Cash shops are obviously successful. But does success make it right, and for the benefit of the game (and by extension, the gamers)? Well, that depends on exactly what is being sold.
Asking for cash for items that give you an advantage over other players in whatever way (combat items, expanding inventory/house, faster travel etc) would be a deal breaker for me. Why should I get places slower/have less space/get spanked lots when I play the same game as them? Vice versa, if the item brings no advantage over and above the sheer fact of owning it, then so what?
That Celestial Steed does give an in-game advantage to those who buy it. Free mounts for all of your characters present and future.
Posters here have defended it by saying 'well, it's not really more than about 150g per character', but that is just the first game-advantage item Blizzard has put in the shop. What is next?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Cash shops are obviously successful. But does success make it right, and for the benefit of the game (and by extension, the gamers)? Well, that depends on exactly what is being sold.
Asking for cash for items that give you an advantage over other players in whatever way (combat items, expanding inventory/house, faster travel etc) would be a deal breaker for me. Why should I get places slower/have less space/get spanked lots when I play the same game as them? Vice versa, if the item brings no advantage over and above the sheer fact of owning it, then so what?
That Celestial Steed does give an in-game advantage to those who buy it. Free mounts for all of your characters present and future.
Posters here have defended it by saying 'well, it's not really more than about 150g per character', but that is just the first game-advantage item Blizzard has put in the shop. What is next?
My bet would be experiencing enhancing potions that work from 1-80. The arguements defending it will be "well there's already heirloom gear", or "the real game starts at 80 anyways".
They're slowly lurching forward to more and more game impacting RMT. They nudge the line forward just enough to upset alot of people, but not enough to make many of them upset enough to leave. Once things have settled down, they do it again. Over time, they've slowly been pushing it more, and more, hoping that the overall playerbase doesn't notice that those little inches they've taken over time are starting toi add up to a mile.
This is why it bothers me so much, because I know where it's headed. If they stopped right where they're at right now, I might be able to live with it... but I know that it's only going to get worse.
I agree completely with the OP when it comes to cash shops in P2P games. Creating a unique look for your avatar (social clothing) and collecting cosmetic items is definitely content in an MMO, and I feel cheated if I have to pay for that in addition to the subscription fee. If I pay a subscription fee, I pay for a service, and if that service doesn't include all access to all the content in the game, I'm out.
I don't really care what they charge for in F2P games, as I don't play them, but cash shops in P2P games are a gamebreaker for me if they include items unattainable elsewhere. I can actually live with in-game currency and xp-potions being sold, though. Not because I'd use that, but because it removes a lot of the market for gold-sellers and levelling services.
One of the most common defenses I've heard in favor of cash shops is the idea that if the items for sale are purely cosmetic, i.e. they don't affect gameplay, then who cares?
Well, I've said something like this, though I added that such items shouldn't be iconic to the game's IP or look more awesome than stuff you can get in game (the latter usually overlaps the former). In most games if a Cash Shop had a hat with bunny ears, then I don't think it matters. On the other hand, if a Star Wars game made it so you had to pay for lightsabers of a particular color, Jedi Robes, trooper armor, a Han Solo-LIKE outfit, etc, then that would be beyond the pale to me. I am, of course talking about P2P games with cash shops.
I will say that maintaining a cash shop at that level takes a tremendous amount of discipline. Blizzard doesn't seem able to do that given the Celestial Horse mount (looks better than all other mounts). Given that, I'm not sure what company could be responsible here.
Why do you care if someone choses to pay for a cosmetic hat? It has absolutely no effect on you, so I fail to see how its an invalid argument.
The dumber argument is the "F2P games are pay to win." In reality all MMOs are pay to win. The top players in P2P games are the ones buying the most gold from China, yet everyone just ignores that. P2P games give the illusion that everyone is equal, in reality the winner is who puts the most time in, and who buys the most 3rd party gold/items.
Interesting, you use an even dumber and more blind argument in order to justify your argument.
First, you assume every illegal gold seller is from China.
This is an internet forum, I'm not going to waste my time being politically correct. You chose to ignore my argument and arbitrarily attack a petty thing like that. The millons of dollars going into the Chinese gold industry speaks for itself.
Second, you assume every top player in every P2P game has to buy 3rd party gold/items, a competition of spending money in order to achieve. Seems you're trying to place the F2P reality into the P2P genre to justify yourself.
All arguments are based on assumptions. Do you have solid evidence that every top F2P player bought items? The -fact- is that theres a multi-million dollar gold industry for WoW alone. You are choosing to close your eyes and pretend it doesn't exist because it doesn't fit your preconcieved narrative that P2P games have a level playing field. When I read your first sentance I thought you would at least give a single reason why you think this argument is flawed, apparently you just pasted what i wrote and said it was false.
By the way the time argument is only valid initially (as in before people start hitting the level cap), thanks to the linear nature of theme park MMOs and how it makes them extremely fragile in content length. These people with more time will hit the level cap, hit the end game, and complete it, then go around in forums complaining about lack of content for their 24/7 gameplay. At that point the casual will also be there competing with the hardcore player. This environment will take a lot more time to happen in a F2P MMO because of the money factor that does impact gameplay progression in all aspects, not just your assumption of virtual currency.
Again, even powerleveling is a gigantic industry. These companies fill hundreds of orders a day to level characters for money. But I guess my argument is stupid because you choose to ignore these things and live in your fantasy ideal world where P2P is equal. If you have any real evidence to go against the dozens of multi-million dollar P2P item sellers, I'd like to see it. Until then, don't call my arguments dumb or blind then refuse to post anything actually substantial.
I'm not pretending it doesn't exist, you're pretending the totality of the top players use it based on a multi million revenue number in a game that also features a multi million player base number. And by no means it is mandatory in order to compete in the end game because you can get everything you need from the game itself and not some item mall with stat enhancing potions or better equipment upgrading tools. Except for some vanity items, which are the actual point of this thread (not the point of this post, but I already said they are as bad as any other item, twisting RPG elements into money making for instant gratification).
As I mentioned, it is possible to compete in both games even if you are a casual player, but the F2P counterpart will take a lot more time if you aren't willing to spend real money and you may need items that cost real money, which you might buy from someone else but that doesn't change the fact that real money was spent to acquire that item.
There is a market for every rule breach by the way - hacking, botting, gold buying, phishing, powerleveling, etc.
A comparison of blindness in arguments would be me saying *every* top player in F2P games spend money (which I kind of did, but they are just closer to that "reality"). Even though some do directly or indirectly (buying some real money item for in-game gold doesn't change the fact real money was spent in the process, except that is was spent by someone else), there will be those up there that never used anything from the cash shop. And I could be defending my blindness saying how cash shops are a highly successful revenue model and trend in the market that even the behemoth has partially incorporated on top of its monthly fee. And I hope you're not delusional enough to deny that this percentage of money usage in end game is higher in F2P games than P2P games, because of the cash shop exclusivity method of acquiring fact and the indirect way of performing cash shop purchases.
Where am I going with this? Ruling a game out purely on the basis that it has a cash shop is nothing short of throwing your toys out of the pram, jumping up and down whilst stamping your feet, and generally acting like a nonce. If the cash shop detracts from your personal game experience, though, then who could argue if you never even spoke of it again?
If you willingly play (and pay for) a game that has a cash shop while having no intention of ever buying anything from it, then you are accepting being a second-class citizen in that game.
Yeah so? A fair price to pay for playing for free. In fact, a MAJORITY (there is an article confirming this posted earlier in this forum) of players don't pay so there is a large pop of "second class" citizens.
Cash shops are obviously successful. But does success make it right, and for the benefit of the game (and by extension, the gamers)? Well, that depends on exactly what is being sold.
Asking for cash for items that give you an advantage over other players in whatever way (combat items, expanding inventory/house, faster travel etc) would be a deal breaker for me. Why should I get places slower/have less space/get spanked lots when I play the same game as them? Vice versa, if the item brings no advantage over and above the sheer fact of owning it, then so what? So you have a cool hat? So what? So you have a pet I don't, but it doesn't do a damn thing. So what?
Where am I going with this? Ruling a game out purely on the basis that it has a cash shop is nothing short of throwing your toys out of the pram, jumping up and down whilst stamping your feet, and generally acting like a nonce. If the cash shop detracts from your personal game experience, though, then who could argue if you never even spoke of it again?
RMT, whether it be mechanic effecting, or vanity, ruins the atmosphere of the game for me. It reminds me that I am gated from content unless I buy it, every time I see someone with said items. As such, it considerably impacts my enjoyment of said game.
Why shouldn't I avoid RMT games if it affects my enjoyment of the game? You may not hold the same view of what RMT does and does not impact your enjoyment of the game, but surely you can agree that it's completely reasoanble to not continue to play a game if it's not fun. It's just that simple for me, RMT makes a game unenjoyable for me.
You should. However, bilzz & other companies should still do RMT if a) it makes them more money, and b) it does nto reduce, or even INCREASE the enjoyment of a majority of players. This is probably precisely why Blizz is doing it.
To be honest, i like the celestrial steed and I bought it. So my enjoyment of the game GOES UP because of it. In fact, i prefer this 10x over mounts obtained from loot cards that goes up to hundred of dollars on ebay.
Yeah so? A fair price to pay for playing for free. In fact, a MAJORITY (there is an article confirming this posted earlier in this forum) of players don't pay so there is a large pop of "second class" citizens.
Re-read what I wrote.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
You should. However, bilzz & other companies should still do RMT if a) it makes them more money, and b) it does nto reduce, or even INCREASE the enjoyment of a majority of players. This is probably precisely why Blizz is doing it.
To be honest, i like the celestrial steed and I bought it. So my enjoyment of the game GOES UP because of it. In fact, i prefer this 10x over mounts obtained from loot cards that goes up to hundred of dollars on ebay.
Eh, so if 40% of the playerbase doesn't like it and enjoy the game less because of it, you think it is ok?
Generally, I'd say things that increase enjoyment and produce basically no unhappiness are good to add to a game (assuming they don't damage long-term enjoyment plans). Things that make some people happy and others unhappy are probably unavoidable, but should be avoided as much as is reasonable (though things that vastly improve the game for the overwhelming majority are probably worth pissing a few people off for). I'm don't think the Celestial Steed meets this metric, though it probably doesn't piss anyone off enough to quit the game; it doesn't help though.
Frankly, you are on sketchy enjoyment ground when you provide for cash things that are normally obtained in the game. This CAN be ok, imho, in some circumstances. If those things look manifestly better than all in-game options to most people, then that's a major problem. The Celestial Steed is a bad way to go. Next we might see new hair styles and other customizable looks that you have to pay cash for. I honestly don't think tabards and overcloaks (the latter being added in Cataclysm) are that far away given the Steed. Looking properly awesome* in an P2P MMO is part of the subscription fee, imho, and it is improper to require the forking over a cash to get this. I do think Blizzard will eventually suffer for slowly adding these things in to their item store.
One has to remember that the big advantage Blizzard has now has no really good competition, hence they are in a sense a monopoly and can do things that normally wouldn't be tolerated well. They have some principles, but the fact there's no decent feedback from the buyers (due to pseudo-monopoly status) means that those principles are getting eroded bit by bit. There's a lot of stuff Blizzard could do to make money without losing many subscribers because of the current market.
*"properly awesome" means appropriate for the genre and IP. The original collector edition pets and Pandaran pet are examples of things that aren't part of the "properly awesome" category, imho. The Celestial Steed is different. Similarly iconic and awesome tabards/overcloaks/other looks would be something that is wrong.
To be honest, i like the celestrial steed and I bought it. So my enjoyment of the game GOES UP because of it. In fact, i prefer this 10x over mounts obtained from loot cards that goes up to hundred of dollars on ebay.
Would you not enjoy it more if you had earned it from a quest chain or defeating an uber boss?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
To be honest, i like the celestrial steed and I bought it. So my enjoyment of the game GOES UP because of it. In fact, i prefer this 10x over mounts obtained from loot cards that goes up to hundred of dollars on ebay.
Would you not enjoy it more if you had earned it from a quest chain or defeating an uber boss?
I wouldn't necessarily. Often times in respect to something like that I'm far more concerned with having it than saying I went through hell to get it. If I have to go through a quest chain that takes me three months to complete once I recieve that item it works the exact same as if they offered it in a cash shop and I used my hard earned money to get it.
I don't get wrapped up enough to spend extra money on a premium game because I choose not to but I don't begrudge anyone for doing so and really don't see that the types of things we are forced to do in game make having those things better. I actually have often times been underwhelmed by that carrot I chased for so long.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
To be honest, i like the celestrial steed and I bought it. So my enjoyment of the game GOES UP because of it. In fact, i prefer this 10x over mounts obtained from loot cards that goes up to hundred of dollars on ebay.
Would you not enjoy it more if you had earned it from a quest chain or defeating an uber boss?
Sure. But i would enjoy it LESS if i don't buy it. The available choices are buying it, or NOT buying it. There is no third choice of earning it from a quest chain.
I would enjoy it more too if Blizzard expand the ICC raid dungeon by 2x in terms of content but they are NOT doing that either. Point is, we don't get hypotheticals, we make choices within what is offered to us.
You should. However, bilzz & other companies should still do RMT if a) it makes them more money, and b) it does nto reduce, or even INCREASE the enjoyment of a majority of players. This is probably precisely why Blizz is doing it.
To be honest, i like the celestrial steed and I bought it. So my enjoyment of the game GOES UP because of it. In fact, i prefer this 10x over mounts obtained from loot cards that goes up to hundred of dollars on ebay.
Eh, so if 40% of the playerbase doesn't like it and enjoy the game less because of it, you think it is ok?
In Blizz point of view, if the number of people quitting are small, it is ok. You don't know if 40% of the playerbase are unhappy about it. I can easily say that 80% of the players are happy to be able to buy a new shiny cool mount.
Plus, from MY point of view, i wouldn't care less of what 40% of the players think unless that includes a majority of my in-game friends. If I am happy, i will continue to sub & play the game.
To be honest, i like the celestrial steed and I bought it. So my enjoyment of the game GOES UP because of it. In fact, i prefer this 10x over mounts obtained from loot cards that goes up to hundred of dollars on ebay.
Would you not enjoy it more if you had earned it from a quest chain or defeating an uber boss?
Sure. But i would enjoy it LESS if i don't buy it. The available choices are buying it, or NOT buying it. There is no third choice of earning it from a quest chain.
There would be - if people didn't buy stuff from cash shops. That content would go into the game to be earned.
I would enjoy it more too if Blizzard expand the ICC raid dungeon by 2x in terms of content but they are NOT doing that either. Point is, we don't get hypotheticals, we make choices within what is offered to us.
Businesses respond to reactions from their customers. The more they sell in the shop - the more stuff they will put in the shop, rather than as quest rewards and boss drops.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I completely agree that "novelty" items in mmos are important and have impact to the game world. Having played pre-cu swg, I'm well aware of the competition that exists between players for "fluff". Heck, I think I spent nearly 10 million credits (more credits than the majority of players would ever make at that point in time) just to get a complete set of the black and white spaceship pictures to decorate my shop. I bought them because a full set was rare and nicely enhanced my shop, thus giving me a slight advantage against my competitors.
However, I apparently am among the supposed few who don't really care one way or another if someone buys their way to the top. It doesn't affect me a bit, and I'll probably still outclass them in game wealth no matter how much cash they spend. It's a total shame that people like the OP can't just let it go and play their own game without so much needless worrying about others. Makes me wonder if these are the same type of people who spy on their neighbors in the hopes of catching them doing something illegal. Far more pathetic behavior than buying some digital gear imo.
You should. However, bilzz & other companies should still do RMT if a) it makes them more money, and b) it does nto reduce, or even INCREASE the enjoyment of a majority of players. This is probably precisely why Blizz is doing it.
To be honest, i like the celestrial steed and I bought it. So my enjoyment of the game GOES UP because of it. In fact, i prefer this 10x over mounts obtained from loot cards that goes up to hundred of dollars on ebay.
Eh, so if 40% of the playerbase doesn't like it and enjoy the game less because of it, you think it is ok?
In Blizz point of view, if the number of people quitting are small, it is ok. You don't know if 40% of the playerbase are unhappy about it. I can easily say that 80% of the players are happy to be able to buy a new shiny cool mount.
Plus, from MY point of view, i wouldn't care less of what 40% of the players think unless that includes a majority of my in-game friends. If I am happy, i will continue to sub & play the game.
I wasn't saying 40% are unhappy. I was saying 40% isn't a MAJORITY and you were using the majority as a justification here. I was questioning the criterion you were using.
Now, I could cite internet polls showing 30-40% of the people don't think it is cool, but that's rather anecdotal.
As for your point of view, that seems a bit short-cited. How other people act affects the game you play. If you and your circle of friends continue to play, but WoW loses 10 million subs, then that will impact you a LOT. Since you'd likely misinterpret that statement, let me clarify that I was using the 10 million number to illustrate a point.
I've no doubt that Blizzard decided they'd make more money doing this than they'd lose. I'm sure that's what went on. That's very different from whether it was right or wrong for them to do this. Like I said in my much longer post, I am sure part of what makes Blizzard capable of doing this is their near monopoly-status in the MMO world (not because they don't have competition, but because the competition is so small and generally poorly developed). I think it might set up some unhappiness that will result in a number of players leaving more easily down the road.
I don't understand all the CS hate posts/threads. If you do not like it, then don't play a game you already know has it. It is silly.
I dont mind CS's that give any type of bonus. If I'm against it being to strong, ill go to another game. Sticking around and whining about it would not help me a bit, and it would make me seem petty/naive.
If you want F2P, then CS's are part of it. If you dont understand why they need CS to be part of their game, then you REALLY need to take an economics class, or move out of mom and dad's house.
My god has horns.... nah, I don't think he is real either.
Would you not enjoy it more if you had earned it from a quest chain or defeating an uber boss?
There are probably dozens of mounts in the game one can get in that way. I haven't bothered even thinking about trying for most of them. It really isn't worth the effort to me. OTOH, getting the Kirin Tor pet was worth it for me enough to do it on 5 toons.
Would I mind it if that pet were purchasable instead? Nope. Don't mind that there are purchasable pets now. Don't have any real intention of buying them or the mount, but I'm cheap. I don't blame Blizzard for my quirks.
I don't object to MMOs that have RMT from existing. They are a valid revenue model, which has it's own merits. For me however, I detest RMT because I feel it destracts from the overall gaming environment of the virtual world, so I will simply avoid MMOs with RMT.
You can try to justify it from your view as much as you want. You're free to accept RMT. I and others however, are free to detest it and prefer it be kept well away from our P2P MMOs.
/agree
It seems to be an increasingly alien concept to people these days that people might actually like to acquire items in a game by actually *playing the game*, and not pulling out the credit card to "recharge my credits". I'm looking to be entertained in a virtual world where everything and anything is available for me to acquire purely through my own effort - should I choose it's worth my time to get. Sometimes it's not.. but at least it comes down purely to making a decision... not making a decision, then having to make sure I have enough credits to buy it.
When I start a new MMO I'm looking to play a game in a complete virtual world. I'm not looking to shop in a virtual mall with mobs and levels, using real money to buy individual virtual items.
And again.. to me the whole "it's only fluff" is a very short-sighted argument, used many times, I find, by people who won't see beyond their own noses. "I don't want it, so it doesn't affect me and I don't care if they charge for it" seems to be the mindset. Of course, it's easy to be dismissive of something when it doesn't affect you personally.
However, I would wager that many of those same people would feel quite differently if a number of items they wanted *were* only available by pulling out the credit card. Suddenly, their "F2P MMO" isn't so free... They would be left with the choice of "pull out the credit card and keep spending more money to keep up" or "not be able to play the way I want to". I wonder how they would react to that? I would, again, wager they wouldn't be quite so receptive to it. Would be interesting to see the mental gymnastics as they attempted to rationalize it away.
Thing is, there are people who enjoy collecting those fluff items... so for them, the cost of playing the game in a way that *they* enjoy ends up costing them more. "You never have to pay a dime unless you like to collect things that other consider "fluff"" is a rather lop-sided setup to me.
Which, again, is why I prefer and always will argue that a flat sub fee that everyone pays regardless of playstyle or what they do or don't want in the game is the only fair way to go. Whether you want to raid, quest, craft, PvP, decorate your house, collect every "fluff item" the game offers, or just twiddle your thumbs, you pay no more or less than anyone else. That is a payment method that regards all players equally. I never have to worry if that next piece of gear, or even some random pet I want "just because" is going to cost me more... because I don't have to spend another dime for it. I need only *play the game* to obtain it.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Which, again, is why I prefer and always will argue that a flat sub fee that everyone pays regardless of playstyle or what they do or don't want in the game is the only fair way to go. Whether you want to raid, quest, craft, PvP, decorate your house, collect every "fluff item" the game offers, or just twiddle your thumbs, you pay no more or less than anyone else. That is a payment method that regards all players equally. I never have to worry if that next piece of gear, or even some random pet I want "just because" is going to cost me more... because I don't have to spend another dime for it. I need only *play the game* to obtain it.
Absolutely. It is very much about fairness. Everyone playing a game should have the same opportunity to experience the content.
If that mount had been put in as a reward for defeating Arthas - everyone who had one would be hailed as a hero and admired. As it stands now - all owning one says is "Hey, I had $25 to burn." Whoopie. Grats.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
If that mount had been put in as a reward for defeating Arthas - everyone who had one would be hailed as a hero and admired. As it stands now - all owning one says is "Hey, I had $25 to burn." Whoopie. Grats.
Which, again, is why I prefer and always will argue that a flat sub fee that everyone pays regardless of playstyle or what they do or don't want in the game is the only fair way to go. Whether you want to raid, quest, craft, PvP, decorate your house, collect every "fluff item" the game offers, or just twiddle your thumbs, you pay no more or less than anyone else. That is a payment method that regards all players equally. I never have to worry if that next piece of gear, or even some random pet I want "just because" is going to cost me more... because I don't have to spend another dime for it. I need only *play the game* to obtain it.
Absolutely. It is very much about fairness. Everyone playing a game should have the same opportunity to experience the content.
If that mount had been put in as a reward for defeating Arthas - everyone who had one would be hailed as a hero and admired. As it stands now - all owning one says is "Hey, I had $25 to burn." Whoopie. Grats.
While I agree that putting a price on every reward leads to a spiral of irrational expending, I find funny to say that the current reward for time spent in game is fair, for some people time is as constraining as for others money is. If it is need to grind 20 hrs for an item, for somebody who gets over 30$ an hour, thats pretty much 600$, and even if he wants to play for it, in some ocassions that is just not possible. The real fairness is that everybody plays the same time, paying the same money, that way probably time sinks wouldn't be necessary and developers could have an easier life.
It seems to be an increasingly alien concept to people these days that people might actually like to acquire items in a game by actually *playing the game*, and not pulling out the credit card to "recharge my credits".
Really? I see the crux of the discussion as something entirely different. Nobody that I know about is complaining that there are in-game items and achievements you can acquire through game-play. The argument I'm seeing is whether or not other ways of getting things are anathema or not.
I believe the thing you're discussing is so widely accepted that nobody is really bothering to talk about it. What is there to discuss really?
Comments
That Celestial Steed does give an in-game advantage to those who buy it. Free mounts for all of your characters present and future.
Posters here have defended it by saying 'well, it's not really more than about 150g per character', but that is just the first game-advantage item Blizzard has put in the shop. What is next?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
My bet would be experiencing enhancing potions that work from 1-80. The arguements defending it will be "well there's already heirloom gear", or "the real game starts at 80 anyways".
They're slowly lurching forward to more and more game impacting RMT. They nudge the line forward just enough to upset alot of people, but not enough to make many of them upset enough to leave. Once things have settled down, they do it again. Over time, they've slowly been pushing it more, and more, hoping that the overall playerbase doesn't notice that those little inches they've taken over time are starting toi add up to a mile.
This is why it bothers me so much, because I know where it's headed. If they stopped right where they're at right now, I might be able to live with it... but I know that it's only going to get worse.
I agree completely with the OP when it comes to cash shops in P2P games. Creating a unique look for your avatar (social clothing) and collecting cosmetic items is definitely content in an MMO, and I feel cheated if I have to pay for that in addition to the subscription fee. If I pay a subscription fee, I pay for a service, and if that service doesn't include all access to all the content in the game, I'm out.
I don't really care what they charge for in F2P games, as I don't play them, but cash shops in P2P games are a gamebreaker for me if they include items unattainable elsewhere. I can actually live with in-game currency and xp-potions being sold, though. Not because I'd use that, but because it removes a lot of the market for gold-sellers and levelling services.
Well, I've said something like this, though I added that such items shouldn't be iconic to the game's IP or look more awesome than stuff you can get in game (the latter usually overlaps the former). In most games if a Cash Shop had a hat with bunny ears, then I don't think it matters. On the other hand, if a Star Wars game made it so you had to pay for lightsabers of a particular color, Jedi Robes, trooper armor, a Han Solo-LIKE outfit, etc, then that would be beyond the pale to me. I am, of course talking about P2P games with cash shops.
I will say that maintaining a cash shop at that level takes a tremendous amount of discipline. Blizzard doesn't seem able to do that given the Celestial Horse mount (looks better than all other mounts). Given that, I'm not sure what company could be responsible here.
I'm not pretending it doesn't exist, you're pretending the totality of the top players use it based on a multi million revenue number in a game that also features a multi million player base number. And by no means it is mandatory in order to compete in the end game because you can get everything you need from the game itself and not some item mall with stat enhancing potions or better equipment upgrading tools. Except for some vanity items, which are the actual point of this thread (not the point of this post, but I already said they are as bad as any other item, twisting RPG elements into money making for instant gratification).
As I mentioned, it is possible to compete in both games even if you are a casual player, but the F2P counterpart will take a lot more time if you aren't willing to spend real money and you may need items that cost real money, which you might buy from someone else but that doesn't change the fact that real money was spent to acquire that item.
There is a market for every rule breach by the way - hacking, botting, gold buying, phishing, powerleveling, etc.
A comparison of blindness in arguments would be me saying *every* top player in F2P games spend money (which I kind of did, but they are just closer to that "reality"). Even though some do directly or indirectly (buying some real money item for in-game gold doesn't change the fact real money was spent in the process, except that is was spent by someone else), there will be those up there that never used anything from the cash shop. And I could be defending my blindness saying how cash shops are a highly successful revenue model and trend in the market that even the behemoth has partially incorporated on top of its monthly fee. And I hope you're not delusional enough to deny that this percentage of money usage in end game is higher in F2P games than P2P games, because of the cash shop exclusivity method of acquiring fact and the indirect way of performing cash shop purchases.
Yeah so? A fair price to pay for playing for free. In fact, a MAJORITY (there is an article confirming this posted earlier in this forum) of players don't pay so there is a large pop of "second class" citizens.
You should. However, bilzz & other companies should still do RMT if a) it makes them more money, and b) it does nto reduce, or even INCREASE the enjoyment of a majority of players. This is probably precisely why Blizz is doing it.
To be honest, i like the celestrial steed and I bought it. So my enjoyment of the game GOES UP because of it. In fact, i prefer this 10x over mounts obtained from loot cards that goes up to hundred of dollars on ebay.
Re-read what I wrote.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Eh, so if 40% of the playerbase doesn't like it and enjoy the game less because of it, you think it is ok?
Generally, I'd say things that increase enjoyment and produce basically no unhappiness are good to add to a game (assuming they don't damage long-term enjoyment plans). Things that make some people happy and others unhappy are probably unavoidable, but should be avoided as much as is reasonable (though things that vastly improve the game for the overwhelming majority are probably worth pissing a few people off for). I'm don't think the Celestial Steed meets this metric, though it probably doesn't piss anyone off enough to quit the game; it doesn't help though.
Frankly, you are on sketchy enjoyment ground when you provide for cash things that are normally obtained in the game. This CAN be ok, imho, in some circumstances. If those things look manifestly better than all in-game options to most people, then that's a major problem. The Celestial Steed is a bad way to go. Next we might see new hair styles and other customizable looks that you have to pay cash for. I honestly don't think tabards and overcloaks (the latter being added in Cataclysm) are that far away given the Steed. Looking properly awesome* in an P2P MMO is part of the subscription fee, imho, and it is improper to require the forking over a cash to get this. I do think Blizzard will eventually suffer for slowly adding these things in to their item store.
One has to remember that the big advantage Blizzard has now has no really good competition, hence they are in a sense a monopoly and can do things that normally wouldn't be tolerated well. They have some principles, but the fact there's no decent feedback from the buyers (due to pseudo-monopoly status) means that those principles are getting eroded bit by bit. There's a lot of stuff Blizzard could do to make money without losing many subscribers because of the current market.
*"properly awesome" means appropriate for the genre and IP. The original collector edition pets and Pandaran pet are examples of things that aren't part of the "properly awesome" category, imho. The Celestial Steed is different. Similarly iconic and awesome tabards/overcloaks/other looks would be something that is wrong.
Would you not enjoy it more if you had earned it from a quest chain or defeating an uber boss?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I wouldn't necessarily. Often times in respect to something like that I'm far more concerned with having it than saying I went through hell to get it. If I have to go through a quest chain that takes me three months to complete once I recieve that item it works the exact same as if they offered it in a cash shop and I used my hard earned money to get it.
I don't get wrapped up enough to spend extra money on a premium game because I choose not to but I don't begrudge anyone for doing so and really don't see that the types of things we are forced to do in game make having those things better. I actually have often times been underwhelmed by that carrot I chased for so long.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Sure. But i would enjoy it LESS if i don't buy it. The available choices are buying it, or NOT buying it. There is no third choice of earning it from a quest chain.
I would enjoy it more too if Blizzard expand the ICC raid dungeon by 2x in terms of content but they are NOT doing that either. Point is, we don't get hypotheticals, we make choices within what is offered to us.
In Blizz point of view, if the number of people quitting are small, it is ok. You don't know if 40% of the playerbase are unhappy about it. I can easily say that 80% of the players are happy to be able to buy a new shiny cool mount.
Plus, from MY point of view, i wouldn't care less of what 40% of the players think unless that includes a majority of my in-game friends. If I am happy, i will continue to sub & play the game.
Businesses respond to reactions from their customers. The more they sell in the shop - the more stuff they will put in the shop, rather than as quest rewards and boss drops.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I completely agree that "novelty" items in mmos are important and have impact to the game world. Having played pre-cu swg, I'm well aware of the competition that exists between players for "fluff". Heck, I think I spent nearly 10 million credits (more credits than the majority of players would ever make at that point in time) just to get a complete set of the black and white spaceship pictures to decorate my shop. I bought them because a full set was rare and nicely enhanced my shop, thus giving me a slight advantage against my competitors.
However, I apparently am among the supposed few who don't really care one way or another if someone buys their way to the top. It doesn't affect me a bit, and I'll probably still outclass them in game wealth no matter how much cash they spend. It's a total shame that people like the OP can't just let it go and play their own game without so much needless worrying about others. Makes me wonder if these are the same type of people who spy on their neighbors in the hopes of catching them doing something illegal. Far more pathetic behavior than buying some digital gear imo.
I wasn't saying 40% are unhappy. I was saying 40% isn't a MAJORITY and you were using the majority as a justification here. I was questioning the criterion you were using.
Now, I could cite internet polls showing 30-40% of the people don't think it is cool, but that's rather anecdotal.
As for your point of view, that seems a bit short-cited. How other people act affects the game you play. If you and your circle of friends continue to play, but WoW loses 10 million subs, then that will impact you a LOT. Since you'd likely misinterpret that statement, let me clarify that I was using the 10 million number to illustrate a point.
I've no doubt that Blizzard decided they'd make more money doing this than they'd lose. I'm sure that's what went on. That's very different from whether it was right or wrong for them to do this. Like I said in my much longer post, I am sure part of what makes Blizzard capable of doing this is their near monopoly-status in the MMO world (not because they don't have competition, but because the competition is so small and generally poorly developed). I think it might set up some unhappiness that will result in a number of players leaving more easily down the road.
I dont' like cash shop. And I'm sure most people don't.
But for many games, f2p business model generate more income than p2p.
Alot of f2p mmo if were made to p2p just won't survive.
I don't understand all the CS hate posts/threads. If you do not like it, then don't play a game you already know has it. It is silly.
I dont mind CS's that give any type of bonus. If I'm against it being to strong, ill go to another game. Sticking around and whining about it would not help me a bit, and it would make me seem petty/naive.
If you want F2P, then CS's are part of it. If you dont understand why they need CS to be part of their game, then you REALLY need to take an economics class, or move out of mom and dad's house.
My god has horns.... nah, I don't think he is real either.
Free to Play = / = Fair to Play
Rawr.
There are probably dozens of mounts in the game one can get in that way. I haven't bothered even thinking about trying for most of them. It really isn't worth the effort to me. OTOH, getting the Kirin Tor pet was worth it for me enough to do it on 5 toons.
Would I mind it if that pet were purchasable instead? Nope. Don't mind that there are purchasable pets now. Don't have any real intention of buying them or the mount, but I'm cheap. I don't blame Blizzard for my quirks.
/agree
It seems to be an increasingly alien concept to people these days that people might actually like to acquire items in a game by actually *playing the game*, and not pulling out the credit card to "recharge my credits". I'm looking to be entertained in a virtual world where everything and anything is available for me to acquire purely through my own effort - should I choose it's worth my time to get. Sometimes it's not.. but at least it comes down purely to making a decision... not making a decision, then having to make sure I have enough credits to buy it.
When I start a new MMO I'm looking to play a game in a complete virtual world. I'm not looking to shop in a virtual mall with mobs and levels, using real money to buy individual virtual items.
And again.. to me the whole "it's only fluff" is a very short-sighted argument, used many times, I find, by people who won't see beyond their own noses. "I don't want it, so it doesn't affect me and I don't care if they charge for it" seems to be the mindset. Of course, it's easy to be dismissive of something when it doesn't affect you personally.
However, I would wager that many of those same people would feel quite differently if a number of items they wanted *were* only available by pulling out the credit card. Suddenly, their "F2P MMO" isn't so free... They would be left with the choice of "pull out the credit card and keep spending more money to keep up" or "not be able to play the way I want to". I wonder how they would react to that? I would, again, wager they wouldn't be quite so receptive to it. Would be interesting to see the mental gymnastics as they attempted to rationalize it away.
Thing is, there are people who enjoy collecting those fluff items... so for them, the cost of playing the game in a way that *they* enjoy ends up costing them more. "You never have to pay a dime unless you like to collect things that other consider "fluff"" is a rather lop-sided setup to me.
Which, again, is why I prefer and always will argue that a flat sub fee that everyone pays regardless of playstyle or what they do or don't want in the game is the only fair way to go. Whether you want to raid, quest, craft, PvP, decorate your house, collect every "fluff item" the game offers, or just twiddle your thumbs, you pay no more or less than anyone else. That is a payment method that regards all players equally. I never have to worry if that next piece of gear, or even some random pet I want "just because" is going to cost me more... because I don't have to spend another dime for it. I need only *play the game* to obtain it.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Absolutely. It is very much about fairness. Everyone playing a game should have the same opportunity to experience the content.
If that mount had been put in as a reward for defeating Arthas - everyone who had one would be hailed as a hero and admired. As it stands now - all owning one says is "Hey, I had $25 to burn." Whoopie. Grats.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
http://www.wowwiki.com/Invincible's_Reins
Go get it.
Now tell me why I should be excluded from getting an entirely different mount?
While I agree that putting a price on every reward leads to a spiral of irrational expending, I find funny to say that the current reward for time spent in game is fair, for some people time is as constraining as for others money is. If it is need to grind 20 hrs for an item, for somebody who gets over 30$ an hour, thats pretty much 600$, and even if he wants to play for it, in some ocassions that is just not possible. The real fairness is that everybody plays the same time, paying the same money, that way probably time sinks wouldn't be necessary and developers could have an easier life.
Really? I see the crux of the discussion as something entirely different. Nobody that I know about is complaining that there are in-game items and achievements you can acquire through game-play. The argument I'm seeing is whether or not other ways of getting things are anathema or not.
I believe the thing you're discussing is so widely accepted that nobody is really bothering to talk about it. What is there to discuss really?