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Casual killed the MMO game
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I agree with that, but how are oldschool MMos or MMos considered hardcore not accessible for those people? What's stopping you from playing 1-2 hours? I know things take longer, but last time I checked there's no timer for how long you have to take getting max level or getting the best gear.
I don't care about achievements, but it's a good way to see that you're nothing but a troll that's BSing. You say you speak for experience, well achievements are there to vindicate yourself. You say the game is easy as pie because you've played it, well prove it. Stop whining like a child and deflecting and prove it. The fact of the matter is you're just a bad, inexperienced player and you're now backed into a corner because the anonymity of the internet can't help you troll any further because it's now possible to back your claims up. But you won't because you can't. You haven't played Lich King, and if you have it certainly isn't the hardcore stuff you claim takes a few minutes to complete. Trolls are supposed to incite anger, you're just inciting pity and laughter at your expense.
Downtime is the issue, example; FFXI
That's a wonderful game, but it used to be only accessable to hardcore players because of how long you had to rest in order to gain hp/mp, and even worse, how long to find a group to grind with. That game's only way of gaining XP (at the time) was grinding mobs at various difficulty ranges per level. Fighting something equal to you meant literally a 50/50 chance of getting handled, and then you have to sit and heal. That is why the only efficient way to play was by grouping against way harder mobs, but the class you chose, the amount of people in a zone's level range, and time of day that you play will affect your chances of finding a group. It could literally have taken hours to find a group, and if you're lucky enough, have it lose the healer or break up in less than half an hour.
No matter how much people complain about travel times and such, I could wait at the airship in FFXI and starports in SWG as long as I don't have to ever wait hours for a group in order to progress in some way. Hardcore...
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Why would I play it when it had achievments? When they let total newbies into the same zones as me? That's when I quit
The only achievment in WOW was doing BWL, AQ, and Naxx when 99% of the WoW "Casuals" in the game were wiping in Molten Core (which required the same time investment as any raid zone). Are there any achievments left after that? No.
Lich King is probably about as difficult as doing Naxx trash mobs.
NES 8bit if u want a challenge!
That's all I wanted to know, Captain Illiterate. You never played Lich King, hence your opinions are null and void. Thank you for clearing that up.
And yes I totally agree with the author! Theres no challenge nowadays! Every1 can reach highest lvl and get the best gear easily
The old Casual Vs. Hardcore (MMO Vets) again?
I'm not sure why some developer hasnt come up with the idea to please both. Have a HC server with long travel times, harsh death penalties, etc etc. and have another server that serves more casual players with shorter travel times, easier raids, etc etc.
Maybe if someone did this BS debate would stop. And we'd all be happy and stfu about this already.
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online
No lie there. I understand the difficulty of thsoe gamers were to make up for the relative shortness, but wtf has happened to games that kick your ass?! My kingdom for a new Master Blaster (thats worth a damn), Startropics, Faxanadu... oh damn, I got the fever!
*legs kicks uncontrollably*
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
What happened is we grew up. We don't have the time to fight a boss for the 50th time, and because we now have money we don't have to be forced to play crappy games with unfair challenges because we can buy a new one instead of waiting until birthday or Christmas.
Going from having a ton of time and little money as a kid to having a ton of money and little time as an adult has a pretty big effect on how games are made.
"Wahhhhh, you don't play a game design for casuals anymore, you can't criticize it without constanly playing"
WoW isn't becoming harder, it's becoming easier. Thats why theres only like 1 or 2 encounters (encounters, not RAID ZONEs) that the casuals haven't done. Before, bad players were 3 zones behind good ones.
You can stop crying that you've been found out a fraud and liar. Your humiliation is complete. You should be leaving as gracefully as you can. Instead, you continue to act like an immature buffoon hoping somebody would take heed to your embarrasing remarks. You're obsessively angry about a game you no longer play, and as a result you are providing us with entertainment at your expense. Kid, are you masochist or just clueless?
I think you two need to kiss and make up...
I don't want clown makeup on my face. But since your ready and willing, I won't stop you two from having a go.
Every MMO I've quit has been due to end game mechanics. I've never quit because the journey to end game was too casual. Always, that the end game completely changed the game, and grinding for gear isn't fun. No, I don't believe casual games have killed the genre. I think games that have come out with zero depth is what has doomed many of us. Or a game that has a fantastic leveling journey does a 180 degree turn once one is max level. At that point its all about running the same content over and over.
I've never waited longer than 20 minutes to find a group in FFXI... I did start in 2008 though so maybe it was different before. I was also on the most populated server. There was always stuff to do while waiting for a group, too. I did play other old MMos too and finding groups didn't take long either. It's not like oldschool MMoRPGers want stuff like long wait times for groups or long travel times(well personally I don't mind this, but most people probably do). Stuff like this should be fixed, but we want the good aspects that old/hardcore MMos had that new MMos don't have.
I think this was an excellent post and reflected much of the same sentiments that i've thought and felt over the last few years. I've been playing MMO's since EQ1 pre kunark! I don't think there is a major mmo that i haven't played. That said, i absolutely agree that the casual gamer mentality has slowly creeped into us all through a very subtle process over time in different games. I think it was really highlighted when WoW made its appearance. Its a shame. I wish that instead of making EQ easier and focusing on making the game easier to play, they should have made it more realistic.
I'm all for the 30 min walk to another town if it is OPTIONAL. If there is a reward for that journey then, Hell, i'm going. but when I'm FORCED to go to that town to get my new spells, or level up (and levels are stupid) then it is a pain in the ass and shouldn't be part of the game.
Great post OP.
BOld red text: Absolutely. I'm 100% on board with this statement. Depth, gameplay, meaning, rewards for actually doing SOMETHING significant are what make games good. EQ and other old school MMO's simulated this by forcing grouping and making stuff freaking difficult.
Have you played AoC? someone tell me why different skills matter at all in the early game... what about late game? Totally useless skills: you can button mash and get same results.
I'm a fan of the "everyone does it once" school of thought. You should have to trek to a new location for the first time, but every subsequent visit should have instant travel. Developers *want* people to explore their world, even if they have to force a little on you, but they defintiely don't want you to burnout during travel.
This is in-fact how the term "barrens chat" started, it was a long stretch of zone end-to-end, and the sheer travel time took it's toll on the mind of every feeb that's traversed it. At some point, you simply have to mouth off.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
The bigger problem is that when games were made more casual friendly, it means that instead of waiting for a spawn that only happens once every 10 hours, then the drop only occurs 1 in 4, and then you have to wait in line with the other 5 in the group to get the magical thingy. Thats the hardcore of EQ.
Now, TO GET THE SAME EXACT THINGY, you wait 20 minutes. All of her examples were of waiting 10 minutes for one thing, and an hour for something better. But thats not how how games have progressed, you get the same exact thing, only in half the time.
That's exactly my point. Increasing the time to do something in a game, especially MMOs, doesn't increase the complexity of what you're doing and adding depth to the experience. How is waiting in line for hours to kill a monster a more meaningful experience than waiting 5 minutes? It's not. You're doing the same thing without the wait, which far difference than her cooking analogy in which time is a requirement due to the added complexity of the meal.
The only thing I've seen people defend this experience is that it somehow creates a more social experience, but that's nonsense since waiting at the doctor's office for your name to be called is that same. Chit chatting with the guy next to you doesn't make the experience anymore rewarding. You're just finding reasons to not hang yourself from the celing fan out of boredom.
I see a great unnecessary divide... among our brood. There is not enough Preparation H in the world to soothe the amount of butthurt that has been caused by the evolution and profiteering of MMORPGs.
The solution is simple.... create a MMORPG that appeals to everyone, that combines the most talked about aspects the majority of players want into one game!
Shit... never mind that was WoW!
Well what about the self proclaimed "hardcoar"? Ok ok... I got a better idea. People talk about the "good old days" like with Everquest, or Ultima Online. How about instead of making a clone of a clone, just improve or add content to one of the older "Father" mmorpg's? Just build upon the original, make massive expansion packs on a timely basis, and charge a nominal fee....
Well fuck, I guess EQ and UO are still around... actually a great majority of MMO's are still around and that's what they do, so they could always go back to the root of the fun right? But ", they're all "WoWified", you say? I'm sure that if your loyalties were as strict to the actual video game as your nostalgia claims to be, you'd have been posting in THEIR forms spearheading the vocal minority against the dumbing down of your beloved game(s) instead of on a general forum. I see that didn't happen. So either one of two things occured. They (the people who made your beloved game) really could give a shit less about how you "feel" or what you "think" in the first place... or The Anti Christ New World Order of Racial Defamation and Slaughtering of Helpless Baby Pandas (aka Casuals) had nothing better to do than to bleed over into the MMO world and wreak havok on the world of MMORPGs.
You know... the sooner the masses awaken to reality, the sooner they'll realize that people who are labeled "causal" may not be a bad thing. One would think that spending 5-24 hours straight in front of a computer screen, says ones life is more "casual" than that of the masses that have "little" time to play a MMO but do so anyways.
But with all sincere due respect, the word "casual" didn't kill MMO's. Greed did, kiddos. Publishers don't give a shit about your feelings, or what you believe is hardcore OR casual alike. They care about how much of a profit they can make and increase their margins for stimulating that little reward center around with a video game. It's just like with every FAD that's ever existed, every genre of music and how the latest one is shit compared to "what WE listened to and called music BACK THEN" kind of lame ass comparison. To think it'd come to YOUR MMORPG's? Get the fuck over yourselves and wake up. Until then, grow up and stop pissing on each others shoes like it's a gamers fault that they ruined YOUR game because of how they want to play... a game. We're in it together and this whole "crips vs. bloods" mentality of "hardcore vs. casual" bullshit is old, especially when the primary goal we all have... is to just fucking have fun.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
One day MMORPGs will become like MUDs.
This means because of cheap bandwidth, and cheap WYSIWYG engines, anyone can make an MMORPG, just like a MUD, and there will be thousands and thousands of them.
you won't be able to even browse them all, there will be so many.
And they will be everything. some will give you 10,000 xp and 10,000 gold every time you swing your sword.
Some will be like the old EQ, hard and challenging, forced grouping, long travel times etc.
Some will be in the middle, some will be so bizarre they won't even make sense.
I can't see how this will not happen eventually, as bandwidth gets cheaper and cheaper, and game engines get easier and easier, and cheaper and cheaper.
People dont' need to defend it with anything more than they like it.
That should be enough, since it's a game.
You have never made a pot roast, I can tell. Or, if you had, despite what you may claim I know it turned out dry and tough.
You may not like her analogies but you can't invalidate the belief and the desired gameplay which they represent. Sure, you may not like it. That doesn't mean many other don't like it. That doesn't mean that many others don't consider it fun. It's just a different way to play. One is better for you, one is better for others. Neither is universally better else we'd all be agreeing on it. SInce that isn't the case it'd be nice if both play variants were offered in modern updated AAA games. That way you could go play your game and we could go play ours as opposed to going back and forth on a game forum.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez