Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Casual killed the MMO game
Elladriel
Member Posts: 39
Exactly what the title says. I know that technically, these casuals are a necessary chunk of revenue for the industry, and the industry has grown because of them.
But still, I am nostalgically fond of elements such as death penalties and forced grouping. Having to walk 30 minutes to get to another town. Challenges that felt exclusive, or elite. You'd probably never be part of them, but it was neat to know that they existed in your game somewhere.
Before anyone mentions it, yes I played Darkfall. Not extensively, so feel free to call me ignorant. But part of what hurts for me is that by design I should LOVE Darkfall. It theoretically has everything I miss in classic MMORPGs. Yet I have become so conditioned to the industry standard that I fear I will only ever enjoy games like Darkfall in nostalgic memory.
I'll admit I played WoW, and loved it for years. The change to casual has crept slowly and silently though throughout the industry, and I find myself awakening to a world of facebook games and F2P. Now all I see when I look at games like WoW or its many clones is user wish fufilment. Everybody is easily powerful, able to tackle any problem without much hardship, or "earning" it. Yes, in some games they already pay money to play, so shouldn't they get a reward?
Games shouldn't just be a reward system. Games are meant to challenge us to be better at something (strategy, athleticism, etc.) in order to win, or be "the best". An increasing number of MMO companies these days take your $15/month and hand everyone a 1st place ribbon.
Good business? Certainly. I'm not arguing it isn't. I'm just a hopeless romantic, nostalgic about a genre that used to mean something more.
And I know that I'm not alone, either. /endrant
Comments
Actually its the other way around. Casuals keep MMO alive and thats where the profit is.
Lol. Way to read past the title champ
There are some things I do miss about the older games. But over time I have been spoiled by the newer MMOs, I like being able to just log in and out of the games as I please and still be able to progress. Some of the changes made have really made my gaming life a lot easier and accessable. I am getting older and I really value my time so I am all for a more casual and less committed side when it comes to games.
What Shastra said is pretty dead on. (:
In theory I like the old school stuff too. I always comment about how travel should be more epic and take a longer time...but then in practice when it takes me more than a few minutes ot get anywhere I start getting a bit pissed. We have been reconditioned, sadly.
What Shastra said is true, but I recognize that in the opening of my post.
It is interesting, isn't it? This slow creeping of casual into us all. You said it well - we are "spoiled" by the newer games. Surely times change and we must change with them. I just worry that the industry is losing any possible meaning it once had. The "magic" is fading.
Haha, masochistic? That's interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way. I suppose so. I don't even consider myself a true vet (only been around since Ragnarok/Final Fantasy XI).
Yes, I clealry believe myself to be master of everything that matters. I am so arrogant :P
It's nostalgia. I know things have changed and will never be the same. I accept that. A part of me is merely saddened, and I'm just curious who else feels this way, and what their insights into the industry are.
Haha. I get what you're going for and it is quite amusing to think of it that way.
I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone would argue against the added convenience of the modern automobile industry. There is a difference between entertainment and transportation though.
For one, there is no personal risk of us "crashing" and dying in an MMO. Cars improving the way they did makes sense, and is good.
Entertainment is a little different. Better graphics? Good. Better sound? Good. All of this builds towards immersion. Yes, even walking to the next city builds immersion.
What we see happening now is a shift from immersion to practicality in the genre. It is practical to cater to the casual player, as Shasta said: that's where the profit is. And what a casual wants is easymode.
The apparent cost of which is immersion. Being nostalgic about the immersion factor is what I was getting at.
If anything, old MMO's had some really stupid aspects to them, and we're finally getting around to fixing them. To use your example, if a game can't find something better than walking for me to spend 30 minutes doing, I'm sure I can come up with a few ideas that DON'T involve that particular game. As the MMO market looks for new subscribers, it's getting harder and harder to find people willing to put up with the traditional BS, so companies are forced to fix those parts or die. I'm bloody tired of people trying to claim that a game requiring you to spend days doing something that a basic AutoIt program could manage, somehow equates to "Difficulty" and requires "Skill". And I'm sick of MMO's using mindless grinding as a substitute for actual content. And while I'll agree that the challenge factor has generally been dropping (on average, anyway), it's overall still been a net improvement. Lots of room for improvement still, but no call for the doom and gloom.
Kind of like when I talk to someone who misses the "good old days" of cars that didn't have fuel injection or A/C. If you endured, congratulations. I did my time too. Doesn't mean I have any particular hankering to go back to those days.
A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs:
That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.
Casual keeps the companies funded, but the experience simple. Companies try to appeal to all and, in doing so, forget what is difficult and what isn't.
I want the deep story line, the often grueling attunements to enter a dungeon, and the bosses that take a month of challenge to defeat. Sorry to use this game as an example, but WoW is prime. It has just been made casual. It's as simple as that. It's still a good game, and successful. But it doesn't appeal to the "hardcore" MMO vets that constantly need challenges.
Rather than throw a boring quantity of content at us, why not a fun, difficult, sometimes frustrating, quality of content?
Of course, for the people who come home and play for 30 minutes before going to sleep, this game would prove impossible to immerse oneself into. Which brings the problem of company funding... There are more people who spend an hour a day than 8+ hours a day on video games..
Meh. Designers just need to add some actual tough encounters that provide something that distinguishes the people that complete it. Appearance gear would probably be the best way to handle this.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Thanks everyone for your opinions so far.
I really need to clarify something here though.
I miss the immersion of older games. This was achieved using now-archaic principles such as walking long distances, or forced grouping which built up the community of a game. I don't miss the specific principles themselves, for their own sakes.
By streamlining the content in MMOs, many games have become in essence linear. While I haven't played since the patch that added instance-queuing into WoW, apparently many groups don't even talk to each other anymore. They just get placed into a dungeon and smack stuff for 20-30 minutes, get their loot and gtfo.
These are the new principles of gaming. And yes, I do maintain that they kill immersion. What the value of immersion is though, is up for debate. I value it highly. I think it was the spark of magic of our first MMO, playing with all these people in a persistent world, overcoming challenges, etc.
Who needs a challenge when all we're looking for is fun fun fun!
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
People don't want immersion anymore, they want fun and they want it now.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Challenge is fun! Immersion makes the challenge even more fun, even to repeat! It occurs to me now that some people don't like challenge..
And I fear that's the answer to my thread, and a sign of things to come in the future of this industry.
I dont know what you all are talking about immersion. I feel very immersed in EVE, I felt it in lotro, and I feel it moderately in Ryzom. To me its a case of "nothing to see here, move along".
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Elladriel, I understand what you mean and I feel your pain, however, I must say that I welcome the casual play style. I've been around since the Everquest 1 days so I've been around the block once or twice. However, I find that I don't have as much play time as I used to in my younger years. Casual gaming alows me to play a game with limited play time and still find accomplishment. As time goes on we see improved graphics and sound which provides for more immersion though it cannot replace what you long for. I understand and that's why I look to single player games to get that immersion. If you haven't played Dragon Age; I highly recommend it. It doesn't get much more immersive than that.
I now look to MMO's for more social and exploration aspects. They're still fun to play even if they are missing that "spark". And who knows; we may yet see a new game with an old school essence spring to life in the future. Times change, trends change. People may tire of this play style and long for more "substance" yet again.
Have to agree Casuals are the bane of MMOs. They want everything fast, easy and without challenge or thought. They spend more time on message boards than in game. All MMOs are made for them and cater only to them. MMO's now outside some raiding have almost zero challenge. Mob fights have been dumbed down for the worst of the casual players. Leveling time is non-existant. No death penalties and no risk/reward. Effort, work and achievement is considerded a bad thing. Complex thoughtful game mechanics is to much for them. It's quite sad as for the most part they barely even play these games that are now made exclusively for them.
See, its not even the whole 'easy' thing that bugs me about todays MMOs.
What really bugs me is that they are just over too quickly. Not 'over' in the sense that you beat the game, 'over' in the sense that the game just goes by so fast between start and level cap. Then at level cap you just raid till a new raid comes out. There is nothing really left to do but raid.
In WoW you will often notice half your guild just goes AFK for a few weeks/months while waiting for the next content push to come out. And when that content does hit, its like the good old days for about 3 months tops and then it goes quiet again.
I see where a lot of 'vets' are coming from with thier nostalgia, but I think they are getting it wrong when they are trying to explain what made the 'good old days' good. It has nothing to do with massive time sinks or hair pulling death penalties (though sometimes a lil death penalty does help) or even near impossible raid bosses. I think the problem is that, with no matter how much content there is in newer MMOs, its just blown through way to quickly, even when you take your time.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Haha, thank you Emloch. You give me hope :P I'm actually on my way to play some more Dragon Age shortly. Love the game. Just wish things could be so immersive with multiple people.
One thought occured to me, as you speak of trends...
The arcade age in the early 80s was all about gameplay and accessibility. You could walk into an arcade, drop a few quarters and have some instant fun. As graphics and sound got better, and with the rise of home consoles over the years, the focus became immersion. Perhaps now that we have hit a wall with graphics and immersion, we're seeing a return to even older-school principles of gameplay and instant fun.
These things go in cycles. So maybe when 3D technology is cheaper or we get into Virtual Reality we'll see the rise of immersion gameplay once more!
The MMO industry was alive and well long before it went mainstream. Casuals breathed new life into it, but unnecessary life. It wasn't dying. One has only to look at the MMORPG roots to understand its longevity and sustained existence, is in no one thanks to casuals.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
That is an extremely interesting thought. I never really looked at things that way.
Growing up I absolutely adored Arcades, but being very casual style games, they had a very short term appeal. Maybe gamers will eventually tire of overly simplified MMOs, and perhaps the hunger for real challenge will return once again.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
*rolleyes* If "immersion" had to be sacrificed to provide "fun", that doesn't speak very highly of the "immersion".
A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs:
That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.
Meh, immersion is not in the game, its in the player. Or not, in this case.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
A year from now:
NewMMOUser235223: That Toquio3 guy enjoyed his 5min travel. I'm insta-porting everywhere. Dumbed down? Puh! FUN!
... there are some things that you might argue as being more 'fun' but in the process you lose meaning due to less investment. Be it an investment of challenge, time or whathaveyou, it's the investment that yields the dividends on the result.
Take world PvP for example: it comes about due to a conflict in geographic location. 'Give me instances so I can't get griefed by my own faction after doing all the work!' 'Give me flying mounts so I can get places faster!' 'Give me .. Give me .. Give me!' ... and as a result, a relic of spontaneity, of unexpectedness and the thrill that can result- gone. Everything comes at a cost. Sooner or later, the fun is gone from everywhere because there's no thrill in accomplishment, no excitement without suspense. We're using up the immersion reserve faster than we're replacing it.
I'm not that old school (2001 onwards) but I can embrace why increasingly more people, self-proclaimed casuals included, I've witnessed expressing feelings of chasing empty goals inside of a game. I'm not a fan of running 30min to get somewhere... just to run to get there. I would enjoy being able to have meaningful investment of that travel... pit stops that need to be made along the way, a game that doesn't encourage a pace of its playerbase being everywhere at all times...
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter