It has the trinity in it, but it escaped the trinity? Do you even read what you type?
There is no need to be mean sir, I am merely stating my point of view, I do not understand why you think that something that is MOSTLY a support class is counted as what ever else it does as well.
If a Wizard can heal, but most of the time and in most parties it winds up being the damage dealer, how ever could function AS a healer in a party as well, would that make it a healer? NO of course not!
The bard spell you refer to is a Reraise spell, it will raise someone from the dead if they have died after the spell already was on them, they rarely use this spell. If a paladin has Raise, but is mostly a tank, does that make him a healer too?
No logic in your statements sir.
Your feelings get hurt very quickly.
I wasn't being mean, just pointing out how big of an oxymoron that statement was.
It is not an Oxymoron, and my feelings are fine sir, I was merely pointing out there is no need to make personal statements.
A trinity is made up of 3 things, hence the prefix Tri.
When you admit yourself there are 4 roles in some games, DAOC included, which I also played as a Warden, then that is not a Trinity is it?
4 class types. I don't understand where you are confused.
It has the trinity in it, but it escaped the trinity? Do you even read what you type?
There is no need to be mean sir, I am merely stating my point of view, I do not understand why you think that something that is MOSTLY a support class is counted as what ever else it does as well.
If a Wizard can heal, but most of the time and in most parties it winds up being the damage dealer, how ever could function AS a healer in a party as well, would that make it a healer? NO of course not!
The bard spell you refer to is a Reraise spell, it will raise someone from the dead if they have died after the spell already was on them, they rarely use this spell. If a paladin has Raise, but is mostly a tank, does that make him a healer too?
No logic in your statements sir.
Your feelings get hurt very quickly
I wasn't being mean, just pointing out how big of an oxymoron that statement was.
You just really do not get it......
A Paladin can TANK and HEAL.
In FFXI it is primary used as a TANK but also it can heal. It really doesn't matter what you call it, a tank or a healer it's in the trinity which is the basis to this conversation.
By your example a wizard who can heal wouldn't be called a healer...
Yeah if he joined the party to DPS we would call him a DPS, but let's say half way through stuff started getting thick and he had to fall back and heal some. He is now a healer. Still doesn't matter though because if he is a dps wizard or a healer wizard he is still in the trinity. This was the original point.
You are the only person I have ever seen that tried to argue the trinity point. Most people just drop it because you can't argue the trinity point. It is always there. It will always be there.
Despite what SE says they are avoiding it will be there.
This is not only a MMO but a Final fantasy game and they also have their own trends.
Some MMOs only have a single race like AoC and Guildwars also but the OPs point here is right. A new FF game just should have a new setting as well, MMO or no MMO.
Yeah!!! There should be different races in every FF like in FFVII there are Humans and in FFVIII there are Humans and in FFX there are Humans and in FFXIII there are Humans and in FFI-VI there are Humans.
"Oh, other MMO's can get away with having only one race or existing races, but SE should create everything from the ground up for every game they make."
High expectations ya'll have.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
It has the trinity in it, but it escaped the trinity? Do you even read what you type?
There is no need to be mean sir, I am merely stating my point of view, I do not understand why you think that something that is MOSTLY a support class is counted as what ever else it does as well.
If a Wizard can heal, but most of the time and in most parties it winds up being the damage dealer, how ever could function AS a healer in a party as well, would that make it a healer? NO of course not!
The bard spell you refer to is a Reraise spell, it will raise someone from the dead if they have died after the spell already was on them, they rarely use this spell. If a paladin has Raise, but is mostly a tank, does that make him a healer too?
No logic in your statements sir.
Your feelings get hurt very quickly.
I wasn't being mean, just pointing out how big of an oxymoron that statement was.
It is not an Oxymoron, and my feelings are fine sir, I was merely pointing out there is no need to make personal statements.
A trinity is made up of 3 things, hence the prefix Tri.
When you admit yourself there are 4 roles in some games, DAOC included, which I also played as a Warden, then that is not a Trinity is it?
4 class types. I don't understand where you are confused.
Because you are the one confused.
This is the trinity of gaming.
TANK -> DPS -> HEALER
It is present in everything.
Some games have the trinity.
TANK -> DPS -> HEALER and way over here as a + BUFFER
Look at it.
Trinity. & Trinity + buffer.
Trinity still there, trinity still present. Buffer doesn't go into the trinity. It is an outside group.
Like Paper, Rock, Scissor, Mushroom.
EDIT - And now I am just going to get off work and go home and shake my head. No point arguing with a FF Fan. They see nothing, hear nothing, and say nothing except what they want. Everything else is meaningless regardless if it is right or wrong. Do me a favor though, head over to the general forum, not the FFXIV forum, and ask normal people to name a game that the trinity in NOT present aside from EVE Online. I think you are going to be met with a lot of people trying to explain the same thing to you that I am.
Say I'm a Bard and I have some cure spells, and I can heal some, but mostly I do buffer things. I'm a healer?
Ok so now I'm a warrior with some heal spells, I can heal some, but mostly I do damage things. I'm a healer? of course not.
So why do things that are MOSTLY support and only a little bit of something else, get counted as the something else.
Does not make sense to me.
What do you do as abard that is so important to the battle. Essentially, take out the "tank" does the group still battle, do they have a chance of winning the battle. Take out the healer... take out the dps... ok now take out the buffer. Even without the buffer it can still battle. All a buffer does is increase the attack, damage and healing abilities. It does nothing else that make it unique, makes it stand on its own. It's the waterboy of the MMO world.
Many parties in FFXI won't even start until you have a bard or a Corsair.
Why? MP refresh, if you don't have you don't have your MP going up without sitting parties are a lot slower, and then your exp per hour is really low. People want exp fast!
They are not NEEDED but everyone WANTS them, they make it so you destroy monsters a lot quicker and your tank is a lot safer and your DPS never misses ect.
Corsair has an ability that increases the EXP you get per kill too, a lot of parties find this extremely important.
Bard's and Corsairs can Sleep monsters too, so if you get too many you can save your party from certain doom by making them sleep.
They are the ultimate support jobs, they make everything a well oiled machine.
As a FFXI player I see people shouting for a Corsair or a Bard all the time, its certainly the most desired class for any party, you must have one or the other or the party is considered a waste by many people's standards.
So if all a class does is
A. Enhance others attributes and stats like their magic damage mp regen or their damage avoidance
B. Debuff monsters for instance Sleeping them or blinding them so they can't hit the tank.
It has the trinity in it, but it escaped the trinity? Do you even read what you type?
There is no need to be mean sir, I am merely stating my point of view, I do not understand why you think that something that is MOSTLY a support class is counted as what ever else it does as well.
If a Wizard can heal, but most of the time and in most parties it winds up being the damage dealer, how ever could function AS a healer in a party as well, would that make it a healer? NO of course not!
The bard spell you refer to is a Reraise spell, it will raise someone from the dead if they have died after the spell already was on them, they rarely use this spell. If a paladin has Raise, but is mostly a tank, does that make him a healer too?
No logic in your statements sir.
Your feelings get hurt very quickly.
I wasn't being mean, just pointing out how big of an oxymoron that statement was.
It is not an Oxymoron, and my feelings are fine sir, I was merely pointing out there is no need to make personal statements.
A trinity is made up of 3 things, hence the prefix Tri.
When you admit yourself there are 4 roles in some games, DAOC included, which I also played as a Warden, then that is not a Trinity is it?
4 class types. I don't understand where you are confused.
Because you are the one confused.
This is the trinity of gaming.
TANK -> DPS -> HEALER
It is present in everything.
Some games have the trinity.
TANK -> DPS -> HEALER and way over here as a + BUFFER
Look at it.
Trinity. & Trinity + buffer.
Trinity still there, trinity still present. Buffer doesn't go into the trinity. It is an outside group.
Like Paper, Rock, Scissor, Mushroom.
EDIT - And now I am just going to get off work and go home and shake my head. No point arguing with a FF Fan. They see nothing, hear nothing, and say nothing except what they want. Everything else is meaningless regardless if it is right or wrong. Do me a favor though, head over to the general forum, not the FFXI forum, and ask normal people to name a game that the trinity in NOT present aside from EVE Online. I think you are going to be met with a lot of people trying to explain the same thing to you that I am.
If you cannot complete or overcome certain situations in a game without a buffer class being present in the group then that trinity is broken. No longer being 3.
Say I'm a Bard and I have some cure spells, and I can heal some, but mostly I do buffer things. I'm a healer?
Ok so now I'm a warrior with some heal spells, I can heal some, but mostly I do damage things. I'm a healer? of course not.
So why do things that are MOSTLY support and only a little bit of something else, get counted as the something else.
Does not make sense to me.
What do you do as abard that is so important to the battle. Essentially, take out the "tank" does the group still battle, do they have a chance of winning the battle. Take out the healer... take out the dps... ok now take out the buffer. Even without the buffer it can still battle. All a buffer does is increase the attack, damage and healing abilities. It does nothing else that make it unique, makes it stand on its own. It's the waterboy of the MMO world.
Many parties in FFXI won't even start until you have a bard or a Corsair.
Why? MP refresh, if you don't have you don't have your MP going up without sitting parties are a lot slower, and then your exp per hour is really low. People want exp fast!
They are not NEEDED but everyone WANTS them, they make it so you destroy monsters a lot quicker and your tank is a lot safer and your DPS never misses ect.
Corsair has an ability that increases the EXP you get per kill too, a lot of parties find this extremely important.
Bard's and Corsairs can Sleep monsters too, so if you get too many you can save your party from certain doom by making them sleep.
They are the ultimate support jobs, they make everything a well oiled machine.
As a FFXI player I see people shouting for a Corsair or a Bard all the time, its certainly the most desired class for any party, you must have one or the other or the party is considered a waste by many people's standards.
So if all a class does is
A. Enhance others attributes and stats like their magic damage mp regen or their damage avoidance
B. Debuff monsters for instance Sleeping them or blinding them so they can't hit the tank.
What is it? A tank? A healer? a DPS?
Its a support class.
the 4th class type.
WOW.... You just did it agian, completely danced around everything he was saying. You mentioned it but then went on a full spill about how useful a buffer can be.
The real meaning to his post was this. YOU DO NOT NEED A BUFFER IN YOUR PARTY PERIOD......
You have the trinity, and that is all you need.
Tank - check
DPS - check
Healer - check
Buffer - Nice to have but really do not need to achieve what we want
It has the trinity in it, but it escaped the trinity? Do you even read what you type?
There is no need to be mean sir, I am merely stating my point of view, I do not understand why you think that something that is MOSTLY a support class is counted as what ever else it does as well.
If a Wizard can heal, but most of the time and in most parties it winds up being the damage dealer, how ever could function AS a healer in a party as well, would that make it a healer? NO of course not!
The bard spell you refer to is a Reraise spell, it will raise someone from the dead if they have died after the spell already was on them, they rarely use this spell. If a paladin has Raise, but is mostly a tank, does that make him a healer too?
No logic in your statements sir.
Your feelings get hurt very quickly.
I wasn't being mean, just pointing out how big of an oxymoron that statement was.
It is not an Oxymoron, and my feelings are fine sir, I was merely pointing out there is no need to make personal statements.
A trinity is made up of 3 things, hence the prefix Tri.
When you admit yourself there are 4 roles in some games, DAOC included, which I also played as a Warden, then that is not a Trinity is it?
4 class types. I don't understand where you are confused.
Because you are the one confused.
This is the trinity of gaming.
TANK -> DPS -> HEALER
It is present in everything.
Some games have the trinity.
TANK -> DPS -> HEALER and way over here as a + BUFFER
Look at it.
Trinity. & Trinity + buffer.
Trinity still there, trinity still present. Buffer doesn't go into the trinity. It is an outside group.
Like Paper, Rock, Scissor, Mushroom.
EDIT - And now I am just going to get off work and go home and shake my head. No point arguing with a FF Fan. They see nothing, hear nothing, and say nothing except what they want. Everything else is meaningless regardless if it is right or wrong. Do me a favor though, head over to the general forum, not the FFXI forum, and ask normal people to name a game that the trinity in NOT present aside from EVE Online. I think you are going to be met with a lot of people trying to explain the same thing to you that I am.
If you cannot complete or overcome certain situations in a game without a buffer class being present in the group then that trinity is broken. No longer being 3.
There is not one game where a buffer makes or breaks a trinity group. They are nice to have, but never ever for any reason required to have.
Say I'm a Bard and I have some cure spells, and I can heal some, but mostly I do buffer things. I'm a healer?
Ok so now I'm a warrior with some heal spells, I can heal some, but mostly I do damage things. I'm a healer? of course not.
So why do things that are MOSTLY support and only a little bit of something else, get counted as the something else.
Does not make sense to me.
What do you do as abard that is so important to the battle. Essentially, take out the "tank" does the group still battle, do they have a chance of winning the battle. Take out the healer... take out the dps... ok now take out the buffer. Even without the buffer it can still battle. All a buffer does is increase the attack, damage and healing abilities. It does nothing else that make it unique, makes it stand on its own. It's the waterboy of the MMO world.
Many parties in FFXI won't even start until you have a bard or a Corsair.
Why? MP refresh, if you don't have you don't have your MP going up without sitting parties are a lot slower, and then your exp per hour is really low. People want exp fast!
They are not NEEDED but everyone WANTS them, they make it so you destroy monsters a lot quicker and your tank is a lot safer and your DPS never misses ect.
Corsair has an ability that increases the EXP you get per kill too, a lot of parties find this extremely important.
Bard's and Corsairs can Sleep monsters too, so if you get too many you can save your party from certain doom by making them sleep.
They are the ultimate support jobs, they make everything a well oiled machine.
As a FFXI player I see people shouting for a Corsair or a Bard all the time, its certainly the most desired class for any party, you must have one or the other or the party is considered a waste by many people's standards.
So if all a class does is
A. Enhance others attributes and stats like their magic damage mp regen or their damage avoidance
B. Debuff monsters for instance Sleeping them or blinding them so they can't hit the tank.
What is it? A tank? A healer? a DPS?
Its a support class.
the 4th class type.
WOW.... You just did it agian, completely danced around everything he was saying. You mentioned it but then went on a full spill about how useful a buffer can be.
The real meaning to his post was this. YOU DO NOT NEED A BUFFER IN YOUR PARTY PERIOD...... (This is where your statement was incorrect.)
You have the trinity, and that is all you need.
Tank - check
DPS - check
Healer - check
Buffer - Nice to have but really do not need to achieve what we want
Ok let the fight begin.
Sigh I give up.
There are a lot of encounters in FFXI you CANNOT DO without a Bard.
Which is a PURE support class.
What does that mean? Its a valid 4th class that is needed in this game to complete objectives.
Say I'm a Bard and I have some cure spells, and I can heal some, but mostly I do buffer things. I'm a healer?
Ok so now I'm a warrior with some heal spells, I can heal some, but mostly I do damage things. I'm a healer? of course not.
So why do things that are MOSTLY support and only a little bit of something else, get counted as the something else.
Does not make sense to me.
What do you do as abard that is so important to the battle. Essentially, take out the "tank" does the group still battle, do they have a chance of winning the battle. Take out the healer... take out the dps... ok now take out the buffer. Even without the buffer it can still battle. All a buffer does is increase the attack, damage and healing abilities. It does nothing else that make it unique, makes it stand on its own. It's the waterboy of the MMO world.
Many parties in FFXI won't even start until you have a bard or a Corsair.
Why? MP refresh, if you don't have you don't have your MP going up without sitting parties are a lot slower, and then your exp per hour is really low. People want exp fast!
They are not NEEDED but everyone WANTS them, they make it so you destroy monsters a lot quicker and your tank is a lot safer and your DPS never misses ect.
Corsair has an ability that increases the EXP you get per kill too, a lot of parties find this extremely important.
Bard's and Corsairs can Sleep monsters too, so if you get too many you can save your party from certain doom by making them sleep.
They are the ultimate support jobs, they make everything a well oiled machine.
As a FFXI player I see people shouting for a Corsair or a Bard all the time, its certainly the most desired class for any party, you must have one or the other or the party is considered a waste by many people's standards.
So if all a class does is
A. Enhance others attributes and stats like their magic damage mp regen or their damage avoidance
B. Debuff monsters for instance Sleeping them or blinding them so they can't hit the tank.
What is it? A tank? A healer? a DPS?
Its a support class.
the 4th class type.
WOW.... You just did it agian, completely danced around everything he was saying. You mentioned it but then went on a full spill about how useful a buffer can be.
The real meaning to his post was this. YOU DO NOT NEED A BUFFER IN YOUR PARTY PERIOD...... (This is where your statement was incorrect.)
You have the trinity, and that is all you need.
Tank - check
DPS - check
Healer - check
Buffer - Nice to have but really do not need to achieve what we want
Ok let the fight begin.
Sigh I give up.
There are a lot of encounters in FFXI you CANNOT DO without a Bard.
Which is a PURE support class.
What does that mean? Its a valid 4th class that is needed in this game to complete objectives.
That isn't true at all.
Tell me one thing in FFXI you can't do without a bard, and I will login, get the Linkshell to do it without a bard, make you a MOVIE showing you it can be done without the bard and post it for you.
Seriously I will, cause there is nothing in that game that can't be done without that class.
Now I am seriously going h ome from work, I will fire up some fraps, just let me know what you wanna see done without a bard.
It has the trinity in it, but it escaped the trinity? Do you even read what you type?
There is no need to be mean sir, I am merely stating my point of view, I do not understand why you think that something that is MOSTLY a support class is counted as what ever else it does as well.
If a Wizard can heal, but most of the time and in most parties it winds up being the damage dealer, how ever could function AS a healer in a party as well, would that make it a healer? NO of course not!
The bard spell you refer to is a Reraise spell, it will raise someone from the dead if they have died after the spell already was on them, they rarely use this spell. If a paladin has Raise, but is mostly a tank, does that make him a healer too?
No logic in your statements sir.
Your feelings get hurt very quickly.
I wasn't being mean, just pointing out how big of an oxymoron that statement was.
It is not an Oxymoron, and my feelings are fine sir, I was merely pointing out there is no need to make personal statements.
A trinity is made up of 3 things, hence the prefix Tri.
When you admit yourself there are 4 roles in some games, DAOC included, which I also played as a Warden, then that is not a Trinity is it?
4 class types. I don't understand where you are confused.
Because you are the one confused.
This is the trinity of gaming.
TANK -> DPS -> HEALER
It is present in everything.
Some games have the trinity.
TANK -> DPS -> HEALER and way over here as a + BUFFER
Look at it.
Trinity. & Trinity + buffer.
Trinity still there, trinity still present. Buffer doesn't go into the trinity. It is an outside group.
Like Paper, Rock, Scissor, Mushroom.
EDIT - And now I am just going to get off work and go home and shake my head. No point arguing with a FF Fan. They see nothing, hear nothing, and say nothing except what they want. Everything else is meaningless regardless if it is right or wrong. Do me a favor though, head over to the general forum, not the FFXI forum, and ask normal people to name a game that the trinity in NOT present aside from EVE Online. I think you are going to be met with a lot of people trying to explain the same thing to you that I am.
If you cannot complete or overcome certain situations in a game without a buffer class being present in the group then that trinity is broken. No longer being 3.
There is not one game where a buffer makes or breaks a trinity group. They are nice to have, but never ever for any reason required to have.
Trinity classes though are ALWAYS a must.
I never denied that the trinity classes are always needed. My point is that there are some encounters in games where you cannot make it through unless you have a particular "support" class present in your group. If that is so even if it id only for a few encounters. That would make this trinity void because it would be 4 classes.
Bottom line, I dare any game to make a game without a tank, without a healer and without a dps. Take out the whole concept of "threat". Take out the idea that creatures are so stupid they concentrate on one party member while others heal, and do damage to it.
Give PCs special abilities that do not equate in statistical damage and statistical healing.
In what single player rpg are enemies as stupid as they are in MMOs?
Again I say, you can play just about every mmo on the market the exact same way. Even the FPS genre continues to make changes and inovations every year.
Say I'm a Bard and I have some cure spells, and I can heal some, but mostly I do buffer things. I'm a healer?
Ok so now I'm a warrior with some heal spells, I can heal some, but mostly I do damage things. I'm a healer? of course not.
So why do things that are MOSTLY support and only a little bit of something else, get counted as the something else.
Does not make sense to me.
What do you do as abard that is so important to the battle. Essentially, take out the "tank" does the group still battle, do they have a chance of winning the battle. Take out the healer... take out the dps... ok now take out the buffer. Even without the buffer it can still battle. All a buffer does is increase the attack, damage and healing abilities. It does nothing else that make it unique, makes it stand on its own. It's the waterboy of the MMO world.
Many parties in FFXI won't even start until you have a bard or a Corsair.
Why? MP refresh, if you don't have you don't have your MP going up without sitting parties are a lot slower, and then your exp per hour is really low. People want exp fast!
They are not NEEDED but everyone WANTS them, they make it so you destroy monsters a lot quicker and your tank is a lot safer and your DPS never misses ect.
Corsair has an ability that increases the EXP you get per kill too, a lot of parties find this extremely important.
Bard's and Corsairs can Sleep monsters too, so if you get too many you can save your party from certain doom by making them sleep.
They are the ultimate support jobs, they make everything a well oiled machine.
As a FFXI player I see people shouting for a Corsair or a Bard all the time, its certainly the most desired class for any party, you must have one or the other or the party is considered a waste by many people's standards.
So if all a class does is
A. Enhance others attributes and stats like their magic damage mp regen or their damage avoidance
B. Debuff monsters for instance Sleeping them or blinding them so they can't hit the tank.
What is it? A tank? A healer? a DPS?
Its a support class.
the 4th class type.
WOW.... You just did it agian, completely danced around everything he was saying. You mentioned it but then went on a full spill about how useful a buffer can be.
The real meaning to his post was this. YOU DO NOT NEED A BUFFER IN YOUR PARTY PERIOD...... (This is where your statement was incorrect.)
You have the trinity, and that is all you need.
Tank - check
DPS - check
Healer - check
Buffer - Nice to have but really do not need to achieve what we want
Ok let the fight begin.
Sigh I give up.
There are a lot of encounters in FFXI you CANNOT DO without a Bard.
Which is a PURE support class.
What does that mean? Its a valid 4th class that is needed in this game to complete objectives.
That isn't true at all.
Tell me one thing in FFXI you can't do without a bard, and I will login, get the Linkshell to do it without a bard, make you a MOVIE showing you it can be done without the bard and post it for you.
Seriously I will, cause there is nothing in that game that can't be done without that class.
Look I can see this going no where for hours, let me just make this simple for you.
You need a support class in FFXI, always do.
Say you get rid of the bard or corsair, who will do the refreshing? The red mage? So then he will full time Refresh and Haste everyone, would that not make him a full support class/role?
You can't get around not having support in FFXI.
That being said, why is its "necessity" important to the debate at all? If a class CAN function as a FULL SUPPORT role then does that not prove that the role exists?
Bottom line, I dare any game to make a game without a tank, without a healer and without a dps. Take out the whole concept of "threat". Take out the idea that creatures are so stupid they concentrate on one party member while others heal, and do damage to it.
Give PCs special abilities that do not equate in statistical damage and statistical healing.
In what single player rpg are enemies as stupid as they are in MMOs?
Again I say, you can play just about every mmo on the market the exact same way. Even the FPS genre continues to make changes and inovations every year.
To your point I agree, I don't think its possible to avoid having tanks healers and dps in a game unless you make everyone able to do all those things. Then people would just play their role situationally with someone healing someone else sometimes and them going back to damage dealing, like UO.
If a game did not have threat on NPCs then I think it would be a bit more like an FPS with bots, I'm not sure what sort of threat you could use that would make the AI feel "smarter"
I understand the frustration at the AI feeling simplistic I just don't see what you want the monsters to do, always attack the healer because thats what a player would do? That would be rough >,<
The way I see it the holy trinity issue can be explained quite simply as there are only three direct roles :
Tank
Dps
Healer
Anyone else is indirectly facilitating those roles.
A bard or other buffer is facilitating the other three roles to do their jobs better. The player may be doing something differently to the other three, but his contribution to the group ultimately translates to better tanking, healing or dps from the group as a whole.
There is also the role of power battery. Details on the MP system for XIV has suggested that there will be a class dedicated entirely to MP restoration in parties. This can, again, be seen as a role that merely facilitates the others. The battery supplies MP to the other players so they can use their skills less conservatively, improving their effectiveness in the battle, the battery player having no direct effect on the target.
The only other distinct role I can think of is CC and this one is very distinct from other classes as their role does not enhance the others, they control the battle as a means of defense to prevent the group being overwhelmed. No game necessitates their use, however, as what they do in current MMOs is merely make things easier. Devs seem reluctant to make encounters that require such CC to the extent that a group would meet certain death without one.
The problem is we can never really get around this problem. There are only two options. Either invent new roles that play an active part in bringing down an enemy or remove the roles altogether.
A new role I can think of would be adding a class whose role is to make an enemy vulnerable to normal attacks (i.e. give mobs an armour bar above their health bar, one class damages armour, then the others can damage health). That would make a 4th role and break the trinity. It would also make groups harder to form as necessary roles become more and more specific and complex.
The other route would be to remove roles. Scrap tanking abilities and you'd break the trinity. Scrap the aggro concept and you'd break the trinity. But of course now group play would be much less complex and as a result group coordination is lost.
The trinity exists to force group coordination as much as grouping used to exist to force socialisation. It's a fundamental concept of the MMO and something that can't really be changed without scrapping the DnD foundation that the genre is built upon. The chances of us seeing a dev willing to do that, however, are next to nonexistant as everyone's too scared to take risks.
A lot of people are blowing the whole trinity argument out of context.
SE said they're going to try to stay away from a reliance on the whole trinity in MMO's but they havn't said they're going to scrap it all together.
In games like WoW, you NEED a tank, dps, healer for every encounter. You need people to specialize in purely tanking, dps, and healing to "beat" the encounter. Maybe, when SE says they want to stay away from the trinity, they mean they want to diminish the important of hyper-specialized roles.
For example, in FFXI you had the Paladin as the MT (ninja was by accident, never designed to be a tank), whereby, in a party 90% of your roll, if not 100% was about holding agro and reducing incomming damage.
Maybe, just maybe, the gladiator in FFXIV is 60% tank and 40% damage dealer. Same for conjurer (healer/damage dealer). I think SE meant that they don't want a hyper reliance on specialized classes. The want the "classes" to feel fluid instead of rigid.
Most of you are arguing semantics where in the end it doesn't matter.
Either way, the holy trinity hasn't been overdone yet. Even if the basics are the same, the mechanics can differ greatly.
Like in XIV, position and direction has an important role in battle. There are "battle regimen" that queue up skills with other players and unleash them in a rapid succession. There are reactive elements to battle- when enemy misses, you can unleash a counter attack to generate enmity. Some classes boost their abilities by standing in one spot, which can be tricky to master because if the mobs move the skills will do less damage.
It's not something completely revolutionary, but it sounds fun and refreshing. I think that's the most important thing.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Bards in FFXI don't just sit around playing flutes in battle they do other things. It carries a weapon doesn't it?
FFXI class/class is a bad way to start an argument because no matter what, the secondary class you use is going to direct for some tank, heal, or dps aspect.
Some games have a 4th also. The trinity though is still present.
DAoC is a prime example, DAoC has some classes that it's main prupose is CC and Buffing. Like a Shaman for instance if you go the buff line in Shaman you are pretty useless outside of buffs, you can heal but not very well, and forget about great DPS. You would be a buffer.
Being a Buffer aside, that game also suffers from tank, healer, dps trinity. It is present, they just added an extra dimension to it for pvp sake.
Let me walk you through what a bard does.
A bard MIGHT be the puller, a puller runs in and tags a monster and runs back to his party where the tank taunts it.
Once the tank has the monster the bard starts playing a song for the melee DPS, perhaps accuracy or attack damage.
Then the Bard will go and play songs for the ranged DPS / Healers, perhaps MP regen.
Then the monster will be dead, the bard will either A. pull another or B. wait for whoever else is pulling to pull another.
They never cause damage to the monster, or heal any one, or tank the monster.
So no, they don't use their weapon.
Edit: Sure FFXI has the trinity in it, however it does have classes that in certain parties are JUST the buffer, they don't heal or do damage or tank. That means that it "escaped" the holy trinity in my book, it has 4 class roles, thats a Quadrinity or something.
Yeah FFXI has the Trinity but like you said it goes beyond that. There are buffers and there can be debuffers or enfeebers. There is a lot of flexability in FFXI job system because of the subjobs. Yes a blm may not be a healing job but they can do back up and also can enfeeb with whm sub. Just like a whm isn't that good at DD but yet they do have spells to deal dmg and also can enfeeb. RDM is just a crazy mix of everything. Monks can tank early on but also deal awesome dmg. Drgs deal dmg but if you sub whm you can also be a backup healer because of spells and wyvern heals.
Yes all their main roles are Tank/Healer/DPS/Buff/Enfeeb but they can also do other things pretty decently if you do the right subjob. I don't think there will ever be a game where it doesn't have Holy Trinity. Even with games that are skill based like DF people still make HT builds. Lets face it, it works like a well oiled machine and also WTF else would you replace it with?
I would never play a game where you could do everything well. For one, things would get confusing. Wasting MP with everyone trying to heal 1 person, or everyone using a taunt ability all at once and then someone is low on health nobody else can use it. It would just be total chaos. You could just assign roles for people but people would bitch and complain about having to do something. Plus it would be pointless to be able to do everything well if you're just going to be given a HT job. Thats why I say just let people pick their jobs in the first place.
But the great thing about FFXI was you could change jobs but keep the same character so if you didn't feel like being stuck playing that one role just change jobs and your set. No need to worry about making an alt telling people this is your alt.
Say I'm a Bard and I have some cure spells, and I can heal some, but mostly I do buffer things. I'm a healer?
Ok so now I'm a warrior with some heal spells, I can heal some, but mostly I do damage things. I'm a healer? of course not.
So why do things that are MOSTLY support and only a little bit of something else, get counted as the something else.
Does not make sense to me.
What do you do as abard that is so important to the battle. Essentially, take out the "tank" does the group still battle, do they have a chance of winning the battle. Take out the healer... take out the dps... ok now take out the buffer. Even without the buffer it can still battle. All a buffer does is increase the attack, damage and healing abilities. It does nothing else that make it unique, makes it stand on its own. It's the waterboy of the MMO world.
Many parties in FFXI won't even start until you have a bard or a Corsair.
Why? MP refresh, if you don't have you don't have your MP going up without sitting parties are a lot slower, and then your exp per hour is really low. People want exp fast!
They are not NEEDED but everyone WANTS them, they make it so you destroy monsters a lot quicker and your tank is a lot safer and your DPS never misses ect.
Corsair has an ability that increases the EXP you get per kill too, a lot of parties find this extremely important.
Bard's and Corsairs can Sleep monsters too, so if you get too many you can save your party from certain doom by making them sleep.
They are the ultimate support jobs, they make everything a well oiled machine.
As a FFXI player I see people shouting for a Corsair or a Bard all the time, its certainly the most desired class for any party, you must have one or the other or the party is considered a waste by many people's standards.
So if all a class does is
A. Enhance others attributes and stats like their magic damage mp regen or their damage avoidance
B. Debuff monsters for instance Sleeping them or blinding them so they can't hit the tank.
What is it? A tank? A healer? a DPS?
Its a support class.
the 4th class type.
WOW.... You just did it agian, completely danced around everything he was saying. You mentioned it but then went on a full spill about how useful a buffer can be.
The real meaning to his post was this. YOU DO NOT NEED A BUFFER IN YOUR PARTY PERIOD...... (This is where your statement was incorrect.)
You have the trinity, and that is all you need.
Tank - check
DPS - check
Healer - check
Buffer - Nice to have but really do not need to achieve what we want
Ok let the fight begin.
Sigh I give up.
There are a lot of encounters in FFXI you CANNOT DO without a Bard.
Which is a PURE support class.
What does that mean? Its a valid 4th class that is needed in this game to complete objectives.
That isn't true at all.
Tell me one thing in FFXI you can't do without a bard, and I will login, get the Linkshell to do it without a bard, make you a MOVIE showing you it can be done without the bard and post it for you.
Seriously I will, cause there is nothing in that game that can't be done without that class.
Now I am seriously going h ome from work, I will fire up some fraps, just let me know what you wanna see done without a bard.
The way I see it the holy trinity issue can be explained quite simply as there are only three direct roles :
Tank
Dps
Healer
Anyone else is indirectly facilitating those roles.
A bard or other buffer is facilitating the other three roles to do their jobs better. The player may be doing something differently to the other three, but his contribution to the group ultimately translates to better tanking, healing or dps from the group as a whole.
There is also the role of power battery. Details on the MP system for XIV has suggested that there will be a class dedicated entirely to MP restoration in parties. This can, again, be seen as a role that merely facilitates the others. The battery supplies MP to the other players so they can use their skills less conservatively, improving their effectiveness in the battle, the battery player having no direct effect on the target.
The only other distinct role I can think of is CC and this one is very distinct from other classes as their role does not enhance the others, they control the battle as a means of defense to prevent the group being overwhelmed. No game necessitates their use, however, as what they do in current MMOs is merely make things easier. Devs seem reluctant to make encounters that require such CC to the extent that a group would meet certain death without one.
The problem is we can never really get around this problem. There are only two options. Either invent new roles that play an active part in bringing down an enemy or remove the roles altogether.
A new role I can think of would be adding a class whose role is to make an enemy vulnerable to normal attacks (i.e. give mobs an armour bar above their health bar, one class damages armour, then the others can damage health). That would make a 4th role and break the trinity. It would also make groups harder to form as necessary roles become more and more specific and complex.
The other route would be to remove roles. Scrap tanking abilities and you'd break the trinity. Scrap the aggro concept and you'd break the trinity. But of course now group play would be much less complex and as a result group coordination is lost.
The trinity exists to force group coordination as much as grouping used to exist to force socialisation. It's a fundamental concept of the MMO and something that can't really be changed without scrapping the DnD foundation that the genre is built upon. The chances of us seeing a dev willing to do that, however, are next to nonexistant as everyone's too scared to take risks.
I disagree. It can and has been done in countless single player rpgs. Game makers just need to get away from "damage" being the only option for attack. Instituting status effects, targeting systems and environmental manipulation can really change what we consider MMO. Instead of forcing group coordination, I find that it instead stands in the way. HOw many times do you want to play with your friends and you can't because no ones a tank, or no ones a healer or no ones a dps. All of a sudden the dungeon becomes impossible to get through.
The thing is, the DND foundation is not built on a holy trinity. There are no "tanks" in D&D. In D$D you you have the holy quad (lol adapting). You have the Warrior, the guy who both takes the most damage & deals the most damage. You have the cleric, who bufffs, heals and deals the most damage to undead. You have the rogue, who disarms traps, gets through social situations the best and utilizes crafty means to obtain goals. Then you have the wizard, who manipluates the battlefield. Sometimes with damage, but most of the time with spells to disrupt the enemies.
What's missing is situations that do not require killing, healing or being hit.
It was at a recent gaming conference where someone said that we are going to stop seeing inovation in games if small developers are not allowed to create new IP. No ones taking risks anymore. Everyones seeing the blue print (and es wow didn't start it but they perfected the model) and just copying it, tacking on IP to
I love Final Fantasy.. I've played the entire series including a couple years of FFXI... I'm checking out FFXIV and I find myself saying WTF?! Now don't get me wrong.. I love the universe of FF, who doesnt? But at the same time.. i reserve the right to share my opinion.. so I got a couple bones to pick... and I wanna know if I'm the only one..
Bone number 1- Pick up the frackin pace!! If you're a veteran of FFXI then you know it takes 30 real time days to raise a chocobo... no matter how often you play, thats how long it takes.. This felt to me like a blatant attempt at making me pay for more months of play. I dont mind paying a monthly subscription fee at all, but I'm not going to pay to wait. Give me enough content to want to continue playing instead of giving me wait times that are so long I have to pay for another month. It's actually kind of sad, it seems that everything from the combat, to the 'rest' or 'heal' time between combat, the pace of movement, it's all been slowed down so that EVERYTHING takes extra long. I get that as an MMO company you want as much monthly subscribers as possible, but I think this is a poor choice in ways to get it done, and I won't be paying monthly for FF14 if they do things the same way. I'm not saying the combat should be super fast paced (ie Champions Online) but do I think I should wait whole months for a part of the game I've already paid for? Nah, won't do it.
Bone number 2- You guys are seriously using the same played out races? Everyone I discuss this with say oh well they're using the same races because they want FF11 players to be able to migrate to FF14 and feel more comfortable and familiar with the game. Firstly, the same races aren't going to get that done because a race is just a skin, if you paint a taru pink it's still a taru, it'll still move the same no matter what it looks like. Furthermore, Are you frackin kidding me?! Final Fantasy.. the series known for never having the same mythos in any sequel, and they were concerned FF fans wouldn't like something new? It's a joke, it's cut corners and I'm very disappointed. Don't get me wrong, most of FF11's races were cool..(I always thought elvaan looked like a bunch of tards), but to not create new races is just a way to cut creative corners and it shocked me.
Now I know I'm gonna get a million replies saying "well then dont play the game" to which i reply depending on how the trial treats me, I just might not.. but this isnt about whether or not I play the game.. this is about a franchise that I love, and bad choices made by a developer that particularly bother me. And I'm entitled to my opinion.. I just wanna know what other people think.....
I played FFXI for a good while and I'm not happy to see how similar it is to that game. I want an entirely new experience.
Say I'm a Bard and I have some cure spells, and I can heal some, but mostly I do buffer things. I'm a healer?
Ok so now I'm a warrior with some heal spells, I can heal some, but mostly I do damage things. I'm a healer? of course not.
So why do things that are MOSTLY support and only a little bit of something else, get counted as the something else.
Does not make sense to me.
What do you do as abard that is so important to the battle. Essentially, take out the "tank" does the group still battle, do they have a chance of winning the battle. Take out the healer... take out the dps... ok now take out the buffer. Even without the buffer it can still battle. All a buffer does is increase the attack, damage and healing abilities. It does nothing else that make it unique, makes it stand on its own. It's the waterboy of the MMO world.
Many parties in FFXI won't even start until you have a bard or a Corsair.
Why? MP refresh, if you don't have you don't have your MP going up without sitting parties are a lot slower, and then your exp per hour is really low. People want exp fast!
They are not NEEDED but everyone WANTS them, they make it so you destroy monsters a lot quicker and your tank is a lot safer and your DPS never misses ect.
Corsair has an ability that increases the EXP you get per kill too, a lot of parties find this extremely important.
Bard's and Corsairs can Sleep monsters too, so if you get too many you can save your party from certain doom by making them sleep.
They are the ultimate support jobs, they make everything a well oiled machine.
As a FFXI player I see people shouting for a Corsair or a Bard all the time, its certainly the most desired class for any party, you must have one or the other or the party is considered a waste by many people's standards.
So if all a class does is
A. Enhance others attributes and stats like their magic damage mp regen or their damage avoidance
B. Debuff monsters for instance Sleeping them or blinding them so they can't hit the tank.
What is it? A tank? A healer? a DPS?
Its a support class.
the 4th class type.
WOW.... You just did it agian, completely danced around everything he was saying. You mentioned it but then went on a full spill about how useful a buffer can be.
The real meaning to his post was this. YOU DO NOT NEED A BUFFER IN YOUR PARTY PERIOD...... (This is where your statement was incorrect.)
You have the trinity, and that is all you need.
Tank - check
DPS - check
Healer - check
Buffer - Nice to have but really do not need to achieve what we want
Ok let the fight begin.
Sigh I give up.
There are a lot of encounters in FFXI you CANNOT DO without a Bard.
Which is a PURE support class.
What does that mean? Its a valid 4th class that is needed in this game to complete objectives.
That isn't true at all.
Tell me one thing in FFXI you can't do without a bard, and I will login, get the Linkshell to do it without a bard, make you a MOVIE showing you it can be done without the bard and post it for you.
Seriously I will, cause there is nothing in that game that can't be done without that class.
Look I can see this going no where for hours, let me just make this simple for you.
You need a support class in FFXI, always do.
Say you get rid of the bard or corsair, who will do the refreshing? The red mage? So then he will full time Refresh and Haste everyone, would that not make him a full support class/role?
You can't get around not having support in FFXI.
That being said, why is its "necessity" important to the debate at all? If a class CAN function as a FULL SUPPORT role then does that not prove that the role exists?
If I could jump in on the debate with my two cents...
I agree with some points both of you make and disagree with some points both of you make.
With that being said, my understanding of "The Holy Trinity" is if a Tank, Dedicated Healer and DD are a necessity. And in all honesty, I consider FFXI to be the very definition of a Holy Trinity game (not that that's a bad thing).
I don't play WoW but some friends do and they told me that nowadays for certain raids, every single class is given an ability that is essential. I don't think a game system like that is very clever or hard to design and I don't think that "breaks" the Trinity since a Healer, Tank and DD are still required. As I said before, the trinity is defined by the fact that a Tank, Dedicated Healer and DD are a necessity.
A clever system is one where no specific class is required for success, not a game where multiple classes are required. A game that doesn't require a Tank or dedicated Healer for the party to be successful is one that breaks the Holy Trinity. Would that be a fun game though? I have no idea...
Having said that, I'm not so sure that FF XIV will require the Holy Trinity. If you can play the game without needing a dedicated healer (since classes can heal themselves) or a dedicated Tank (to take all the attacks), then yes, FF XIV would have broken "The Holy Trinity". Plus, add in the fact that it will be party vs party encounters, you could have mobs attacking different party members at the same time instead of just one mob beating on the Tank. What if the Taunt abilities only work on one enemy and are not AOE? The game could be a lot different than previous MMOs.
Comments
It is not an Oxymoron, and my feelings are fine sir, I was merely pointing out there is no need to make personal statements.
A trinity is made up of 3 things, hence the prefix Tri.
When you admit yourself there are 4 roles in some games, DAOC included, which I also played as a Warden, then that is not a Trinity is it?
4 class types. I don't understand where you are confused.
You just really do not get it......
A Paladin can TANK and HEAL.
In FFXI it is primary used as a TANK but also it can heal. It really doesn't matter what you call it, a tank or a healer it's in the trinity which is the basis to this conversation.
By your example a wizard who can heal wouldn't be called a healer...
Yeah if he joined the party to DPS we would call him a DPS, but let's say half way through stuff started getting thick and he had to fall back and heal some. He is now a healer. Still doesn't matter though because if he is a dps wizard or a healer wizard he is still in the trinity. This was the original point.
You are the only person I have ever seen that tried to argue the trinity point. Most people just drop it because you can't argue the trinity point. It is always there. It will always be there.
Despite what SE says they are avoiding it will be there.
Yeah!!! There should be different races in every FF like in FFVII there are Humans and in FFVIII there are Humans and in FFX there are Humans and in FFXIII there are Humans and in FFI-VI there are Humans.
"Oh, other MMO's can get away with having only one race or existing races, but SE should create everything from the ground up for every game they make."
High expectations ya'll have.
Because you are the one confused.
This is the trinity of gaming.
TANK -> DPS -> HEALER
It is present in everything.
Some games have the trinity.
TANK -> DPS -> HEALER and way over here as a + BUFFER
Look at it.
Trinity. & Trinity + buffer.
Trinity still there, trinity still present. Buffer doesn't go into the trinity. It is an outside group.
Like Paper, Rock, Scissor, Mushroom.
EDIT - And now I am just going to get off work and go home and shake my head. No point arguing with a FF Fan. They see nothing, hear nothing, and say nothing except what they want. Everything else is meaningless regardless if it is right or wrong. Do me a favor though, head over to the general forum, not the FFXIV forum, and ask normal people to name a game that the trinity in NOT present aside from EVE Online. I think you are going to be met with a lot of people trying to explain the same thing to you that I am.
Many parties in FFXI won't even start until you have a bard or a Corsair.
Why? MP refresh, if you don't have you don't have your MP going up without sitting parties are a lot slower, and then your exp per hour is really low. People want exp fast!
They are not NEEDED but everyone WANTS them, they make it so you destroy monsters a lot quicker and your tank is a lot safer and your DPS never misses ect.
Corsair has an ability that increases the EXP you get per kill too, a lot of parties find this extremely important.
Bard's and Corsairs can Sleep monsters too, so if you get too many you can save your party from certain doom by making them sleep.
They are the ultimate support jobs, they make everything a well oiled machine.
As a FFXI player I see people shouting for a Corsair or a Bard all the time, its certainly the most desired class for any party, you must have one or the other or the party is considered a waste by many people's standards.
So if all a class does is
A. Enhance others attributes and stats like their magic damage mp regen or their damage avoidance
B. Debuff monsters for instance Sleeping them or blinding them so they can't hit the tank.
What is it? A tank? A healer? a DPS?
Its a support class.
the 4th class type.
If you cannot complete or overcome certain situations in a game without a buffer class being present in the group then that trinity is broken. No longer being 3.
Alright, there will be holy trinity in FFXIV. Deal with it. Or persuade SE to change it. Good luck with that.
WOW.... You just did it agian, completely danced around everything he was saying. You mentioned it but then went on a full spill about how useful a buffer can be.
The real meaning to his post was this. YOU DO NOT NEED A BUFFER IN YOUR PARTY PERIOD......
You have the trinity, and that is all you need.
Tank - check
DPS - check
Healer - check
Buffer - Nice to have but really do not need to achieve what we want
Ok let the fight begin.
Sigh I give up.
There is not one game where a buffer makes or breaks a trinity group. They are nice to have, but never ever for any reason required to have.
Trinity classes though are ALWAYS a must.
There are a lot of encounters in FFXI you CANNOT DO without a Bard.
Which is a PURE support class.
What does that mean? Its a valid 4th class that is needed in this game to complete objectives.
That isn't true at all.
Tell me one thing in FFXI you can't do without a bard, and I will login, get the Linkshell to do it without a bard, make you a MOVIE showing you it can be done without the bard and post it for you.
Seriously I will, cause there is nothing in that game that can't be done without that class.
Now I am seriously going h ome from work, I will fire up some fraps, just let me know what you wanna see done without a bard.
I never denied that the trinity classes are always needed. My point is that there are some encounters in games where you cannot make it through unless you have a particular "support" class present in your group. If that is so even if it id only for a few encounters. That would make this trinity void because it would be 4 classes.
Bottom line, I dare any game to make a game without a tank, without a healer and without a dps. Take out the whole concept of "threat". Take out the idea that creatures are so stupid they concentrate on one party member while others heal, and do damage to it.
Give PCs special abilities that do not equate in statistical damage and statistical healing.
In what single player rpg are enemies as stupid as they are in MMOs?
Again I say, you can play just about every mmo on the market the exact same way. Even the FPS genre continues to make changes and inovations every year.
Look I can see this going no where for hours, let me just make this simple for you.
You need a support class in FFXI, always do.
Say you get rid of the bard or corsair, who will do the refreshing? The red mage? So then he will full time Refresh and Haste everyone, would that not make him a full support class/role?
You can't get around not having support in FFXI.
That being said, why is its "necessity" important to the debate at all? If a class CAN function as a FULL SUPPORT role then does that not prove that the role exists?
To your point I agree, I don't think its possible to avoid having tanks healers and dps in a game unless you make everyone able to do all those things. Then people would just play their role situationally with someone healing someone else sometimes and them going back to damage dealing, like UO.
If a game did not have threat on NPCs then I think it would be a bit more like an FPS with bots, I'm not sure what sort of threat you could use that would make the AI feel "smarter"
I understand the frustration at the AI feeling simplistic I just don't see what you want the monsters to do, always attack the healer because thats what a player would do? That would be rough >,<
The way I see it the holy trinity issue can be explained quite simply as there are only three direct roles :
Tank
Dps
Healer
Anyone else is indirectly facilitating those roles.
A bard or other buffer is facilitating the other three roles to do their jobs better. The player may be doing something differently to the other three, but his contribution to the group ultimately translates to better tanking, healing or dps from the group as a whole.
There is also the role of power battery. Details on the MP system for XIV has suggested that there will be a class dedicated entirely to MP restoration in parties. This can, again, be seen as a role that merely facilitates the others. The battery supplies MP to the other players so they can use their skills less conservatively, improving their effectiveness in the battle, the battery player having no direct effect on the target.
The only other distinct role I can think of is CC and this one is very distinct from other classes as their role does not enhance the others, they control the battle as a means of defense to prevent the group being overwhelmed. No game necessitates their use, however, as what they do in current MMOs is merely make things easier. Devs seem reluctant to make encounters that require such CC to the extent that a group would meet certain death without one.
The problem is we can never really get around this problem. There are only two options. Either invent new roles that play an active part in bringing down an enemy or remove the roles altogether.
A new role I can think of would be adding a class whose role is to make an enemy vulnerable to normal attacks (i.e. give mobs an armour bar above their health bar, one class damages armour, then the others can damage health). That would make a 4th role and break the trinity. It would also make groups harder to form as necessary roles become more and more specific and complex.
The other route would be to remove roles. Scrap tanking abilities and you'd break the trinity. Scrap the aggro concept and you'd break the trinity. But of course now group play would be much less complex and as a result group coordination is lost.
The trinity exists to force group coordination as much as grouping used to exist to force socialisation. It's a fundamental concept of the MMO and something that can't really be changed without scrapping the DnD foundation that the genre is built upon. The chances of us seeing a dev willing to do that, however, are next to nonexistant as everyone's too scared to take risks.
sounds like we need an updated idea of the game
http://fashionablygeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/rock-paper-scissors-spock-lizard.jpg
maybe a pentagram instead of a trinity?
hehe.
A lot of people are blowing the whole trinity argument out of context.
SE said they're going to try to stay away from a reliance on the whole trinity in MMO's but they havn't said they're going to scrap it all together.
In games like WoW, you NEED a tank, dps, healer for every encounter. You need people to specialize in purely tanking, dps, and healing to "beat" the encounter. Maybe, when SE says they want to stay away from the trinity, they mean they want to diminish the important of hyper-specialized roles.
For example, in FFXI you had the Paladin as the MT (ninja was by accident, never designed to be a tank), whereby, in a party 90% of your roll, if not 100% was about holding agro and reducing incomming damage.
Maybe, just maybe, the gladiator in FFXIV is 60% tank and 40% damage dealer. Same for conjurer (healer/damage dealer). I think SE meant that they don't want a hyper reliance on specialized classes. The want the "classes" to feel fluid instead of rigid.
Most of you are arguing semantics where in the end it doesn't matter.
» Am i the only one saying WTF?
No
Generation P
Either way, the holy trinity hasn't been overdone yet. Even if the basics are the same, the mechanics can differ greatly.
Like in XIV, position and direction has an important role in battle. There are "battle regimen" that queue up skills with other players and unleash them in a rapid succession. There are reactive elements to battle- when enemy misses, you can unleash a counter attack to generate enmity. Some classes boost their abilities by standing in one spot, which can be tricky to master because if the mobs move the skills will do less damage.
It's not something completely revolutionary, but it sounds fun and refreshing. I think that's the most important thing.
Yeah FFXI has the Trinity but like you said it goes beyond that. There are buffers and there can be debuffers or enfeebers. There is a lot of flexability in FFXI job system because of the subjobs. Yes a blm may not be a healing job but they can do back up and also can enfeeb with whm sub. Just like a whm isn't that good at DD but yet they do have spells to deal dmg and also can enfeeb. RDM is just a crazy mix of everything. Monks can tank early on but also deal awesome dmg. Drgs deal dmg but if you sub whm you can also be a backup healer because of spells and wyvern heals.
Yes all their main roles are Tank/Healer/DPS/Buff/Enfeeb but they can also do other things pretty decently if you do the right subjob. I don't think there will ever be a game where it doesn't have Holy Trinity. Even with games that are skill based like DF people still make HT builds. Lets face it, it works like a well oiled machine and also WTF else would you replace it with?
I would never play a game where you could do everything well. For one, things would get confusing. Wasting MP with everyone trying to heal 1 person, or everyone using a taunt ability all at once and then someone is low on health nobody else can use it. It would just be total chaos. You could just assign roles for people but people would bitch and complain about having to do something. Plus it would be pointless to be able to do everything well if you're just going to be given a HT job. Thats why I say just let people pick their jobs in the first place.
But the great thing about FFXI was you could change jobs but keep the same character so if you didn't feel like being stuck playing that one role just change jobs and your set. No need to worry about making an alt telling people this is your alt.
I hate the pandarin brewmaster.
I disagree. It can and has been done in countless single player rpgs. Game makers just need to get away from "damage" being the only option for attack. Instituting status effects, targeting systems and environmental manipulation can really change what we consider MMO. Instead of forcing group coordination, I find that it instead stands in the way. HOw many times do you want to play with your friends and you can't because no ones a tank, or no ones a healer or no ones a dps. All of a sudden the dungeon becomes impossible to get through.
The thing is, the DND foundation is not built on a holy trinity. There are no "tanks" in D&D. In D$D you you have the holy quad (lol adapting). You have the Warrior, the guy who both takes the most damage & deals the most damage. You have the cleric, who bufffs, heals and deals the most damage to undead. You have the rogue, who disarms traps, gets through social situations the best and utilizes crafty means to obtain goals. Then you have the wizard, who manipluates the battlefield. Sometimes with damage, but most of the time with spells to disrupt the enemies.
What's missing is situations that do not require killing, healing or being hit.
It was at a recent gaming conference where someone said that we are going to stop seeing inovation in games if small developers are not allowed to create new IP. No ones taking risks anymore. Everyones seeing the blue print (and es wow didn't start it but they perfected the model) and just copying it, tacking on IP to
I played FFXI for a good while and I'm not happy to see how similar it is to that game. I want an entirely new experience.
If I could jump in on the debate with my two cents...
I agree with some points both of you make and disagree with some points both of you make.
With that being said, my understanding of "The Holy Trinity" is if a Tank, Dedicated Healer and DD are a necessity. And in all honesty, I consider FFXI to be the very definition of a Holy Trinity game (not that that's a bad thing).
I don't play WoW but some friends do and they told me that nowadays for certain raids, every single class is given an ability that is essential. I don't think a game system like that is very clever or hard to design and I don't think that "breaks" the Trinity since a Healer, Tank and DD are still required. As I said before, the trinity is defined by the fact that a Tank, Dedicated Healer and DD are a necessity.
A clever system is one where no specific class is required for success, not a game where multiple classes are required. A game that doesn't require a Tank or dedicated Healer for the party to be successful is one that breaks the Holy Trinity. Would that be a fun game though? I have no idea...
Having said that, I'm not so sure that FF XIV will require the Holy Trinity. If you can play the game without needing a dedicated healer (since classes can heal themselves) or a dedicated Tank (to take all the attacks), then yes, FF XIV would have broken "The Holy Trinity". Plus, add in the fact that it will be party vs party encounters, you could have mobs attacking different party members at the same time instead of just one mob beating on the Tank. What if the Taunt abilities only work on one enemy and are not AOE? The game could be a lot different than previous MMOs.
Only time will tell...