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How does the game actually work?
Gylfi
Member UncommonPosts: 708
I think by now BW themselves know it. We hear about classes, about combat, about planets, about graphics... it's just a lot of names, names, names.
Players make constant choices, pick a side and fight either one faction or the other, and for that they get different quests, different equipment, different bonuses/malus, even a different alignment, all the while relating to their NPC companions.
But these are not real consequences. Equipment and quests and companions are superficial changes. Instead, first of all, how does the PLOT change? Then how does your own virtual "life" change according to the plot and finally how do these two relate to other players and the community?
This is what we don't know and it's the fulcrum of the game. It's the whole point of making choices, a player goes through a series of decisions but what is the purpose what is the REASON for taking one instead of the other? Take Mass Effect 2, if you don't do the right decisions you die in the ending scene(and just by and by it should be "difficult" to make the right decisions, they can't be either too obvious or too obscure, there's balancing even in the choices system). So what i believe is that lacking a "finale" in a MMO consequences should affect the way you interact with other players: they should generate PvP content, not only after you're done with the story, but also in the course of it. Drama and virtuality should be fused together in some way.
This is what we don't know and it's the fulcrum of the game. It's the whole point of making choices, a player goes through a series of decisions but what is the purpose what is the REASON for taking one instead of the other? Take Mass Effect 2, if you don't do the right decisions you die in the ending scene(and just by and by it should be "difficult" to make the right decisions, they can't be either too obvious or too obscure, there's balancing even in the choices system). So what i believe is that lacking a "finale" in a MMO consequences should affect the way you interact with other players: they should generate PvP content, not only after you're done with the story, but also in the course of it. Drama and virtuality should be fused together in some way.
This is what we don't know and it's the fulcrum of the game. It's the whole point of making choices, a player goes through a series of decisions but what is the purpose what is the REASON for taking one instead of the other? Take Mass Effect 2, if you don't do the right decisions you die in the ending scene(and just by and by it should be "difficult" to make the right decisions, they can't be either too obvious or too obscure, there's balancing even in the choices system). So what i believe is that lacking a "finale" in a MMO consequences should affect the way you interact with other players: they should generate PvP content, not only after you're done with the story, but also in the course of it. Drama and virtuality should be fused together in some way.
This is what we don't know and it's the fulcrum of the game. It's the whole point of making choices, a player goes through a series of decisions but what is the purpose what is the REASON for taking one instead of the other? Take Mass Effect 2, if you don't do the right decisions you die in the ending scene(and just by and by it should be "difficult" to make the right decisions, they can't be either too obvious or too obscure, there's balancing even in the choices system). So what i believe is that lacking a "finale" in a MMO consequences should affect the way you interact with other players: they should generate PvP content, not only after you're done with the story, but also in the course of it. Drama and virtuality should be fused together in some way.
This is what we don't know and it's the fulcrum of the game. It's the whole point of making choices, a player goes through a series of decisions but what is the purpose what is the REASON for taking one instead of the other? Take Mass Effect 2, if you don't do the right decisions you die in the ending scene(and just by and by it should be "difficult" to make the right decisions, they can't be either too obvious or too obscure, there's balancing even in the choices system). So what i believe is that lacking a "finale" in a MMO consequences should affect the way you interact with other players: they should generate PvP content, not only after you're done with the story, but also in the course of it. Drama and virtuality should be fused together in some way.
This is what we don't know and it's the fulcrum of the game. It's the whole point of making choices, a player goes through a series of decisions but what is the purpose what is the REASON for taking one instead of the other? Take Mass Effect 2, if you don't do the right decisions you die in the ending scene(and just by and by it should be "difficult" to make the right decisions, they can't be either too obvious or too obscure, there's balancing even in the choices system). So what i believe is that lacking a "finale" in a MMO consequences should affect the way you interact with other players: they should generate PvP content, not only after you're done with the story, but also in the course of it. Drama and virtuality should be fused together in some way.
This is what we don't know and it's the fulcrum of the game. It's the whole point of making choices, a player goes through a series of decisions but what is the purpose what is the reason for taking one instead of the other? Take Mass Effect 2, if you don't do the right decisions you die in the ending scene(and just by and by it should be "difficult" to make the right decisions, they can't be either too obvious or too obscure, there's balancing even in the choices system). So what i believe is that lacking a "finale" in a MMO consequences should affect the way you interact with other players: they should generate PvP content, not only after you're done with the story, but also in the course of it. Drama and virtuality should be fused together in some way.
So i repeat, what are the actual mechanics of this game?
But what are the REAL consequences? First how does the PLOT change? Then how does your own "life" change according to the plot and finally how do these two relate to other players and the community?
This is what we don't know and it's the fulcrum of the game. It's the whole point of making choices, a player goes through a series of decisions but what is the purpose what is the REASON for taking one instead of the other? Take Mass Effect 2, if you don't do the right decisions you die in the ending scene(and just by and by it should be "difficult" to make the right decisions, they can't be either too obvious or too obscure, there's balancing even in the choices system). So what i believe is that lacking a "finale" in a MMO consequences should affect the way you interact with other players: they should generate PvP content, not only after you're done with the story, but also in the course of it. Drama and virtuality should be fused together in some way.
Comments
Those are all very valid questions and have to do with the core theoretical basics of a game, but frankly I've seldom seen developers go into depth on those... And the ones that did - I've seldom seen them turn out to be accurate.
The "world" experience, the experience of playing an ever developing character and being a part of a (hopefully) dynamic world is what I'd call an exclusively play-and-see situation.
When they have been so vague and elusive about crafting, space combat, and PvP, I'd say that is a reason for concern if those aspects interest you.
There is either nothing there yet (and it's getting late), or they are not pleased with what they have.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
There is no way of knowing at this point to what extent we will see world changes etcetera in the game, or how the system comes together, and I doubt we will get any information regarding this until a few months before launch.
I could only expect as far as the plot changes go that it will be similar to other BioWare games in that your choices will affect your personal story and the parts of the story you get to see later on. I think it will actually give you more options as far as seeing the consequences of your actions as it will be specifically scripted to do so, with plenty of different outcomes.
Then again, this is mostly speculation, and only time will reveal the answers to your questions.
We're still at least 8 months away before 2011 and we have no specific date when they plan to release in 2011.. it could be January, it could be April... 8 months is more than enough time, so I'd have to disagree with "its getting late"
I don't think you should be afraid that your character would permanently die in the ending, there will be no permadeath in this game.
As for the rest, your 'life' in an mmo is seperate from the narrative going on, it isn't something the devs can control, they can't determine which people you will meet and how you will interact with them.
The storyline will be very much like quests I imagine, but far more intricate; on the same level as Mass Effect and Kotor, quests never influence how you interact with others, they're just there to form an enjoyable element of the gameplay and you will probably progress your character through getting further in the storyline.
One of their goals with putting this much emphasis on the story, also seems to be immersing people in the world, other than a shallow world where people have to fill in everything that is going on (and most don't really display much interest there), you'll have a rich world that is really close to people.
As for multiple players in a storyline, other players can join you in your questline, however they can influence it only up to a certain level, they can't determine the big outcome (though they might get bonuses and alignment points for being there).
In other quests, players can compete for a certain outcome, but it will be the intentions that cause alignment shifts, not the eventual winner's outcome.
It's still a bit unclear how this last one is going to happen exactly, however we know there is group content besides the solo content as well and grouped up players can take down encounters that would otherwise be soloable only at a higher level.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Haha that's clearly not what i meant. And i clarify it by saying, after, "since an MMO lacks a finale". It was just an example to stress the importance of SOLID consequences in a game with choices.
It's separate but it can be connected as a cause is connected to an effect. What's wrong with me i keep quoting the matrix but it fits so well.
No im sorry that's not true. The quests in those games you cited are paramount because you must make choices, and choices will determine what you do after and the ending scene you get(i repeat, not referring to a MMO, MMO's dont have finales). And in each of those games people see you differently according to what you did. They're not just "an excuse" to give you XP and new gear. They're not drugs, you're supposed to interact with these choices to get the desired(and hoped for) outcome. And they SHOULD affect how you interact with other people as well as NPC's. Infact what you described, "they simple accompany you thru the levels in a pleasant(almost mind-numbing like morphine) way" is WoW and their drug-selling. And WoW sells because it's the old trick, that is, like selling LOTS of candy-bars with a little aid from our friend LSD.
If there's no consequences to the choices, you dont need to mind about them. And if you don't have to mind about them, you will skip them as you did in all the other MMO's.
Finally, some information.
I rememebr opening a topic in the official boards making an example of how the story+choices=PvP structure might work... and people of those boards cried "omg noway im not gonna play the game if it's like this".... as it always happens.
And now you talk about it and it's pretty much what i had imagined.
As you can see quests and choices do affect how you interact with other players, you said it yourself, you "compete" with a person who doesn't want the outcome you want. That's a pretty good concept, imo.
It's not nearly enuff, ofc. So you just go thru a quest and suddenly your companion doesn't cope with the path you're walking, so he attacks you. That's good but a bit simplistic, there must be some twist to it.
Also there should be a consequence that concerns the whole world.
To put it in a bland way, when you help a faction the other faction hates you, and along with it comes the hatred of all players that instead love that faction. What does this generate? That you SHOULD do things that are related to your class and your alignment. A career coherent with the people you're in war with. I.E An evil smuggler will do stuff like stealing supplies from an outpost
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Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
The central problem with changing the world because of your character's choices is the very issue that most terrifies me about this game. Im scared it wont live up to expectations because as they state they want everyone to be a hero. They want everyoone to feel important. But you can only have so many "The Chosen One"s when you get right down to it. You cant have every single person thrust into a situation where they either do something right or... a giant laser blows up a planet. It just doesn't really work in the long run. Especially if the planet is still there to be blown up for other people. Its balancing persistence in an in-game world with a working model that multiple people can play inside that is hard for a lot of people.
But to go to a different game, even thoguh I never played it, I respected what the Matrix Online did near the end of the game. In the game groups of people actually did affect the game. Situations and alliances and all that would change over time through content patches because of what large enough groups of players did. I believe before the game closed they actually let people track down and if they didn't protect him properly Morpheus died. He didn't respawn, or come back, he died. If done right, and if it required enough effort on the part of groups of players [not individuals] then something like that could be an interesting way of doing things. Of course I have no information to support that Bioware is even remotely considering doing anything like that. Im just saying its a model I would kind of like to see tried again.
Are you for real. The last thing this site needs is yet another Drama Queen.
Sit back and relax and guess what when the game releases you can buy it and play it and have some fun. Thats what I will be doing over analysing before the event will lead to dissapointment/ Carebear tendencies or even an ulcer.
The price for the game will be worth it just to see the environments that Bioware have crafted thats even before the gameplay kicks in.... Win Win now thats positive.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Snap the more i read the post here it just seems like a Troll atempt the OP is just demanding a little more than he deserves. I would like a printed copy of their design .... Somehow not sure they will oblige , I just wish for once someone would release a game without the sense of enjoyment and discovery being destroyed. Lets hope they limit what is said and leave the good stuff for go live.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I have no interest in this game, mostly because it looks like more of the same old crap we have been getting for 10 years now. However, I am mildly curious as to how the game world is structured. It looks suspiciously like Guild Wars to me, with everything being instanced. If that's the case, then I most definitely won't be playing it. Anyone have any information on this?
Based on what I heard and observed so far, TOR is basically a single player RPG with some MMO features thrown in to make people pay for a monthly subscription. The story revolves around your character like in a structured RPG. The decisions you make will effect your character and your very own personal storyline just like in a structured RPG..
The only difference is, you have the option of grouping with other people when your very own storyline can't be done alone.
Basically, this game is not a traditional sandbox MMORPG like EQ, DAOC, or WoW where the player has the freedom and ability to set his or her own mark in the world.. In those games you level up, learn a bunch of new skills, group with 5 other people to defeat the mid range dungeon content.. Then when you reach max level your character has the ability to combine it's abilities and power with other people to tackle on the end game raid content If you choose to do so...
TOR will be a game that you can pretty much solo or duo through like in a platform structured RPG.. This is what bothers me about the game.. I feel it will play like a rollercoaster ride and the hardcore gamers will defeat the content within a few weeks simply because it's not a massive MMORPG that gives the player the freedom of doing and becoming whatever they choose like other traditional sandbox MMORPG's.. I'd rather make up my own storyline in a MMORPG rather than blindly following a storyline already created for my character... That's not a mmorpg and no one should have to pay to play a structured RPG, lol.
God I hope I'm wrong... But base don what I've read and saw already, this is exactly what it sounds like to me.
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
Then you would have observed wrong, any person still claiming that this game will be an instancefest or a singleplayer RPG has clearly not been following the information put out in the last months.
Or else, to be consistent, you would have to suspect nearly all prospective mmo's to be instance fests as well, based on a lack of information on the matter.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
I hope my observation and analysis on the game mechanics and features are 100% WRONG.. I hope it becomes the greatest SCI Fi MMORPG ever created.. I'm a huge Star Wars fan and wish the game can become what SWG failed to be,,,, which is a truly legendary MMORPG...
But based on the Dev videos I saw, what I explained above is piinpoint accurate from the horses mouth, so to speak... Unless they change those features, the game will be exactly what I stated above.. Go and watch some of the Dev videos on youtube because alot of information I received came from the Dev's themselves...
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
Aha, and the devs say it is going to be a single player game?
No, the things they say are the same things all devs say about their games: combat will be cool, it will be huge, etc etc and ofc as it is BioWare, story story story.
And then there are the interviews where they specifically state that their worlds will be open, that there will be raids and pvp, etc etc; all the classic mmo stuff.
The open world part being confirmed by people who played the game at GDC 2010, and again stressed in a blog by a developer.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
I think the biggest misconception comes from people who just can't visualize how the system will actually work. You have to view all the videos to piece together everything at this point as bioware is releasing information in pieces. If you miss out on a few videos and developer commentaries you could miss something vital that may give you a better understanding of the system.
The "single player" portion that you speak about, you may as well just liken it to questing in any other MMO, because that, in its essence, is exactly what it is. You can run through the open world, you can rely on only group quests if you want to, but that kill 10 rats quest you did in EQ2? When you pick up that quest, it will be in your own personal flashpoint, equipped with your own dialog. No longer will you see 30 people talking to the quest giver about the same quest. You'll see them once the flashpoint is over and you've chosen your path.
The content in TOR is purportedly THE most content we've seen in an MMORPG to date. That includes 8 unique storylines that could be played JUST for the story if you wanted to. Liken that to how COH did their origin missions. You pick an origin and you follow down that path, with forks at specific intervals. Noone questions that COH was an MMO eventhough you had your "single player" missions in your own personal "storyline". The major difference being that it was low production and they had little polish and no voice acting. TOR even boasts much much larger worlds and a relatively low amount of instanced content which would trump those that believe the game will be primarily instanced like COH was.
You have an underlying storyline to root you to the gameplay and help progress your character. Most western MMOs go for the quest>grind model, and this is no different. Most western MMOs give you a solo option as well as a group option. This will not be different. You blindly follow storylines in every MMORPG, just they are unimportant, and are just random questing hubs. Thats why no games seem epic.. because noone bothers to care about what quests they're actually doing. Thats why the BioWare story aspect is being pushed, so that people may take notice that mindless questing that most MMORPGs have is fine, but it can be brought to a new level that can be enjoyable as the other BioWare games are.
I hope this is true because I just got a smile from ear to ear after reading this piece of information...
I must admit, I didn't watch EVERY video on TOR.. The ones I watched gave us a small sample of 4 classes and showed the player what the beginning of the game looked like, as well as giving us a taste of the quest system.. This is where they explained how the story will be like no other mmorpg out now,,, it will be massive and your character will feel as If the galaxies fate will rest in your hand and yours alone... That sounds awesome, but I want the freedom to explore and do what I want to do. I don't want to be subjugated and confined to follow a strict questline like in structured rpg's...
If there is a full sandbox open world where I can travel from planet to planet, find adventure and have the option of exploring the planets of star wars in all it's glory, then I will definitely get the game..
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
Hamsters in exercise wheels. How does anything else work?
Very good post.. I appreciate the information you fed me.. I watched a few dev vids that kinda bummed me out.. After listening to the devs speak about the quest system, I assumed the game was set up exactly like a structured platform RPG with some MMORPG elements thrown in to gain monthly subscriptions.. Based on this information, now I find out everyone will have their own epic storyline, but it's not all TOR has to offer.... I didn't know you had the ability to explore and progress through the game how you see fit.. I figured you had to follow a strict questline with no freedom of roleplaying your own character.. I'm happy to find out I was wrong..
Do you know If it will be possible to build and purchase vehicles/ships?
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
Vehicles are confirmed to be in game though we do not know if they will be able to be player controlled at this time. Player owned ships have not been confirmed either. I would like nothing more than a build your own ship like SWG had, but I think that will be too much to ask for. One of the developer blogs mentioned something along the lines of straying from two completely different playstyles like the space combat SWG had as they said it caused some problems. Whether that will translate to the creation of ships as well is yet to be seen.
Of course we know that we will need to get to other worlds to accomplish objectives or just explore overall. Whether this will be done via a shuttle system, or whether you'll have a designated ship for your character like in the original KOTOR games we also do not know.
We will know this before a few months of release. People are forggetting one major facter that even BioWare can't stop,yes that's BETA LEAKS.
If think that because it's BioWare there wont be leaks then they are fooliing themselves, it will be the leaker that gives us the vital information about this game, BioWare can't stop leaks, no dev team can.
If this game is not what BioWare are claiming and the world isn't as open as BioWare are making out or the combat really does suck as much as it seeems in the vids, they will be exposed. Many people will not like the hard truth but they would do well to remember AOC when leakers were shouting loud and clear about the game yet none believed them until it was to late.
Beta Leakers, good or bad are our friends,they are part of the paying public .
The clock is ticking so i really hope all this lack of updates and "we want to make sure" is worth it.
Furious Fighters
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm
They could be mean and close test it until the absolute last possible day. Which I'd prefer, that way, we'd see what they want us to see, and when your telling a story, thats important.
Longing for Skyrim, The Old Republic and Mass Effect 3
BioWare *could* very well keep testing to a very closed population, but currently that isn't how they're displaying their intentions by opening the beta applications to everyone. BioWare has created plenty of games with nary an open beta, and they have enough money to test all this on a payroll basis if they wanted to, to that I have no doubt.
I don't think BioWare forgot that Beta Leaks are absolutely possible. I also don't think they will have anything to hide once beta starts. I think some people are hoping the game will not be polished and they'll see a chink in BioWares armor. I'll assist in that, the game will not launch bug free. We will not, however, see any glaring potholes in what BioWare has confirmed will be in the game, and what players will honestly see. This, I know, because we already have "beta leaks" in the form of current playtesters that both video and write about their experiences.
People will see what they want to see, or, not see what they refuse to see, unfortunately. I've read through most of these supposition threads on what people assume BioWare will do or not do. Nowhere have I said that this game will be perfect, but just because it doesn't follow everyones idea of what star wars should be, it won't make it any less of a good game.
And this is where i come with my topic.
You say that TOR's difference is that players WILL mind about the story. But how can you tell?
The whole point of what i say is that unless people are "forced" to consider, to think, to INTERACT with the story they're seeing, they WILL skip all the text, WILL simply care about reaching level-cap, WILL simply keep their eye on their next piece of equipment they get as reward... just as they did in ALL the themepark clones we've seen in the last 5 years.
Now, if you say instead that with TOR players will care about the story, well then i assume story and plot are important, and how is plot important? Through choices. And how are choices important? Because they affect the character's life
"if the player doesn't pay attention to them, they will change his life in a way he doesn't enjoy"
So my question was and is, HOW? How(AND IF) do choices affect the character's life, that is, FIRST the PLOT of the story, and MORE IMPORTANT THAN THAT(more important because choices changing a character's plot is what we have in many single player games, say, Planescape torment), i repeat MORE IMPORTANT than shaping the character's plot, how do THOSE choices affect your gameplay with other people?
Am i getting thru to you guys at all?
Oh and i should add something else... i beg you all to stop talking about the RIDICULOUS matter of a character as a hero, chosen oneS, epic, and "changing the world". It's all nonsense! I don't need to make the world change to really CARE about the story. It's the community that HAS to see me differently based on what i did, i don't care about seeing the world change one minute after i did something, it doesn't make any sense.
I guess everyone needs an example. I'll put it simply.
We were shown this SITH talking to a captain of a ship and then deciding to kill him because he dared to question orders. Now let's say the player is hated by those players who instead respect the army independance, and also by the NPC generals.
What are the consequences of this decision? What GAMEPLAY does the choice GENERATE? Well now the player has new "social activities" to do, one is to find new "ways of persuasion" to correct discipline of all officers, go around military schools to talk instructors into being more strict... then close down some academies, allow less ships to be built(to have less captains). The PvP content generated by this choice is that your adversaries(say, SITH with ideals?) don't want you to do all this so they guard those key places, they intend to control them.
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I don't want just a good game. That would be enough if it wasn't going to have "Star Wars" on the box. It has to be a good Star Wars game.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2