To the OP,i know it is easy to be skeptical,as there is a lot of flaws/holes in the design.Square is going to have to fill these holes with more ideas,it really is creating a big circle effect of creating ideas then patching them.
If there is, you guys haven't managed to bring up any of them...
You can be upset that the game isn't exactly like FFXI, but don't use reasons like this to prove your point. So far it sounds good, no "lot of flaws/holes in the design". You being unable to accept this new system is the only hole so far =/.
Nothing here points to "ease of exp", more than that it points that getting exp will be harder than before.
There is a limit to how many leves you can do per day alone, you can help others with their leves as much as you want though. Encourages Grouping.
Your conclusions don't make any sense... you can dislike the system all you want, but the reasons for that are not logical. You just don't like change.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
To the OP,i know it is easy to be skeptical,as there is a lot of flaws/holes in the design.Square is going to have to fill these holes with more ideas,it really is creating a big circle effect of creating ideas then patching them.
I think we have to jsut sit back and wait for more information ,and trust that Square has proven to be for the most part ,very smart.Every single mage in FFXi had some way to replenish MP ,including Bard songs,so i cannot believe they would totally abandon it from every class.Like one poster said they may even include food as well,to replenish and there is the ability to drain MP from MP mobs.
As far as your idea to group and set a camp,i am very sad to say,there seems to be enough information that points to this idea as long lost in FFXi.The reason is so much points to ease of xp and warping around via the GuildLeves.This is why they are all instancess as well,that part i don't like either.So 99% of the players will just be playing like WOW,quest>quest>quest.Furthermore if they do not put a limit on Leves per day,then players will likely solo most of the time repeating solo Leves,sort of like doing Dailies only with no limits.
So i share the same sentiment as the OP,i do not like the push to a totally linear ,quest game,that is the reason i do not like Wow.I know a lot of people like this idea,because it basically turns the game into a solo fest,however why Square shuns the true FF fan,is beyond me.
And you, like the OP are jumping to conclusions based on far too little information to do so. But then again, you are Wizardry, FFXIV's resident Doubting Thomas about, pretty much, everything since they announced the game.
They're "shunning the true FF fans"? What's a "true FF fan", exactly? Someone who agrees with you? And again... you don't know what they're doing with the game, any more than most anyone else. Do you really think the information they've provided is *all* of it? You realize how little of the game has actually been revealed?
About 90% of the information that's been shown has been based in or around Limsa Lominsa, with some screenshots showing other environments. There's other NPC factions in the game that haven't been revealed which will, likely, have their own storylines. There are 2 other cities that have yet to be shown beyond their name, a brief description and some concept art. They havent' revealed all the game systems yet. They haven't delved into how things like your chosen deity, or birthdate, or clan will affect you, or the gameplay. They haven't revealed what else the game world will offer players to do... Seriously, as of right now, your 'doom and gloom' is pretty much unjustified and is more in line with pessimistically jumping to conclusions based on what you think you know about the game.
Given the amount of content and variety FFXI offered - even when it was only FFXI and Zilart - I find it extremely difficult to believe that's all the game will offer. In my experience, SE doesn't do anything half-way, or make "token efforts". They go all out, especially in the main FF series. And, yes, a "true FF fan" would know that.
When did they say Guildleves will be the entirety of the gameplay? That's a feature that they're implementing to give people "content on demand" (to a point). Also, it's not only solo content. As has been described, only 1 of 5 tiers will be designed for soloers. There will be tougher, higher tier ones that require groups of up to 15 people. Also, from an interview I read some time back, some can take hours, or even *days* to complete (assuming you leave off where you were and come back later). That doesn't sound to me like it's intended to cater specifically to solo players, or a totally linear quest game. Guild leves are a form of content the game will feature... they're not *the* game. They're like a combo of Assault and BCNMs, only without the "price of entry".
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
To the OP,i know it is easy to be skeptical,as there is a lot of flaws/holes in the design.Square is going to have to fill these holes with more ideas,it really is creating a big circle effect of creating ideas then patching them.
If there is, you guys haven't managed to bring up any of them...
You can be upset that the game isn't exactly like FFXI, but don't use reasons like this to prove your point. So far it sounds good, no "lot of flaws/holes in the design". You being unable to accept this new system is the only hole so far =/.
Nothing here points to "ease of exp", more than that it points that getting exp will be harder than before.
There is a limit to how many leves you can do per day alone, you can help others with their leves as much as you want though. Encourages Grouping.
Your conclusions don't make any sense... you can dislike the system all you want, but the reasons for that are not logical. You just don't like change.
Meh...
Something about FFXIV = Wizardry doesn't like it = No one else will or should like it because they don't = nothing new.
They've been beating that drum since SE announced the game, and the most you'll get out of them is a bunch of assumptions and generalizations about how they think it's going to be... the facts never support their conclusions.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Something about FFXIV = Wizardry doesn't like it = No one else will or should like it because they don't = nothing new.
They've been beating that drum since SE announced the game, and the most you'll get out of them is a bunch of assumptions and generalizations about how they think it's going to be... the facts never support their conclusions.
The only thing that irks me is that they keep making conclusions and evidence that their opinion is justified, although the whole issue lies in the fact that people, most of them at least, are afraid of change. New things are scary and people like to think of and point out flaws in the new ways. Those are not reasonable flaws however, because it all stems from being scared and unfamiliar with the new.
I don't think many people can avoid this kind of thinking. I'm a victim of it sometimes too, but when it comes to games I am reasonable. Some people are not this way though, and this thread is a proof of that.
If there was you know, reasonable criticism about the system then that would be fine to discuss. But now we are just trying to argue things that are not logical in the first place.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I think guildleves/quests are a good idea as long as there's still downtime between battles, and ofcourse that they're group-based. They look like they will be group based though, which is a huge relief. I hate quest leveling in other MMos because it's designed for solo play and the quests are just badly done. If FFXIV can pull off quest progression with constant grouping and well done quests/story(I think they will, even better than SWTOR. Hard to believe the people who made the FF games will make crappy WoW-like quests) that'd be amazing. Although, the quests will probably have to be either really long or random and not following a linear story, otherwise everyone will be on different quests and it'll be hard to find people with the same quest for a group.
Also, 15 people in a group just for leveling? O_o So awesome.
I hear that while some guildleves (solo ones) are going to have 15 or 30min time limits (which gives them a nice difficulty and you can't just stand around), some leves are designed to last for days, and you can combine them together for even more epic campaigns.
And no, you don't have to do them on one sitting, lol.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Let's find out first if it has mana at all shall we? Cause if it hasn't we re doomed... oh wait, maybe it has some other system. Maybe we aren't doomed if a game does their own thing. Or maybe we aren't doomed even if a game does that thing we thought as bad, as long as we actually have fun, right?
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
Let's find out first if it has mana at all shall we? Cause if it hasn't we re doomed... oh wait, maybe it has some other system. Maybe we aren't doomed if a game does their own thing. Or maybe we aren't doomed even if a game does that thing we thought as bad, as long as we actually have fun, right?
It does have a mana/mp system. It's been discussed. That's how people know there will be no automatic regen.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I remember reading somewhere in a forum post that once MP is gone you basically have to head back to town to refresh it? Something along them lines. They said that MP will not regen even when out of combat.. That really worries me.
I was hoping for a group based game where you can find a good camp deep in a dungeon, break the spawn in whatever room you want, and pull mobs from everywhere while talking with the group and just having a good time to level up.
If its true that MP will not regenerate on its own, then the gameplay will basically be doing guildleve after guildleve constantly as the only way to progress. Sort of like how leveling in WoW was just pointless quest after quest. I really hope this is wrong though.
I'm under the impression guildleves are basically quests, and they will be the primary way of leveling? Please tell me this isnt true..
This can be cool, though (if it is so). Having folks heading back to town means lively towns and chat and community-building.
Something about FFXIV = Wizardry doesn't like it = No one else will or should like it because they don't = nothing new.
They've been beating that drum since SE announced the game, and the most you'll get out of them is a bunch of assumptions and generalizations about how they think it's going to be... the facts never support their conclusions.
The only thing that irks me is that they keep making conclusions and evidence that their opinion is justified, although the whole issue lies in the fact that people, most of them at least, are afraid of change. New things are scary and people like to think of and point out flaws in the new ways. Those are not reasonable flaws however, because it all stems from being scared and unfamiliar with the new.
I don't think many people can avoid this kind of thinking. I'm a victim of it sometimes too, but when it comes to games I am reasonable. Some people are not this way though, and this thread is a proof of that.
If there was you know, reasonable criticism about the system then that would be fine to discuss. But now we are just trying to argue things that are not logical in the first place.
No the design IS flawed and they are already admitting it.The point system is already a constent debate but there is OBVIOUS flaws and the reason why Sqaure is already claiming they MIGHT allow point resets.
The flaw is so obvious ONLY a non FFXI player would miss it.
In FFXI you change from WHM to WAR your stats auto change to compliment your new class.In FFXIV's design you change and NOTHING changes,you are stuck with the stats you alloted.Do i need to discuss this even firther,because i should not have to?This FXIV design is going to limit you to one GOOD class and anything you play after is VERY likely to be a very bad version of it,of course aside from the couple classes that may make use of the same stats.The FACT is that the FFXI systrm was less restricting and more complimentary,so NO this change is not for the better.
As far as turning FFXIV into a Leves/quest game,that is open for discusion.This is what we call a WOW clone,a game that directs you to entirely play the game via quests rather than a camp setup.This again is to each individuals own preference,but the fact that we already have a million quest games,and FFXI was the ONE gem on the block,why did Sqaure feel ther need to COPY everyone else?You can argue to gain more subscriptions,but that is not a good excuse for the game being better or not,that is just a money excuse.
Where i find the flaw is not weather or not we enjoy questing or camping,it is the fact that they made the EXACT same Leves all soloable,this contradicts what YOU said about it "encourages grouping",it actually does nothing of the sort.In FFXI you had a tough quest,you would form a group,there was no option to turn it into an easy solo quest.IDK maybe the argument is you like the idea of no grouping and turning a challenging quest into a solo one?This is not my idea of change for the BETTER,feel free to tell my why you think it is?
The mere fact that THIS post exists,shows MANY others have concern for some the games design as well as i do,these are CONCERNED players that i like,because they want the same as i do ,a game that is not going to go through several changes because of mistakes.Or at least acknowledge the mistakes BEFORE we get comfortable with the game then see all kinds of changes.
The relieving part is that Square is pretty smart,they are not going to pull the fanbois approach and act like there is no flaws,i guarantee there will be MANY changes to the system,they have already claimed this themselves,the whole system is being tested.
Instead of ASSUMING i don't like FFXIV or assuming i don't like change ,which is FAR from the truth,i get the feeling some people did NOT like FFXI and would rather turn the ONE gem we have into a clone of other games,like we need any more EQ/Wow clones?There is not ONE single game i can think of that did quests and leveling the way FFXI did,why can't we keep that ONE game true to it's roots,especially if we are going to call it another FF game?The GOOD thing about FFXi was it's CLASS system /Quest system and the way we leveled[camps]these are the changes FFXIV are making for the WORSE.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
See that one tidbit in my post, where I'm talking about "reasonable criticism"? Congratulations, you just found one example of what I mean. Too bad that kind of criticism gets lost in the lake of "NO MP REGEN THIS IS DISAPPOINTING" "THIS IS HOW GAME IS GOING TO WORK BASED ON FFXI AND IT IS DISAPPOINTING" threads.
Now, as far as turning FFXIV into quest game that again is not reasonable criticism. FFXI introduced the same kind of system used in WoW and it didn't become a WoW clone. This is exactly what I was talking about in the post you quoted. People keep making up conclusions and evidence that their opinion is justified.
Feel free to tell me where you're pulling these "exact same leves all soloable" and "turn tough quest into a solo quest" from... or maybe not, if you're not a lady.
The mere fact your post exists proves my earlier post.. Be afraid if you want, but you're not being reasonable that way.
What you say and what you do seem to be 2 completely different things.. you "like" change, but then you're afraid the said change will turn the game into a WoW clone or whatever. "Saying I don't like change is FAR from truth, but KEEP FFXIV THE SAME AS FFXI OR IT WILL SUCK".
You know, actions speak louder than words. If you want me to believe you, you gotta stop contradicting yourself.
But why am I even responding.. well, you brought up one good concern, so that's better than nothing.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Wizardry I have no idea why seem to be raging but I don't think it will be so bad that you think.
For instance the whole thing about the stat points, as far as I have read will seem like nothing more but merit points. So that you depending on what role you think you will be in or what you just enjoy to spend them on you can, but the skill with the "weapon" you have will still be more important. They have said so themselves in a dengeki Q&A that skill points will be more important than stats.
"Q. Is there no concept of “level” for the player characters?
A. There is a “physical level” that is related to the stats such as HP, MP, strength, intelligence, and so on, but your main skill’s rank is going to be more important. We wanted the armory system, the special system where players chance their weapons or tools to change their class, to stand out."
Edit: Of course we'll see later just how much more important that the Main skills rank will be.
It does seem that they think to put some restrictions in some way so you can't max every stat, and for what it seems worded (in another interview) they does seem to even think of not having a level or infinite or someway, maybe just me who sees that because it would be cool. Atleast many you might think.
Then the Guildleaves, do you really want to go through just sitting at one camp all the time? 'Cause that is what it sounds like. Guildleaves are made so that it would make it a little easier to level, while still being able to make it a little tougher, if you understand. :P It makes you and your party to need to travel, to fight on the monsters/enemies turf and rules.
And while it is easy to think that these Guildleaves will just be simple quests, seeing as they are thinking and has already said that they will take from 30 minutes up to days to do it seems to be something more than going around killing 10 rats. Ofcourse it will probably be kill 10 rats in the beginning, but in an interview they said that they are going to implement more complex guildleaves, which in my little world atleast means more complex than going from monster to monster just killing
Then the Guildleaves, do you really want to go through just sitting at one camp all the time?
Yes. I'm in support of Guildleves though, only if they do it right. Does anyone know if the group Guildleves will have more benfits than the solo ones? If group Guildleves don't have a huge advantage and aren't higher quality over the solo ones then this will be a WoW clone, everyone will just do the solo ones. This will be the first game I buy on release date, I'm so hyped for it, I just hope it doesn't stray too far off the way FFXI was. If it has the same feeling FFXI has or even improves on it this will be the best MMo ever for me.
Then the Guildleaves, do you really want to go through just sitting at one camp all the time?
Yes. I'm in support of Guildleves though, only if they do it right. Does anyone know if the group Guildleves will have more benfits than the solo ones? If group Guildleves don't have a huge advantage and aren't higher quality over the solo ones then this will be a WoW clone, everyone will just do the solo ones. This will be the first game I buy on release date, I'm so hyped for it, I just hope it doesn't stray too far off the way FFXI was. If it has the same feeling FFXI has or even improves on it this will be the best MMo ever for me.
That's true. We don't know yet, but I'll eat my hat if soloers can get similar rewards as groupers. I mean, I'll possibly faint from the surprise.
That wouldn't be Square-Enix at all. Like saying Blizzard would make soloing impossible in WoW.
One thing I do know though. You can only do a set amount of guildleves before you have to wait. Or.. you can join a group and be able to do as many leves as you want that way.
So really, even if people soloed, they'd Have to group up after an hour or 2. SE made it so casuals (those who have 1-2h of playtime a day) can progress, the rest still make progress via partying.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
- I got to try out the Guildleve system, and it feels like a great way to manage your play time. You can complete a quest within 30 minutes and then start a new one right away. It feels like Assault in FFXI, where you can enjoy some casual challenges divided into easy to manage chunks. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it feels like a system really designed around light, casual play.
Komoto: That's true, but I wouldn't say it's just a system for light play. What we wanted to do is design something that casual players could enjoy. That entails making it simple and easy at first. However, while the rules are simple early on, future quests add more rules and more variations to Guildleve while at the same time putting players up against tougher monsters. That's the kind of system we're considering.
...
- Will players be able to solo even some high-level Guildleves?
Komoto: We hope to allow that by use of the selectable difficulty levels. That isn't to say there won't be any party-related Guildleves, but we want to allow solo players to enjoy Guildleve as much as possible.
- Speaking of which, is 6 members the average party size?
Komoto: This time, we've set the maximum for parties at 15 members -- almost the size of an alliance. However, they aren't divided into units. A party of 3 is fine, a party of 8 is fine, and we don't want to impose any standards from our end. Instead of forcing minimum party sizes on players, we want to allow them to freedom to put together any group they wish.
- I was surprised to see that Teleport and Warp were available to every Class right from the start!
Komoto: There will be costs attached to those abilities, but that hasn't been implemented yet in the alpha. We hope to make it so players with limited time can travel quickly, but also add elements that players with time to spare can enjoy if they decide to travel back on foot. We are looking to provide enough warp points to make these abilities a real help for players short on time. As for costs involved, we don't plan anything really restricting, and hope to keep it down to almost nothing.
Don't take what Hyanmen is saying at face value... I think he's seeing only what he wants to see & ignore the bad. Has stated above, rank means nothing as they are going to be scalable.
a.k.a. It IS going to be a very soloable game. Rush to end game solo then grind the few "raid" leves.
Face it... Instant travel, scalable leves, casual play time friendly, etc. It wont attract the same people than FFXI & those old vets are going to be drown in a sea of "newer" MMO players crowd.
I'm with Deadline & Wizardry so far. Their concerns are valid as far as what we know up until now. We'll have to wait & see where it is going from here. Infos are just starting to get out & i'm still hopefull.
I like what you have to say most of the time, but you really need to step back & see the whole picture on this one. Right now you come off as the ultimate fanboi.
/cheers
edit: SE hasn't been very clear as far as instancing is concerned too. Some of the wording & concepts they have talked about as me a bit worried.
So really, even if people soloed, they'd Have to group up after an hour or 2. SE made it so casuals (those who have 1-2h of playtime a day) can progress, the rest still make progress via partying.
You see - that's part of the problem. Soloers will be grouping not because they enjoy grouping, but to get the carrot for grouping. They will be unfriendly, unco-operative, and incompetent.
It's not that no one will be grouping - it's that the grouping experience (particularly with PUGs) will not be fun.
The only way to prevent that is to make it clear to prospective players that a game is not amenable to soloing. It sounds to me like SE is moving in the wrong direction.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
So really, even if people soloed, they'd Have to group up after an hour or 2. SE made it so casuals (those who have 1-2h of playtime a day) can progress, the rest still make progress via partying.
You see - that's part of the problem. Soloers will be grouping not because they enjoy grouping, but to get the carrot for grouping. They will be unfriendly, unco-operative, and incompetent.
It's not that no one will be grouping - it's that the grouping experience (particularly with PUGs) will not be fun.
The only way to prevent that is to make it clear to prospective players that a game is not amenable to soloing. It sounds to me like SE is moving in the wrong direction.
If players are that opposed to grouping then they'll just quit when they realise that the game is dependent on it. It doesn't really sound much different to FFXI's regime system which allows limited soloing as well... I don't see a problem there.
So really, even if people soloed, they'd Have to group up after an hour or 2. SE made it so casuals (those who have 1-2h of playtime a day) can progress, the rest still make progress via partying.
You see - that's part of the problem. Soloers will be grouping not because they enjoy grouping, but to get the carrot for grouping. They will be unfriendly, unco-operative, and incompetent.
It's not that no one will be grouping - it's that the grouping experience (particularly with PUGs) will not be fun.
The only way to prevent that is to make it clear to prospective players that a game is not amenable to soloing. It sounds to me like SE is moving in the wrong direction.
You know, I assume that if people don't like something, they won't do it.
If people don't like grouping, and the game forces them to do it, they will (sometimes) throw a hissy fit in the forums and then quit. Nothing new about that.
Those who stick around are people who enjoy the game. That's not rocket science.
And if those people will not be able to deal with groups, they will keep soloing- and leave the groupers alone.
I mean sure, there was a carrot waiting for me in WoW when I got to certain level, but I didn't like soloing so what do ya know, I quit. It's gotta be one hell of a carrot to keep someone playing if they don't like it.
I don't see the problem here.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I like what you have to say most of the time, but you really need to step back & see the whole picture on this one. Right now you come off as the ultimate fanboi.
/cheers
edit: SE hasn't been very clear as far as instancing is concerned too. Some of the wording & concepts they have talked about as me a bit worried.
Criticism accepted. Honestly I'm just looking for an actually good debate on this one. It's gotten better in the last few posts, but it still leaves room for too many assumptions. It's hard to be objective like that.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
You know, I assume that if people don't like something, they won't do it.
Then no one in MMOs would grind, yet they do - to get what they want.
If people don't like grouping, and the game forces them to do it, they will (sometimes) throw a hissy fit in the forums and then quit. Nothing new about that.
Those who stick around are people who enjoy the game. That's not rocket science.
And if those people will not be able to deal with groups, they will keep soloing- and leave the groupers alone.
I mean sure, there was a carrot waiting for me in WoW when I got to certain level, but I didn't like soloing so what do ya know, I quit. It's gotta be one hell of a carrot to keep someone playing if they don't like it.
I don't see the problem here.
I'm guessing you haven't done dungeon PUGs in WoW (a very much solo-oriented game until level cap). Sprints through dungeons with no conversation and little aggro managment. The new cross server dungeon queues make it even worse. Soloers group in WoW - to get the gear they want.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
You know, I assume that if people don't like something, they won't do it.
Then no one in MMOs would grind, yet they do - to get what they want.
If people don't like grouping, and the game forces them to do it, they will (sometimes) throw a hissy fit in the forums and then quit. Nothing new about that.
Those who stick around are people who enjoy the game. That's not rocket science.
And if those people will not be able to deal with groups, they will keep soloing- and leave the groupers alone.
I mean sure, there was a carrot waiting for me in WoW when I got to certain level, but I didn't like soloing so what do ya know, I quit. It's gotta be one hell of a carrot to keep someone playing if they don't like it.
I don't see the problem here.
I'm guessing you haven't done dungeon PUGs in WoW (a very much solo-oriented game until level cap). Sprints through dungeons with no conversation and little aggro managment. The new cross server dungeon queues make it even worse. Soloers group in WoW - to get the gear they want.
It doesn't start that way. People have to like the game to play it further. At some point they start to get obsessed and do things even if they don't enjoy it anymore.
Such is the case of soloers grouping at the level cap. Just gotta get you hooked and then you'll do just about anything.
BUT, you can't accomplish that if the people don't like the game in the first place.
I'd also point out that WoW's game mechanics aren't really grouping-friendly in the first place. Everyone acts like an individual, even in group. Spamming skills and worrying about your own efficiency takes over cooperation. Fast combat speed to not leave any room for "unnecessary" socializing.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
As far as turning FFXIV into a Leves/quest game,that is open for discusion.This is what we call a WOW clone,a game that directs you to entirely play the game via quests rather than a camp setup.This again is to each individuals own preference,but the fact that we already have a million quest games,and FFXI was the ONE gem on the block,why did Sqaure feel ther need to COPY everyone else?You can argue to gain more subscriptions,but that is not a good excuse for the game being better or not,that is just a money excuse.
Even though I'm not thrilled about contributing to the off-topicness going on (wasn't this originally about XIV's lack of MP regen?), I feel like this must be asked: What is the difference between a game where you camp and one where you quest?
If we're talking from a purely solo standpoint, you can either stay in one area killing the same mobs over and over, or you can move from area to area killing different mobs. But because of the time it takes to travel to another area and learn the layout of the area and the spawn times, as well as learning the different strategies used against a different family of mobs, it's more efficient to stay in the same area. A demand for quest-based advancement is little more than a demand for a compensation for people who want to fight in varied locales.
Problem is, that compensation increased to the point where it's now clearly the more efficient means of advancement in many games. Sit and grind on mobs that you don't have a quest for and you feel like you're wasting time that could be better spent killing specific spiders and ogres for a greater reward (exp, money, items unobtainable elsewhere) and getting more sightseeing done too. Not to mention reading up on the lore, if you're into that. However, is that such a bad thing? Is it bad to say that people who travel around and jump through some dialogue hoops get rewarded more than those who take an approach that takes less effort and less risk?
No, what's bad is when the quest rewards push the efficiency of soloing high enough to rival group rewards. Being in a group is inherantly inconvenient—dealing with chronic AFKers, being unable to go at your own pace, bickering over tactics or loot, tolerating people who are just plain awful at their role—so the rewards need to be substantially greater than solo rewards in order to make it worthwhile. Jacking up the quest rewards throws group grinding right out the window. FFXI made this almost an impossibility by including virtually no solo quests for exp, and generally making it obnoxiously difficult to solo at all.
It looks like they are now poised to make group quests the main method of advancement, by making it more rewarding and more convenient than group grinding at a camp. I pose the question: how does this make the game worse? Groups who are willing to deal with varied objectives and obstacles should be rewarded more than those who abandon all risk and pull the same 4 mobs back to their static camp, no? "But I like sitting in the same spot" isn't a good enough answer either, because leaving the group grind as the most efficient method of advancement actively discourages people from bothering to do the more innovative and fun guildleves. If FFXI's radical difference made it good, it was the forced grouping that did so, not the forced monotony.
Something about FFXIV = Wizardry doesn't like it = No one else will or should like it because they don't = nothing new.
They've been beating that drum since SE announced the game, and the most you'll get out of them is a bunch of assumptions and generalizations about how they think it's going to be... the facts never support their conclusions.
The only thing that irks me is that they keep making conclusions and evidence that their opinion is justified, although the whole issue lies in the fact that people, most of them at least, are afraid of change. New things are scary and people like to think of and point out flaws in the new ways. Those are not reasonable flaws however, because it all stems from being scared and unfamiliar with the new.
I don't think many people can avoid this kind of thinking. I'm a victim of it sometimes too, but when it comes to games I am reasonable. Some people are not this way though, and this thread is a proof of that.
If there was you know, reasonable criticism about the system then that would be fine to discuss. But now we are just trying to argue things that are not logical in the first place.
No the design IS flawed and they are already admitting it.The point system is already a constent debate but there is OBVIOUS flaws and the reason why Sqaure is already claiming they MIGHT allow point resets.
There is a flaw if SE wants players to do all classes with the best attribute points for that class, when you switch. The question is, does SE want you to be always the best in every class? To me it seems they aren't sure yet.
They do want you to be able to play all classes, but I never heard they want you to be great in al classes when you change.
The flaw is so obvious ONLY a non FFXI player would miss it.
I played FFXI for at least 2 years, and also played some other MMORPG's. (UO,DaoC, WoW, EQII, etc.)
In FFXI you change from WHM to WAR your stats auto change to compliment your new class.
Yes.
In FFXIV's design you change and NOTHING changes,you are stuck with the stats you alloted.
And that is a bad thing? What if SE wants you to have 1 class that you are great in, say Gladiator, then I think it is safe to assume that switching between any disciples of war class will not affect you a lot, but going to the disciples of magic will. You can still go to magic, but you will be less effective. If your really prefer magic more you could reset your points and go for magic.
I actually hope for this, and I hope it cost some money to reset points, maybe how more often you change how more expansive it gets. I won't mind if they decide to change points with class changes, but I think it is more fun when people have to think ahead.
And for pure crafter people this could be really important, and is the main reason why I prefer restriction. Because if everyone can be a great crafter class, their value is only appriciated by people who dislike crafting and refuse to gain skills in that. (I also prefer 1 character for each server for the same reason)
Do i need to discuss this even firther,because i should not have to?This FXIV design is going to limit you to one GOOD class and anything you play after is VERY likely to be a very bad version of it,of course aside from the couple classes that may make use of the same stats.The FACT is that the FFXI systrm was less restricting and more complimentary,so NO this change is not for the better.
FFXIV will be more restricting, yes, but I don't see that as a bad thing, I actually would prefer it. I had all jobs unlocked in FFXI and had every job except PUP to at least 30. While it had it charms, I prefer more restrictions. I still could reset points if I decided that an other class is more fun.
And point reset will come, that I am sure of. Still I think your wish will come true, and they probably make you able to have every class have other attribute sets. Because that fits better in their casual way of thinking, and 'can do everything you want, on any moment you want'.
I won't complain if that happens, I just prefer restrictions, but it's their game, as long as it is fun, I will play.
I think the testers responses to this system will help them decide what to do in this.
Anyway... I love FFXI, I think it is the best group MMORPG and also the best story lines of any MMORPG that is out on this day.
Dark age of Camelot did have somethings I loved and missed in FFXI, but I guess that is because it had a group limit of 8 or 10 people (i have forgotten), so you were able to take more monsters at a time (2 or 3 tanks in 1 group), Area of Effect spells / attacks was really great and often used in DaoC groups. cc was also a more important job then it was in FFXI. It seems FFXIV will go more this way, which I love!
Also what I liked and not see in FFXIV is NPC factions. I believe only humanoids had such factions, but I am not sure... Anyway, kill a certain amount of 1 faction and it would see you as agressive, kill the faction they hate and you could be neutral again and get the other faction agressive.
If you had 1 player in your group that had a bad faction standing with some enemies in the area, then he/she would get attacked on sight, sometimes it was best not to help. Some factions is better to be friends with. Those NPC factions that didn't like eachother would fight eachother at certain places, which was also fun to see.
I liked that part a lot of DaoC.
I would like if FFXIV had some NPC factions like that.
Ah well I think FFXIV future will depend a lot on the feedback of the testers. Let's hope they give good feedback.
Comments
If there is, you guys haven't managed to bring up any of them...
You can be upset that the game isn't exactly like FFXI, but don't use reasons like this to prove your point. So far it sounds good, no "lot of flaws/holes in the design". You being unable to accept this new system is the only hole so far =/.
Nothing here points to "ease of exp", more than that it points that getting exp will be harder than before.
There is a limit to how many leves you can do per day alone, you can help others with their leves as much as you want though. Encourages Grouping.
Your conclusions don't make any sense... you can dislike the system all you want, but the reasons for that are not logical. You just don't like change.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Meh...
Something about FFXIV = Wizardry doesn't like it = No one else will or should like it because they don't = nothing new.
They've been beating that drum since SE announced the game, and the most you'll get out of them is a bunch of assumptions and generalizations about how they think it's going to be... the facts never support their conclusions.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The only thing that irks me is that they keep making conclusions and evidence that their opinion is justified, although the whole issue lies in the fact that people, most of them at least, are afraid of change. New things are scary and people like to think of and point out flaws in the new ways. Those are not reasonable flaws however, because it all stems from being scared and unfamiliar with the new.
I don't think many people can avoid this kind of thinking. I'm a victim of it sometimes too, but when it comes to games I am reasonable. Some people are not this way though, and this thread is a proof of that.
If there was you know, reasonable criticism about the system then that would be fine to discuss. But now we are just trying to argue things that are not logical in the first place.
I think guildleves/quests are a good idea as long as there's still downtime between battles, and ofcourse that they're group-based. They look like they will be group based though, which is a huge relief. I hate quest leveling in other MMos because it's designed for solo play and the quests are just badly done. If FFXIV can pull off quest progression with constant grouping and well done quests/story(I think they will, even better than SWTOR. Hard to believe the people who made the FF games will make crappy WoW-like quests) that'd be amazing. Although, the quests will probably have to be either really long or random and not following a linear story, otherwise everyone will be on different quests and it'll be hard to find people with the same quest for a group.
Also, 15 people in a group just for leveling? O_o So awesome.
I hear that while some guildleves (solo ones) are going to have 15 or 30min time limits (which gives them a nice difficulty and you can't just stand around), some leves are designed to last for days, and you can combine them together for even more epic campaigns.
And no, you don't have to do them on one sitting, lol.
Let's find out first if it has mana at all shall we? Cause if it hasn't we re doomed... oh wait, maybe it has some other system. Maybe we aren't doomed if a game does their own thing. Or maybe we aren't doomed even if a game does that thing we thought as bad, as long as we actually have fun, right?
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
It does have a mana/mp system. It's been discussed. That's how people know there will be no automatic regen.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
This can be cool, though (if it is so). Having folks heading back to town means lively towns and chat and community-building.
No the design IS flawed and they are already admitting it.The point system is already a constent debate but there is OBVIOUS flaws and the reason why Sqaure is already claiming they MIGHT allow point resets.
The flaw is so obvious ONLY a non FFXI player would miss it.
In FFXI you change from WHM to WAR your stats auto change to compliment your new class.In FFXIV's design you change and NOTHING changes,you are stuck with the stats you alloted.Do i need to discuss this even firther,because i should not have to?This FXIV design is going to limit you to one GOOD class and anything you play after is VERY likely to be a very bad version of it,of course aside from the couple classes that may make use of the same stats.The FACT is that the FFXI systrm was less restricting and more complimentary,so NO this change is not for the better.
As far as turning FFXIV into a Leves/quest game,that is open for discusion.This is what we call a WOW clone,a game that directs you to entirely play the game via quests rather than a camp setup.This again is to each individuals own preference,but the fact that we already have a million quest games,and FFXI was the ONE gem on the block,why did Sqaure feel ther need to COPY everyone else?You can argue to gain more subscriptions,but that is not a good excuse for the game being better or not,that is just a money excuse.
Where i find the flaw is not weather or not we enjoy questing or camping,it is the fact that they made the EXACT same Leves all soloable,this contradicts what YOU said about it "encourages grouping",it actually does nothing of the sort.In FFXI you had a tough quest,you would form a group,there was no option to turn it into an easy solo quest.IDK maybe the argument is you like the idea of no grouping and turning a challenging quest into a solo one?This is not my idea of change for the BETTER,feel free to tell my why you think it is?
The mere fact that THIS post exists,shows MANY others have concern for some the games design as well as i do,these are CONCERNED players that i like,because they want the same as i do ,a game that is not going to go through several changes because of mistakes.Or at least acknowledge the mistakes BEFORE we get comfortable with the game then see all kinds of changes.
The relieving part is that Square is pretty smart,they are not going to pull the fanbois approach and act like there is no flaws,i guarantee there will be MANY changes to the system,they have already claimed this themselves,the whole system is being tested.
Instead of ASSUMING i don't like FFXIV or assuming i don't like change ,which is FAR from the truth,i get the feeling some people did NOT like FFXI and would rather turn the ONE gem we have into a clone of other games,like we need any more EQ/Wow clones?There is not ONE single game i can think of that did quests and leveling the way FFXI did,why can't we keep that ONE game true to it's roots,especially if we are going to call it another FF game?The GOOD thing about FFXi was it's CLASS system /Quest system and the way we leveled[camps]these are the changes FFXIV are making for the WORSE.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
See that one tidbit in my post, where I'm talking about "reasonable criticism"? Congratulations, you just found one example of what I mean. Too bad that kind of criticism gets lost in the lake of "NO MP REGEN THIS IS DISAPPOINTING" "THIS IS HOW GAME IS GOING TO WORK BASED ON FFXI AND IT IS DISAPPOINTING" threads.
Now, as far as turning FFXIV into quest game that again is not reasonable criticism. FFXI introduced the same kind of system used in WoW and it didn't become a WoW clone. This is exactly what I was talking about in the post you quoted. People keep making up conclusions and evidence that their opinion is justified.
Feel free to tell me where you're pulling these "exact same leves all soloable" and "turn tough quest into a solo quest" from... or maybe not, if you're not a lady.
The mere fact your post exists proves my earlier post.. Be afraid if you want, but you're not being reasonable that way.
What you say and what you do seem to be 2 completely different things.. you "like" change, but then you're afraid the said change will turn the game into a WoW clone or whatever. "Saying I don't like change is FAR from truth, but KEEP FFXIV THE SAME AS FFXI OR IT WILL SUCK".
You know, actions speak louder than words. If you want me to believe you, you gotta stop contradicting yourself.
But why am I even responding.. well, you brought up one good concern, so that's better than nothing.
Wizardry I have no idea why seem to be raging but I don't think it will be so bad that you think.
For instance the whole thing about the stat points, as far as I have read will seem like nothing more but merit points. So that you depending on what role you think you will be in or what you just enjoy to spend them on you can, but the skill with the "weapon" you have will still be more important. They have said so themselves in a dengeki Q&A that skill points will be more important than stats.
"Q. Is there no concept of “level” for the player characters?
A. There is a “physical level” that is related to the stats such as HP, MP, strength, intelligence, and so on, but your main skill’s rank is going to be more important. We wanted the armory system, the special system where players chance their weapons or tools to change their class, to stand out."
Source: http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/5132-famitsu-site-updates-developer-qa-battle/?s=7f1e2b56eb5a34e24dd250a98ac7c478
Edit: Of course we'll see later just how much more important that the Main skills rank will be.
It does seem that they think to put some restrictions in some way so you can't max every stat, and for what it seems worded (in another interview) they does seem to even think of not having a level or infinite or someway, maybe just me who sees that because it would be cool.
Atleast many you might think.
Then the Guildleaves, do you really want to go through just sitting at one camp all the time? 'Cause that is what it sounds like. Guildleaves are made so that it would make it a little easier to level, while still being able to make it a little tougher, if you understand. :P It makes you and your party to need to travel, to fight on the monsters/enemies turf and rules.
And while it is easy to think that these Guildleaves will just be simple quests, seeing as they are thinking and has already said that they will take from 30 minutes up to days to do it seems to be something more than going around killing 10 rats. Ofcourse it will probably be kill 10 rats in the beginning, but in an interview they said that they are going to implement more complex guildleaves, which in my little world atleast means more complex than going from monster to monster just killing
Yes. I'm in support of Guildleves though, only if they do it right. Does anyone know if the group Guildleves will have more benfits than the solo ones? If group Guildleves don't have a huge advantage and aren't higher quality over the solo ones then this will be a WoW clone, everyone will just do the solo ones.
This will be the first game I buy on release date, I'm so hyped for it, I just hope it doesn't stray too far off the way FFXI was. If it has the same feeling FFXI has or even improves on it this will be the best MMo ever for me.
That's true. We don't know yet, but I'll eat my hat if soloers can get similar rewards as groupers. I mean, I'll possibly faint from the surprise.
That wouldn't be Square-Enix at all. Like saying Blizzard would make soloing impossible in WoW.
One thing I do know though. You can only do a set amount of guildleves before you have to wait. Or.. you can join a group and be able to do as many leves as you want that way.
So really, even if people soloed, they'd Have to group up after an hour or 2. SE made it so casuals (those who have 1-2h of playtime a day) can progress, the rest still make progress via partying.
This game should be a NEW game and there should be major changes to the old game other wise why even try making a new game.
If its not new and exciting why would people play when you can just play the same old game .
But this is just my thoughts.
This is taken from a discussion with Producer Hiromichi Tanaka and Director Nobuaki Komoto
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...
- I got to try out the Guildleve system, and it feels like a great way to manage your play time. You can complete a quest within 30 minutes and then start a new one right away. It feels like Assault in FFXI, where you can enjoy some casual challenges divided into easy to manage chunks. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it feels like a system really designed around light, casual play.
Komoto: That's true, but I wouldn't say it's just a system for light play. What we wanted to do is design something that casual players could enjoy. That entails making it simple and easy at first. However, while the rules are simple early on, future quests add more rules and more variations to Guildleve while at the same time putting players up against tougher monsters. That's the kind of system we're considering.
...
- Will players be able to solo even some high-level Guildleves?
Komoto: We hope to allow that by use of the selectable difficulty levels. That isn't to say there won't be any party-related Guildleves, but we want to allow solo players to enjoy Guildleve as much as possible.
- Speaking of which, is 6 members the average party size?
Komoto: This time, we've set the maximum for parties at 15 members -- almost the size of an alliance. However, they aren't divided into units. A party of 3 is fine, a party of 8 is fine, and we don't want to impose any standards from our end. Instead of forcing minimum party sizes on players, we want to allow them to freedom to put together any group they wish.
- I was surprised to see that Teleport and Warp were available to every Class right from the start!
Komoto: There will be costs attached to those abilities, but that hasn't been implemented yet in the alpha. We hope to make it so players with limited time can travel quickly, but also add elements that players with time to spare can enjoy if they decide to travel back on foot. We are looking to provide enough warp points to make these abilities a real help for players short on time. As for costs involved, we don't plan anything really restricting, and hope to keep it down to almost nothing.
...
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@WSIMike:
Don't take what Hyanmen is saying at face value... I think he's seeing only what he wants to see & ignore the bad. Has stated above, rank means nothing as they are going to be scalable.
a.k.a. It IS going to be a very soloable game. Rush to end game solo then grind the few "raid" leves.
Face it... Instant travel, scalable leves, casual play time friendly, etc. It wont attract the same people than FFXI & those old vets are going to be drown in a sea of "newer" MMO players crowd.
I'm with Deadline & Wizardry so far. Their concerns are valid as far as what we know up until now. We'll have to wait & see where it is going from here. Infos are just starting to get out & i'm still hopefull.
@Hyanmen:
I like what you have to say most of the time, but you really need to step back & see the whole picture on this one. Right now you come off as the ultimate fanboi.
/cheers
edit: SE hasn't been very clear as far as instancing is concerned too. Some of the wording & concepts they have talked about as me a bit worried.
You see - that's part of the problem. Soloers will be grouping not because they enjoy grouping, but to get the carrot for grouping. They will be unfriendly, unco-operative, and incompetent.
It's not that no one will be grouping - it's that the grouping experience (particularly with PUGs) will not be fun.
The only way to prevent that is to make it clear to prospective players that a game is not amenable to soloing. It sounds to me like SE is moving in the wrong direction.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
If players are that opposed to grouping then they'll just quit when they realise that the game is dependent on it. It doesn't really sound much different to FFXI's regime system which allows limited soloing as well... I don't see a problem there.
You know, I assume that if people don't like something, they won't do it.
If people don't like grouping, and the game forces them to do it, they will (sometimes) throw a hissy fit in the forums and then quit. Nothing new about that.
Those who stick around are people who enjoy the game. That's not rocket science.
And if those people will not be able to deal with groups, they will keep soloing- and leave the groupers alone.
I mean sure, there was a carrot waiting for me in WoW when I got to certain level, but I didn't like soloing so what do ya know, I quit. It's gotta be one hell of a carrot to keep someone playing if they don't like it.
I don't see the problem here.
Criticism accepted. Honestly I'm just looking for an actually good debate on this one. It's gotten better in the last few posts, but it still leaves room for too many assumptions. It's hard to be objective like that.
I'm guessing you haven't done dungeon PUGs in WoW (a very much solo-oriented game until level cap). Sprints through dungeons with no conversation and little aggro managment. The new cross server dungeon queues make it even worse. Soloers group in WoW - to get the gear they want.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
It doesn't start that way. People have to like the game to play it further. At some point they start to get obsessed and do things even if they don't enjoy it anymore.
Such is the case of soloers grouping at the level cap. Just gotta get you hooked and then you'll do just about anything.
BUT, you can't accomplish that if the people don't like the game in the first place.
I'd also point out that WoW's game mechanics aren't really grouping-friendly in the first place. Everyone acts like an individual, even in group. Spamming skills and worrying about your own efficiency takes over cooperation. Fast combat speed to not leave any room for "unnecessary" socializing.
Even though I'm not thrilled about contributing to the off-topicness going on (wasn't this originally about XIV's lack of MP regen?), I feel like this must be asked: What is the difference between a game where you camp and one where you quest?
If we're talking from a purely solo standpoint, you can either stay in one area killing the same mobs over and over, or you can move from area to area killing different mobs. But because of the time it takes to travel to another area and learn the layout of the area and the spawn times, as well as learning the different strategies used against a different family of mobs, it's more efficient to stay in the same area. A demand for quest-based advancement is little more than a demand for a compensation for people who want to fight in varied locales.
Problem is, that compensation increased to the point where it's now clearly the more efficient means of advancement in many games. Sit and grind on mobs that you don't have a quest for and you feel like you're wasting time that could be better spent killing specific spiders and ogres for a greater reward (exp, money, items unobtainable elsewhere) and getting more sightseeing done too. Not to mention reading up on the lore, if you're into that. However, is that such a bad thing? Is it bad to say that people who travel around and jump through some dialogue hoops get rewarded more than those who take an approach that takes less effort and less risk?
No, what's bad is when the quest rewards push the efficiency of soloing high enough to rival group rewards. Being in a group is inherantly inconvenient—dealing with chronic AFKers, being unable to go at your own pace, bickering over tactics or loot, tolerating people who are just plain awful at their role—so the rewards need to be substantially greater than solo rewards in order to make it worthwhile. Jacking up the quest rewards throws group grinding right out the window. FFXI made this almost an impossibility by including virtually no solo quests for exp, and generally making it obnoxiously difficult to solo at all.
It looks like they are now poised to make group quests the main method of advancement, by making it more rewarding and more convenient than group grinding at a camp. I pose the question: how does this make the game worse? Groups who are willing to deal with varied objectives and obstacles should be rewarded more than those who abandon all risk and pull the same 4 mobs back to their static camp, no? "But I like sitting in the same spot" isn't a good enough answer either, because leaving the group grind as the most efficient method of advancement actively discourages people from bothering to do the more innovative and fun guildleves. If FFXI's radical difference made it good, it was the forced grouping that did so, not the forced monotony.