This may be a minor point, but Starvault never announced that they were shipping the game in September, they announced that they were shipping the boxes with the Beta client in September. Even at that time the release date was Q4 2009.
My apologies if I'm misunderstanding the gist of your post, but the way you state it sounds as if you got the impression that they were only 2-3 months away from release when they started selling preorders in July.
My apologies if I'm misunderstanding the gist of your post, but the way you state it sounds as if you got the impression that they were only 2-3 months away from release when they started selling preorders in July.
IIRC, I did say it might be a minor point. Even so, it is still a point. . Almost all MMOs run into delays, so expectations should take this into account. A 2 month development cycle extending to 10+ months is significantly worse than 6 months extending to 10+ months.
As for the no returns if they have state on their website they give no returns then it doesn't matter if it's in a big red font or tiny white one. The fact of the matter is they don't have to give a refund as they advertised that fact before you purchased the game. Yeah they may not have pointed you at it but as a consumer you do have some responsibility to check something out before you purchase.
However it doesn't make you feel any better and many companies like to put stuff like that in the small print, SV aren't the first and won't be the last. You say the site lagged and you didn't see the notice of no refunds before purchase, again that isn't SV's responsibility. It's like saying I'm dyslexic and didn't see it, well that's your fault not theirs.
I'm sorry you feel so bad about it, were you duped with a confidence trick? It's hard to say but in my opinion you fell victim to SV's niaevity and lack of experience and your own lack of patience when purchasing. Although I'm sure if you did read the no returns policy at the time you'd have bought it anyway.
Still you have just cause to be mad.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
This may be a minor point, but Starvault never announced that they were shipping the game in September, they announced that they were shipping the boxes with the Beta client in September. Even at that time the release date was Q4 2009.
My apologies if I'm misunderstanding the gist of your post, but the way you state it sounds as if you got the impression that they were only 2-3 months away from release when they started selling preorders in July.
OK.. you link to a thread that doesn't even have Devs posting in it. Regardless.. here is the point and it's NOT minor:
They said they were SHIPPING the game in Sept. Now.. every single game I have ever heard of ships a game at release. Yes, maybe a few days early to allow transit time and then there is a reasonable sized patch. Can you name other games where a company said they were SHIPPING a game and it wasn't complete? Perhaps a developer did post as reply number 2234 on someones thread stating that they were only shipping an empty box with a useless(unpatchable) DVD and clarifying that release would be Q4. Thats just another example of the pure bullshit that is SV. In my opinion.. a PERFECT example of how they say one thing to get out into the public and then issue a clarification buried where noone will see it but the fans can point to and say "LOOK THEY SAID THAT!!" And hey.. Im not even gonna TOUCH on the fact that I didn't get my box until MARCH....(nor the fact that they sent it even though I told then not to and had already recovered my money and interest).
This is the trend of shady business practices that the company has used since day one. Just look at the FEATURES tab of the website. It still contains lots of items not in the game... and this is half a year after it was originally supposed to launch. Instead of updating the features tab to show whats really in the game, they issue a small news clicky half a year ago that the fans point to and say "Hey look this is what they said would be in the game.. just basic this and basic that. So SV is actually giving us MORE than they promised".
Anyhow.. the gist is that Agricola wanted to know what drives me. I explained my reasoning and he understands it. He is entitled to his enjoyment of the game but now he seems to at least understand that there are some legitimate reasons for calling the company on the carpet.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
As for the no returns if they have state on their website they give no returns then it doesn't matter if it's in a big red font or tiny white one. The fact of the matter is they don't have to give a refund as they advertised that fact before you purchased the game. Yeah they may not have pointed you at it but as a consumer you do have some responsibility to check something out before you purchase.
However it doesn't make you feel any better and many companies like to put stuff like that in the small print, SV aren't the first and won't be the last. You say the site lagged and you didn't see the notice of no refunds before purchase, again that isn't SV's responsibility. It's like saying I'm dyslexic and didn't see it, well that's your fault not theirs.
I'm sorry you feel so bad about it, were you duped with a confidence trick? It's hard to say but in my opinion you fell victim to SV's niaevity and lack of experience and your own lack of patience when purchasing. Although I'm sure if you did read the no returns policy at the time you'd have bought it anyway.
Still you have just cause to be mad.
I won't get deeply into this as the end result it the same (You agree I have just cause to be mad) but you are incorrect in your first paragraph. By EU law and by terms of using US Credit Cards a blanket "no refund" policy is not allowed. It is NOT the consumers responsibility to go searching a site as they are guaranteed certain protections. The important one that applied to me was that their agreements with Visa state that they have to deliver the product you paid for within 30 days after charging you. This prevents a company from doing exactly what SV has done... take your money and then unilaterally decide to convert your purchase to an open ended loan. In this case taking folks money in July 2009 and still not delivering the product as of April 2010.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The only thing that can make this thread better would be a picture of Smedley and Henrik holding hands at a private beach.
Then I would love to see Agricola's responses.
In regards to this game. I haven't bothered to try to play it. I read about tons of patcher and downloader and installer issues that dissuaded me from making the attempt. Now I plan to wait for the game to shape up before taking interest.
And honestly, taking money and not providing anything promised aside from intangibles for months is shady. Nothing from SV seems to be clearly legit.
Many people share your feelings about preordering. I don't think anyone has argued against taking a wait and see approach rather than ordering the game while it's still in development. Personally, I wouldn't particularly mind the money even if the Dev team got killed by an Icelandic volcanic ash cloud and the game never released. Because of that, preordering was the right choice for me.
@ slapshot:
OK that clarifies the bit about whether you expected the game to ship / "go gold" in September. The thread I posted was the thing that most directly addressed that issue and the OP seemed to think it was pretty clear that a September release was not planned. Since you would prefer a more authoritative statement here is Mats Persson "We are not planning a release in September. We are planning to release the game in Q4. That's Oct-Nov-Dec." http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/299414-post146.html
And here is the June news: Mortal Online Beta phases
We strongly feel that we want these features to have reached a “polished and proper” state before starting the monthly subscriptions, but as always when it comes to game development it’s hard to estimate how long this will actually take. That said we are aiming to reach this state (and start the monthly subscriptions) in Q4 2009, when all the core features above should be in place and thoroughly tested.
The Mortal Online Game Store is opening anytime now. This update targets some of the questions regarding the release, the shop, and the Beta. It is also a disclaimer to protect both you and ourselves. We want you to join our Beta and support the development of the game, but we also want you to know what you are up for!
The physical products will be shipped from Sweden around September. Further updates before the launch of the full game will be shipped free of charge in connection to the launch. When buying a physical version you are also allowed to download the game, and play it in your corresponding Beta block.
The launch of Mortal Online is planned for Q4 2009 (Oct-Dec). This is not set in stone however, as we want all core features to be in place and properly tested before charging monthly subscriptions. We do not guarantee a specific release date for Mortal Online.
You're in for a rough ride, but we are excited for those of you who want to embark on this journey with us!
If you were expecting the game to launch in September rather than Q4, it's not for any lack of them announcing Q4 as the expected launch date. Granted, they've now passed that expected release date, but the only MMO (that I know of) that didn't have any development delays is STO.
Many people share your feelings about preordering. I don't think anyone has argued against taking a wait and see approach rather than ordering the game while it's still in development. Personally, I wouldn't particularly mind the money even if the Dev team got killed by an Icelandic volcanic ash cloud and the game never released. Because of that, preordering was the right choice for me.
@ slapshot:
OK that clarifies the bit about whether you expected the game to ship / "go gold" in September. The thread I posted was the thing that most directly addressed that issue and the OP seemed to think it was pretty clear that a September release was not planned. Since you would prefer a more authoritative statement here is Mats Persson "We are not planning a release in September. We are planning to release the game in Q4. That's Oct-Nov-Dec." http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/299414-post146.html
And here is the June news: Mortal Online Beta phases
We strongly feel that we want these features to have reached a “polished and proper” state before starting the monthly subscriptions, but as always when it comes to game development it’s hard to estimate how long this will actually take. That said we are aiming to reach this state (and start the monthly subscriptions) in Q4 2009, when all the core features above should be in place and thoroughly tested.
Yes.. like I said... he posted reply #146 in a thread. Not very useful particularly when it was done before the Dev Tracker was created... WAAAAY before that in the same thread he posted about shipping the game in Sept. That post said nothing about shipping an empty box with a worthless DVD.
When a company says it is shipping the game in Sept.. the expectation of 99.999% of people would be that the game would be launching at or near its shipping date. No other company I have ever heard of has "shipped" a game months and months before launch. To try and put the blame for this rediculous, non-standard and unheard of practice on the shoulders of the customer is simply not acceptable.
HA HA yeah silly customer.. they said they were shipping in Sept (but you didnt actually get your box till March) but they were only shipping boxes! if you had researched the forums you would have known that they were only sending empty boxes and not the game and the game won't be out as of April of the following year!!
Give me a break. In my opinion the defenders of this practice are way out of line. Particularly when you take into account that the box wasn't received until MARCH.. not even Sept.. and the game STILL isn't released. AND THEY STILL WON'T WILLINGLY GIVE YOUR MONEY BACK AFTER ALMOST A YEAR!
It doesn't really matter though as thats not the point of this thread. As I said.. Agricola asked WHY some people hate the company so much. I explained my reasons and he accepts them. You Osmunda may love the actions of the company.. and go right ahead. I'm not asking you to explain why you like them. I could honestly care less. I have simply explained why I despise them.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Not saying that I love their business practices, but they did clearly state an expected launch date in the news for June titled-Mortal Online Beta phases, Mortal Online Release Plan, Shop Opening Soon, Mortal Online Races
and July 13th titled Shop and Game Version information, MO System Requirements (an estimation), Beta testing and gameplay.
Since the July 13th news is also when they announced that the online store was opening, I'd have to say that was adequate to convey the expected launch date. If you are upset at the delay from Q4 til now, the only defense I can give is that delays are common (which is honestly not much of a defense, it just shows that it is a systemic flaw and not specific to Star Vault) There are certainly plenty of valid critiques of Mortal. I'm just saying that the expectation of a September launch was a faulty assumption.
P.S. I got a copy of the SWG beta client shipped to me before the launch of SWG.
Not saying that I love their business practices, but they did clearly state an expected launch date in the news for June titled-Mortal Online Beta phases, Mortal Online Release Plan, Shop Opening Soon, Mortal Online Races
and July 13th titled Shop and Game Version information, MO System Requirements (an estimation), Beta testing and gameplay.
Since the July 13th news is also when they announced that the online store was opening, I'd have to say that was adequate to convey the expected launch date. If you are upset at the delay from Q4 til now, the only defense I can give is that delays are common (which is honestly not much of a defense, it just shows that it is a systemic flaw and not specific to Star Vault) There are certainly plenty of valid critiques of Mortal. I'm just saying that the expectation of a September launch was a faulty assumption.
P.S. I got a copy of the SWG beta client shipped to me before the launch of SWG.
REAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLY?
So your saying that Sony said they were shipping SWG.. and instead sent you a box with the Beta CD? Because thats not what I remember. I remember them sending me beta CDs (like many other companies.. hey.. Ultima Online maybe?) that had nothing to do with my purchase of the game. I think I paid a few dollars to Sony to ship the BETA CD. SV on the other hand.. said they were shipping in Sept.. and sent a box in March.. the box didn't even contain the released game but rather a useless and un-updateable client on a DVD with nothing else in the box. When I purchased the actual SWG game.. I got the SWG CDs in the box.. installed them that night.. put my information in... and played the released version of the game. Like happens with every other game in existance except for Mortal Online... yet somehow.. that's the customers fault.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
@ Slapshot:
This may be a minor point, but Starvault never announced that they were shipping the game in September, they announced that they were shipping the boxes with the Beta client in September. Even at that time the release date was Q4 2009.
http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/15673-game-not-being-released-sep.html
My apologies if I'm misunderstanding the gist of your post, but the way you state it sounds as if you got the impression that they were only 2-3 months away from release when they started selling preorders in July.
2-3 or 3-6 as highlighted in your post.
yet here we are going on 10-11 months later...
I win!!! LOL@U
IIRC, I did say it might be a minor point. Even so, it is still a point. . Almost all MMOs run into delays, so expectations should take this into account. A 2 month development cycle extending to 10+ months is significantly worse than 6 months extending to 10+ months.
I try my hardest ... then 20 minutes later when I've got my breath back I try again
@Slap
As for the no returns if they have state on their website they give no returns then it doesn't matter if it's in a big red font or tiny white one. The fact of the matter is they don't have to give a refund as they advertised that fact before you purchased the game. Yeah they may not have pointed you at it but as a consumer you do have some responsibility to check something out before you purchase.
However it doesn't make you feel any better and many companies like to put stuff like that in the small print, SV aren't the first and won't be the last. You say the site lagged and you didn't see the notice of no refunds before purchase, again that isn't SV's responsibility. It's like saying I'm dyslexic and didn't see it, well that's your fault not theirs.
I'm sorry you feel so bad about it, were you duped with a confidence trick? It's hard to say but in my opinion you fell victim to SV's niaevity and lack of experience and your own lack of patience when purchasing. Although I'm sure if you did read the no returns policy at the time you'd have bought it anyway.
Still you have just cause to be mad.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
OK.. you link to a thread that doesn't even have Devs posting in it. Regardless.. here is the point and it's NOT minor:
They said they were SHIPPING the game in Sept. Now.. every single game I have ever heard of ships a game at release. Yes, maybe a few days early to allow transit time and then there is a reasonable sized patch. Can you name other games where a company said they were SHIPPING a game and it wasn't complete? Perhaps a developer did post as reply number 2234 on someones thread stating that they were only shipping an empty box with a useless(unpatchable) DVD and clarifying that release would be Q4. Thats just another example of the pure bullshit that is SV. In my opinion.. a PERFECT example of how they say one thing to get out into the public and then issue a clarification buried where noone will see it but the fans can point to and say "LOOK THEY SAID THAT!!" And hey.. Im not even gonna TOUCH on the fact that I didn't get my box until MARCH....(nor the fact that they sent it even though I told then not to and had already recovered my money and interest).
This is the trend of shady business practices that the company has used since day one. Just look at the FEATURES tab of the website. It still contains lots of items not in the game... and this is half a year after it was originally supposed to launch. Instead of updating the features tab to show whats really in the game, they issue a small news clicky half a year ago that the fans point to and say "Hey look this is what they said would be in the game.. just basic this and basic that. So SV is actually giving us MORE than they promised".
Anyhow.. the gist is that Agricola wanted to know what drives me. I explained my reasoning and he understands it. He is entitled to his enjoyment of the game but now he seems to at least understand that there are some legitimate reasons for calling the company on the carpet.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I won't get deeply into this as the end result it the same (You agree I have just cause to be mad) but you are incorrect in your first paragraph. By EU law and by terms of using US Credit Cards a blanket "no refund" policy is not allowed. It is NOT the consumers responsibility to go searching a site as they are guaranteed certain protections. The important one that applied to me was that their agreements with Visa state that they have to deliver the product you paid for within 30 days after charging you. This prevents a company from doing exactly what SV has done... take your money and then unilaterally decide to convert your purchase to an open ended loan. In this case taking folks money in July 2009 and still not delivering the product as of April 2010.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The only thing that can make this thread better would be a picture of Smedley and Henrik holding hands at a private beach.
Then I would love to see Agricola's responses.
In regards to this game. I haven't bothered to try to play it. I read about tons of patcher and downloader and installer issues that dissuaded me from making the attempt. Now I plan to wait for the game to shape up before taking interest.
And honestly, taking money and not providing anything promised aside from intangibles for months is shady. Nothing from SV seems to be clearly legit.
@ Nightcloak:
Many people share your feelings about preordering. I don't think anyone has argued against taking a wait and see approach rather than ordering the game while it's still in development. Personally, I wouldn't particularly mind the money even if the Dev team got killed by an Icelandic volcanic ash cloud and the game never released. Because of that, preordering was the right choice for me.
@ slapshot:
OK that clarifies the bit about whether you expected the game to ship / "go gold" in September. The thread I posted was the thing that most directly addressed that issue and the OP seemed to think it was pretty clear that a September release was not planned. Since you would prefer a more authoritative statement here is Mats Persson "We are not planning a release in September. We are planning to release the game in Q4. That's Oct-Nov-Dec." http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/299414-post146.html
And here is the June news: Mortal Online Beta phases
We strongly feel that we want these features to have reached a “polished and proper” state before starting the monthly subscriptions, but as always when it comes to game development it’s hard to estimate how long this will actually take. That said we are aiming to reach this state (and start the monthly subscriptions) in Q4 2009, when all the core features above should be in place and thoroughly tested.
http://www.mortalonline.com/news/june-05-06-09
Oh and the July 13th news:
The Mortal Online Game Store is opening anytime now. This update targets some of the questions regarding the release, the shop, and the Beta. It is also a disclaimer to protect both you and ourselves. We want you to join our Beta and support the development of the game, but we also want you to know what you are up for!
The physical products will be shipped from Sweden around September. Further updates before the launch of the full game will be shipped free of charge in connection to the launch. When buying a physical version you are also allowed to download the game, and play it in your corresponding Beta block.
The launch of Mortal Online is planned for Q4 2009 (Oct-Dec). This is not set in stone however, as we want all core features to be in place and properly tested before charging monthly subscriptions. We do not guarantee a specific release date for Mortal Online.
You're in for a rough ride, but we are excited for those of you who want to embark on this journey with us!
/the MO Dev Team http://www.mortalonline.com/news/july-13-07-09
If you were expecting the game to launch in September rather than Q4, it's not for any lack of them announcing Q4 as the expected launch date. Granted, they've now passed that expected release date, but the only MMO (that I know of) that didn't have any development delays is STO.
Yes.. like I said... he posted reply #146 in a thread. Not very useful particularly when it was done before the Dev Tracker was created... WAAAAY before that in the same thread he posted about shipping the game in Sept. That post said nothing about shipping an empty box with a worthless DVD.
When a company says it is shipping the game in Sept.. the expectation of 99.999% of people would be that the game would be launching at or near its shipping date. No other company I have ever heard of has "shipped" a game months and months before launch. To try and put the blame for this rediculous, non-standard and unheard of practice on the shoulders of the customer is simply not acceptable.
HA HA yeah silly customer.. they said they were shipping in Sept (but you didnt actually get your box till March) but they were only shipping boxes! if you had researched the forums you would have known that they were only sending empty boxes and not the game and the game won't be out as of April of the following year!!
Give me a break. In my opinion the defenders of this practice are way out of line. Particularly when you take into account that the box wasn't received until MARCH.. not even Sept.. and the game STILL isn't released. AND THEY STILL WON'T WILLINGLY GIVE YOUR MONEY BACK AFTER ALMOST A YEAR!
It doesn't really matter though as thats not the point of this thread. As I said.. Agricola asked WHY some people hate the company so much. I explained my reasons and he accepts them. You Osmunda may love the actions of the company.. and go right ahead. I'm not asking you to explain why you like them. I could honestly care less. I have simply explained why I despise them.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Not saying that I love their business practices, but they did clearly state an expected launch date in the news for June titled-Mortal Online Beta phases, Mortal Online Release Plan, Shop Opening Soon, Mortal Online Races
and July 13th titled Shop and Game Version information, MO System Requirements (an estimation), Beta testing and gameplay.
Since the July 13th news is also when they announced that the online store was opening, I'd have to say that was adequate to convey the expected launch date. If you are upset at the delay from Q4 til now, the only defense I can give is that delays are common (which is honestly not much of a defense, it just shows that it is a systemic flaw and not specific to Star Vault) There are certainly plenty of valid critiques of Mortal. I'm just saying that the expectation of a September launch was a faulty assumption.
P.S. I got a copy of the SWG beta client shipped to me before the launch of SWG.
REAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLY?
So your saying that Sony said they were shipping SWG.. and instead sent you a box with the Beta CD? Because thats not what I remember. I remember them sending me beta CDs (like many other companies.. hey.. Ultima Online maybe?) that had nothing to do with my purchase of the game. I think I paid a few dollars to Sony to ship the BETA CD. SV on the other hand.. said they were shipping in Sept.. and sent a box in March.. the box didn't even contain the released game but rather a useless and un-updateable client on a DVD with nothing else in the box. When I purchased the actual SWG game.. I got the SWG CDs in the box.. installed them that night.. put my information in... and played the released version of the game. Like happens with every other game in existance except for Mortal Online... yet somehow.. that's the customers fault.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018