Its fair, it lets everyone have access to the same items. Just becuase someone has more money does not make it unfair. It is like saying p2p games are unfair since people who spend more time farming have an unfair advantage. The options are there for everyone, so it is fair, even if you dont have the means to invest the time or money.
You only have the option if you have the money to waste on it. What you described is basically saying that starving people in Africa have the option to eat, even though they don't have any money to buy food.
Besides, games are meant to be played, meaning, time invested into them. RPGs revolve around character development. Therefore, to properly 'consume' an MMORPG, one must invest time to develop their characters. So consequently, varying degrees of available time to play the game is a moot point with regard sto fairness, because investing more time into a game inherently equates to more time playing said game, and more time enjoying said game.
In otherwords, you're supposed to invest time playing the game, because it's supposed to be about the journey and not the destination. As such, it doesn't matter if player A has more time to play than player B. It does matter however, if player A receives things that player B does not due to actions outside of the game, particularly from a monetary exchange. If it didn't matter, then there wouldn't be such stringent rules against selling gold or powerleveling. As it stands, companies like Blizzard are being huge hypocrits.
Simple, wether the game has a cash shop or not, or its p2p or f2p doesnt mean squat.
If its a cash shop, people whine mainly just because theyre younger and dont have access to online purchases to buy that lame costume many others have that they want so bad, or theyre like the majority who wont pay for such a fluff, but figure, "I play this game, so im entitled to have one too". Or your the busy body type, who wants a free game, doesnt care about fluffs but deep down inside your jelious that player b has an item you want fluff or not, so you come on here crying.
Now if its a straight up p2p title, you still have the same problems in a different view. You have those that p2p, and the vast majority who p2p while fueling the rmt makets by paying for ingame cash or items otherwise prove difficul to obtain over normal circumstances, just because it gives you an edge over others, aswell as treat said uber items even though useless by w/e level later in game as fluff items, just as someone would buy in a cash shop on a f2p game.
There isnt much difference in the problems of cash shop vs p2p rmt's. Other than most in p2p games problem, is that due to the games ToS they play by, buyin ingame items will get them banned.
I may be an ass and have turned in friends, guildmates, people I've recently met, friends of friends etc.. etc.. because Ive found out they purchase ingame items or ingame currency and shown proof with fraps or other means of screen shotting their boasts about buying crap on p2p games, but the one consistant thing they all always said one way or another why they did it, was "because i wanted a certain item to be better, look different", but they would always argue f2p/cash shop was a downfall of mmo's and should be closed down.
Idc about cashops one way or the other, why? because wether its f2p or p2p, you jack asses will buy ingame items one way or another and put on a front to bitch about the other game styles choice of business model while trying to look innocent.
Simple, wether the game has a cash shop or not, or its p2p or f2p doesnt mean squat.
If its a cash shop, people whine mainly just because theyre younger and dont have access to online purchases to buy that lame costume many others have that they want so bad, or theyre like the majority who wont pay for such a fluff, but figure, "I play this game, so im entitled to have one too". Or your the busy body type, who wants a free game, doesnt care about fluffs but deep down inside your jelious that player b has an item you want fluff or not, so you come on here crying.
Now if its a straight up p2p title, you still have the same problems in a different view. You have those that p2p, and the vast majority who p2p while fueling the rmt makets by paying for ingame cash or items otherwise prove difficul to obtain over normal circumstances, just because it gives you an edge over others, aswell as treat said uber items even though useless by w/e level later in game as fluff items, just as someone would buy in a cash shop on a f2p game.
There isnt much difference in the problems of cash shop vs p2p rmt's. Other than most in p2p games problem, is that due to the games ToS they play by, buyin ingame items will get them banned.
I may be an ass and have turned in friends, guildmates, people I've recently met, friends of friends etc.. etc.. because Ive found out they purchase ingame items or ingame currency and shown proof with fraps or other means of screen shotting their boasts about buying crap on p2p games, but the one consistant thing they all always said one way or another why they did it, was "because i wanted a certain item to be better, look different", but they would always argue f2p/cash shop was a downfall of mmo's and should be closed down.
Idc about cashops one way or the other, why? because wether its f2p or p2p, you jack asses will buy ingame items one way or another and put on a front to bitch about the other game styles choice of business model while trying to look innocent.
You took that many words to say you have no idea what you are talking about? And I thought I was long winded.....
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
There seems to still be a misconception as to the point of this thread.
Most people against cash shops don't care about cash shops in F2P MMOs. Most of us accept the fact that it is how those games make money, because the base game is free, and there is no subscription.
The main problem, is cash shops in P2P subscription based MMOs.
They do not belong, because we are already paying our "rent" as another poster put it.
Right, but while we're talking "rent"... you wouldnt go to your apartment complex management and throw a bitch fit because they have bigger places with nicer features at a higher price, would you? Sure you pay your rent, and anyone living in the same apartment style (size, rooms, features, etc) would pay the same rent. But say youre in a 2 bedroom 1 bath, and decide you want to upgrade to a 2 bath with walk in closets and newer appliances, at an extra cost. Does anyoen else in the complex have the right to say no, youre not allowed to have those nicer things, even though its your money and you can afford it? Or should we start allowing people to dictate what others are allowed to buy with their own money?
There seems to still be a misconception as to the point of this thread.
Most people against cash shops don't care about cash shops in F2P MMOs. Most of us accept the fact that it is how those games make money, because the base game is free, and there is no subscription.
The main problem, is cash shops in P2P subscription based MMOs.
They do not belong, because we are already paying our "rent" as another poster put it.
Right, but while we're talking "rent"... you wouldnt go to your apartment complex management and throw a bitch fit because they have bigger places with nicer features at a higher price, would you? Sure you pay your rent, and anyone living in the same apartment style (size, rooms, features, etc) would pay the same rent. But say youre in a 2 bedroom 1 bath, and decide you want to upgrade to a 2 bath with walk in closets and newer appliances, at an extra cost. Does anyoen else in the complex have the right to say no, youre not allowed to have those nicer things, even though its your money and you can afford it? Or should we start allowing people to dictate what others are allowed to buy with their own money?
Of course I would. What you just described is a game expansion. Something that adds considerable value and functionality.
RMT items are different. Which under your aparatment expample, is more like paying extra for the privledge of being able to ignore noise rules the apartment complex might have. You might get a little benefit from it, but you're going to annoy the crap out of everyone else.
Its fair, it lets everyone have access to the same items. Just becuase someone has more money does not make it unfair. It is like saying p2p games are unfair since people who spend more time farming have an unfair advantage. The options are there for everyone, so it is fair, even if you dont have the means to invest the time or money.
You only have the option if you have the money to waste on it. What you described is basically saying that starving people in Africa have the option to eat, even though they don't have any money to buy food.
Besides, games are meant to be played, meaning, time invested into them. RPGs revolve around character development. Therefore, to properly 'consume' an MMORPG, one must invest time to develop their characters. So consequently, varying degrees of available time to play the game is a moot point with regard sto fairness, because investing more time into a game inherently equates to more time playing said game, and more time enjoying said game.
In otherwords, you're supposed to invest time playing the game, because it's supposed to be about the journey and not the destination. As such, it doesn't matter if player A has more time to play than player B. It does matter however, if player A receives things that player B does not due to actions outside of the game, particularly from a monetary exchange. If it didn't matter, then there wouldn't be such stringent rules against selling gold or powerleveling. As it stands, companies like Blizzard are being huge hypocrits.
Perhaps for you, but you dont speak for everyone. For many, its about rushing to max level and the best gear and then enjoying the game at your full potential. For others, its all about roleplaying, for others its all about gathering resources and crafting. Everyone plays games for different reasons. Whats wrong with simply allowing people to play how they want, and buy what they want?
And yeah, i agree Blizzard, along with others, are being huge hypocrits. But we cant sit here and act like we're ignorant and dont know how greedy these companies are. The ONLY reason that these companies ban RMT and stuff in games, is because it means that less people have to spend less time grinding, farming, etc and getting drawn into the time sinks that the devs have designed in order to keep us playing & paying longer. But so long as its them selling something in orde rto bring a profit to them, then of course it's perfectly acceptable in their eyes. They just dont want anyone else getting a piece of their pie.
There seems to still be a misconception as to the point of this thread.
Most people against cash shops don't care about cash shops in F2P MMOs. Most of us accept the fact that it is how those games make money, because the base game is free, and there is no subscription.
The main problem, is cash shops in P2P subscription based MMOs.
They do not belong, because we are already paying our "rent" as another poster put it.
Right, but while we're talking "rent"... you wouldnt go to your apartment complex management and throw a bitch fit because they have bigger places with nicer features at a higher price, would you? Sure you pay your rent, and anyone living in the same apartment style (size, rooms, features, etc) would pay the same rent. But say youre in a 2 bedroom 1 bath, and decide you want to upgrade to a 2 bath with walk in closets and newer appliances, at an extra cost. Does anyoen else in the complex have the right to say no, youre not allowed to have those nicer things, even though its your money and you can afford it? Or should we start allowing people to dictate what others are allowed to buy with their own money?
The analogy with the real life rent is not correct. When you buy a better house you "play" by the rules of reality. The same when you obtain a better equipment in game by obeying the game's rules. Now the cash shop for the game is like god interfering in real life and giving to some peoples something which can't be obtainable by others. Breaking the laws of physics. That's what cash shop does. It interferes with the game's rules.
There seems to still be a misconception as to the point of this thread.
Most people against cash shops don't care about cash shops in F2P MMOs. Most of us accept the fact that it is how those games make money, because the base game is free, and there is no subscription.
The main problem, is cash shops in P2P subscription based MMOs.
They do not belong, because we are already paying our "rent" as another poster put it.
Right, but while we're talking "rent"... you wouldnt go to your apartment complex management and throw a bitch fit because they have bigger places with nicer features at a higher price, would you? Sure you pay your rent, and anyone living in the same apartment style (size, rooms, features, etc) would pay the same rent. But say youre in a 2 bedroom 1 bath, and decide you want to upgrade to a 2 bath with walk in closets and newer appliances, at an extra cost. Does anyoen else in the complex have the right to say no, youre not allowed to have those nicer things, even though its your money and you can afford it? Or should we start allowing people to dictate what others are allowed to buy with their own money?
The analogy with the real life rent is not correct. When you buy a better house you "play" by the rules of reality. The same when you obtain a better equipment in game by obeying the game's rules. Now the cash shop for the game is like god interfering in real life and giving to some peoples something which can't be obtainable by others. Breaking the laws of physics. That's what cash shop does. It interferes with the game's rules.
Breaking what rules? The imaginary rules that you put in place for everyone else without asking for their consent, as if youre the one who created the game? These companies, as far as the game world is concerned, are god, and create their own laws of physics. If they add an item in, it's still within the rule sof the game, because god said so, not because some random person said so. As far things being unobtainable by others... welcome to life. Not everyone can be a pro athlete, become a multi-billionare, become a famous scientist who creates some new advanced technology etc. Everyone has different capabilities, and different roles to play.... funny since we're talking roleplaying games... i guess your role would be that of the poor jobless peasant begging for change on the street giving dirty looks to the rich people prancing by on their Celestial Steeds.
@Ceridith - perhaps i dont care about the noise others are making, but i do care about luxuries like nicer appliances or whatever. Thats the problem, all of the anti-cash shop argument is based on only what you as an individual want, and find important to you, without considering what others may want and find valueable. Cash shop allows people to purchase things that others cant. Is it the game companies fault that you dont have a bette rjob and money to blow? Should Blizzard aslo get rid of all loot drops and rewards in the game, and instead upon character creationg give you 999999999 gold, the best possible gear, level 80, maxed stats, and infinite points to put into your talents and stuff, because some of us dont have 20 hours a day every day to gain those things quickly? Of course not, but oh they better not dare give people other methods of achieving things. So what, someone has more money than you, and bought something you cant afford, or arent willing to pay for, get used to it, it happens everywhere every day. Its no different than someone in the game farming for gold for hours and hours, and being able to buy better things off the AH than others. They worked for it, and are spending the money how they want.
There seems to still be a misconception as to the point of this thread.
Most people against cash shops don't care about cash shops in F2P MMOs. Most of us accept the fact that it is how those games make money, because the base game is free, and there is no subscription.
The main problem, is cash shops in P2P subscription based MMOs.
They do not belong, because we are already paying our "rent" as another poster put it.
Right, but while we're talking "rent"... you wouldnt go to your apartment complex management and throw a bitch fit because they have bigger places with nicer features at a higher price, would you? Sure you pay your rent, and anyone living in the same apartment style (size, rooms, features, etc) would pay the same rent. But say youre in a 2 bedroom 1 bath, and decide you want to upgrade to a 2 bath with walk in closets and newer appliances, at an extra cost. Does anyoen else in the complex have the right to say no, youre not allowed to have those nicer things, even though its your money and you can afford it? Or should we start allowing people to dictate what others are allowed to buy with their own money?
The analogy with the real life rent is not correct. When you buy a better house you "play" by the rules of reality. The same when you obtain a better equipment in game by obeying the game's rules. Now the cash shop for the game is like god interfering in real life and giving to some peoples something which can't be obtainable by others. Breaking the laws of physics. That's what cash shop does. It interferes with the game's rules.
Breaking what rules? The imaginary rules that you put in place for everyone else without asking for their consent, as if youre the one who created the game? These companies, as far as the game world is concerned, are god, and create their own laws of physics. If they add an item in, it's still within the rule sof the game, because god said so, not become some random person said so.
The rules that exists in all the games. Not just mmorpg but in every game. A rule for example is when Mario get hit from a mushroom, he dies. The only thing that can break the rule is by hacking and that needs something outside from the game. Something that doesn't obey to the rules which pretty much destroyes the game. What is a game afterall. It's about achieving something while obeying to the game's rules. Saving the princess without getting hit from mushrooms or falling down.
Do I need those special items or fluff gear, of course not, but it annoys the hell out of me when I find myself denied something in game when I'm a card carrying, full time subscriber to the game.
It annoys the hell of of me when I find myself having to do something I don't want to do just to get something in game. Like getting the Faerie Dragon pet. I do not like that grind. It annoys me. Yet I'm denied it because I'm not willing to spend the time grinding the mobs.
Why do the things that annoy you matter while the things that annoy me don't? Am I less of a subscriber than you because I'd be willing to pay for some things rather than engage in some in-game activity?
RMT items are different. Which under your aparatment expample, is more like paying extra for the privledge of being able to ignore noise rules the apartment complex might have. You might get a little benefit from it, but you're going to annoy the crap out of everyone else.
Is this your way of saying you find the noise of the XT mini-pet annoying?
Well, I agree with you there, but I'm sure they'll adjust the scripts as they go along. Certainly doesn't apply as an argument to the Steed though, it's no more annoying than anybody else on a mount.
I really think you're just deliberately coming up with a busted response to the analogy though, it's not exactly what I'd call an accurate description of affairs.
If you want another way of putting it, imagine you want an extra keycard to the building, or extra time in the hot tub, or extra space in the complex garden. I see no reason for them not to charge for those services, nor would I consider them comparable to an expansion.
There seems to still be a misconception as to the point of this thread.
Most people against cash shops don't care about cash shops in F2P MMOs. Most of us accept the fact that it is how those games make money, because the base game is free, and there is no subscription.
The main problem, is cash shops in P2P subscription based MMOs.
They do not belong, because we are already paying our "rent" as another poster put it.
Right, but while we're talking "rent"... you wouldnt go to your apartment complex management and throw a bitch fit because they have bigger places with nicer features at a higher price, would you? Sure you pay your rent, and anyone living in the same apartment style (size, rooms, features, etc) would pay the same rent. But say youre in a 2 bedroom 1 bath, and decide you want to upgrade to a 2 bath with walk in closets and newer appliances, at an extra cost. Does anyoen else in the complex have the right to say no, youre not allowed to have those nicer things, even though its your money and you can afford it? Or should we start allowing people to dictate what others are allowed to buy with their own money?
The analogy with the real life rent is not correct. When you buy a better house you "play" by the rules of reality. The same when you obtain a better equipment in game by obeying the game's rules. Now the cash shop for the game is like god interfering in real life and giving to some peoples something which can't be obtainable by others. Breaking the laws of physics. That's what cash shop does. It interferes with the game's rules.
Breaking what rules? The imaginary rules that you put in place for everyone else without asking for their consent, as if youre the one who created the game? These companies, as far as the game world is concerned, are god, and create their own laws of physics. If they add an item in, it's still within the rule sof the game, because god said so, not become some random person said so.
The rules that exists in all the games. Not just mmorpg but in every game. A rule for example is when Mario get hit from a mushroom, he dies. The only thing that can break the rule is by hacking and that needs something outside from the game. Something that doesn't obey to the rules which pretty much destroyes the game. What is a game afterall. It's about achieving something while obeying to the game's rules. Saving the princess without getting hit from mushrooms or falling down.
Right, i get that. But youre missing my point. Thopse so called rules, are only limitations put in place by the designers and programmers of the game. Like i said, they are basically god. If IRL "god" decides he's tired of gravity, and gets rid of it, and we all float around, thats not breaking or interfering with a rule, thats simply changing a rule. We're not talking hackers changing the rules, we're talking god himself (the devs) creating new rules as they see fit, wether it pleases everyone or not, just like heres plenty of rules god IRL has in place that we dont all like.
The game gods who created the world Mario lives in could decide Mario has a giant flaming sword of death +99999 that 1 shots the entire map at once, including Bowser, instead of needing mushrooms to jump on enemies, and that would be their right, as the god of that world, much like Blizzard is the god of WoW.
Right, i get that. But youre missing my point. Thopse so called rules, are only limitations put in place by the designers and programmers of the game. Like i said, they are basically god. If IRL "god" decides he's tired of gravity, and gets rid of it, and we all float around, thats not breaking or interfering with a rule, thats simply changing a rule. We're not talking hackers changing the rules, we're talking god himself (the devs) creating new rules as they see fit, wether it pleases everyone or not, just like heres plenty of rules god IRL has in place that we dont all like.
The game gods who created the world Mario lives in could decide Mario has a giant flaming sword of death +99999 that 1 shots the entire map at once, including Bowser, instead of needing mushrooms to jump on enemies, and that would be their right, as the god of that world, much like Blizzard is the god of WoW.
We know that they can do whatever they want. They can make whatever rules they want. This is what we are discussing. Should they interfere or not. We know they can, we're just saying they shouldn't.
For me a game should have no interference from outside. This is the biggest reason why I hate f2p. The game should not be for those who pay more but for the challenge the game has. Pretty much the pro shouldn't be he who pays more but he who knows how to play.
A clarification. I think some people are missing my point. I wasn't arguing for or against cash shops, as much as I wanted to focus on the oft heard rationalization that 'as long as its for cosmetic items, its ok'. My point being that non-combat items in a mmorpg do indeed have an impact on the game, in as much as they have an impact on the player, and how that player feels about the game, and their play style. Arguing against the idea that only items that directly impact combat or leveling matter.
Right, i get that. But youre missing my point. Thopse so called rules, are only limitations put in place by the designers and programmers of the game. Like i said, they are basically god. If IRL "god" decides he's tired of gravity, and gets rid of it, and we all float around, thats not breaking or interfering with a rule, thats simply changing a rule. We're not talking hackers changing the rules, we're talking god himself (the devs) creating new rules as they see fit, wether it pleases everyone or not, just like heres plenty of rules god IRL has in place that we dont all like.
The game gods who created the world Mario lives in could decide Mario has a giant flaming sword of death +99999 that 1 shots the entire map at once, including Bowser, instead of needing mushrooms to jump on enemies, and that would be their right, as the god of that world, much like Blizzard is the god of WoW.
We know that they can do whatever they want. They can make whatever rules they want. This is what we are discussing. Should they interfere or not. We know they can, we're just saying they shouldn't.
For me a game should have no interference from outside. This is the biggest reason why I hate f2p. The game should not be for those who pay more but for the challenge the game has. Pretty much the pro shouldn't be he who pays more but he who knows how to play.
Dont get me wrong, i agree with you 100% on the fact that skill should not win over moneym but let's face it, like 95% of the MMOs out there now have absolutely no skill involved, and have been designed into games relying soleley on being abkle to reach a higher level and get better gear, which in most cases is almost purely based on time invested, not actual skill.
Games that actually do require skill over time invested, such as FPS and Twitch style MMOs, are a whole different story. In those types of games, the typical items we see in cash shops nowadays wouldnt really effect skill, and would only very very slightly give someone an edge over an equally skilled player. But if they were to go throwing in things which eliminate needing to have skill (such as an auto-aiming gun or something), then youre just straight up making it unfair. As i said though, typical MMOs right now, are more time based than skill, and in most cases all a cash shop does is exchange $$ for time, some of us have more of one than the other, and some of us find value in different things.
I don't collect things and I don't play the keep-up-with-the-jones' game so I'm immune from the lure of cash shops. But I know there are people who get really irked when they can't get that mount or costume.
The rules that exists in all the games. Not just mmorpg but in every game. A rule for example is when Mario get hit from a mushroom, he dies. The only thing that can break the rule is by hacking and that needs something outside from the game. Something that doesn't obey to the rules which pretty much destroyes the game. What is a game afterall. It's about achieving something while obeying to the game's rules. Saving the princess without getting hit from mushrooms or falling down.
There is no such thing. Rules are PROGRAMED into the game BY DEVELOPERS. If Nintendo updated the game so Mario won't die .. he wont die and that is the new rule.
And rules of games change ALL THE TIME. Rules in WOW change for EVERY PATCH. The addition of a buyable mount is just one of those.
You may not like it .. but it does not prevent Blizz to change the rules.
We know that they can do whatever they want. They can make whatever rules they want. This is what we are discussing. Should they interfere or not. We know they can, we're just saying they shouldn't.
For me a game should have no interference from outside. This is the biggest reason why I hate f2p. The game should not be for those who pay more but for the challenge the game has. Pretty much the pro shouldn't be he who pays more but he who knows how to play.
Why shouldn't there be interference from outside? Because you say so? You hate F2P .. sure .. i got that. But why shouldn't developers do it just because you hate it?
It is a growing market. There are plenty of people who don't hate it. If I am a developers, why should i listen to one or two haters? There are always a few haters.
A clarification. I think some people are missing my point. I wasn't arguing for or against cash shops, as much as I wanted to focus on the oft heard rationalization that 'as long as its for cosmetic items, its ok'. My point being that non-combat items in a mmorpg do indeed have an impact on the game, in as much as they have an impact on the player, and how that player feels about the game, and their play style. Arguing against the idea that only items that directly impact combat or leveling matter.
I'm unpersuaded by the substance of this argument. Many of these cosmetic items are obtained only by luck(or endless grinding), others by a combination of luck and group effort. Some people don't like doing that either. Should we placate them by making all such cosmetic items exchanable on the AH or otherwise tradable?
What about limited availability items? Does it not impact how a player feels when they can't get an item anymore, even if all that had to do was visit a website, or log into the game?
You could spend forever and a day coming up with reasons why somebody might be displeased and upset over some choice you made.
Sorry, but not everybody can be happy.
People make choices based on what they value, and not all values are compatible.
And it's really very easy to see how they can be characterised as greedy.
Easy? Sure. Accurate? That's another story. I see lots of easy claims about people's behavior and motivations.
Sure Blizzard probably made a fair chunk of money off the Pony. I would accept people's claims that the price was a bit high for them. Sure, the development costs are a bit high. I'd accept somebody expressing a desire for most of that profit to be reinvested in the game and not just used to put a gold-plated bathtub in some executives house.
As I detailed, even allowing that Blizzard spent 100k in developing that pony - which I think is being insanely generous - they would have given them a 2000% profit on it just from the first four hours of sales.
By anyone's standards, a 2000% profit is kind of insane. It's not only fair, but definitely accurate to characterise that as greedy. Even in the most incredible of boom times the average annual return on US stocks has never hit 80%. What stocks can't do over the length of the very best year, Blizzard achieved in 10 minutes.
And from the perspective of what the player actually gets, that horse cost half as much as an expansion pack. It really is difficult not to see that as greedy.
The game gods who created the world Mario lives in could decide Mario has a giant flaming sword of death +99999 that 1 shots the entire map at once, including Bowser, instead of needing mushrooms to jump on enemies, and that would be their right, as the god of that world, much like Blizzard is the god of WoW.
The subscribers are god. The game dies if enough people don't pay for it.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
By anyone's standards, a 2000% profit is kind of insane. It's not only fair, but definitely accurate to characterise that as greedy. Even in the most incredible of boom times the average annual return on US stocks has never hit 80%. What stocks can't do over the length of the very best year, Blizzard achieved in 10 minutes.
And from the perspective of what the player actually gets, that horse cost half as much as an expansion pack. It really is difficult not to see that as greedy.
With that mount, Blizzard is effectively printing their own money, as it costs them virtually nothing per copy.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Do I need those special items or fluff gear, of course not, but it annoys the hell out of me when I find myself denied something in game when I'm a card carrying, full time subscriber to the game.
It annoys the hell of of me when I find myself having to do something I don't want to do just to get something in game. Like getting the Faerie Dragon pet. I do not like that grind. It annoys me. Yet I'm denied it because I'm not willing to spend the time grinding the mobs.
Why do the things that annoy you matter while the things that annoy me don't? Am I less of a subscriber than you because I'd be willing to pay for some things rather than engage in some in-game activity?
You missed the part of my post that said that its fine to offer fluff items in a cash shop to a person like you as long as I can obtain them in game 'somehow' without paying for them.
Wasn't saying they should cater to either you or me exclusively, but make allowances for both.
But your argument is heading down a slippery slope. By saying that you don't like the grind for the pet, you could also say you don't like the grind for the super sword of whoop arse, only obtainable by 1 in 100,000 players, and want to be able to buy it in the cash shop as well.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You missed the part of my post that said that its fine to offer fluff items in a cash shop to a person like you as long as I can obtain them in game 'somehow' without paying for them. Wasn't saying they should cater to either you or me exclusively, but make allowances for both. But your argument is heading down a slippery slope. By saying that you don't like the grind for the pet, you could also say you don't like the grind for the super sword of whoop arse, only obtainable by 1 in 100,000 players, and want to be able to buy it in the cash shop as well. That is the path to hell IMO.
I think this is a great way of pointing out the basic issue in that everyone (or a good majority) of the Western culture have this unhealthy sense of entitlement when it comes to basically everything. Like a previous poster said, "he has no problem with cash shops because he doesn't worry about keeping up with the jones", however everyone else is. Everyone wants everything it be perfectly fair and balanced and feel like because they have a subscription to a game, everything should be handed to them on a silver platter.
Yes, I think we reached an all time low when people are complaining about this so called "grind" to get anything in a game like they have something better to do. I think where we have even taken this very definition of grind has almost became applicable to ALL aspects of an MMORPG and the word /term should be utterly destroyed. A game is meant to kill time and meant to be enjoyed and if you aren'ty enjoying it, then I would recommend another genre outside of MMORPG's because put in a certain perspective all MMORPG's are one big ultimate "grind".
Comments
You only have the option if you have the money to waste on it. What you described is basically saying that starving people in Africa have the option to eat, even though they don't have any money to buy food.
Besides, games are meant to be played, meaning, time invested into them. RPGs revolve around character development. Therefore, to properly 'consume' an MMORPG, one must invest time to develop their characters. So consequently, varying degrees of available time to play the game is a moot point with regard sto fairness, because investing more time into a game inherently equates to more time playing said game, and more time enjoying said game.
In otherwords, you're supposed to invest time playing the game, because it's supposed to be about the journey and not the destination. As such, it doesn't matter if player A has more time to play than player B. It does matter however, if player A receives things that player B does not due to actions outside of the game, particularly from a monetary exchange. If it didn't matter, then there wouldn't be such stringent rules against selling gold or powerleveling. As it stands, companies like Blizzard are being huge hypocrits.
This argument is old and tiresome. Why?
Simple, wether the game has a cash shop or not, or its p2p or f2p doesnt mean squat.
If its a cash shop, people whine mainly just because theyre younger and dont have access to online purchases to buy that lame costume many others have that they want so bad, or theyre like the majority who wont pay for such a fluff, but figure, "I play this game, so im entitled to have one too". Or your the busy body type, who wants a free game, doesnt care about fluffs but deep down inside your jelious that player b has an item you want fluff or not, so you come on here crying.
Now if its a straight up p2p title, you still have the same problems in a different view. You have those that p2p, and the vast majority who p2p while fueling the rmt makets by paying for ingame cash or items otherwise prove difficul to obtain over normal circumstances, just because it gives you an edge over others, aswell as treat said uber items even though useless by w/e level later in game as fluff items, just as someone would buy in a cash shop on a f2p game.
There isnt much difference in the problems of cash shop vs p2p rmt's. Other than most in p2p games problem, is that due to the games ToS they play by, buyin ingame items will get them banned.
I may be an ass and have turned in friends, guildmates, people I've recently met, friends of friends etc.. etc.. because Ive found out they purchase ingame items or ingame currency and shown proof with fraps or other means of screen shotting their boasts about buying crap on p2p games, but the one consistant thing they all always said one way or another why they did it, was "because i wanted a certain item to be better, look different", but they would always argue f2p/cash shop was a downfall of mmo's and should be closed down.
Idc about cashops one way or the other, why? because wether its f2p or p2p, you jack asses will buy ingame items one way or another and put on a front to bitch about the other game styles choice of business model while trying to look innocent.
You took that many words to say you have no idea what you are talking about? And I thought I was long winded.....
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Of course I would. What you just described is a game expansion. Something that adds considerable value and functionality.
RMT items are different. Which under your aparatment expample, is more like paying extra for the privledge of being able to ignore noise rules the apartment complex might have. You might get a little benefit from it, but you're going to annoy the crap out of everyone else.
Perhaps for you, but you dont speak for everyone. For many, its about rushing to max level and the best gear and then enjoying the game at your full potential. For others, its all about roleplaying, for others its all about gathering resources and crafting. Everyone plays games for different reasons. Whats wrong with simply allowing people to play how they want, and buy what they want?
And yeah, i agree Blizzard, along with others, are being huge hypocrits. But we cant sit here and act like we're ignorant and dont know how greedy these companies are. The ONLY reason that these companies ban RMT and stuff in games, is because it means that less people have to spend less time grinding, farming, etc and getting drawn into the time sinks that the devs have designed in order to keep us playing & paying longer. But so long as its them selling something in orde rto bring a profit to them, then of course it's perfectly acceptable in their eyes. They just dont want anyone else getting a piece of their pie.
The analogy with the real life rent is not correct. When you buy a better house you "play" by the rules of reality. The same when you obtain a better equipment in game by obeying the game's rules. Now the cash shop for the game is like god interfering in real life and giving to some peoples something which can't be obtainable by others. Breaking the laws of physics. That's what cash shop does. It interferes with the game's rules.
Breaking what rules? The imaginary rules that you put in place for everyone else without asking for their consent, as if youre the one who created the game? These companies, as far as the game world is concerned, are god, and create their own laws of physics. If they add an item in, it's still within the rule sof the game, because god said so, not because some random person said so. As far things being unobtainable by others... welcome to life. Not everyone can be a pro athlete, become a multi-billionare, become a famous scientist who creates some new advanced technology etc. Everyone has different capabilities, and different roles to play.... funny since we're talking roleplaying games... i guess your role would be that of the poor jobless peasant begging for change on the street giving dirty looks to the rich people prancing by on their Celestial Steeds.
@Ceridith - perhaps i dont care about the noise others are making, but i do care about luxuries like nicer appliances or whatever. Thats the problem, all of the anti-cash shop argument is based on only what you as an individual want, and find important to you, without considering what others may want and find valueable. Cash shop allows people to purchase things that others cant. Is it the game companies fault that you dont have a bette rjob and money to blow? Should Blizzard aslo get rid of all loot drops and rewards in the game, and instead upon character creationg give you 999999999 gold, the best possible gear, level 80, maxed stats, and infinite points to put into your talents and stuff, because some of us dont have 20 hours a day every day to gain those things quickly? Of course not, but oh they better not dare give people other methods of achieving things. So what, someone has more money than you, and bought something you cant afford, or arent willing to pay for, get used to it, it happens everywhere every day. Its no different than someone in the game farming for gold for hours and hours, and being able to buy better things off the AH than others. They worked for it, and are spending the money how they want.
The rules that exists in all the games. Not just mmorpg but in every game. A rule for example is when Mario get hit from a mushroom, he dies. The only thing that can break the rule is by hacking and that needs something outside from the game. Something that doesn't obey to the rules which pretty much destroyes the game. What is a game afterall. It's about achieving something while obeying to the game's rules. Saving the princess without getting hit from mushrooms or falling down.
It annoys the hell of of me when I find myself having to do something I don't want to do just to get something in game. Like getting the Faerie Dragon pet. I do not like that grind. It annoys me. Yet I'm denied it because I'm not willing to spend the time grinding the mobs.
Why do the things that annoy you matter while the things that annoy me don't? Am I less of a subscriber than you because I'd be willing to pay for some things rather than engage in some in-game activity?
Is this your way of saying you find the noise of the XT mini-pet annoying?
Well, I agree with you there, but I'm sure they'll adjust the scripts as they go along. Certainly doesn't apply as an argument to the Steed though, it's no more annoying than anybody else on a mount.
I really think you're just deliberately coming up with a busted response to the analogy though, it's not exactly what I'd call an accurate description of affairs.
If you want another way of putting it, imagine you want an extra keycard to the building, or extra time in the hot tub, or extra space in the complex garden. I see no reason for them not to charge for those services, nor would I consider them comparable to an expansion.
Right, i get that. But youre missing my point. Thopse so called rules, are only limitations put in place by the designers and programmers of the game. Like i said, they are basically god. If IRL "god" decides he's tired of gravity, and gets rid of it, and we all float around, thats not breaking or interfering with a rule, thats simply changing a rule. We're not talking hackers changing the rules, we're talking god himself (the devs) creating new rules as they see fit, wether it pleases everyone or not, just like heres plenty of rules god IRL has in place that we dont all like.
The game gods who created the world Mario lives in could decide Mario has a giant flaming sword of death +99999 that 1 shots the entire map at once, including Bowser, instead of needing mushrooms to jump on enemies, and that would be their right, as the god of that world, much like Blizzard is the god of WoW.
Hey folks, y'all do know if Mario touches the star he does become invincible to the mushrooms. They can't hurt him...
We know that they can do whatever they want. They can make whatever rules they want. This is what we are discussing. Should they interfere or not. We know they can, we're just saying they shouldn't.
For me a game should have no interference from outside. This is the biggest reason why I hate f2p. The game should not be for those who pay more but for the challenge the game has. Pretty much the pro shouldn't be he who pays more but he who knows how to play.
A clarification. I think some people are missing my point. I wasn't arguing for or against cash shops, as much as I wanted to focus on the oft heard rationalization that 'as long as its for cosmetic items, its ok'. My point being that non-combat items in a mmorpg do indeed have an impact on the game, in as much as they have an impact on the player, and how that player feels about the game, and their play style. Arguing against the idea that only items that directly impact combat or leveling matter.
Dont get me wrong, i agree with you 100% on the fact that skill should not win over moneym but let's face it, like 95% of the MMOs out there now have absolutely no skill involved, and have been designed into games relying soleley on being abkle to reach a higher level and get better gear, which in most cases is almost purely based on time invested, not actual skill.
Games that actually do require skill over time invested, such as FPS and Twitch style MMOs, are a whole different story. In those types of games, the typical items we see in cash shops nowadays wouldnt really effect skill, and would only very very slightly give someone an edge over an equally skilled player. But if they were to go throwing in things which eliminate needing to have skill (such as an auto-aiming gun or something), then youre just straight up making it unfair. As i said though, typical MMOs right now, are more time based than skill, and in most cases all a cash shop does is exchange $$ for time, some of us have more of one than the other, and some of us find value in different things.
I don't collect things and I don't play the keep-up-with-the-jones' game so I'm immune from the lure of cash shops. But I know there are people who get really irked when they can't get that mount or costume.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
The rules that exists in all the games. Not just mmorpg but in every game. A rule for example is when Mario get hit from a mushroom, he dies. The only thing that can break the rule is by hacking and that needs something outside from the game. Something that doesn't obey to the rules which pretty much destroyes the game. What is a game afterall. It's about achieving something while obeying to the game's rules. Saving the princess without getting hit from mushrooms or falling down.
There is no such thing. Rules are PROGRAMED into the game BY DEVELOPERS. If Nintendo updated the game so Mario won't die .. he wont die and that is the new rule.
And rules of games change ALL THE TIME. Rules in WOW change for EVERY PATCH. The addition of a buyable mount is just one of those.
You may not like it .. but it does not prevent Blizz to change the rules.
We know that they can do whatever they want. They can make whatever rules they want. This is what we are discussing. Should they interfere or not. We know they can, we're just saying they shouldn't.
For me a game should have no interference from outside. This is the biggest reason why I hate f2p. The game should not be for those who pay more but for the challenge the game has. Pretty much the pro shouldn't be he who pays more but he who knows how to play.
Why shouldn't there be interference from outside? Because you say so? You hate F2P .. sure .. i got that. But why shouldn't developers do it just because you hate it?
It is a growing market. There are plenty of people who don't hate it. If I am a developers, why should i listen to one or two haters? There are always a few haters.
I'm unpersuaded by the substance of this argument. Many of these cosmetic items are obtained only by luck(or endless grinding), others by a combination of luck and group effort. Some people don't like doing that either. Should we placate them by making all such cosmetic items exchanable on the AH or otherwise tradable?
What about limited availability items? Does it not impact how a player feels when they can't get an item anymore, even if all that had to do was visit a website, or log into the game?
You could spend forever and a day coming up with reasons why somebody might be displeased and upset over some choice you made.
Sorry, but not everybody can be happy.
People make choices based on what they value, and not all values are compatible.
As I detailed, even allowing that Blizzard spent 100k in developing that pony - which I think is being insanely generous - they would have given them a 2000% profit on it just from the first four hours of sales.
By anyone's standards, a 2000% profit is kind of insane. It's not only fair, but definitely accurate to characterise that as greedy. Even in the most incredible of boom times the average annual return on US stocks has never hit 80%. What stocks can't do over the length of the very best year, Blizzard achieved in 10 minutes.
And from the perspective of what the player actually gets, that horse cost half as much as an expansion pack. It really is difficult not to see that as greedy.
The subscribers are god. The game dies if enough people don't pay for it.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
With that mount, Blizzard is effectively printing their own money, as it costs them virtually nothing per copy.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
You missed the part of my post that said that its fine to offer fluff items in a cash shop to a person like you as long as I can obtain them in game 'somehow' without paying for them.
Wasn't saying they should cater to either you or me exclusively, but make allowances for both.
But your argument is heading down a slippery slope. By saying that you don't like the grind for the pet, you could also say you don't like the grind for the super sword of whoop arse, only obtainable by 1 in 100,000 players, and want to be able to buy it in the cash shop as well.
That is the path to hell IMO.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Kyleran
You missed the part of my post that said that its fine to offer fluff items in a cash shop to a person like you as long as I can obtain them in game 'somehow' without paying for them.
Wasn't saying they should cater to either you or me exclusively, but make allowances for both.
But your argument is heading down a slippery slope. By saying that you don't like the grind for the pet, you could also say you don't like the grind for the super sword of whoop arse, only obtainable by 1 in 100,000 players, and want to be able to buy it in the cash shop as well.
That is the path to hell IMO.
I think this is a great way of pointing out the basic issue in that everyone (or a good majority) of the Western culture have this unhealthy sense of entitlement when it comes to basically everything. Like a previous poster said, "he has no problem with cash shops because he doesn't worry about keeping up with the jones", however everyone else is. Everyone wants everything it be perfectly fair and balanced and feel like because they have a subscription to a game, everything should be handed to them on a silver platter.
Yes, I think we reached an all time low when people are complaining about this so called "grind" to get anything in a game like they have something better to do. I think where we have even taken this very definition of grind has almost became applicable to ALL aspects of an MMORPG and the word /term should be utterly destroyed. A game is meant to kill time and meant to be enjoyed and if you aren'ty enjoying it, then I would recommend another genre outside of MMORPG's because put in a certain perspective all MMORPG's are one big ultimate "grind".