), Lord Of The Rings (Book)or Shakespears Macbeth, and have moments of deep emotional reaction, you get this emotion from players of older games when they describe their experiences in UO, EQ & AC (and again it is dismissed by people with your attitude as just shallow reminiscence) or in my case since I missed the early days of MMO's Half Life, Deus Ex, NWN. The trivialisation of music in the mainstream makes me angry and has being going on for the past 20 years and I see the same happening to gaming. I'm lucky to love underground music and Classical and with Classical in particular only the great deep and meaning composers have survived time and I'm greatful for that just as gamers will remember UO, EQ, Half Life & ME2 for many years and forget AOC, STO and Warhammer Online, retro gaming is now becoming a bigger pastime as a reaction to the dumbing down of the modern gaming scene (anyone for a game of Elite ). I don't need everything to be this way as I have a liking for some pop music and loved WoW when I played it but what is wrong with wanting more from you gaming time than just a bit of fun, Bioware, Creative Assembly and Valve seem to understand this and are attempting to put you in the thick of the action where your actions count, they are at least trying to give you a deep emotional experience which enriches your life just like a great piece of music, film or art can.
And as for having my head in the sand, yes extremes do exist but they are far from the norm as some like to think and thus under the topic of debate are irrelevant because they are caused by problems outside of normal behaviour and have no bearing on the multitude of gamers.
I'm right there with ya on this sentence, at least.
Those early days of MMOs you mentioned? .. I was there. I played those games and remember them without the rose-tinted glow of nostalgia. I had good times in them, I had bad times in them. I can say the exact same thing about modern games too.
But this topic isn't about that; and the ability of a game developer to make a game that grips the player by the testicles and provides a great gaming experience doesn't have anything to do with whether said player is "hardcore" or not.
I consider myself pretty casual now; I play ~10 to 15 hours a week, and that doesn't impede my ability to enjoy the hell out of a good game. If anything, I think my moderate playing times enhance my enjoyment; it's been years since I experienced the sort of burnout that I've seen a lot of hardcore players experience.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
love the responses given so far, funny that people actually are serious about some of the definitions they give. Talk about the right kind of epeen bait for fishing in these waters...if only I had some popcorn to go with this thread; but seriously guys and girls...good work so far
P.S. some of you guys/women should really start working at a think tank or something cause you could be getting paid for all that thinking. just throwing that out there
Comments
There's a big different between being immature and being accurate.
Cephus and I were describing a hypothetical extreme; the most "hardcore" gamer imaginable.
Obviously, very few people descend to that level of extreme behaviour.
A guy who plays 10 hours a week is "hardcore" to someone who plays 2 hours a week.
A guy who plays 40 hours a week is "hardcore" to the guy above.
A guy with no life who plays 200 hours a week is "hardcore" to both.
A guy who dies of kidney failure 'cos he's gaming 24/7 is "hardcore" to all three.
The further we get along the casual-to-hardcore line, the more negative the implications become .. so my point (which was in my post) is still unanswered; when did people start aspiring to be hardcore? When did being hardcore become a self-imposed badge of honour and something to be proud of? At what point does one become "too hardcore"?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
@Ilvadyr
The point is your perception of hardcore and the literal way you see it, to me its just a term to differenciate between different types of behaviour and not a derogatory term used to put down people. The person you and Cephus describe is not a hardcore gamer that is someopne with social & psycological problems that should seek help like an alcholholic, drug addict or severe gambler and thats where my annoyance comes from yours, his and others posts. Gaming for some is their passion and they take their fun seriously like a football fan who supports Plymouth Argyll (small English football team) and follows them all over the country rain or shine at great expense even though they rarely have much success, they can be considered a hardcore football fan. Hardcore gamers to me want to get the most out of therir gaming and get annoyed by the amount games have come down in complexity and in the MMO world the way they have stopped being worlds you can live in with a thriving active and mature community. The term is used these days in the context that games can be more than just a frivolous piece of time wasting and that is dismissed all to readily by the guys who see it as cheap entertainment and nothing else.
I myself consider myself a hardcore gamer because of the reasons above and also gaming can enrich your life in many ways and MMO's extend that into a social realm as well, so my question is what is wrong with that? stop seeing extemes and the term stops having such a negative meaning and becomes a label to one end of the normal behaviour spectrum.
Cal...
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Burying ones head in the sand doesn't change anything. Extremes do exist.
The fact remains; time is not an infinite resource.
If you want to be hardcore at something, then you have to expend a great deal of time and attention to that something. The only way to do so is to sacrifice other parts of your life on the altar of your hardcore obsession. Now there's nothing wrong with that, it's personal choice and everyone has their own idea of how much time they're willing to sacrifice, but I don't understand the mentality whereby self-labelled hardcore gamers delude themselves into thinking that sacrificing vast chunks of their life on the altar of gaming is to be proud of.
And there's the other problem; games are supposed to be cheap entertainment.
They are supposed to be a frovolous method of passing ones recreation time.
I don't think that games are supposed to be taken so seriously.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
And that's yours and others problem with the term hardcore, this also correlates to many other subjects that are debated passionately on these boards, community, grouping, death penalty etc.. and it also is why gaming is percieved as a kids pastime. I look at gaming as I do with my other passion, music, as an artform and thus can have all the trappings of all great Art like Picasso's Guernica, Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, Great Expectations (film), Lord Of The Rings (Book)or Shakespears Macbeth, and have moments of deep emotional reaction, you get this emotion from players of older games when they describe their experiences in UO, EQ & AC (and again it is dismissed by people with your attitude as just shallow reminiscence) or in my case since I missed the early days of MMO's Half Life, Deus Ex, NWN. The trivialisation of music in the mainstream makes me angry and has being going on for the past 20 years and I see the same happening to gaming. I'm lucky to love underground music and Classical and with Classical in particular only the great deep and meaning composers have survived time and I'm greatful for that just as gamers will remember UO, EQ, Half Life & ME2 for many years and forget AOC, STO and Warhammer Online, retro gaming is now becoming a bigger pastime as a reaction to the dumbing down of the modern gaming scene (anyone for a game of Elite
). I don't need everything to be this way as I have a liking for some pop music and loved WoW when I played it but what is wrong with wanting more from you gaming time than just a bit of fun, Bioware, Creative Assembly, Icarus, Aventurine and Valve seem to understand this and are attempting to put you in the thick of the action where your actions count, they are at least trying to give you a deep emotional experience which enriches your life just like a great piece of music, film or art can.
And as for having my head in the sand, yes extremes do exist but they are far from the norm as some like to think and thus under the topic of debate are irrelevant because they are caused by problems outside of normal behaviour and have no bearing on the multitude of gamers.
Cal...
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
You say "hardcore", I say "complete idiot"
Wait...now that I think of it....I'll bet there is a correlation between how "hardcore" a person thinks they are and how much of an idiot they are. We need a study!!! Someone contact Washington!!! I'm sure our worthless government will be glad to slap an amendment onto the healthcare bill and allocate some taxpayer $$ to study it.
I'm right there with ya on this sentence, at least.
Those early days of MMOs you mentioned? .. I was there. I played those games and remember them without the rose-tinted glow of nostalgia. I had good times in them, I had bad times in them. I can say the exact same thing about modern games too.
But this topic isn't about that; and the ability of a game developer to make a game that grips the player by the testicles and provides a great gaming experience doesn't have anything to do with whether said player is "hardcore" or not.
I consider myself pretty casual now; I play ~10 to 15 hours a week, and that doesn't impede my ability to enjoy the hell out of a good game. If anything, I think my moderate playing times enhance my enjoyment; it's been years since I experienced the sort of burnout that I've seen a lot of hardcore players experience.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
If you die, you die...
RIP Orc Choppa
love the responses given so far, funny that people actually are serious about some of the definitions they give. Talk about the right kind of epeen bait for fishing in these waters...if only I had some popcorn to go with this thread; but seriously guys and girls...good work so far
P.S. some of you guys/women should really start working at a think tank or something cause you could be getting paid for all that thinking. just throwing that out there
HEAVEN OR HELL
Duel 1
Lets ROCK!
Hardcore!