That's not a realistic way to view this tbh. We all looked at how much the subscription was and asked ourselves whether or not we would be happy paying that before our free trial ran out (I hope). This formed a large basis of whether or not we would be happy to subscribe (does my enjoyment of the game justify the cash they're asking). And, if you paid subs for a game, then you must have answered yes.
And they decided how much their subscription fee would be before they released the game.
That's saying an arguement isn't valid because you have no counter arguement. Running an MMO costs more money than just developing it and throwing it on the shelves. You can't ignore that. Ongoing costs need to be offset, and that is done through subs.
Which they determined prior to even releasing the game.
It's obvious, there is no trick, you can see exactly what they are trying to acheive. I say again, they are offsetting increasing costs without penalising everyone.
We don't know if their costs are increasing or not, and it's irrelevant in any case. Blizzard obviously doesn't care about our finances, and we shouldn't care about theirs.
I might not have a shiny new mount, but I am not paying an increasing sub. Good deal.
If there was no cash shop, that mount would be in the game to be played for, instead of paid for. Bad deal. For the players, I mean.
Prices rise. The cost of a mars bar has risen, the cost of a packet of crisps has risen, the cost of powering a house (or a PC, or a server) has risen. However, prices of subs have stayed just about the same.
Inflation (why these prices are rising) is a fact of life. There's nothing you can do about that. It affects the price of power, water, maintenance, wages, the whole damn lot. Therefore Blizzard's costs rise. In order to maintain their profit (they're a business, not a charity) they have introduced a cash shop. Why is this such a shock? Raising subs is a dangerous game. How do we know that every rise is due to rising costs? If they just want our money, as you seem to think, surely they would raise subs every few months? Be careful what you wish for, fella.....
And it is utterly not true to think we would have this stuff if a cash shop didn't exist. Did you get the Collector's edition pets without paying for them? The BlizzCon pets without paying to go to BlizzCon? No, you had to pay. This stuff has been happening all the time. Now that it is obvious, everyone gets on their moral high horse.
Instead, stop expecting profitable companies to act like charities!
Prices rise. The cost of a mars bar has risen, the cost of a packet of crisps has risen, the cost of powering a house (or a PC, or a server) has risen. However, prices of subs have stayed just about the same.
The price of computer memory has dropped - a LOT.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Dude. SO DON'T FUCKING PAY. If you're so sure you're being ripped off, take up shuffleboard.
You've MADE your point. We just don't agree with you. If Safeway tries selling oranges for $4 apiece, I don't go to the store to try to convince everyone to shop at Kragen's Auto Parts to try to convice Safeway to give them to me for free. If I buy those oranges, it isn't Safeway's fault.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
Keep the language pg-rated. By using curse words towards people on an anonymous web forum you're showing signs of your maturity.
On another note...
Since some people believe the current state of MMO's is a natural progression of a capitalist society I made them a picture that will explain exactly what that means and what they are doing to perpetuate the ongoing disease of the genre we love.
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized" "The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
Is this another complaint about Blizz selling vanity items?
EQ2 has a monthly sub and they've had a cash shop for years now.
I don't pursue vanity items so I don't care.
if its purely vanity items i guess there's nothing to be essentially worried about. kinda like respraying your car or changing the bodykit. it would bring up more concerns if the cash shop sells items/enhances that directly affect how the car performs, ie: changing the horse power of the car. Forgive the car analogy:P
i'm sure most of us wouldnt bother paying real cash for just vanity items.
So are you against buying smaller content batches? Like big patches? Or expansion packs? Or both?
What are "expansion packs" in a subscription based MMO besides a bundle of game enhancements and game content that has been developed over time as people pay their initial game cost and their monthly subscription? Instead of making the game better they are working on more ways to take your money!!! You shouldn't have to pay a subscription cost and pay a fee every month thereafter for mainly bug fixes that should have been fixed before the game was even released. The sheep keep paying for content that has already been paid for, and "updates" that make the game what the game should have been in the first place.
For a free to play subscription model I take the other side. In that case you have not paid for the content yet and are not paying a monthly subscription fee. It is totally reasonable in that case to charge a fee for added content as long as it's a "side dish" or enhancement of some kind that is worth the cost as up to the player.
Either way the costs of these subscription models should be about even when all filtered out. The business of subs + item shops is to provide a confusing, fuzzy mess of charges that will draw more cash out of your pockets over time. When people go to the store and read the boxes, they wouldn't buy an MMO that costs $25 bux a month when the average is $15 a month and they can buy a whole new game and experience for $50. They had to come up with a way to get it in under the radar and hit you when you were addicted and advertising was high by other players with the "additional content". It's a slick psychological maneuver no question about it. It's not for the players benefit or as a "service" to their customers.
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized" "The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
So are you against buying smaller content batches? Like big patches? Or expansion packs? Or both?
What are "expansion packs" in a subscription based MMO besides a bundle of game enhancements and game content that has been developed over time as people pay their initial game cost and their monthly subscription? Instead of making the game better they are working on more ways to take your money!!! You shouldn't have to pay a subscription cost and pay a fee every month thereafter for mainly bug fixes that should have been fixed before the game was even released. The sheep keep paying for content that has already been paid for, and "updates" that make the game what the game should have been in the first place.
For a free to play subscription model I take the other side. In that case you have not paid for the content yet and are not paying a monthly subscription fee. It is totally reasonable in that case to charge a fee for added content as long as it's a "side dish" or enhancement of some kind that is worth the cost as up to the player.
Either way the costs of these subscription models should be about even when all filtered out. The business of subs + item shops is to provide a confusing, fuzzy mess of charges that will draw more cash out of your pockets over time. When people go to the store and read the boxes, they wouldn't buy an MMO that costs $25 bux a month when the average is $15 a month and they can buy a whole new game and experience for $50. They had to come up with a way to get it in under the radar and hit you when you were addicted and advertising was high by other players with the "additional content". It's a slick psychological maneuver no question about it. It's not for the players benefit or as a "service" to their customers.
You're right, they shouldn't have to pay additional fees after their monthly fees and initial game purchase, and they don't. I've played all my subscription games without spending a dime outside of the subscription and expansion packs. Sounds like you're talking about small patches, in which case, give me a game that makes you pay for patching?
Now if you're asking that a game release with all the expansions attached and ready to go, and they should give you it for the price of a regular MMO... you're nuts. It'd take forever to make the game, cost a ton of money, and most MMOs would sink with only one, maybe two, actually staying afloat. And what happened when people did all the content? They'd leave, thus the MMO would shut down due to lack of subs and halt anyone from playing the game.
Expansion packs likely keep UO going so that people in the new generation can play it...
Yes, until they start designing game content around these items, or giving you no alternative to get the vanity items other than via the cash shop. I'd rather quest for a fancy shirt than pay extra for it.
Expansions are justified cause they took a lot of hard work and code.
A shirt on a vendor did not take enough work to justify 10$.
That's the huge difference.
When P2P MMOs start building their game design and balance around the item shop items, and HOLDING BACK fun and neat stuff, unless you pay extra for them, purely for money grab, then its a horrible horrible problem, and its already begun. $1
A shirt on a vendor did not take enough work to justify 10$.
That's the huge difference.
When P2P MMOs start building their game design and balance around the item shop items, and HOLDING BACK fun and neat stuff, unless you pay extra for them, purely for money grab, then its a horrible horrible problem, and its already begun. $1
WHat justifies the $10 is someones' willingness to pay $10. If that's not you, you are not harmed by this.
They do not OWE you anything other than what was agreed upon at the time of sale. And you did agree (leaving aside debate over the validity of click-through licenses).
A pizza from Round Table costs about $3.00 to make. despite advertising about the quality of ingredients, the corp offices struggle very hard to keep the cost under $3. Interestingly, small, medium, large etc all cost about the same to make -- because the electricity that runs the oven is the major portion of the cost.
But do you cry abgout OMG they make me pay EXTRA for PEPPERONI? Pepperoni should be INCLUDED. Yes I read where it said "CHeese Pizza" when I clicked "OK" but dammit that pepperoni doesn't cost them an extra $2 to put on so they shouldn't charge me $2 for it.
That's economics, man. If you have issues with it, I got some bad news for you about how the world works.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
Keep the language pg-rated. By using curse words towards people on an anonymous web forum you're showing signs of your maturity.
You can think what you like about my maturity. And use your mod edit powers or if (as I suspect) you don't have any then stop playing language police.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
A shirt on a vendor did not take enough work to justify 10$.
That's the huge difference.
When P2P MMOs start building their game design and balance around the item shop items, and HOLDING BACK fun and neat stuff, unless you pay extra for them, purely for money grab, then its a horrible horrible problem, and its already begun. $1
WHat justifies the $10 is someones' willingness to pay $10. If that's not you, you are not harmed by this.
They do not OWE you anything other than what was agreed upon at the time of sale. And you did agree (leaving aside debate over the validity of click-through licenses).
A pizza from Round Table costs about $3.00 to make. despite advertising about the quality of ingredients, the corp offices struggle very hard to keep the cost under $3. Interestingly, small, medium, large etc all cost about the same to make -- because the electricity that runs the oven is the major portion of the cost.
But do you cry abgout OMG they make me pay EXTRA for PEPPERONI? Pepperoni should be INCLUDED. Yes I read where it said "CHeese Pizza" when I clicked "OK" but dammit that pepperoni doesn't cost them an extra $2 to put on so they shouldn't charge me $2 for it.
That's economics, man. If you have issues with it, I got some bad news for you about how the world works.
I think some people who read these threads are half blind.
If we are comparing MMO's to pizza it would be closer to say:
a) paid for pizza (FINE) compared to the initial cost of an MMO
b) Paid extra for sausage (FINE)
c) pay monthly for sausage (wait WHAT??) compared to paying the subscription fee that is supposed to be paying for added content and fixes. They only have to make it once for 100k+people!!!<-----
What we are talking about here is paying twice for the same thing. Just because these companies are slipping in new rules under your noses diesn't make it any less ridiculous. BAAAAAAAAAAAAA
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized" "The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
No, I get it. The argument is that you're claiming to be charged for something you should get for free -- that the $25 horse would have been achievable, or that the monthly fee entitles you to 100% of the content developed for the game.
That there's somethign unethical about cash shops in general or about the sub + cash shop model.
But you're not thusly entitled. And in most cases, the exact terms of your entitlement were spelled out for you.
If a breach of contrac has occurred, you have the opportunity to stop paying in order to prevent economic harm.
I'm sorry. You don't like it. You can not like it all you want. But the *only* claim you had that there was something unethical going on evaporated the minute you clicked "I Agree", or paid the next installment of your subscription.
You'll say that this kind of thread is supposed tobe a "call to arms", to get the masses to stop supporting this evil business model. Good luck with that. See, when *I* agreed, I knew what I was getting. I'm not offended by the cash shop + sub model. I do not feel entitled to every single shiney the game offers. So I'm not going to stop.
And we MMORPG.COMers are a razor thin minority. The fact that this kind of cash grab is successful is all the proof you need. You're like the tea party types who think that one poorly spelled protest sign is going to spark a rebellion... Good luck with that.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
A shirt on a vendor did not take enough work to justify 10$.
That's the huge difference.
When P2P MMOs start building their game design and balance around the item shop items, and HOLDING BACK fun and neat stuff, unless you pay extra for them, purely for money grab, then its a horrible horrible problem, and its already begun. $1
WHat justifies the $10 is someones' willingness to pay $10. If that's not you, you are not harmed by this.
They do not OWE you anything other than what was agreed upon at the time of sale. And you did agree (leaving aside debate over the validity of click-through licenses).
A pizza from Round Table costs about $3.00 to make. despite advertising about the quality of ingredients, the corp offices struggle very hard to keep the cost under $3. Interestingly, small, medium, large etc all cost about the same to make -- because the electricity that runs the oven is the major portion of the cost.
But do you cry abgout OMG they make me pay EXTRA for PEPPERONI? Pepperoni should be INCLUDED. Yes I read where it said "CHeese Pizza" when I clicked "OK" but dammit that pepperoni doesn't cost them an extra $2 to put on so they shouldn't charge me $2 for it.
That's economics, man. If you have issues with it, I got some bad news for you about how the world works.
I don't know about you - but I never ask for crust, sauce, and cheese when I order a pizza. If my regular place started calling sauce an 'item' I'd be looking for a new pizza place.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
No, I get it. The argument is that you're claiming to be charged for something you should get for free -- that the $25 horse would have been achievable, or that the monthly fee entitles you to 100% of the content developed for the game.
That there's somethign unethical about cash shops in general or about the sub + cash shop model.
But you're not thusly entitled. And in most cases, the exact terms of your entitlement were spelled out for you.
If a breach of contrac has occurred, you have the opportunity to stop paying in order to prevent economic harm.
I'm sorry. You don't like it. You can not like it all you want. But the *only* claim you had that there was something unethical going on evaporated the minute you clicked "I Agree", or paid the next installment of your subscription.
You'll say that this kind of thread is supposed tobe a "call to arms", to get the masses to stop supporting this evil business model. Good luck with that. See, when *I* agreed, I knew what I was getting. I'm not offended by the cash shop + sub model. I do not feel entitled to every single shiney the game offers. So I'm not going to stop.
And we MMORPG.COMers are a razor thin minority. The fact that this kind of cash grab is successful is all the proof you need. You're like the tea party types who think that one poorly spelled protest sign is going to spark a rebellion... Good luck with that.
Well you are partially correct.
The only vote we get is with our dollars. So as the guy said a few replies ago, the debate is worth having simply because it only benefits the developers not to.
Like anyone I pay for a service I expect them to work hard for my money. I don't want to give slouches hundreds of dollars a year for a service I don't think is worth it. If you have been reading threads over the last couple years you can see huge vast numbers of MMO players that are simply fed up with how the genre has been managed but are simply left without options.
I'm voicing the only option for these people and myself which is to force these companies over time to change their policies. They don't want you to stop paying the subscription fees. They don't want to add items to the game monthly when they can throw them onto a shop and get paid TWICE for it. Once from the subs, and once from the price in the shop. That is exactly what's happening.
I don't care if people keep paying subscriptions and keep spending money in shops. It just shows how willing people are to give their money to a company for essentially hitting Cntl+V.
I do care that it is obviously destroying the genre. There are no more immersive expanding worlds if this is allowed to continue.
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized" "The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
I don't know about you - but I never ask for crust, sauce, and cheese when I order a pizza. If my regular place started calling sauce an 'item' I'd be looking for a new pizza place.
That's a bad analogy. Item shop would be more akin to providing another option for your pizza like charging an extra 50 cents for four cheese rather than regular cheese on your pizza. It's not like the companies are taking the fluff that exists within the game and started charging real money for it. No, they merely provided another option in terms of vanity and fluff for a monetary value.
If analogies are going to be used, they should represent the whole picture and not just be bent to try and fit just your side of the argument. It's like forcing a piece into a puzzle that could almost fit, but not quite and deep down you know its not the right piece (those with experience from putting together puzzles should understand this).
That's a bad analogy. Item shop would be more akin to providing another option for your pizza like charging an extra 50 cents for four cheese rather than regular cheese on your pizza. It's not like the companies are taking the fluff that exists within the game and started charging real money for it. No, they merely provided another option in terms of vanity and fluff for a monetary value.
I do not agree with your claim that the companies are not removing content that used to go into patches to put in the cash.
Thus, the analogy is apt. The pizza place is removing sauce from the standard pizza ingredients, and charging extra for it.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Originally posted by MMO_Doubter Originally posted by Jairoe03 That's a bad analogy. Item shop would be more akin to providing another option for your pizza like charging an extra 50 cents for four cheese rather than regular cheese on your pizza. It's not like the companies are taking the fluff that exists within the game and started charging real money for it. No, they merely provided another option in terms of vanity and fluff for a monetary value.
I do not agree with your claim that the companies are not removing content that used to go into patches to put in the cash. Thus, the analogy is apt. The pizza place is removing sauce from the standard pizza ingredients, and charging extra for it.
I know I have said this before, but who's to say they would have even included particular items in a patch. They could just as easily throw it on the next expansion and make you pay for it that way. Again, senseless assumptions does not make sound arguments.
They aer not taking a key component (the sauce) out of the game and then turning around and charging for it. Again, if you read my post in a previous page, you're practicing extremism. Many arguments/analogies you have made is stretching definitions, words and analogies to try and make something like RMT worse than it is. RMT isn't good, but the bad is overexaggerated. It's starting to sound more and more like propaganda and conspiracy theories and less like an actual reasons to dislike actions taken by particular companies.
Let's stick to the plain old facts and throw out the analogies because they are usually misunderstood and mainly used to manipulate thinking much akin to American politics today. Can some of us take anything at face value without misconstruing what is actually happening?
I don't know about you - but I never ask for crust, sauce, and cheese when I order a pizza. If my regular place started calling sauce an 'item' I'd be looking for a new pizza place.
The menu at a pizza place says that crust, sauce, etc are part of the pizza, usually. So you were aware at the time you bought the pie that these things were included. The MMO dev is trying to make you aware of what is included in the sub fee, you're just not reading it.
The analogy only stretches so far, so lets go back to Ruth's Chris steakhouse. The steak is $40. The potatoes are $10 more. You'll say "Hey a steakhouse hsould include the potatoes! Black Anus charges me $25 and I get potatoes, steak AND salad!" completely ignores the fact that the RC steak dinner is more than twice as good as a Black Anus dinner. They're doing you a *favor* by making the potatoes optional. If you choose to see this as a reason NOT to eat there, thanks. It means reservations will be easier for me to get.
Originally posted by choujiofkono
Like anyone I pay for a service I expect them to work hard for my money. I don't want to give slouches hundreds of dollars a year for a service I don't think is worth it.
If you have been reading threads over the last couple years you can see huge vast numbers of MMO players that are simply fed up with how the genre has been managed but are simply left without options.
I'm voicing the only option for these people and myself which is to force these companies over time to change their policies.
They don't want you to stop paying the subscription fees. They don't want to add items to the game monthly when they can throw them onto a shop and get paid TWICE for it. Once from the subs, and once from the price in the shop. That is exactly what's happening.
I don't care if people keep paying subscriptions and keep spending money in shops. It just shows how willing people are to give their money to a company for essentially hitting Cntl+V.
I do care that it is obviously destroying the genre. There are no more immersive expanding worlds if this is allowed to continue.
I don't care if they're slouching, drinking margaritas in Cabo while coding with their toes. I approach the value proposition as "how much fun am I going to have" and "how much does it cost me". If I find out that someone is charging a price I find worthwhile for a service they pay/work next to nothing to create, my attitude is "Good on ya!". What you're doing is like saying "I refuse to have fun because you're making money off of me!". LIfe's too short. Sign me up for the fun.
The huge numbers of MMO players aren't fed up enough yet to stop paying. And I am very skeptical of the "hugeness" of the numbers. I think the vast majority of MMO players (who have never heard of MMORPG.COM forums) are happy with it -- or *just happy enough* for the business model to be successful.
You're not paying TWICE, dammit. Your sub fee does not entitle you to it the first time, so if you pay $25 for a horse, you're paying $25 for a horse, plain and simple. It would be unethical if they said $25 for a lifetime horsey! and hten next month said "$25 more or no horsey for joo!". They're not doing that.
Force them to change? Does the name Don Quixote ring a bell? If the market for immersive expanding worlds existed (and it does) there would be immersive expanding worlds (there are, but they're not the AAA titles you think you're entitled to). You want to play mass-appeal games, you get mass-appeal business model. YOU pay for it, so YOU consent condone approve justify validate.
If you insist on getting a $25 16 oz prime grade ribeye steak with potatoes, then a) Don't whine at BLack Anus because their meat is Choice or No-Roll and b) don't whine at RC because they're charging you twice for the potatos. Go home, save your money and wait for a miracle.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
The menu at a pizza place says that crust, sauce, etc are part of the pizza, usually. So you were aware at the time you bought the pie that these things were included. The MMO dev is trying to make you aware of what is included in the sub fee, you're just not reading it.
The analogy only stretches so far, so lets go back to Ruth's Chris steakhouse. The steak is $40. The potatoes are $10 more. You'll say "Hey a steakhouse hsould include the potatoes! Black Anus charges me $25 and I get potatoes, steak AND salad!" completely ignores the fact that the RC steak dinner is more than twice as good as a Black Anus dinner. They're doing you a *favor* by making the potatoes optional. If you choose to see this as a reason NOT to eat there, thanks. It means reservations will be easier for me to get.
I'm not going to keep up with this analogy debate. I have made my point.
I will ask you this - do you subscribe to any P2P MMOs?
If so - why don't you want the best value for your dollar?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Sounds like somebody is trying to justify to themselves spending minimum $50+$15+$25 = $90 to me. That's just if you paid for the game and a month and the sparkling horsey. You could have bought two games for that price.
For the record, I never once in this entire thread referred to WoW or the new shining barbie pony of power. Seems to me that people have it on their mind and money is certainly to blame methinks.
This entire thread is aimed at the whole MMO genre and the direction it's going. Which in case you weren't paying attention... is in the toilet.
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized" "The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
I will ask you this - do you subscribe to any P2P MMOs?
If so - why don't you want the best value for your dollar?
At present, no, but that's because of unemployment. In the past I've subbed to UO (1 yr) EQ1 (2 yrs), Eve (total of 3 yrs), Wow (2 yrs), EQ2 (2 yrs), fallen earth (whatever the included sub was), CO (same). If I could afford a sub at the moment, I'm still not sure I'd play anything current. Maybe EQ2 again. Maybe Eve (if I could figure out how not to let it turn into a 2nd job). Nothing on the current horizon looks appealing either. Black Prophecy maybe (cuz... oh yeah, add Neocron 1 yr to my list, reakktor is cool).
But that's just the point. None of them offer enough value for my dollar so I don't play them. If I *did* play them, I know ahead of time that some content is ***>not<*** included in the sub fee. I don't care. I would never pay $25 for a horse, but if I *DID* it would be because I made a value judgment and found it to be worthy. I wouldn't buy the horse and cry about "paying twice". I wouldn't covet the horse, claim I was entitled to it, and still not pay for it. I'd buy it or not buy it. I'd move on.
I did pay a stupid amount of money in Rappelz trying to get a hawkman for a pet. Like a 20-something with their first credit card, I got burned and I learned.
It used to really really bother me that at some hotels in Las Vegas, the fancy suites simply are not available to rent. You can only get them as comp for spending shitloads of money gambling. I got all angry that my money should be good enough -- but the fact is the Casino makes more money off those rooms by giving them away for free *to the right people* than by renting them to my sorry ass. Even when the rooms are empty, there is a whole class of people who *try* to be big enough spenders to get comped one of those rooms as if it's an achievement they need to earn. If they allowed people to just walk in off the street and rent them, that incentive would be ruined and a lot of people on that particular treadmill would step off of it, wait for "low season" and just buy the damn room.
That's how I feel about people who believe that they NEED or are ENTITLED to 100% of the content of a game. You put yourself on that treadmill. You can take yourself off. Approach each purchasing decision as a value-for-money proposition. Am I going to have $25 worth of fun? If yes, pay $25 and don't look back. If not, pat yourself on the back for saving $25, have a laugh at those who did pay, and don't look back.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
A shirt on a vendor did not take enough work to justify 10$.
That's the huge difference.
When P2P MMOs start building their game design and balance around the item shop items, and HOLDING BACK fun and neat stuff, unless you pay extra for them, purely for money grab, then its a horrible horrible problem, and its already begun. $1
WHat justifies the $10 is someones' willingness to pay $10. If that's not you, you are not harmed by this.
They do not OWE you anything other than what was agreed upon at the time of sale. And you did agree (leaving aside debate over the validity of click-through licenses).
A pizza from Round Table costs about $3.00 to make. despite advertising about the quality of ingredients, the corp offices struggle very hard to keep the cost under $3. Interestingly, small, medium, large etc all cost about the same to make -- because the electricity that runs the oven is the major portion of the cost.
But do you cry abgout OMG they make me pay EXTRA for PEPPERONI? Pepperoni should be INCLUDED. Yes I read where it said "CHeese Pizza" when I clicked "OK" but dammit that pepperoni doesn't cost them an extra $2 to put on so they shouldn't charge me $2 for it.
That's economics, man. If you have issues with it, I got some bad news for you about how the world works.
Your analogy has holes in it. Here's a better one.
Most pizza places sell pizza 10 dollars for a large.
A new type of pizza comes along that makes you pay about 2 dollars extra for some better quality/quality assurance and other benefits. People accept that, because they're getting a better deal.
Now a pizza place comes along that sells the regular 10 dollar pizza, AND charges the additional 2 dollars per week, but with none of the benefits the 2 dollars a week usually comes with. Instead, they hold those benefits back, and if you want them, you pay AGAIN on top of that.
Sounds like somebody is trying to justify to themselves spending minimum $50+$15+$25 = $90 to me. That's just if you paid for the game and a month and the sparkling horsey. You could have bought two games for that price.
For the record, I never once in this entire thread referred to WoW or the new shining barbie pony of power. Seems to me that people have it on their mind and money is certainly to blame methinks.
This entire thread is aimed at the whole MMO genre and the direction it's going. Which in case you weren't paying attention... is in the toilet.
Sorry if I gave that impression. It's not the case. Like I said above, I fell into this trap in Rappelz once & never got the shiney I thought I so desperately needed. I haven't subbed to Wow since 2006, btw.
One of the claims in this thread (maybe not by you) was about content that would have been included as achievable but was "withheld" to extract money from people. This might not have been a direct reference to the sparkling barbie poney, but the SBP is the most obvious example of it.
I disagree that the MMO genre is "in the toilet". Like anything (TV shows, movies, books, music) there are cycles during which most of the market is churning out stinky sweaty crap that the masses are eating up. We're in one of those cycles now. I fully expect that as the market matures, the kind of "tiered service" that I suspect underlies your anger is only just beginning to evolve.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
Now a pizza place comes along that sells the regular 10 dollar pizza, AND charges the additional 2 dollars per week, but with none of the benefits the 2 dollars a week usually comes with. Instead, they hold those benefits back, and if you want them, you pay AGAIN on top of that.
No. You pay $10 per week and for that you get to eat all the pizzas on Table A anytime you want. If you want a pizza from Table B you have to pay extra for it. As long as you knew that pepperoni is a Table B item when you signed up for it, you have nothing to complain about. If they MOVE pepperoni that you used to eat for your $10 to the premium table, the you *have something to say*.
What you have to say is "I'm going to stop paying the $10 per week now".
As soon as you pay the next week's $10, you have agreed to pepperoni being a table B item. During the time until your current $10 expires, you *might* be able to convice a judge that you deserve to continue eating pepperoni. Good luck with that. You probably signed an agreement that limits their liability to refunding part of the $10, but to get THAT you have to go to court. For $10.
If they add Linguica as a New Exclusivamundo[tm] Table B Item, you have no claim to make. Unless you can find the clause in the agreement which explicitly states you get all new toppings when they come out. I'm going to bet ( yeah I don't read 'em either ) that this clause isn't actually there.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
Comments
Prices rise. The cost of a mars bar has risen, the cost of a packet of crisps has risen, the cost of powering a house (or a PC, or a server) has risen. However, prices of subs have stayed just about the same.
Inflation (why these prices are rising) is a fact of life. There's nothing you can do about that. It affects the price of power, water, maintenance, wages, the whole damn lot. Therefore Blizzard's costs rise. In order to maintain their profit (they're a business, not a charity) they have introduced a cash shop. Why is this such a shock? Raising subs is a dangerous game. How do we know that every rise is due to rising costs? If they just want our money, as you seem to think, surely they would raise subs every few months? Be careful what you wish for, fella.....
And it is utterly not true to think we would have this stuff if a cash shop didn't exist. Did you get the Collector's edition pets without paying for them? The BlizzCon pets without paying to go to BlizzCon? No, you had to pay. This stuff has been happening all the time. Now that it is obvious, everyone gets on their moral high horse.
Instead, stop expecting profitable companies to act like charities!
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Dude. SO DON'T FUCKING PAY. If you're so sure you're being ripped off, take up shuffleboard.
You've MADE your point. We just don't agree with you. If Safeway tries selling oranges for $4 apiece, I don't go to the store to try to convince everyone to shop at Kragen's Auto Parts to try to convice Safeway to give them to me for free. If I buy those oranges, it isn't Safeway's fault.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
Keep the language pg-rated. By using curse words towards people on an anonymous web forum you're showing signs of your maturity.
On another note...
Since some people believe the current state of MMO's is a natural progression of a capitalist society I made them a picture that will explain exactly what that means and what they are doing to perpetuate the ongoing disease of the genre we love.
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized"
"The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
So are you against buying smaller content batches? Like big patches? Or expansion packs? Or both?
It is my opinion, that your opinion is incorrect.
if its purely vanity items i guess there's nothing to be essentially worried about. kinda like respraying your car or changing the bodykit. it would bring up more concerns if the cash shop sells items/enhances that directly affect how the car performs, ie: changing the horse power of the car. Forgive the car analogy:P
i'm sure most of us wouldnt bother paying real cash for just vanity items.
<QQ moar plz. kkthxbai.>
What are "expansion packs" in a subscription based MMO besides a bundle of game enhancements and game content that has been developed over time as people pay their initial game cost and their monthly subscription? Instead of making the game better they are working on more ways to take your money!!! You shouldn't have to pay a subscription cost and pay a fee every month thereafter for mainly bug fixes that should have been fixed before the game was even released. The sheep keep paying for content that has already been paid for, and "updates" that make the game what the game should have been in the first place.
For a free to play subscription model I take the other side. In that case you have not paid for the content yet and are not paying a monthly subscription fee. It is totally reasonable in that case to charge a fee for added content as long as it's a "side dish" or enhancement of some kind that is worth the cost as up to the player.
Either way the costs of these subscription models should be about even when all filtered out. The business of subs + item shops is to provide a confusing, fuzzy mess of charges that will draw more cash out of your pockets over time. When people go to the store and read the boxes, they wouldn't buy an MMO that costs $25 bux a month when the average is $15 a month and they can buy a whole new game and experience for $50. They had to come up with a way to get it in under the radar and hit you when you were addicted and advertising was high by other players with the "additional content". It's a slick psychological maneuver no question about it. It's not for the players benefit or as a "service" to their customers.
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized"
"The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
You're right, they shouldn't have to pay additional fees after their monthly fees and initial game purchase, and they don't. I've played all my subscription games without spending a dime outside of the subscription and expansion packs. Sounds like you're talking about small patches, in which case, give me a game that makes you pay for patching?
Now if you're asking that a game release with all the expansions attached and ready to go, and they should give you it for the price of a regular MMO... you're nuts. It'd take forever to make the game, cost a ton of money, and most MMOs would sink with only one, maybe two, actually staying afloat. And what happened when people did all the content? They'd leave, thus the MMO would shut down due to lack of subs and halt anyone from playing the game.
Expansion packs likely keep UO going so that people in the new generation can play it...
It is my opinion, that your opinion is incorrect.
Yes, until they start designing game content around these items, or giving you no alternative to get the vanity items other than via the cash shop. I'd rather quest for a fancy shirt than pay extra for it.
Expansions are justified cause they took a lot of hard work and code.
A shirt on a vendor did not take enough work to justify 10$.
That's the huge difference.
When P2P MMOs start building their game design and balance around the item shop items, and HOLDING BACK fun and neat stuff, unless you pay extra for them, purely for money grab, then its a horrible horrible problem, and its already begun. $1
WHat justifies the $10 is someones' willingness to pay $10. If that's not you, you are not harmed by this.
They do not OWE you anything other than what was agreed upon at the time of sale. And you did agree (leaving aside debate over the validity of click-through licenses).
A pizza from Round Table costs about $3.00 to make. despite advertising about the quality of ingredients, the corp offices struggle very hard to keep the cost under $3. Interestingly, small, medium, large etc all cost about the same to make -- because the electricity that runs the oven is the major portion of the cost.
But do you cry abgout OMG they make me pay EXTRA for PEPPERONI? Pepperoni should be INCLUDED. Yes I read where it said "CHeese Pizza" when I clicked "OK" but dammit that pepperoni doesn't cost them an extra $2 to put on so they shouldn't charge me $2 for it.
That's economics, man. If you have issues with it, I got some bad news for you about how the world works.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
You can think what you like about my maturity. And use your mod edit powers or if (as I suspect) you don't have any then stop playing language police.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
I think some people who read these threads are half blind.
If we are comparing MMO's to pizza it would be closer to say:
a) paid for pizza (FINE) compared to the initial cost of an MMO
b) Paid extra for sausage (FINE)
c) pay monthly for sausage (wait WHAT??) compared to paying the subscription fee that is supposed to be paying for added content and fixes. They only have to make it once for 100k+people!!!<-----
What we are talking about here is paying twice for the same thing. Just because these companies are slipping in new rules under your noses diesn't make it any less ridiculous. BAAAAAAAAAAAAA
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized"
"The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
No, I get it. The argument is that you're claiming to be charged for something you should get for free -- that the $25 horse would have been achievable, or that the monthly fee entitles you to 100% of the content developed for the game.
That there's somethign unethical about cash shops in general or about the sub + cash shop model.
But you're not thusly entitled. And in most cases, the exact terms of your entitlement were spelled out for you.
If a breach of contrac has occurred, you have the opportunity to stop paying in order to prevent economic harm.
I'm sorry. You don't like it. You can not like it all you want. But the *only* claim you had that there was something unethical going on evaporated the minute you clicked "I Agree", or paid the next installment of your subscription.
You'll say that this kind of thread is supposed tobe a "call to arms", to get the masses to stop supporting this evil business model. Good luck with that. See, when *I* agreed, I knew what I was getting. I'm not offended by the cash shop + sub model. I do not feel entitled to every single shiney the game offers. So I'm not going to stop.
And we MMORPG.COMers are a razor thin minority. The fact that this kind of cash grab is successful is all the proof you need. You're like the tea party types who think that one poorly spelled protest sign is going to spark a rebellion... Good luck with that.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
I don't know about you - but I never ask for crust, sauce, and cheese when I order a pizza. If my regular place started calling sauce an 'item' I'd be looking for a new pizza place.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Well you are partially correct.
The only vote we get is with our dollars. So as the guy said a few replies ago, the debate is worth having simply because it only benefits the developers not to.
Like anyone I pay for a service I expect them to work hard for my money. I don't want to give slouches hundreds of dollars a year for a service I don't think is worth it. If you have been reading threads over the last couple years you can see huge vast numbers of MMO players that are simply fed up with how the genre has been managed but are simply left without options.
I'm voicing the only option for these people and myself which is to force these companies over time to change their policies. They don't want you to stop paying the subscription fees. They don't want to add items to the game monthly when they can throw them onto a shop and get paid TWICE for it. Once from the subs, and once from the price in the shop. That is exactly what's happening.
I don't care if people keep paying subscriptions and keep spending money in shops. It just shows how willing people are to give their money to a company for essentially hitting Cntl+V.
I do care that it is obviously destroying the genre. There are no more immersive expanding worlds if this is allowed to continue.
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized"
"The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
That's a bad analogy. Item shop would be more akin to providing another option for your pizza like charging an extra 50 cents for four cheese rather than regular cheese on your pizza. It's not like the companies are taking the fluff that exists within the game and started charging real money for it. No, they merely provided another option in terms of vanity and fluff for a monetary value.
If analogies are going to be used, they should represent the whole picture and not just be bent to try and fit just your side of the argument. It's like forcing a piece into a puzzle that could almost fit, but not quite and deep down you know its not the right piece (those with experience from putting together puzzles should understand this).
I do not agree with your claim that the companies are not removing content that used to go into patches to put in the cash.
Thus, the analogy is apt. The pizza place is removing sauce from the standard pizza ingredients, and charging extra for it.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Thus, the analogy is apt. The pizza place is removing sauce from the standard pizza ingredients, and charging extra for it.
I know I have said this before, but who's to say they would have even included particular items in a patch. They could just as easily throw it on the next expansion and make you pay for it that way. Again, senseless assumptions does not make sound arguments.
They aer not taking a key component (the sauce) out of the game and then turning around and charging for it. Again, if you read my post in a previous page, you're practicing extremism. Many arguments/analogies you have made is stretching definitions, words and analogies to try and make something like RMT worse than it is. RMT isn't good, but the bad is overexaggerated. It's starting to sound more and more like propaganda and conspiracy theories and less like an actual reasons to dislike actions taken by particular companies.
Let's stick to the plain old facts and throw out the analogies because they are usually misunderstood and mainly used to manipulate thinking much akin to American politics today. Can some of us take anything at face value without misconstruing what is actually happening?
The menu at a pizza place says that crust, sauce, etc are part of the pizza, usually. So you were aware at the time you bought the pie that these things were included. The MMO dev is trying to make you aware of what is included in the sub fee, you're just not reading it.
The analogy only stretches so far, so lets go back to Ruth's Chris steakhouse. The steak is $40. The potatoes are $10 more. You'll say "Hey a steakhouse hsould include the potatoes! Black Anus charges me $25 and I get potatoes, steak AND salad!" completely ignores the fact that the RC steak dinner is more than twice as good as a Black Anus dinner. They're doing you a *favor* by making the potatoes optional. If you choose to see this as a reason NOT to eat there, thanks. It means reservations will be easier for me to get.
I don't care if they're slouching, drinking margaritas in Cabo while coding with their toes. I approach the value proposition as "how much fun am I going to have" and "how much does it cost me". If I find out that someone is charging a price I find worthwhile for a service they pay/work next to nothing to create, my attitude is "Good on ya!". What you're doing is like saying "I refuse to have fun because you're making money off of me!". LIfe's too short. Sign me up for the fun.
The huge numbers of MMO players aren't fed up enough yet to stop paying. And I am very skeptical of the "hugeness" of the numbers. I think the vast majority of MMO players (who have never heard of MMORPG.COM forums) are happy with it -- or *just happy enough* for the business model to be successful.
You're not paying TWICE, dammit. Your sub fee does not entitle you to it the first time, so if you pay $25 for a horse, you're paying $25 for a horse, plain and simple. It would be unethical if they said $25 for a lifetime horsey! and hten next month said "$25 more or no horsey for joo!". They're not doing that.
Force them to change? Does the name Don Quixote ring a bell? If the market for immersive expanding worlds existed (and it does) there would be immersive expanding worlds (there are, but they're not the AAA titles you think you're entitled to). You want to play mass-appeal games, you get mass-appeal business model. YOU pay for it, so YOU consent condone approve justify validate.
If you insist on getting a $25 16 oz prime grade ribeye steak with potatoes, then a) Don't whine at BLack Anus because their meat is Choice or No-Roll and b) don't whine at RC because they're charging you twice for the potatos. Go home, save your money and wait for a miracle.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Sounds like somebody is trying to justify to themselves spending minimum $50+$15+$25 = $90 to me. That's just if you paid for the game and a month and the sparkling horsey. You could have bought two games for that price.
For the record, I never once in this entire thread referred to WoW or the new shining barbie pony of power. Seems to me that people have it on their mind and money is certainly to blame methinks.
This entire thread is aimed at the whole MMO genre and the direction it's going. Which in case you weren't paying attention... is in the toilet.
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized"
"The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
At present, no, but that's because of unemployment. In the past I've subbed to UO (1 yr) EQ1 (2 yrs), Eve (total of 3 yrs), Wow (2 yrs), EQ2 (2 yrs), fallen earth (whatever the included sub was), CO (same). If I could afford a sub at the moment, I'm still not sure I'd play anything current. Maybe EQ2 again. Maybe Eve (if I could figure out how not to let it turn into a 2nd job). Nothing on the current horizon looks appealing either. Black Prophecy maybe (cuz... oh yeah, add Neocron 1 yr to my list, reakktor is cool).
But that's just the point. None of them offer enough value for my dollar so I don't play them. If I *did* play them, I know ahead of time that some content is ***>not<*** included in the sub fee. I don't care. I would never pay $25 for a horse, but if I *DID* it would be because I made a value judgment and found it to be worthy. I wouldn't buy the horse and cry about "paying twice". I wouldn't covet the horse, claim I was entitled to it, and still not pay for it. I'd buy it or not buy it. I'd move on.
I did pay a stupid amount of money in Rappelz trying to get a hawkman for a pet. Like a 20-something with their first credit card, I got burned and I learned.
It used to really really bother me that at some hotels in Las Vegas, the fancy suites simply are not available to rent. You can only get them as comp for spending shitloads of money gambling. I got all angry that my money should be good enough -- but the fact is the Casino makes more money off those rooms by giving them away for free *to the right people* than by renting them to my sorry ass. Even when the rooms are empty, there is a whole class of people who *try* to be big enough spenders to get comped one of those rooms as if it's an achievement they need to earn. If they allowed people to just walk in off the street and rent them, that incentive would be ruined and a lot of people on that particular treadmill would step off of it, wait for "low season" and just buy the damn room.
That's how I feel about people who believe that they NEED or are ENTITLED to 100% of the content of a game. You put yourself on that treadmill. You can take yourself off. Approach each purchasing decision as a value-for-money proposition. Am I going to have $25 worth of fun? If yes, pay $25 and don't look back. If not, pat yourself on the back for saving $25, have a laugh at those who did pay, and don't look back.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
Your analogy has holes in it. Here's a better one.
Most pizza places sell pizza 10 dollars for a large.
A new type of pizza comes along that makes you pay about 2 dollars extra for some better quality/quality assurance and other benefits. People accept that, because they're getting a better deal.
Now a pizza place comes along that sells the regular 10 dollar pizza, AND charges the additional 2 dollars per week, but with none of the benefits the 2 dollars a week usually comes with. Instead, they hold those benefits back, and if you want them, you pay AGAIN on top of that.
Sorry if I gave that impression. It's not the case. Like I said above, I fell into this trap in Rappelz once & never got the shiney I thought I so desperately needed. I haven't subbed to Wow since 2006, btw.
One of the claims in this thread (maybe not by you) was about content that would have been included as achievable but was "withheld" to extract money from people. This might not have been a direct reference to the sparkling barbie poney, but the SBP is the most obvious example of it.
I disagree that the MMO genre is "in the toilet". Like anything (TV shows, movies, books, music) there are cycles during which most of the market is churning out stinky sweaty crap that the masses are eating up. We're in one of those cycles now. I fully expect that as the market matures, the kind of "tiered service" that I suspect underlies your anger is only just beginning to evolve.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
No. You pay $10 per week and for that you get to eat all the pizzas on Table A anytime you want. If you want a pizza from Table B you have to pay extra for it. As long as you knew that pepperoni is a Table B item when you signed up for it, you have nothing to complain about. If they MOVE pepperoni that you used to eat for your $10 to the premium table, the you *have something to say*.
What you have to say is "I'm going to stop paying the $10 per week now".
As soon as you pay the next week's $10, you have agreed to pepperoni being a table B item. During the time until your current $10 expires, you *might* be able to convice a judge that you deserve to continue eating pepperoni. Good luck with that. You probably signed an agreement that limits their liability to refunding part of the $10, but to get THAT you have to go to court. For $10.
If they add Linguica as a New Exclusivamundo[tm] Table B Item, you have no claim to make. Unless you can find the clause in the agreement which explicitly states you get all new toppings when they come out. I'm going to bet ( yeah I don't read 'em either ) that this clause isn't actually there.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji