No 'master looter' in WoW? That'd solve the problem a hell of a lot easier if you aske me.
Only in WOW raids.
This won't solve the problem a bit in 5 man PUG. How can you trust anyone not to just horde whatever to himself? Probably worse than the "need" over greed system.
Also, 5-man is so easy that you can run it again and again and eventually get the axe.
There is no way to completely shut out bad behavior in a multiplayer game.
It's a lot easier to detect douchebaggery early on if the master looter hoards, of course you never know what happens when that omfg piece of armor or weapon drops. I always demand master looter when PuG'ing to deter ninjas, and never had any problems.
And the LFSP (looking for shitty PuG) tool they've added....just gives you the opportunity to meet MORE people with shitty personalities from other servers, as if the asshats from your OWN server weren't enough. PuGs have always sucked. Having a "tool" that encourages people to do them all day...oh yippy.
Whoa, someone's been drinking the hateraide.
Not at all. I don't hate WoW...I hate some of the mechanics they have implemented over the years.
Most PUG groups found with the LFG tool are fine. There are problems and jerks sure, but there were problems and jerks before the LFG tool was around.
Which is precisely why I do NOT PuG. Adding a tool to PuG in one or more people...doesn't help me at all, because I don't "believe" in PuGing when you have a guild of people you have known for years and are known to be trustworthy. I would rather solo than PuG. I don't have to worry about the jerks that way.
And the jerks aren't all limited to WoW.
I don't recall ever saying they were.....but the example the other poster gave....was from WoW.
Which is precisely why I do NOT PuG. Adding a tool to PuG in one or more people...doesn't help me at all, because I don't "believe" in PuGing when you have a guild of people you have known for years and are known to be trustworthy. I would rather solo than PuG. I don't have to worry about the jerks that way.
That is your choice. However, MOST people would obviously go to a PUG if their long term trustworthy friends are not on at the time. That is why this tool is SO popular.
And remember .. you don't have to just suffer .. be a jerk and strike back. Sometimes it is even fun. You can also rage-quit in the middle of a fight and hope that the jerk you grouped with willl wipe.
QQ, it's bad enough that items are bound and the game feels like a communist playground which forces morals upon you.
That's why we have laws. To make sure thsoe who lack intelligence or common sense to govern themselves are kept in check so they don't screw up life for the rest who can.
That's what makes us evolved, and not a bunch of apes crapping and pissing on one another. We wish to evolve...
See the problem here though...perfectly outlined by the poster you responded to is...the fact that some people don't have a natural built in moral code of ethics. They feel morals are "forced upon" them. They look at things from the short-sighted standpoint of "what's in it for ME," and don't consider the long term implications of how things affect the ares OUTSIDE of 2 inches from their noses.
Selfish, self-serving people are short-sighted. They are unable (or unwilling) to accept any societal implications of their actions, attitudes and behaviors, and therefore don't consider themselves responsible, even indirectly, for anything that happens outside of their own personal body space.
When you fail to consider the ripple effect of your own actions on the world as a whole, whether in RL or in a game, what happens is that eventually....as we've seen in WoW....the society or community begins to gradually devolve and break down. And eventually....the place will become uninhabitable. For me....WoW reached that point a while back.
In the real world...people who behave sociopathically, criminally narcissistically, or anti-socially...often get imprisoned and removed from society for the good of the REST of society. Unfortunately....we don't have that system in video games.
Which is precisely why I do NOT PuG. Adding a tool to PuG in one or more people...doesn't help me at all, because I don't "believe" in PuGing when you have a guild of people you have known for years and are known to be trustworthy. I would rather solo than PuG. I don't have to worry about the jerks that way.
That is your choice. However, MOST people would obviously go to a PUG if their long term trustworthy friends are not on at the time. That is why this tool is SO popular.
And remember .. you don't have to just suffer .. be a jerk and strike back. Sometimes it is even fun. You can also rage-quit in the middle of a fight and hope that the jerk you grouped with willl wipe.
I tend to look at things from a more long-sighted perspective. I don't see how lowering my behavioral choices to the level of someone else's...ultimately provides any benefit that isn't simply a short term satisfaction. It only compounds the problem. That's not the kind of example I would want to set for anyone. What goes around....comes around. The paladin in the example someone gave....he'll get his. Guaranteed that at some point...someone will yank a piece of gear that HE needs, since he did that to someone else. And it would certainly be justice coming to visit him. I think real life works like that much of the time too. Sadly....we don't usually get to see the offender getting their recompense, but....I believe they do.
Also, 5-man is so easy that you can run it again and again and eventually get the axe.
There is no way to completely shut out bad behavior in a multiplayer game.
So true ...
This whole discussion is ridiculous. 5 man heroics are for gearing up your alts to do the serious end Raids.
Just for those not playing WOW: the weapon that drops in the OP's dungeon metioned is a level ...232 weapon.
Even in doing a simple 10 man Raid ICC (with an on Realm PUG or with a little guild) will give you a 251 weapon.
So there simply is no drama in heroic dungeon runs.
(perhaps one exception for the battered hilt quest drop but that is so much worth everyone would just simply need, even the ones who already had it).
I have to laugh when reading posts about ex-players who simply have no clue why the heroic runs are included : they are to upgrade your characters with badges to acquire around 25% of a gear set for the final Raids.
People who think the heroic (badge) loot is the final step in the game don't understand the new game mechanics at all.
Long boring attunement solo play was replaced with an excellent and smooth grouping tool you can do at your own pace.
The actual play and challenge stays with your guild and running the Raids for those 251, 264 or 271 weapons. If your guild is organised in any serious way, the problem of "need" or "greed" or drama queen hardly exists in these Raids which don't even include the LFG tool.
No 232 weapon is even seriously discussed by the heroics pugs. Just like the flying mount is no longer discussed with the Stratholme heroic run.
I believe you are missing a couple of very important aspect of the thread - namely 'why' and 'how to eliminate it'.
In the real world...people who behave sociopathically, criminally narcissistically, or anti-socially...often get imprisoned and removed from society for the good of the REST of society. Unfortunately....we don't have that system in video games.
Nah, only the really stupid ones.
The more intelligent sociopaths occupy most of our positions of authority.
Unfortunately we can't just shoot them in the head like in video games.
Ergo I'll take video games over reality any day :P
Also, 5-man is so easy that you can run it again and again and eventually get the axe.
There is no way to completely shut out bad behavior in a multiplayer game.
So true ...
This whole discussion is ridiculous. 5 man heroics are for gearing up your alts to do the serious end Raids.
Oh...so they're not meant for new players with a NEW first character level 80, hmm? Wow....I didn't realize that. ROFL They're meant....by the way....for all players, not for just alts. They are for gearing up anyone that has a character that needs gearing up. The guy that took the needed item in the situation being discussed....wasn't "gearing" anything except his gold supply.
Just for those not playing WOW: the weapon that drops in the OP's dungeon metioned is a level ...232 weapon.
Even in doing a simple 10 man Raid ICC (with an on Realm PUG or with a little guild) will give you a 251 weapon.
So there simply is no drama in heroic dungeon runs.
(perhaps one exception for the battered hilt quest drop but that is so much worth everyone would just simply need, even the ones who already had it).
I have to laugh when reading posts about ex-players who simply have no clue why the heroic runs are included : they are to upgrade your characters with badges to acquire around 25% of a gear set for the final Raids.
People who think the heroic (badge) loot is the final step in the game don't understand the new game mechanics at all.
When did ANYONE even imply what you typed in the above paragraph?
Long boring attunement solo play was replaced with an excellent and smooth grouping tool you can do at your own pace.
The actual play and challenge stays with your guild and running the Raids for those 251, 264 or 271 weapons. If your guild is organised in any serious way, the problem of "need" or "greed" or drama queen hardly exists in these Raids which don't even include the LFG tool.
No 232 weapon is even seriously discussed by the heroics pugs. Just like the flying mount is no longer discussed with the Stratholme heroic run. That's why the warrior made no comments .... he at least KNEW the game mechanics.
(MOD EDITED)
Either you didn't read the entire OP or....you simply don't care. It doesn't MATTER that the weapon was an item lvl 232 item. The one guy actually needed it because his gear was crap, and the other guy took it simply to sell it.....which.....is selfish. The guy that actually NEEDED it, after all, also helped to GET it to begin with. But you're right....it's not hard to get. However....still doesn't mean that guy that jacked it isn't an ASS.
I agree there is no way to eliminate douchebags from MMOs or from the WORLD, for that matter, and the game mechanics pretty much cater to soloing (early in game) and then selfishness (later in game) in WoW anyway. Nonetheless....it doesn't make being an ASS perfectly fine.
And what is REALLY awesome about the LFD tool....is that now the guy that rolled "need" who was actually only greedy....won't develop a bad reputation for doing that, even if he does it repeatedly, BECAUSE.....it's only a cross server PuG where your reputation can't easily follow you. Oh yay.
You know, you make a very good point. It's a double-edged sword of sorts. But the only thing is, this also discourages good players from continuing.
That's true.
But there's no getting around the problem of making a system that can accuractely identify need.
As an alternative, some games (eg. CoH) offer random 'loot' to players individually and there's no BoP. Players are free to trade loot amongst themselves. Particularly at lower levels (when buying enhancements was expensive) this used to be common. If players got an enhancement they couldn't slot they'd give or trade it to other team-members.
So transporting that to a WoW kind of setting if they removed the BoP and assigned loot randomly to invidual players then that would fix the problem.
On average (over time) everyone would end up with the same value of loot, relative to their efforts in doing instances etc.. What they can't use themselves they can either exchange with other players for something they can use, sell to other players so they can buy gear, or drop into a guild pool of equipment and then take something else for themselves.
You know, you make a very good point. It's a double-edged sword of sorts. But the only thing is, this also discourages good players from continuing.
That's true.
But there's no getting around the problem of making a system that can accuractely identify need.
As an alternative, some games (eg. CoH) offer random 'loot' to players individually and there's no BoP. Players are free to trade loot amongst themselves. Particularly at lower levels (when buying enhancements was expensive) this used to be common. If players got an enhancement they couldn't slot they'd give or trade it to other team-members.
So transporting that to a WoW kind of setting if they removed the BoP and assigned loot randomly to invidual players then that would fix the problem.
When I left WoW....we were able to exchange things between players for a set amount of time. Unfortunately, for cross server PuGs....that's pretty useless even if it IS that way, after all....why would you be kind to someone you're not likely to ever see again...that's how a lot of people seem to think...at least in PuGs the way they USED to be. I rather doubt that the LFD tool has changed that, particularly since your reputation doesn't follow you now. (I don't know if it works that way in LFD arranged PuGs or not...I refused to PuG my last days away).
I do know that when I left....the BoP thing didn't exist any more during our guild runs and items could be traded among the people that were in the instance at the time of the kill and drop. However...this was months ago now.
On average (over time) everyone would end up with the same value of loot, relative to their efforts in doing instances etc.. What they can't use themselves they can either exchange with other players for something they can use, sell to other players so they can buy gear, or drop into a guild pool of equipment and then take something else for themselves.
Bottom line of this thread is this:
Selfish people won't care, and the people that DO care about team effort and consideration will do what their own sportsmanship tells them to do....OR....they won't play the games that cater to selfish brats. Pretty simple.
You know, you make a very good point. It's a double-edged sword of sorts. But the only thing is, this also discourages good players from continuing.
That's true.
But there's no getting around the problem of making a system that can accuractely identify need.
As an alternative, some games (eg. CoH) offer random 'loot' to players individually and there's no BoP. Players are free to trade loot amongst themselves. Particularly at lower levels (when buying enhancements was expensive) this used to be common. If players got an enhancement they couldn't slot they'd give or trade it to other team-members.
So transporting that to a WoW kind of setting if they removed the BoP and assigned loot randomly to invidual players then that would fix the problem.
When I left WoW....we were able to exchange things between players for a set amount of time. Unfortunately, for cross server PuGs....that's pretty useless even if it IS that way, after all....why would you be kind to someone you're not likely to ever see again...that's how a lot of people seem to think...at least in PuGs the way they USED to be. I rather doubt that the LFD tool has changed that, particularly since your reputation doesn't follow you now. (I don't know if it works that way in LFD arranged PuGs or not...I refused to PuG my last days away).
I do know that when I left....the BoP thing didn't exist any more during our guild runs and items could be traded among the people that were in the instance at the time of the kill and drop. However...this was months ago now.
On average (over time) everyone would end up with the same value of loot, relative to their efforts in doing instances etc.. What they can't use themselves they can either exchange with other players for something they can use, sell to other players so they can buy gear, or drop into a guild pool of equipment and then take something else for themselves.
Bottom line of this thread is this:
Selfish people won't care, and the people that DO care about team effort and consideration will do what their own sportsmanship tells them to do....OR....they won't play the games that cater to selfish brats. Pretty simple.
I can't help but agree with you that a lot of people are just twats but....
Rather than just abandon an MMO that he (and others) seemingly enjoy, he's tossing around ideas on ways to improve it.
The no-BOP thing in WoW seems to have been brought in about a year ago:
Players will now be able to trade soulbound items with other raid or group members that were eligible for the loot. This system will work like the Item Buy Back system and allow 2 hours for players to trade an item after it has been looted. Players who choose to enchant or add gems to the item will get one last confirmation before losing the ability to trade the item.
Sorry - I haven't played for a few years. I didn't know about that change.
But what I was talking about was no BoP at all. With no BoP the game could just automatically randomly assign loot to players and over time it would all even out. It does work well in CoH.
Though now that I think some more about it, in a game this gear-centric it would also exacerbate RMTs. Too much of WoW's game design is based around pouring huge amounts of time in grinding for gear.... unless players also needed a certain rep score to equip certain gear (i.e. they've actually spent time grinding their way through the right instances).
Why not just toss up a voting system. If two people hit need, the remaining people can vote who gets said item, the game mode can only be changed outside of the dungeon and so on, so if everyones cool with it problem solved. If they dont trust or know any people they ask for traditional rolls and leave the party if they dont comply.
sorry if this was already suggested, didnt read the whole five pages.
Comments
It's a lot easier to detect douchebaggery early on if the master looter hoards, of course you never know what happens when that omfg piece of armor or weapon drops. I always demand master looter when PuG'ing to deter ninjas, and never had any problems.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Which is precisely why I do NOT PuG. Adding a tool to PuG in one or more people...doesn't help me at all, because I don't "believe" in PuGing when you have a guild of people you have known for years and are known to be trustworthy. I would rather solo than PuG. I don't have to worry about the jerks that way.
That is your choice. However, MOST people would obviously go to a PUG if their long term trustworthy friends are not on at the time. That is why this tool is SO popular.
And remember .. you don't have to just suffer .. be a jerk and strike back. Sometimes it is even fun. You can also rage-quit in the middle of a fight and hope that the jerk you grouped with willl wipe.
See the problem here though...perfectly outlined by the poster you responded to is...the fact that some people don't have a natural built in moral code of ethics. They feel morals are "forced upon" them. They look at things from the short-sighted standpoint of "what's in it for ME," and don't consider the long term implications of how things affect the ares OUTSIDE of 2 inches from their noses.
Selfish, self-serving people are short-sighted. They are unable (or unwilling) to accept any societal implications of their actions, attitudes and behaviors, and therefore don't consider themselves responsible, even indirectly, for anything that happens outside of their own personal body space.
When you fail to consider the ripple effect of your own actions on the world as a whole, whether in RL or in a game, what happens is that eventually....as we've seen in WoW....the society or community begins to gradually devolve and break down. And eventually....the place will become uninhabitable. For me....WoW reached that point a while back.
In the real world...people who behave sociopathically, criminally narcissistically, or anti-socially...often get imprisoned and removed from society for the good of the REST of society. Unfortunately....we don't have that system in video games.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I tend to look at things from a more long-sighted perspective. I don't see how lowering my behavioral choices to the level of someone else's...ultimately provides any benefit that isn't simply a short term satisfaction. It only compounds the problem. That's not the kind of example I would want to set for anyone. What goes around....comes around. The paladin in the example someone gave....he'll get his. Guaranteed that at some point...someone will yank a piece of gear that HE needs, since he did that to someone else. And it would certainly be justice coming to visit him. I think real life works like that much of the time too. Sadly....we don't usually get to see the offender getting their recompense, but....I believe they do.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Not sure how it could really have worked, but if they figured out a good way to do it, yes sir!
And what a nice warrior, thats not a common reply, all the respect to him.
I believe you are missing a couple of very important aspect of the thread - namely 'why' and 'how to eliminate it'.
Nah, only the really stupid ones.
The more intelligent sociopaths occupy most of our positions of authority.
Unfortunately we can't just shoot them in the head like in video games.
Ergo I'll take video games over reality any day :P
(MOD EDITED)
Either you didn't read the entire OP or....you simply don't care. It doesn't MATTER that the weapon was an item lvl 232 item. The one guy actually needed it because his gear was crap, and the other guy took it simply to sell it.....which.....is selfish. The guy that actually NEEDED it, after all, also helped to GET it to begin with. But you're right....it's not hard to get. However....still doesn't mean that guy that jacked it isn't an ASS.
I agree there is no way to eliminate douchebags from MMOs or from the WORLD, for that matter, and the game mechanics pretty much cater to soloing (early in game) and then selfishness (later in game) in WoW anyway. Nonetheless....it doesn't make being an ASS perfectly fine.
And what is REALLY awesome about the LFD tool....is that now the guy that rolled "need" who was actually only greedy....won't develop a bad reputation for doing that, even if he does it repeatedly, BECAUSE.....it's only a cross server PuG where your reputation can't easily follow you. Oh yay.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
That's true.
But there's no getting around the problem of making a system that can accuractely identify need.
As an alternative, some games (eg. CoH) offer random 'loot' to players individually and there's no BoP. Players are free to trade loot amongst themselves. Particularly at lower levels (when buying enhancements was expensive) this used to be common. If players got an enhancement they couldn't slot they'd give or trade it to other team-members.
So transporting that to a WoW kind of setting if they removed the BoP and assigned loot randomly to invidual players then that would fix the problem.
On average (over time) everyone would end up with the same value of loot, relative to their efforts in doing instances etc.. What they can't use themselves they can either exchange with other players for something they can use, sell to other players so they can buy gear, or drop into a guild pool of equipment and then take something else for themselves.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
the majority of humans are selfish jerks, take a look around the world, that explains why wow is majority selfish, it even happens in guild raids.
Wasn't this in an episode of Friends?
I can't help but agree with you that a lot of people are just twats but....
Rather than just abandon an MMO that he (and others) seemingly enjoy, he's tossing around ideas on ways to improve it.
The no-BOP thing in WoW seems to have been brought in about a year ago:
Players will now be able to trade soulbound items with other raid or group members that were eligible for the loot. This system will work like the Item Buy Back system and allow 2 hours for players to trade an item after it has been looted. Players who choose to enchant or add gems to the item will get one last confirmation before losing the ability to trade the item.
Sorry - I haven't played for a few years. I didn't know about that change.
But what I was talking about was no BoP at all. With no BoP the game could just automatically randomly assign loot to players and over time it would all even out. It does work well in CoH.
Though now that I think some more about it, in a game this gear-centric it would also exacerbate RMTs. Too much of WoW's game design is based around pouring huge amounts of time in grinding for gear.... unless players also needed a certain rep score to equip certain gear (i.e. they've actually spent time grinding their way through the right instances).
kinda messed up.
Why not just toss up a voting system. If two people hit need, the remaining people can vote who gets said item, the game mode can only be changed outside of the dungeon and so on, so if everyones cool with it problem solved. If they dont trust or know any people they ask for traditional rolls and leave the party if they dont comply.
sorry if this was already suggested, didnt read the whole five pages.
One kick in the face is better then two.