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Truly Need before Greed
rebelhero1
Member Posts: 229
Is there already a thread like this? Maybe. Probably. Oh well.
I'm not currently (actively) playing any MMO at the moment. I still jump on WoW once or twice a month during those moment where I get really bored.
Well, today was one such day.
I pugged Forge of Souls for the daily and it went rather swimmingly so we decided to hop into Pit of Saron. Now, I was on my Warlock. While I seldom play anymore he easily outgears pretty much anything in 5 mans. Anyway, that axe dropped from the last boss (lol I can't remember the boss's name or the axe's name... whatever, the guy on the skele dragon) and we had a kind fellow who was clearly a relatively fresh 80.
He was a Draenei Warrior. Personally, I hate Alliance with a passion however, I had transferred my Orclock to a Human to play with my cousin (who quit right after, WEWT). I just wanted you all to know that.
Now onto the meat of the story.
The axe dropped and it would've clearly been a HUGE upgrade to his/her blue. So we're all like "gratz broskie" and what-not. He was all excited. "I just recently got to level 80. Most people just kick me out of the group, thank you for being kind enough to allow me to stay and to have the chance at a weapon like this so soon turning 80." Honestly, I was rather moved by such sincerity, which I suppose is what provided the drive to make this post.
Well, I passed, one guy greeded (out of habit, I'd wager) the other guy passed, our friendly warrior clicked need.... then, it happened.
This Paladin, he had a gear score so high that he had an aura of ungodly power emitting from his body.
He had that axe from ICC 25, whatever it's called.
He clicked need and won.
"What in the hell would you EVER need that for?!" I shouted with a righteous fury.
"It sells for a lot of gold" he calmly stated as he left the group.
"It's fine lol" said the kind young warrior. "One day I'll be better than him".
"No, my friend, you already are..."
So, that silly story aside...
What I'm saying applies to more than WoW which is why I put it in general to hear all y'allz thoughts. Since the game is already turning hardcore carebear shouldn't there be something to protect players from ridiculous douchebaggery such as that?
I mean, if the guy is holding a freaking axe from ICC 25 with all better stats, should he be able to legitimately click "Need".
I mean, for any gear based game. Actions like are just hurtful to the community. Especially considering that nub with the ICC gear was pulling 4.5k deeps. He needed something, but I don't think the 25 gold from that axe was it.
Thoughts?
Playing: *sigh* back to WoW 
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Waiting for: SW:TOR, APB, WoD
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Played and loved: Eve and WoW
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Played and hated: WoW:WotLK, Warhammer, every single F2P
Comments
You want Blizzard to add a rule that if you have an item of greater than the item level by some amount, you can't roll need?
Get ready to be called a carebear if you ever post that on the WOW forums.
This would be almost as bad as removing plate/mail wearers from leather and cloth rolls was.
And off specs need to be considered. If there is a particular item that is well below ones gear level which one desires, you should state so prior to running the instance so rage does not ensue.
Make it so...
I like Warhammer Online's loot system. Most gear is class dependent and there is a system that only allows a player to need if they can use that item. That and the loot bags I think nicely soles the need/greed problem. I don't know if a similar system operates in any other games but I feel this is the best way to deal with the issue.
Had a similar event happen to me. Had someone with a far better axe roll need on it when I recently hit 80 and stole it. Had to run PoS another 8 times before the axe dropped again and then I was up against 2 other players that needed it, but luckily I won the roll.
What you said and what I experienced was clearly a ninja tactic and should be reported to Blizzard since he clearly said he wanted to just sell it when another member of the group needed it!
And I don't give a fuck how many of you wanna cry carebear on this, learn some proper online ettique and be fair to your fellow players...heh {wait this is WoW...that would never happen...carry on!}
The complete douchebag onine personality of the pally you just described....is part of why WoW's community over all is such complete and utter shit.
The game mechanics encourage an attitude of selfishness and disregard for the needs of others. I mean...after all...if it benefits ME...why the fuck would I want to help someone else out by letting them have it? Who cares if they helped to get it? Who cares if they need it? What a lovely example of team work.
But it was a PuG....using the LFD tool....so you'll never likely see the guy again and his reputation for being a dick....won't be known to anyone except the people he's probably done that to on his own server, who probably won't group with him anymore. That's what the PuG tool is good for....it's a GREAT way for selfish jackasses to still get to group.
And the LFSP (looking for shitty PuG) tool they've added....just gives you the opportunity to meet MORE people with shitty personalities from other servers, as if the asshats from your OWN server weren't enough. PuGs have always sucked. Having a "tool" that encourages people to do them all day...oh yippy.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
need before greed is dead. it died when player reputations actually stopped meaning anything in mmos. it used to be if u were a ninja looter you would have a very hard time ever getting into groups. you were known very fast. so you were either a: a good player and let it go to who needed it, b: a greedy player but didnt want to spend hours looking for a party so you let it go to who actually needed it, or the rare c: an asshole and you ran off with the item you couldnt even equip while someone else actually needed it. wow came, the end.
Whoa, someone's been drinking the hateraide.
Most PUG groups found with the LFG tool are fine. There are problems and jerks sure, but there were problems and jerks before the LFG tool was around.
And the jerks aren't all limited to WoW.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
No, but the MAJORITY are.
See, this sounds like a nice idea in theory. But in reality, the complexities around what is a "better" piece of gear would make this an unworkable nightmare. What would you base it on? Item level? There are many cases where a lower-level item is better for your class/spec due to distribution of stats, weapon speed, all sorts of factors. Yes, the guy in your example was a dickhead, I agree that he absolutely didn't need that axe and that he flat-out ninja'd it - but I don't believe it is possible to put together a ruleset that would prevent that, without causing all sorts of collateral damage.
Better looting rules would certainly improve things.
The slight negatives (being unable to Need leather DPS upgrades as a mail-user) have always been worth the substantial positives, when blizzard has improved looting rules in the past.
Honestly it's pretty tempting nowadays for my priest (who can disenchant -- and thus profit -- from any item) to simply Need everything the system lets me. You can't kick my character for like 10-15 minutes of the run. Most runs are 10-15 minutes total. Even if you could kick me, you might not want to because healers are time-consuming to replace.
So it's a degenerative system which encourages jerkiness. Superior rules and/or accountability are needed.
And again, it's not worth going back to non-cross-server dungeon finding. The substantial positives of dungeon finding are absolutely worth these slight negatives. Fix the slight negatives and things will be perfect. Just don't amputate a leg when the patient has a hangnail -- fix or remove the hangnail instead.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Generally a mistake from my experience.
I can definitely see what you're getting at but I think what you're suggesting could be difficult to implement. It's been years since I played WoW but back when I played Paladins would always need roll on what was supposed to be priest gear, which they'd wear if ever they needed to fill the role of healer (in the absence of sufficient priests). It was incredibly annoying (me being a priest) to watch my guild's 500 paladins need roll on equipment meant for priests (i.e. me) but....
So I think it could be difficult for the game to establish who really needs what as what qualifies as 'need' can genuinely get a little weird.
I think the paladin in your tale really was a mong. But he's precisely the kind of mong whose actions really encourage players to find good guilds. Finding a good guild can be really rewarding, so I see that as the silver lining to this very dark cloud.
You know, you make a very good point. It's a double-edged sword of sorts. But the only thing is, this also discourages good players from continuing.
The young man in my story for example. While he was indeed a noob it was clear to me while doing those two runs that he was easily going to be very good someday.
He worked very well with the team, learned from his mistakes and was very kind.
However, because he was relatively new and being treated like this it could easily lend weight to the "bad first impressions" kind of thing of the game. He might never want to play again if he has too many experiences like this, I know I wouldn't.
I just don't understand people's mindsets sometimes. The guy was incredibly nice and it wasn't like he sucked. I suppose they just don't get out enough.
Playing: *sigh* back to WoW
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Waiting for: SW:TOR, APB, WoD
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Played and loved: Eve and WoW
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Played and hated: WoW:WotLK, Warhammer, every single F2P
QQ, it's bad enough that items are bound and the game feels like a communist playground which forces morals upon you.
That's not the point.
The point is that the community (not just WoW, but MMOs in general minus games like Eve... wonder why that is?!?!) is so bad that I'm surprised you don't find the occasional Blood Elf hanging from a statue in the middle of Dalaran with a note that says "THEY NEVER LOVED ME" attached to him via dagger to the scrotum. The loot system encourages you to be selfish which is counter-productive to the point of the game.
If someone needs something, there's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be able to have it if they earned it. And if they want the possibility for ninja loot then at least make it so I can kill them and take their shit.
THEN it's all good. But as-is it's no-risk, high-reward to ninja.
Do you understand? The loot system in, not just WoW, but most other gear based games I've gotten my paws on just uses a fundamentally flawed loot system simply because they're too damn lazy to do anything else.
Playing: *sigh* back to WoW
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Waiting for: SW:TOR, APB, WoD
---------
Played and loved: Eve and WoW
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Played and hated: WoW:WotLK, Warhammer, every single F2P
I stopped playing WoW some years ago just because the community got so bad or it was always kind of bad but the oldtimers that had played since launch pretty much left in 2006 and in their stead we got the jackasses.
Only good thing about it is that the asshats will only be able to asshat each other now.
All those memories will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.
7 am on a friday after a night of drinking I wake up and read this. Man you made me laugh out loud. You started off my day right and for that I thank you.
as for thoughts: This is WoW we're talking about.... Are you really so shocked at the actions of without a doubt the most e-peen/worry only about your self game on the market?
I'm sure there are ways that loot rules could be tightened up but there are limits to how much you can really codify what represents need or greed. There are lots of inferior items which can still work better in certain situations, for certain specs or fit better with other gear that you might have.
In the example given it sure sounds like the Paladin was simply being a jerk but if there had been a few situations in which he intended to use that Axe I think he had every right to roll, even though the other player clearly needed it more.
In any event, increasing loot rules is really just papering over the cracks caused by the underlying issues: Dysfunctional communities and a lack of consequences for general asshattery. While looting is certainly a lightening rod for antisocial behaviour it is only a symptom of a much wider malaise.
On a sidenote, while the Paladin's actions may have reinforced some people's ideas about WoW players it's also worth noting that the other player involved was appreciative of the help he received and took his misfortune with good grace.
THIS.
I couldn't have said it better (all of it, but in particular the part in red). I would not mind losing a roll to someone if they were rolling on something they were planning on using, even if I did need it more. It's all part of the game.
As for the line in blue, this is also true. But if I had to honestly reply to that I'd say "indeed, he was a great guy and I'd love to play with him again. However, in my experience the ratio of douchebagerry to kind/considerate is so ridiculous that it's irrelevant. In the end, if you pug, 9/10 times you'll be in a group where you say NOTHING or someone will be a complete asshat/elitist asshat/dude-that-sucks-but-blames-everyone-else. I've actually had people get mad at me for typing 'hey guys, how's it going' since it was 'wasting his time' or 'you could be getting ready the whole time you were typing'. In the end it's just all about #1 to them. Such an attitude in an MMO should definitely NOT be the norm, but it is. It's actually a vast majority. But to be fair, there are a lot of great, fun to be with, nice AND good players out there to whom I would like to thank for all the fun in WoW that I've had over the years. They ARE out there.... you just REAAALLLLLYYYYY have to dig."
But since I'm optimistic I'll just go with it the way you said it.
Playing: *sigh* back to WoW
--------
Waiting for: SW:TOR, APB, WoD
---------
Played and loved: Eve and WoW
--------
Played and hated: WoW:WotLK, Warhammer, every single F2P
The conventional definition of "need" is that the item is an upgrade for the character that helped defeat the mob from which it dropped. (That's my definition for PUGs)
Some people think it means the same thing, but taking into account how significant the upgrade would be versus someone else needing it much more. (That's my definition for friends and guildmates, and PUGs if I'm feeling generous).
Some people mean the same thing, but taking into account that some poor schmuck has gone a really long time without winning anything (not just for that encounter, but weeks), so they have a greater need. (That is my definition for friends and really cool guildmates).
Some people think need means it would be an upgrade for one of their alts, if transferable.
Some people think it means the item has any value, such as resale value.
Because people fight about this all the time, the best thing to do is to have an understanding among the group before something drops. Also, expect loot whoring by people you don't know.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Only way I could see getting around this is for all the members of the party to vote who should get the weapon when they meet the egibility for the item.
So all who pass will then get a window for those who needed. Then they can cast their vote to give that person a bonus to their roll.
Only way I can see it being griefed is if you are playing with a guild you are not a member of, or a group of friends that just picked you up.
But you should avoid those groups like the plague anywho, you already start with the short end of the stick there.
That's why we have laws. To make sure thsoe who lack intelligence or common sense to govern themselves are kept in check so they don't screw up life for the rest who can.
That's what makes us evolved, and not a bunch of apes crapping and pissing on one another. We wish to evolve...
Welll - that Paladin didnt NEEDed the weapon.
If you press NEED, you should actually NEED the item.
An idea to solve that that would be: if you press GREED, you dont get the item, you instead get a share of the money for the item.
If you press NEED, you get the item itself, and its value is neglible (and its soulbound).
Alternatively, the item remembers the group you where in when you got the item, and when you no longer need it and sell it, everyone gets their share for it.
In any case, WoW doesnt do anything like that, so in this game, the Paladin proved his assholery, but was right inside his rights.
No 'master looter' in WoW? That'd solve the problem a hell of a lot easier if you aske me.
Then make your own game and create a new way to go about it, you say its a "fundamentally flawed loot system" will then make your own game and stop blaming developers for being "too damn lazy to do anything else". I dont complain about the loot system cause honestly I'm not going to sit down and try to figure out better alternatives I'll just play a different game with a different system. If you dont like it, then dont play games that have it; its not like this system hasnt been out for years or anything and its pros and cons have been shown and discussed.
You say the loot system is flawed, and then you say the community is terrible because "the system encourages you to be selfish which is counter-productive to the point of the game" ah?..people are selfish even without a "flawed" loot system, saying eve is all spice and everything nice is ridiculous...every loot system has its pros and cons, nothing is perfect.
HEAVEN OR HELL
Duel 1
Lets ROCK!
Only in WOW raids.
This won't solve the problem a bit in 5 man PUG. How can you trust anyone not to just horde whatever to himself? Probably worse than the "need" over greed system.
Also, 5-man is so easy that you can run it again and again and eventually get the axe.
There is no way to completely shut out bad behavior in a multiplayer game.