Nine years ago, a great game, in whose symbolic shadow we stand was conceived.
This momentous game came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of players who had been seared in the flames of mediocrity.
It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of boredom.
But one hundred months later, we must face the tragic fact that the game does not deliver.
One hundred months later, the game is still sadly crippled by the manacles of grind and the chains of conservatism.
One hundred months later, the Player lives on a lonely island with noone around, in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity.
One hundred months later, the Player is still grinding in every corner of Agon and finds himself an exile in his own land.
So we have come here today to dramatize an appalling condition.
In a sense we have come to forumfall to cash a check.
When the architects of this game wrote the magnificent words of full loot warfare and the declaration of Playerskill,
they were signing a promissory note to which every Player was to fall heir.
This note was a promise that all players would be guaranteed the inalienable rights of pvp, no grind, and the pursuit of fun.
It is obvious today that Darkfall has defaulted on this promissory note insofar as it's citizens are concerned.
Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, Darkfall has given the players a bad check which has come back marked "insufficient funds."
But we refuse to believe that the bank of fun is bankrupt.
We refuse to believe that there are insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this game.
So we have come to cash this check -- a check that will give us upon demand the riches of no grind and the fun of pvp.
We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind Darkfall of the fierce urgency of now.
This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism.
Now is the time to rise from the dark and desolate valley of segregation through grind to the sunlit path of fun pvp.
Now is the time to open the doors of opportunity to all of Agon's children.
Now is the time to lift our game from the quicksands of it's own injustice to the solid rock of fun gameplay.
It would be fatal for the game to overlook the urgency of the moment and to underestimate the determination of the player.
This sweltering summer of the Player's legitimate discontent will not pass until there is an invigorating autumn of fixes and content.
Twothousand and ten is not an end, but a beginning.
Those who hope that the Player needed to blow off steam and will now be content will have a rude awakening if the game returns to business as usual.
There will be neither rest nor tranquility in Darkfall until the Player is granted his citizenship rights.
The whirlwinds of revolt will continue to shake the foundations of our game until the bright day of justice emerges.
But there is something that I must say to my people who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of PvP.
In the process of gaining our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds.
Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for PvP by drinking from the cup of grind and conservatism.
We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline.
We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into mindless flamefests.
Again and again we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting mindless flame with logic and rationale.
The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the community must not lead us to distrust of all veterans,
for many of our veteran brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny
and their fun is inextricably bound to our fun.
We cannot walk alone.
And as we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall march ahead.
We cannot turn back.
There are those who are asking the devotees of a grind free game, "When will you be satisfied?"
We can never be satisfied as long as our characters, heavy with the fatigue of grind,
cannot gain lodging in the cities of pvp and the bindslots of those cities.
We cannot be satisfied as long as the Player's basic mobility is from a smaller grind to a larger one.
We can never be satisfied as long as a Player in Shoal cannot pvp and a Player in Hintenfau believes he has nothing for which to pvp.
No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until patches roll down like waters and fixes like a mighty stream.
I am not unmindful that some of you have come here out of great trials and tribulations.
Some of you have come fresh from a three day ban.
Some of you have come from areas where your quest for pvp left you battered by the storms of coservative flames and staggered by the winds of veteran brutality.
You have been the veterans of creative suffering. Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive.
Go back to Shoal, go back to Red Moon, go back to Charybis, go back to Sanguine, go back to the goblins and trolls of our noob cities,
knowing that somehow this situation can and will be changed. Let us not wallow in the valley of despair.
I say to you today, my friends, that in spite of the difficulties and frustrations of the moment, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the Darkfall dream.
I have a dream that one day this game will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are able to pvp."
I have a dream that one day on the red hills of the Tribelands the twinks of former unsubbers and the toons of former vets will be able to fight each other.
I have a dream that one day even the state of Nagast, a desert state, sweltering with the heat of playerkilling and noobfarming, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and PvP.
I have a dream that my four twinks will one day live in a game where they will not be controlled by me anymore but by other, new players.
I have a dream today.
I have a dream that one day the state of Cairn, whose governor's lips are presently dripping with the words of interposition and nullification,
will be transformed into a situation where noobs will be able to join hands with vets and fight against each other as equals.
I have a dream today.
I have a dream that one day every fun shall be exalted, every grind shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight,
and the glory of the Makers shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together.
This is our hope. This is the faith with which I resub with. With this faith we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope.
With this faith we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our game into a beautiful symphony of warfare.
With this faith we will be able to work together, to fight together, to own together, to go red together, to stand up for pvp together, knowing that we will have fun one day.
This will be the day when all of Agon's children will be able to sing with a new meaning,
"My game, 'tis of thee, sweet land of pvp, of thee I sing. Land where my veterans died, land of the gamer's pride, from every mountainside, let playerskill ring."
And if Darkfall is to be a great game this must become true.
So let playerskill ring from the prodigious hilltops of Ymir's Tear.
Let playerskill ring from the mighty mountains of Flaming Skull.
Let playerskill ring from the heightening Alleghenies of The Middle!
Let playerskill ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Niflheim!
Let playerskill ring from the curvaceous peaks of Cairn!
But not only that; let playerskill ring from Stone Mountain of Rubayiat!
Let playerskill ring from Lookout Mountain of Yssam!
Let playerskill ring from every hill and every molehill of Sanguine. From every mountainside, let playerskill ring.
When we let playerskill ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every clan and every city,
we will be able to speed up that day when all of Agon's children, new players and old players, Crafters and Fighters, Clans and Solo Players,
will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Spiritual, "No Grind at last! No Grind at last! thank Aventurine Almighty, there is no grind at last!"
My first month's sub ending coincided with the april 1st patch problems. The changes do not indicate they are really aware that the grind is horrible, and the way the patch was implemented (without a test server, shutting down the game for a day and a half) overall gives me the impression that the game is basically being run by some guy and his buddies. They're making money so they're not motivated to make drastic changes.
I just can't motivate myself to pay 15 dollars to shoot trolls a thousand more times with spells just to start to try to catch up to people that have played the game for awhile and have a chance against them vs. playing mortal online beta for free.... I just can't find the motivation.
Maybe someone can give me a good reason to resub. Give it your best shot.
I like Darfall and MO, but they are both run by "a guy and their friends" the patching issues have been the same with MO. . this as during beta sure. . but how will this change later? It is the same guys with one server etc. I see this issue being more of a manpower / funding thing rather than a game specific thing.
This veteran elite is only logical to exist in a game like this, DFO is the mother of niche games and as such brings along players with more conservatism than Tories.
A year of such grind (I hear it was even worse before the exp) HAS to scramble your cognitive abilities and sensory perception and telling people that have been grinding since day one that the grind is absolutely horrible is like convincing Tasos to spend more money on advertising DFO.
thanks, but that would best be served by supporting said thread in forumfall before it get's torn apart by the conservative veteran elite.
Actually it's not only "veteran elite". There are a lot of grinders in every next MMORPG on the market who like to grind if reward is proper. In DFO reward is good so the game will always have this type of players. Plus add to them those who just like playing (almost living) in a fantastic emmersive world without being a super-duper ownah, and you'll get some numbers. Not as many as WoW but enough for AV guys to make living. And if they will someday listen to you whiners DFO will become something like Star Wars Galaxies, but much, much worse...
Actually DFO needs not less grind but more diversity. Like peaceful imperial part rich on safety and flashy life like shiny knight patrols and civilian NPCs, but poor on opportunities, and merciless wild lands full of treasures and tough guys...
What illness accured during the last years that let usual MMORPG players call character progression a "grind" ?
Can we agree it was WoW ? or something else ?
When i started playing MMORPG's i thought a basic point and central to the genre was that you progress being stored on a server and you could login the next day to continue to work on your chars abilities as opposed to other games in which there was no progress and after your playing session everything was lost and there is no progress in terms of stored abilities.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
What illness accured during the last years that let usual MMORPG players call character progression a "grind" ?
Can we agree it was WoW ? or something else ?
When i started playing MMORPG's i thought a basic point and central to the genre was that you progress being stored on a server and you could login the next day to continue to work on your chars abilities as opposed to other games in which there was no progress and after your playing session everything was lost and there is no progress in terms of stored abilities.
you're making the logical error that people who call the grind out, are talking about character progression.
to make it short: grind =/= characterprogression. fooof, your whole post just became wrong.
I have a 6 month sub to the game still running... I've just lost my driving desire to play soley because of the GAP there is from new to vet players. I'd say my character is middle of the road slightly leaning on vet... however my point is no one ever really plays the game just to play the game. Everyone is doing the exact same things because it causes skills to raise the fastest or base stats. Logging in to find everyone just trying to grind out shit just got extremely boring... and honestly I ended up realizing I get the same rush killing people in a basic FPS WITHOUT the grind. The problem with DF is that without the grind there is little to do... without pvp there is little to do. I love pvp, but even large scale seiges are about who has a better computer, not who is a good player.
Until they fix the gap there is between players... and fix the seiging system so that the entire server doesn't show up, I'm not playing. Those teleport buildings are also a step in the wrong direction... whatever happened to the idea of no fast travel to encourage players and clans to make a regional home?
If MO / ER are playable and they indeed offer a character progression to max in 3-4 weeks, i see you max char there get bored and the end will be you will just log in for the main events (raids / wars whatever "end game") and most of the time you will play Darkfall because there are still goals and developments to do and to progress your char.
Darkfall don't wanna have players who login just to PvP with max chars, there are game mechanics in place to make a requirement to go out in the world for preparations and developement that makes the world more "worldy", one of those is a slow advancement in stats.
-I have never said they should remove the grind, I say reduce the grind. Would it hurt Darkfall is a new player "only" had to mine for 66 hours to reach my vitality and not 666 hours like it is now?
You know they did already reduce the grind once.
The thing is, DF is intended to present a certain kind of experience. At some point, players as individuals have to make the decision if the game in its current form is close enough to what they want to be enjoyable. If the answer is "no", it doesn't mean the game is "bad" or "flawed" or "needs fixing". It simply means... it's not set up ideally for them.
I made the decision a little while back that even though I enjoy the basic foundation of Darkfall, that the game isn't quite "there" yet for me. It has nothing to do with "the grind", because "the grind" is only bad if all I'm doing is "grinding". If there are other things for me to do that I can break the time up with, then I don't care if I don't get to the end game for a year... I'm playing and enjoying the game as a whole... not only for one aspect of it. But that's just me.
-So what if a family father, a worker or just a normal casual player only logged in at the main events? Do you really think it would hurt Darkfall if we had 3 k hardcore players (like today) and 30 k casual players on each server?
This kind of argument always amazes me... the whole "family", "not as much time", "should be more casual to accomodate people with less time" thing. Why do people assume that there aren't people playing it right now who don't have as little time, are parents, etc... who are playing regardless, *and* enjoying themselves? Is it such a fathomless concept that others don't hold the same goals or expectations when they play a game and, despite limited time, can still enjoy themselves?
Here's the thing... You're playign with a specific playstyle in mind. You want to get to the end-game in a relatively short time. You can't, and that bothers you... so you're calling for the curve to be reduced.
And what's wrong with reducing the curve a bit to make it friendlier to casuals? Well, because it's a slippery slope when you start trying to "appeal to more people". They already reduced the grind. It was sufficient for some, but now others are finding it still to be too much... So say they reduce the grind even further for those who now find it too much... So now they satisfy those people... but then another group of players ays it's too harsh, and they need to make it more casual...
The point being, at some point, the developer needs to draw the line and say "No... this is the way the game is designed to be, we're catering to a specific group of players", and stick to it.
SE did this with FFXI... despite the cries of "make it faster!", "make it easier!"... SE held fast to the way they knew they wanted FFXI to be. They were rewarded with being the #4 most populated P2P MMO with ~500k active players for several years. They have only very recently - after 7-8 years live - started making concessions to more casual players, because the game is aging. And FFXI has always been considered a "niche" MMO.
When developers continually try to cater to more and more people... they ultimately end up failing to satisfy anyone, their intended core audience included.
Asking for any change to the game is basically asking the developers to change the game *for you* (you being in general here; not anyone specific). I know people package it as "being for the betterment of more people", but when it comes down to brass tacks... do you *really* care if your idea of "more casual" still doesn't meet other players' ideal? Are you going to hold true to that mantra and carry that torch once it's met your satisfaction? I reckon the answer here for most people is "no". Conversely, so long as it's where you want it to be, you're fine with it and, even if it's a nice thought to have some more people try the game, you're not going to lose sleep over it, right? I reckon the honest answer here is "yes". The argument of "I'm suggesting it for the benefit of everyone!" is, to me, a hollow and disingenuous statement. Unless there are some truly selfless souls out there who really care *that* greatly for "everyone else", people are ultimately arguing for themself.
Again... at some point, the player has to say "well this game isn't quite what I'm looking for... so time to look elsewhere".
-Why does the goal in Darkfall have to be "a maxed char" like all the other mmos. Why can`t the goal be gear, a clan, a house, a large ship, a city, an empire or just plain fun. Why does it always have to be level?
Who says your goal can't be a large ship? They offer that. Who says it can't be gear? You can get that as well. Who says it can't be an empire? I'm pretty sure that's partially at least what the clan wars are for. You're arguing for things that are already there.
The game is largely centered around PvP, yes. PvP is ubiquitous and you're going to find it anywhere, no matter what you're doing. It's just that kind of MMO. However, to say that it's "all about that" is, to me, just not true. In my time playing it, I identified a few different goals straight away that I wanted to work toward, and likely will as soon as I decide to come back. None of them included "getting max level so I can PvP".
Progressing to max level, to me, is an eventuality... something that happens while I'm enjoying the rest of the game, and I take that approach to every MMO I play, be it themepark or sandbox, PvE or PvP. And, so long as I've found enough to make that "journey" enjoyable for me, it's never failed me.
Seems to me the only thing holding you back from setting those other goals is your own misguided assumption that you can't.
This is a full-loot pvp mmo. It doesn`t matter what kind of fluff AV put into the world, if a new pvper can`t compete in a reasoneble amount of time. Darkfall was suppose to have 200k player at this time, but we have less than 10k. We have lost 50k players like Holdenhamlet and 150k of their friends.
And every new MMO that comes out - especially the "WoW clones" - are intended to have 1 million+, but they don't hit that mark either. There's a saying "everything works on paper".
As for "a reasonable amount of time", here again you are imposing your own idea of what's "reasonable" on a game that's designed for many others, besides yourself. To me, the grind in DF was fine... but that's because my goal isn't "getting to end game as soon as I can". My goal is to engage in all of what the game offers... PvP being part of it. And to any who might say "but DF isn't about PvE, it's about PvP"... wrong. There's a reason there's PvE content in there - even if it's ultimately to lead to PvP (such as ship building or city building), PvE content is still required to obtain those things.
Finally.. AV said themselves, in interviews and even on their own site (though some choose to ignore or forget this) that they intend the PvE element of DF to be as important as the PvP. I think it's fair to say that AV know better what their game is intended to be more than the players do.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
My first month's sub ending coincided with the april 1st patch problems. The changes do not indicate they are really aware that the grind is horrible, and the way the patch was implemented (without a test server, shutting down the game for a day and a half) overall gives me the impression that the game is basically being run by some guy and his buddies. They're making money so they're not motivated to make drastic changes.
I just can't motivate myself to pay 15 dollars to shoot trolls a thousand more times with spells just to start to try to catch up to people that have played the game for awhile and have a chance against them vs. playing mortal online beta for free.... I just can't find the motivation.
Maybe someone can give me a good reason to resub. Give it your best shot.
It's sad to see you saying this holden, because just a month ago you were extremely excited and very happy with your gaming experience, and your posts showed that.
But, as I've been saying for MONTHS now, and I even told you a month ago this, that the grind would get to you, as it has with countless, countless, countless other new players (and veterans) who at first LOVE the game (since it is a hell of a lot of fun) but get burnt out by the grind.
Of course, people will continue to act like there is no grind or that the grind is not too harsh and/or the gap between veterans and new players is not too high, and the game will continue to bleed players like you that would stay if it was not that way...... These are the people that will eventually kill off Darkfall, and I truly believe that.
I have a 6 month sub to the game still running... I've just lost my driving desire to play soley because of the GAP there is from new to vet players. I'd say my character is middle of the road slightly leaning on vet... however my point is no one ever really plays the game just to play the game. Everyone is doing the exact same things because it causes skills to raise the fastest or base stats. Logging in to find everyone just trying to grind out shit just got extremely boring... and honestly I ended up realizing I get the same rush killing people in a basic FPS WITHOUT the grind. The problem with DF is that without the grind there is little to do... without pvp there is little to do. I love pvp, but even large scale seiges are about who has a better computer, not who is a good player.
Until they fix the gap there is between players... and fix the seiging system so that the entire server doesn't show up, I'm not playing. Those teleport buildings are also a step in the wrong direction... whatever happened to the idea of no fast travel to encourage players and clans to make a regional home?
The reasons that you listed above are pretty much why I stopped playing. If only Darkfall could have stayed the way it was the first few weeks of EU launch. Now that was fun. Duing this time there were very few people grinding, people were everywhere, and the PvP was very enojoyable.
Darkfall needs to be revamped badly. I won't be returning unless regional play becomes the driving force of the game. Local banking, local rare resources, and like Bainwalker said, fix the entire server showing up at sieges.
I'm sorry to see that the grind eventually got to you as well holdenhamlet. I remember you were adamantly defending the grind only a short time ago while I was posting with very much the same point of view you have now. I too was very positive about the game for my first two months or so... I just eventually came to the realization that the grind was immense and required far more time than I could actually devote. The same realization you have obviously come to now. I keep resubbing every other month or so and trying to get back into it, but the grind is really killing it for me. I don't think I can keep it up despite my best efforts.
It is really a shame because I love this game in almost every other way. I would probably play it hardcore for years if I could ever reach that plateau of competitive PvP. Unfortunately I just don't think that will happen. I don't see how this game can possibly survive while bleeding new players as much as it does. AV could easily fix this problem, but they choose to do nothing. It is a sad state of affairs to be sure...
I have a 6 month sub to the game still running... I've just lost my driving desire to play soley because of the GAP there is from new to vet players. I'd say my character is middle of the road slightly leaning on vet... however my point is no one ever really plays the game just to play the game. Everyone is doing the exact same things because it causes skills to raise the fastest or base stats. Logging in to find everyone just trying to grind out shit just got extremely boring... and honestly I ended up realizing I get the same rush killing people in a basic FPS WITHOUT the grind. The problem with DF is that without the grind there is little to do... without pvp there is little to do. I love pvp, but even large scale seiges are about who has a better computer, not who is a good player.
Until they fix the gap there is between players... and fix the seiging system so that the entire server doesn't show up, I'm not playing. Those teleport buildings are also a step in the wrong direction... whatever happened to the idea of no fast travel to encourage players and clans to make a regional home?
The reasons that you listed above are pretty much why I stopped playing. If only Darkfall could have stayed the way it was the first few weeks of EU launch. Now that was fun. Duing this time there were very few people grinding, people were everywhere, and the PvP was very enojoyable.
Darkfall needs to be revamped badly. I won't be returning unless regional play becomes the driving force of the game. Local banking, local rare resources, and like Bainwalker said, fix the entire server showing up at sieges.
Yep, the first few weeks of EU-1 launch were certainly the most fun, and that's because you could find people EVERYWHERE to PvP with in the open world, people didn't have high end magic (which I think really hurts the game), and everyone was on relatively equal stat and skill levels.
Now, everyone grinds, and if you're new, you are forced to grind to even have an attempt of being competitive, and as seen with holdenhamlet, most people simply get burnt out. The gap between veterans and new players IS too high, and the only way to reduce that gap is to grind your ass off, and it continues to turn players off like holdenhamlet who was as excited as a little school girl when he first got it....
But I do think Darkfall 2010 is going to address the issue, because otherwise I think Darkfall is going to have a very rough future.
I have a 6 month sub to the game still running... I've just lost my driving desire to play soley because of the GAP there is from new to vet players. I'd say my character is middle of the road slightly leaning on vet... however my point is no one ever really plays the game just to play the game. Everyone is doing the exact same things because it causes skills to raise the fastest or base stats. Logging in to find everyone just trying to grind out shit just got extremely boring... and honestly I ended up realizing I get the same rush killing people in a basic FPS WITHOUT the grind. The problem with DF is that without the grind there is little to do... without pvp there is little to do. I love pvp, but even large scale seiges are about who has a better computer, not who is a good player.
Until they fix the gap there is between players... and fix the seiging system so that the entire server doesn't show up, I'm not playing. Those teleport buildings are also a step in the wrong direction... whatever happened to the idea of no fast travel to encourage players and clans to make a regional home?
And herein lies the root cause of the problem: Too many players come to DF for only one thing - PVP. And - when they find out they can't be uber within a few weeks to a month - they get frustrated and quit.
Everyone who thinks like you is doing the same stupidity - afk swimming...etc. There's a whole other game out there that includes exploration, crafting, pve and even local pvp (don't all have to be seiges) The only person restricting your play is YOU.
I've been playing for over 3 months now and am having a great time - I mix things up so I don't get bored and the game NEVER feels like a grind to me.
One more point - you say you get the same thrill in an FPS - then perhaps that's where you should be playing. MMO's are for a more diverse play style.
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
I have a 6 month sub to the game still running... I've just lost my driving desire to play soley because of the GAP there is from new to vet players. I'd say my character is middle of the road slightly leaning on vet... however my point is no one ever really plays the game just to play the game. Everyone is doing the exact same things because it causes skills to raise the fastest or base stats. Logging in to find everyone just trying to grind out shit just got extremely boring... and honestly I ended up realizing I get the same rush killing people in a basic FPS WITHOUT the grind. The problem with DF is that without the grind there is little to do... without pvp there is little to do. I love pvp, but even large scale seiges are about who has a better computer, not who is a good player.
Until they fix the gap there is between players... and fix the seiging system so that the entire server doesn't show up, I'm not playing. Those teleport buildings are also a step in the wrong direction... whatever happened to the idea of no fast travel to encourage players and clans to make a regional home?
And herein lies the root cause of the problem: Too many players come to DF for only one thing - PVP. And - when they find out they can't be uber within a few weeks to a month - they get frustrated and quit.
Everyone who thinks like you is doing the same stupidity - afk swimming...etc. There's a whole other game out there that includes exploration, crafting, pve and even local pvp (don't all have to be seiges) The only person restricting your play is YOU.
I've been playing for over 3 months now and am having a great time - I mix things up so I don't get bored and the game NEVER feels like a grind to me.
One more point - you say you get the same thrill in an FPS - then perhaps that's where you should be playing. MMO's are for a more diverse play style.
Bingo.
Players seldom realize the perceived "limitations" they complain about are self-imposed.
People say FFXI sucks because all it is, is grinding levels to end-game... and I shake my head.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
If MO / ER are playable and they indeed offer a character progression to max in 3-4 weeks, i see you max char there get bored and the end will be you will just log in for the main events (raids / wars whatever "end game") and most of the time you will play Darkfall because there are still goals and developments to do and to progress your char.
Darkfall don't wanna have players who login just to PvP with max chars, there are game mechanics in place to make a requirement to go out in the world for preparations and developement that makes the world more "worldy", one of those is a slow advancement in stats.
-I have never said they should remove the grind, I say reduce the grind. Would it hurt Darkfall is a new player "only" had to mine for 66 hours to reach my vitality and not 666 hours like it is now?
You know they did already reduce the grind once.
The thing is, DF is intended to present a certain kind of experience. At some point, players as individuals have to make the decision if the game in its current form is close enough to what they want to be enjoyable. If the answer is "no", it doesn't mean the game is "bad" or "flawed" or "needs fixing". It simply means... it's not set up ideally for them.
I made the decision a little while back that even though I enjoy the basic foundation of Darkfall, that the game isn't quite "there" yet for me. It has nothing to do with "the grind", because "the grind" is only bad if all I'm doing is "grinding". If there are other things for me to do that I can break the time up with, then I don't care if I don't get to the end game for a year... I'm playing and enjoying the game as a whole... not only for one aspect of it. But that's just me.
-So what if a family father, a worker or just a normal casual player only logged in at the main events? Do you really think it would hurt Darkfall if we had 3 k hardcore players (like today) and 30 k casual players on each server?
This kind of argument always amazes me... the whole "family", "not as much time", "should be more casual to accomodate people with less time" thing. Why do people assume that there aren't people playing it right now who don't have as little time, are parents, etc... who are playing regardless, *and* enjoying themselves? Is it such a fathomless concept that others don't hold the same goals or expectations when they play a game and, despite limited time, can still enjoy themselves?
Here's the thing... You're playign with a specific playstyle in mind. You want to get to the end-game in a relatively short time. You can't, and that bothers you... so you're calling for the curve to be reduced.
And what's wrong with reducing the curve a bit to make it friendlier to casuals? Well, because it's a slippery slope when you start trying to "appeal to more people". They already reduced the grind. It was sufficient for some, but now others are finding it still to be too much... So say they reduce the grind even further for those who now find it too much... So now they satisfy those people... but then another group of players ays it's too harsh, and they need to make it more casual...
The point being, at some point, the developer needs to draw the line and say "No... this is the way the game is designed to be, we're catering to a specific group of players", and stick to it.
SE did this with FFXI... despite the cries of "make it faster!", "make it easier!"... SE held fast to the way they knew they wanted FFXI to be. They were rewarded with being the #4 most populated P2P MMO with ~500k active players for several years. They have only very recently - after 7-8 years live - started making concessions to more casual players, because the game is aging. And FFXI has always been considered a "niche" MMO.
When developers continually try to cater to more and more people... they ultimately end up failing to satisfy anyone, their intended core audience included.
Asking for any change to the game is basically asking the developers to change the game *for you* (you being in general here; not anyone specific). I know people package it as "being for the betterment of more people", but when it comes down to brass tacks... do you *really* care if your idea of "more casual" still doesn't meet other players' ideal? Are you going to hold true to that mantra and carry that torch once it's met your satisfaction? I reckon the answer here for most people is "no". Conversely, so long as it's where you want it to be, you're fine with it and, even if it's a nice thought to have some more people try the game, you're not going to lose sleep over it, right? I reckon the honest answer here is "yes". The argument of "I'm suggesting it for the benefit of everyone!" is, to me, a hollow and disingenuous statement. Unless there are some truly selfless souls out there who really care *that* greatly for "everyone else", people are ultimately arguing for themself.
Again... at some point, the player has to say "well this game isn't quite what I'm looking for... so time to look elsewhere".
-Why does the goal in Darkfall have to be "a maxed char" like all the other mmos. Why can`t the goal be gear, a clan, a house, a large ship, a city, an empire or just plain fun. Why does it always have to be level?
Who says your goal can't be a large ship? They offer that. Who says it can't be gear? You can get that as well. Who says it can't be an empire? I'm pretty sure that's partially at least what the clan wars are for. You're arguing for things that are already there.
The game is largely centered around PvP, yes. PvP is ubiquitous and you're going to find it anywhere, no matter what you're doing. It's just that kind of MMO. However, to say that it's "all about that" is, to me, just not true. In my time playing it, I identified a few different goals straight away that I wanted to work toward, and likely will as soon as I decide to come back. None of them included "getting max level so I can PvP".
Progressing to max level, to me, is an eventuality... something that happens while I'm enjoying the rest of the game, and I take that approach to every MMO I play, be it themepark or sandbox, PvE or PvP. And, so long as I've found enough to make that "journey" enjoyable for me, it's never failed me.
Seems to me the only thing holding you back from setting those other goals is your own misguided assumption that you can't.
This is a full-loot pvp mmo. It doesn`t matter what kind of fluff AV put into the world, if a new pvper can`t compete in a reasoneble amount of time. Darkfall was suppose to have 200k player at this time, but we have less than 10k. We have lost 50k players like Holdenhamlet and 150k of their friends.
And every new MMO that comes out - especially the "WoW clones" - are intended to have 1 million+, but they don't hit that mark either. There's a saying "everything works on paper".
As for "a reasonable amount of time", here again you are imposing your own idea of what's "reasonable" on a game that's designed for many others, besides yourself. To me, the grind in DF was fine... but that's because my goal isn't "getting to end game as soon as I can". My goal is to engage in all of what the game offers... PvP being part of it. And to any who might say "but DF isn't about PvE, it's about PvP"... wrong. There's a reason there's PvE content in there - even if it's ultimately to lead to PvP (such as ship building or city building), PvE content is still required to obtain those things.
Finally.. AV said themselves, in interviews and even on their own site (though some choose to ignore or forget this) that they intend the PvE element of DF to be as important as the PvP. I think it's fair to say that AV know better what their game is intended to be more than the players do.
I see your bingo and raise you one
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
I have a 6 month sub to the game still running... I've just lost my driving desire to play soley because of the GAP there is from new to vet players. I'd say my character is middle of the road slightly leaning on vet... however my point is no one ever really plays the game just to play the game. Everyone is doing the exact same things because it causes skills to raise the fastest or base stats. Logging in to find everyone just trying to grind out shit just got extremely boring... and honestly I ended up realizing I get the same rush killing people in a basic FPS WITHOUT the grind. The problem with DF is that without the grind there is little to do... without pvp there is little to do. I love pvp, but even large scale seiges are about who has a better computer, not who is a good player.
Until they fix the gap there is between players... and fix the seiging system so that the entire server doesn't show up, I'm not playing. Those teleport buildings are also a step in the wrong direction... whatever happened to the idea of no fast travel to encourage players and clans to make a regional home?
And herein lies the root cause of the problem: Too many players come to DF for only one thing - PVP. And - when they find out they can't be uber within a few weeks to a month - they get frustrated and quit.
Everyone who thinks like you is doing the same stupidity - afk swimming...etc. There's a whole other game out there that includes exploration, crafting, pve and even local pvp (don't all have to be seiges) The only person restricting your play is YOU.
I've been playing for over 3 months now and am having a great time - I mix things up so I don't get bored and the game NEVER feels like a grind to me.
One more point - you say you get the same thrill in an FPS - then perhaps that's where you should be playing. MMO's are for a more diverse play style.
Bingo.
Players seldom realize the perceived "limitations" they complain about are self-imposed.
People say FFXI sucks because all it is, is grinding levels to end-game... and I shake my head.
I'm so sorry for having the audacity to think that I should be able to have fun and competitive PvP in a PvP-oriented game. How foolish of me...
Most people don't buy Darkfall because they are looking forward to a never-ending grind. They play it because they want to experience competitive hardcore PvP on a massive scale. This is the only real draw to Darkfall and most people are just not willing to endure the incredibly tedious and boring grind that is required to experience it. Darkfall would only benefit by lowering the barrier for entry as the world would be much more populated and the wars would actually be huge... rather than the same small collection of veterans that show up every time now.
People like you are the reason that this game is suffering. You are the reason that its subs are declining over time and almost every new player leaves within three months. Your resistance to change is killing this game and as long as AV continues to cater to you, the game will not be what it could be...
There's a whole other game out there that includes exploration, crafting, pve and even local pvp (don't all have to be seiges) The only person restricting your play is YOU.
The problem I have with that argument is every other major MMORPG has systems built in place that provide a better experience for all of those things. What Darkfall has going for it is (obviously) the open PVP and the combat system, but I felt I couldn't participate after a month and a week of pretty hardcore grinding (like 8 hours a day or so, some days even more).
I like exploring and crafting and PVE, but I wouldn't choose Darkfall over any other game to do those things.
The argument of "making your own fun" is never something I bought into in any game. I'm playing a game to have fun; I can make my own fun without playing a game (and it's free in real life). Fans were making that same argument for STO when I said that the gameplay was boring and repetative.
Just out of curiousity echolynfan, what are your skills/health/stats like after 3 months of exploring and crafting and pveing.
There is no grind in DF, just play the game like you would any other and the skills will come as they do, you can have a weapon mastery and some decent magic in a months time np, if you cant be bothered to spend 3-4 months or so building a decent character then this game isnt for you, good day.
I have a 6 month sub to the game still running... I've just lost my driving desire to play soley because of the GAP there is from new to vet players. I'd say my character is middle of the road slightly leaning on vet... however my point is no one ever really plays the game just to play the game. Everyone is doing the exact same things because it causes skills to raise the fastest or base stats. Logging in to find everyone just trying to grind out shit just got extremely boring... and honestly I ended up realizing I get the same rush killing people in a basic FPS WITHOUT the grind. The problem with DF is that without the grind there is little to do... without pvp there is little to do. I love pvp, but even large scale seiges are about who has a better computer, not who is a good player.
Until they fix the gap there is between players... and fix the seiging system so that the entire server doesn't show up, I'm not playing. Those teleport buildings are also a step in the wrong direction... whatever happened to the idea of no fast travel to encourage players and clans to make a regional home?
And herein lies the root cause of the problem: Too many players come to DF for only one thing - PVP. And - when they find out they can't be uber within a few weeks to a month - they get frustrated and quit.
Everyone who thinks like you is doing the same stupidity - afk swimming...etc. There's a whole other game out there that includes exploration, crafting, pve and even local pvp (don't all have to be seiges) The only person restricting your play is YOU.
I've been playing for over 3 months now and am having a great time - I mix things up so I don't get bored and the game NEVER feels like a grind to me.
One more point - you say you get the same thrill in an FPS - then perhaps that's where you should be playing. MMO's are for a more diverse play style.
I've been playing since Beta in Darkfall, I know all there is to do in the game.... and the one thing that is very clear is that everything a player does in Darkfall is in some way related to their ability to pvp. Yes you may enjoy crafting, or mobbing. But in the end those are side goals in ones main goal of being able to kill people; trust me when I tell you the only reason I am not a super-godly vet player is because I CHOSE to play the game, not grind it. I spent my days on EU constantly hunting other players, I'd consider myself a true PK in the senseit is all I ever want to do... and though the recent changes have been good for the game (What with more experience gained from mobs) I feel left out of the loop because I like to wack on players. I've likely seen the world of Agon more than anyone... I've circled it up to five times a night merely looking for pvp.
Yes, only I am restricting myself from enjoying the game... but in the end my conclusion is the same. The game isn't balanced in a way that encourages the type of gameplay it offers. 90% of the content in the game is geared towards pvp, 99% of people's goals when they are crafting, gathering or mobbing is so that they can pvp better. It's fine if the game wants to focus strongly on pvp, it's not fine when to even compete on a somewhat equal level a player needs to spend 4+ months just to barely be competitive with the vets. It's wrong that people feel the need to afk skill/stat grind. If the game focused less on progression and more on content there is to do it would be easily the best MMO on the market. But right now it's a shallow game with only a carrot on the end of a stick luring people to keep grinding with the hope that once they get to their goal of pvp dominance the game will be everything they want it to be. The worst part is once you reach that goal... and you are godly and can beat nearly anyone not at your level of grind.... it gets boring stomping out people who can't even scratch you.
The game needs a shift of what the challenge is, the challenge should not be who can avoid getting ass-raped until they can do the ass-raping... it should be the challenge of people being on somewhat of a balanced playing field where it's actual player skill, not player stats.
Hi holden. I saw you protecting the game a lot back then. Specially when we attack the grind problem. Now, you make a thread saying that you hate the grind. Well, We told you!!!!
There's a whole other game out there that includes exploration, crafting, pve and even local pvp (don't all have to be seiges) The only person restricting your play is YOU.
The problem I have with that argument is every other major MMORPG has systems built in place that provide a better experience for all of those things. What Darkfall has going for it is (obviously) the open PVP and the combat system, but I felt I couldn't participate after a month and a week of pretty hardcore grinding (like 8 hours a day or so, some days even more).
I like exploring and crafting and PVE, but I wouldn't choose Darkfall over any other game to do those things.
The argument of "making your own fun" is never something I bought into in any game. I'm playing a game to have fun; I can make my own fun without playing a game (and it's free in real life). Fans were making that same argument for STO when I said that the gameplay was boring and repetative.
Just out of curiousity echolynfan, what are your skills/health/stats like after 3 months of exploring and crafting and pveing.
I'll agree with you about STO - I quit that game before it was released - no content at all - and this by no means is a problem in Darkfall. What is the problem are the number of players who want vet status without putting in the time it takes to be a vet.
I've never AFK'd anything or found DF to be a grind. Since you asked my stats..here they are:
STATS:
HP 293
Stam 302
Mana 199
Strength 52.77
Vitality 56.10
Dexterity 28.61
Quickness 46.51
Intelligence 33.20
Wisdom 58.32
SKILLS:
Greatswords 93.05
GS Mastery 54.95
GS Power Attack 61.65
Archery 65.73
Armor Prof 100%
Armored Archery 77.19
Armored Casting 56.63
Lesser Magic 100%
Air Magic 33.15
Greater Magic 65.34
Fire magic 63.34
Spell Chanting 22.65
Water Magic 16.11
Witchcraft 27.94
CRAFTING:
Alchemy 34.97
Armorsmithing 78.27
Bowyer 69.66
Cooking 66.89
Enchantment 10.18 (Just started this one - very fun)
Fishing 68.19
Herb Gathering 83.13
Herb Gathering Mastery 47.31
Herbalism 35.61
Industry 65.01
Logging and Logging Mastery 100%
Mining and Mining Mastery 100%
Skinning 94.14
Smelting 100%
Tailoring 100%
Taming 7.59
Trueforge Armor 25.30
Trueforge Weapon 29.80
Weaponsmithing 88.16
Woodcutting 87.70
Of course - this isn't inclusive but it's plenty enough to see my progrssion after 3 months of normal ..non-grinding play.
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
I've enjoyed your evolution as a poster/player and would hate to see you give up so early in your quest to PVP. Try and remember back when you first posted about Darkfall telling the world that you didn't need to PVE to be competitive and that you were enjoying yourself. What happened to those days?
It is interesting to watch how some players change. It looks like this guy used to call people trolls all day who said there was a massive grind and now he is proclaiming the horrible grind. Thats why i always try to do research for myself before i start playing a game and try to have an objective viewpoint.
Why someone would defend the grind after only playing for a couple weeks is beyond me. Like, "outer solar system" beyond. I have a couple days left in my 7 day trial I think but i have a pretty good idea of what my next few months would be like if I subscribed to this game. I'll probably end up just farming new players all day anyway so i wont need to go full-on-super-grinder.
mmoluva is a troll IMO. I never flat out called him a liar or anything (although I did call him out when he exageratted, which he did and does often); I disagreed with his methods. Although I now agree with his overall idea that the grind sucks, that doesn't mean I'm going to post on this board about the grind every day in some disguised way like he does. That would make me a troll.
I think you would consider this great advice since it's your own and stay sudscribed.
"MMORPGs are about the ride, not the destination, even Darkfall. If you play any MMORPG just to get to endgame as fast as possible, you are almost definitely going to be dissapointed by what you find, because your expectations will be so high. It's just like someone that spends their entire life overworking to get "that great car" or "that great house". They are bound to be burned out and dissapointed by the time they actually achieve their goal." Holdenhamlet
My first month's sub ending coincided with the april 1st patch problems. The changes do not indicate they are really aware that the grind is horrible, and the way the patch was implemented (without a test server, shutting down the game for a day and a half) overall gives me the impression that the game is basically being run by some guy and his buddies. They're making money so they're not motivated to make drastic changes.
I just can't motivate myself to pay 15 dollars to shoot trolls a thousand more times with spells just to start to try to catch up to people that have played the game for awhile and have a chance against them vs. playing mortal online beta for free.... I just can't find the motivation.
Maybe someone can give me a good reason to resub. Give it your best shot.
I appreciate your honesty and would like to suggest you stay subscribed. Firstly, what is your PVE kill count at 5 weeks? If it is under 3,000 PVE kills try and hit this 3,000 PVE mob plateau. Try the swimming game for a couple months while playing another mmo. If you do this you will find that the time away while playing the alternate mmo may regenerate your interest in Darkfall and you will have swam for 60 days. I've enjoyed your evolution as a poster/player and would hate to see you give up so early in your quest to PVP. Try and remember back when you first posted about Darkfall telling the world that you didn't need to PVE to be competitive and that you were enjoying yourself. What happened to those days? Darkfall is like a marriage to an aging partner, you need to realize that back during the honeymoon stage you were making frequent trips to the bedroom but now 5 weeks later you find yourself staying at the office working late avoiding what awaits you at home.
Yes..exactly...DARKFALL is like having an affair with your secretary.
Comments
Nine years ago, a great game, in whose symbolic shadow we stand was conceived.
This momentous game came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of players who had been seared in the flames of mediocrity.
It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of boredom.
But one hundred months later, we must face the tragic fact that the game does not deliver.
One hundred months later, the game is still sadly crippled by the manacles of grind and the chains of conservatism.
One hundred months later, the Player lives on a lonely island with noone around, in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity.
One hundred months later, the Player is still grinding in every corner of Agon and finds himself an exile in his own land.
So we have come here today to dramatize an appalling condition.
In a sense we have come to forumfall to cash a check.
When the architects of this game wrote the magnificent words of full loot warfare and the declaration of Playerskill,
they were signing a promissory note to which every Player was to fall heir.
This note was a promise that all players would be guaranteed the inalienable rights of pvp, no grind, and the pursuit of fun.
It is obvious today that Darkfall has defaulted on this promissory note insofar as it's citizens are concerned.
Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, Darkfall has given the players a bad check which has come back marked "insufficient funds."
But we refuse to believe that the bank of fun is bankrupt.
We refuse to believe that there are insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this game.
So we have come to cash this check -- a check that will give us upon demand the riches of no grind and the fun of pvp.
We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind Darkfall of the fierce urgency of now.
This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism.
Now is the time to rise from the dark and desolate valley of segregation through grind to the sunlit path of fun pvp.
Now is the time to open the doors of opportunity to all of Agon's children.
Now is the time to lift our game from the quicksands of it's own injustice to the solid rock of fun gameplay.
It would be fatal for the game to overlook the urgency of the moment and to underestimate the determination of the player.
This sweltering summer of the Player's legitimate discontent will not pass until there is an invigorating autumn of fixes and content.
Twothousand and ten is not an end, but a beginning.
Those who hope that the Player needed to blow off steam and will now be content will have a rude awakening if the game returns to business as usual.
There will be neither rest nor tranquility in Darkfall until the Player is granted his citizenship rights.
The whirlwinds of revolt will continue to shake the foundations of our game until the bright day of justice emerges.
But there is something that I must say to my people who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of PvP.
In the process of gaining our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds.
Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for PvP by drinking from the cup of grind and conservatism.
We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline.
We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into mindless flamefests.
Again and again we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting mindless flame with logic and rationale.
The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the community must not lead us to distrust of all veterans,
for many of our veteran brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny
and their fun is inextricably bound to our fun.
We cannot walk alone.
And as we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall march ahead.
We cannot turn back.
There are those who are asking the devotees of a grind free game, "When will you be satisfied?"
We can never be satisfied as long as our characters, heavy with the fatigue of grind,
cannot gain lodging in the cities of pvp and the bindslots of those cities.
We cannot be satisfied as long as the Player's basic mobility is from a smaller grind to a larger one.
We can never be satisfied as long as a Player in Shoal cannot pvp and a Player in Hintenfau believes he has nothing for which to pvp.
No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until patches roll down like waters and fixes like a mighty stream.
I am not unmindful that some of you have come here out of great trials and tribulations.
Some of you have come fresh from a three day ban.
Some of you have come from areas where your quest for pvp left you battered by the storms of coservative flames and staggered by the winds of veteran brutality.
You have been the veterans of creative suffering. Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive.
Go back to Shoal, go back to Red Moon, go back to Charybis, go back to Sanguine, go back to the goblins and trolls of our noob cities,
knowing that somehow this situation can and will be changed. Let us not wallow in the valley of despair.
I say to you today, my friends, that in spite of the difficulties and frustrations of the moment, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the Darkfall dream.
I have a dream that one day this game will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are able to pvp."
I have a dream that one day on the red hills of the Tribelands the twinks of former unsubbers and the toons of former vets will be able to fight each other.
I have a dream that one day even the state of Nagast, a desert state, sweltering with the heat of playerkilling and noobfarming, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and PvP.
I have a dream that my four twinks will one day live in a game where they will not be controlled by me anymore but by other, new players.
I have a dream today.
I have a dream that one day the state of Cairn, whose governor's lips are presently dripping with the words of interposition and nullification,
will be transformed into a situation where noobs will be able to join hands with vets and fight against each other as equals.
I have a dream today.
I have a dream that one day every fun shall be exalted, every grind shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight,
and the glory of the Makers shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together.
This is our hope. This is the faith with which I resub with. With this faith we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope.
With this faith we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our game into a beautiful symphony of warfare.
With this faith we will be able to work together, to fight together, to own together, to go red together, to stand up for pvp together, knowing that we will have fun one day.
This will be the day when all of Agon's children will be able to sing with a new meaning,
"My game, 'tis of thee, sweet land of pvp, of thee I sing. Land where my veterans died, land of the gamer's pride, from every mountainside, let playerskill ring."
And if Darkfall is to be a great game this must become true.
So let playerskill ring from the prodigious hilltops of Ymir's Tear.
Let playerskill ring from the mighty mountains of Flaming Skull.
Let playerskill ring from the heightening Alleghenies of The Middle!
Let playerskill ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Niflheim!
Let playerskill ring from the curvaceous peaks of Cairn!
But not only that; let playerskill ring from Stone Mountain of Rubayiat!
Let playerskill ring from Lookout Mountain of Yssam!
Let playerskill ring from every hill and every molehill of Sanguine. From every mountainside, let playerskill ring.
When we let playerskill ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every clan and every city,
we will be able to speed up that day when all of Agon's children, new players and old players, Crafters and Fighters, Clans and Solo Players,
will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Spiritual, "No Grind at last! No Grind at last! thank Aventurine Almighty, there is no grind at last!"
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=241510
I like Darfall and MO, but they are both run by "a guy and their friends" the patching issues have been the same with MO. . this as during beta sure. . but how will this change later? It is the same guys with one server etc. I see this issue being more of a manpower / funding thing rather than a game specific thing.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
rwitmaack - I bow to you
thanks, but that would best be served by supporting said thread in forumfall before it get's torn apart by the conservative veteran elite.
This veteran elite is only logical to exist in a game like this, DFO is the mother of niche games and as such brings along players with more conservatism than Tories.
A year of such grind (I hear it was even worse before the exp) HAS to scramble your cognitive abilities and sensory perception and telling people that have been grinding since day one that the grind is absolutely horrible is like convincing Tasos to spend more money on advertising DFO.
Actually it's not only "veteran elite". There are a lot of grinders in every next MMORPG on the market who like to grind if reward is proper. In DFO reward is good so the game will always have this type of players. Plus add to them those who just like playing (almost living) in a fantastic emmersive world without being a super-duper ownah, and you'll get some numbers. Not as many as WoW but enough for AV guys to make living. And if they will someday listen to you whiners DFO will become something like Star Wars Galaxies, but much, much worse...
Actually DFO needs not less grind but more diversity. Like peaceful imperial part rich on safety and flashy life like shiny knight patrols and civilian NPCs, but poor on opportunities, and merciless wild lands full of treasures and tough guys...
What illness accured during the last years that let usual MMORPG players call character progression a "grind" ?
Can we agree it was WoW ? or something else ?
When i started playing MMORPG's i thought a basic point and central to the genre was that you progress being stored on a server and you could login the next day to continue to work on your chars abilities as opposed to other games in which there was no progress and after your playing session everything was lost and there is no progress in terms of stored abilities.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
you're making the logical error that people who call the grind out, are talking about character progression.
to make it short: grind =/= characterprogression. fooof, your whole post just became wrong.
I have a 6 month sub to the game still running... I've just lost my driving desire to play soley because of the GAP there is from new to vet players. I'd say my character is middle of the road slightly leaning on vet... however my point is no one ever really plays the game just to play the game. Everyone is doing the exact same things because it causes skills to raise the fastest or base stats. Logging in to find everyone just trying to grind out shit just got extremely boring... and honestly I ended up realizing I get the same rush killing people in a basic FPS WITHOUT the grind. The problem with DF is that without the grind there is little to do... without pvp there is little to do. I love pvp, but even large scale seiges are about who has a better computer, not who is a good player.
Until they fix the gap there is between players... and fix the seiging system so that the entire server doesn't show up, I'm not playing. Those teleport buildings are also a step in the wrong direction... whatever happened to the idea of no fast travel to encourage players and clans to make a regional home?
Full Sail University - Game Design
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It's sad to see you saying this holden, because just a month ago you were extremely excited and very happy with your gaming experience, and your posts showed that.
But, as I've been saying for MONTHS now, and I even told you a month ago this, that the grind would get to you, as it has with countless, countless, countless other new players (and veterans) who at first LOVE the game (since it is a hell of a lot of fun) but get burnt out by the grind.
Of course, people will continue to act like there is no grind or that the grind is not too harsh and/or the gap between veterans and new players is not too high, and the game will continue to bleed players like you that would stay if it was not that way...... These are the people that will eventually kill off Darkfall, and I truly believe that.
The reasons that you listed above are pretty much why I stopped playing. If only Darkfall could have stayed the way it was the first few weeks of EU launch. Now that was fun. Duing this time there were very few people grinding, people were everywhere, and the PvP was very enojoyable.
Darkfall needs to be revamped badly. I won't be returning unless regional play becomes the driving force of the game. Local banking, local rare resources, and like Bainwalker said, fix the entire server showing up at sieges.
I'm sorry to see that the grind eventually got to you as well holdenhamlet. I remember you were adamantly defending the grind only a short time ago while I was posting with very much the same point of view you have now. I too was very positive about the game for my first two months or so... I just eventually came to the realization that the grind was immense and required far more time than I could actually devote. The same realization you have obviously come to now. I keep resubbing every other month or so and trying to get back into it, but the grind is really killing it for me. I don't think I can keep it up despite my best efforts.
It is really a shame because I love this game in almost every other way. I would probably play it hardcore for years if I could ever reach that plateau of competitive PvP. Unfortunately I just don't think that will happen. I don't see how this game can possibly survive while bleeding new players as much as it does. AV could easily fix this problem, but they choose to do nothing. It is a sad state of affairs to be sure...
Yep, the first few weeks of EU-1 launch were certainly the most fun, and that's because you could find people EVERYWHERE to PvP with in the open world, people didn't have high end magic (which I think really hurts the game), and everyone was on relatively equal stat and skill levels.
Now, everyone grinds, and if you're new, you are forced to grind to even have an attempt of being competitive, and as seen with holdenhamlet, most people simply get burnt out. The gap between veterans and new players IS too high, and the only way to reduce that gap is to grind your ass off, and it continues to turn players off like holdenhamlet who was as excited as a little school girl when he first got it....
But I do think Darkfall 2010 is going to address the issue, because otherwise I think Darkfall is going to have a very rough future.
And herein lies the root cause of the problem: Too many players come to DF for only one thing - PVP. And - when they find out they can't be uber within a few weeks to a month - they get frustrated and quit.
Everyone who thinks like you is doing the same stupidity - afk swimming...etc. There's a whole other game out there that includes exploration, crafting, pve and even local pvp (don't all have to be seiges) The only person restricting your play is YOU.
I've been playing for over 3 months now and am having a great time - I mix things up so I don't get bored and the game NEVER feels like a grind to me.
One more point - you say you get the same thrill in an FPS - then perhaps that's where you should be playing. MMO's are for a more diverse play style.
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
Bingo.
Players seldom realize the perceived "limitations" they complain about are self-imposed.
People say FFXI sucks because all it is, is grinding levels to end-game... and I shake my head.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I see your bingo and raise you one
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
I'm so sorry for having the audacity to think that I should be able to have fun and competitive PvP in a PvP-oriented game. How foolish of me...
Most people don't buy Darkfall because they are looking forward to a never-ending grind. They play it because they want to experience competitive hardcore PvP on a massive scale. This is the only real draw to Darkfall and most people are just not willing to endure the incredibly tedious and boring grind that is required to experience it. Darkfall would only benefit by lowering the barrier for entry as the world would be much more populated and the wars would actually be huge... rather than the same small collection of veterans that show up every time now.
People like you are the reason that this game is suffering. You are the reason that its subs are declining over time and almost every new player leaves within three months. Your resistance to change is killing this game and as long as AV continues to cater to you, the game will not be what it could be...
There's a whole other game out there that includes exploration, crafting, pve and even local pvp (don't all have to be seiges) The only person restricting your play is YOU.
The problem I have with that argument is every other major MMORPG has systems built in place that provide a better experience for all of those things. What Darkfall has going for it is (obviously) the open PVP and the combat system, but I felt I couldn't participate after a month and a week of pretty hardcore grinding (like 8 hours a day or so, some days even more).
I like exploring and crafting and PVE, but I wouldn't choose Darkfall over any other game to do those things.
The argument of "making your own fun" is never something I bought into in any game. I'm playing a game to have fun; I can make my own fun without playing a game (and it's free in real life). Fans were making that same argument for STO when I said that the gameplay was boring and repetative.
Just out of curiousity echolynfan, what are your skills/health/stats like after 3 months of exploring and crafting and pveing.
There is no grind in DF, just play the game like you would any other and the skills will come as they do, you can have a weapon mastery and some decent magic in a months time np, if you cant be bothered to spend 3-4 months or so building a decent character then this game isnt for you, good day.
I've been playing since Beta in Darkfall, I know all there is to do in the game.... and the one thing that is very clear is that everything a player does in Darkfall is in some way related to their ability to pvp. Yes you may enjoy crafting, or mobbing. But in the end those are side goals in ones main goal of being able to kill people; trust me when I tell you the only reason I am not a super-godly vet player is because I CHOSE to play the game, not grind it. I spent my days on EU constantly hunting other players, I'd consider myself a true PK in the senseit is all I ever want to do... and though the recent changes have been good for the game (What with more experience gained from mobs) I feel left out of the loop because I like to wack on players. I've likely seen the world of Agon more than anyone... I've circled it up to five times a night merely looking for pvp.
Yes, only I am restricting myself from enjoying the game... but in the end my conclusion is the same. The game isn't balanced in a way that encourages the type of gameplay it offers. 90% of the content in the game is geared towards pvp, 99% of people's goals when they are crafting, gathering or mobbing is so that they can pvp better. It's fine if the game wants to focus strongly on pvp, it's not fine when to even compete on a somewhat equal level a player needs to spend 4+ months just to barely be competitive with the vets. It's wrong that people feel the need to afk skill/stat grind. If the game focused less on progression and more on content there is to do it would be easily the best MMO on the market. But right now it's a shallow game with only a carrot on the end of a stick luring people to keep grinding with the hope that once they get to their goal of pvp dominance the game will be everything they want it to be. The worst part is once you reach that goal... and you are godly and can beat nearly anyone not at your level of grind.... it gets boring stomping out people who can't even scratch you.
The game needs a shift of what the challenge is, the challenge should not be who can avoid getting ass-raped until they can do the ass-raping... it should be the challenge of people being on somewhat of a balanced playing field where it's actual player skill, not player stats.
Full Sail University - Game Design
Hi holden. I saw you protecting the game a lot back then. Specially when we attack the grind problem. Now, you make a thread saying that you hate the grind. Well, We told you!!!!
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I'll agree with you about STO - I quit that game before it was released - no content at all - and this by no means is a problem in Darkfall. What is the problem are the number of players who want vet status without putting in the time it takes to be a vet.
I've never AFK'd anything or found DF to be a grind. Since you asked my stats..here they are:
STATS:
HP 293
Stam 302
Mana 199
Strength 52.77
Vitality 56.10
Dexterity 28.61
Quickness 46.51
Intelligence 33.20
Wisdom 58.32
SKILLS:
Greatswords 93.05
GS Mastery 54.95
GS Power Attack 61.65
Archery 65.73
Armor Prof 100%
Armored Archery 77.19
Armored Casting 56.63
Lesser Magic 100%
Air Magic 33.15
Greater Magic 65.34
Fire magic 63.34
Spell Chanting 22.65
Water Magic 16.11
Witchcraft 27.94
CRAFTING:
Alchemy 34.97
Armorsmithing 78.27
Bowyer 69.66
Cooking 66.89
Enchantment 10.18 (Just started this one - very fun)
Fishing 68.19
Herb Gathering 83.13
Herb Gathering Mastery 47.31
Herbalism 35.61
Industry 65.01
Logging and Logging Mastery 100%
Mining and Mining Mastery 100%
Skinning 94.14
Smelting 100%
Tailoring 100%
Taming 7.59
Trueforge Armor 25.30
Trueforge Weapon 29.80
Weaponsmithing 88.16
Woodcutting 87.70
Of course - this isn't inclusive but it's plenty enough to see my progrssion after 3 months of normal ..non-grinding play.
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
I think you would consider this great advice since it's your own and stay sudscribed.
"MMORPGs are about the ride, not the destination, even Darkfall. If you play any MMORPG just to get to endgame as fast as possible, you are almost definitely going to be dissapointed by what you find, because your expectations will be so high. It's just like someone that spends their entire life overworking to get "that great car" or "that great house". They are bound to be burned out and dissapointed by the time they actually achieve their goal." Holdenhamlet
Yes..exactly...DARKFALL is like having an affair with your secretary.