I agree with some others here. MMO, to me, is massive multiplayer. Its not massive multiplayer if stuff is instanced. Then its just Diablo reloaded.
Besides, Vanguard was a great attempt at an old style MMORPG again. Not exactly UO style but then again, I'm not into UO style myself much.
Anyway, there where many classes, many races, huge seamless game world with almost no instances (except for a fixed number of copies of the great raid dungeon Ancient Port Warehouse).. and above all, CHALLENGE. Maybe still not enough of it, and too much of it only in the endgame. And too fast leveling, sadly. Anyway it was better than most other MMOs, from what people kept telling me (I cant do the comparison myself, I always stayed away from WoW and the like).
Additionally the many experimental features, such as diplomacy. Crafting was maybe not as good as SWG, but already very complex.
Man, conceptionally Vanguard just rocks so hard.
Another reason why it was a huge loss for the MMO community altogether Vanguard failed. Had it succeeded, many people would have been able to appreciate such features. Sigh.
Originally posted by Rydeson
Class distinction.. EVERY class should be different then each other.. even if it means balance issues.. I'm sorry, but a priest should NOT be able to fight and beat a warrior..
I definitely dont want the "good old passive healbot healers" back. They are everywhere in modern games too, so I dont see whats especiall "old school" about them either. I dont think I'll play a game where I'll be that passive again. Vanguard killed that one for me.
And you're wrong. A priest is a fearsome opponent in combat, because they can heal themselves. I consider it only logical that they will be superior to a pure tank class with low damage output like a warrior in direct 1vs1 PvP.
Originally posted by SweetZoid
Why oldschool when we get Guild Wars 2!!?
Why a brain and thoughts if we can just throw around another game name that hasnt been released yet ?
It depends on which features you miss. If you mean things like spawn camping, open pvp, no instances, long travel times, players putting up houses haphazardly anywhere, forced grouping, etc., then no, I'll pass.
There's nothing wrong with turning an eye to the past, people do it all the time irl. But remember the bad with the good.
How about we leave out the bad features of old MMOs and just think about the good ones!
Is the glass half empty or half full?
To be honest, what were the good features and what were the bad? Back then, MMO's were few and far between. The good features back then was having my own character, fighting monsters, other people and persistence. That's in all MMO's today and we have so many choices.
Sure you can also argue about community etc., but every MMO has their own flavor of communities and you learn to separate the good frmo the bad (and that alone is personal opinion). Game mechanics back then were generic compared to whats nitroduced today especially to the levels people have taken them. Encounters are varied and more interactive. I can't think of more but I'm off to lunch!
Er... after reading this I have a strong feeling you never played old MMORPGs.
There were MANY MMOs back then, probably just as many "popular" ones as there are today, if not more. Whats more, each one was DIFFERENT from one another in more than just superficial ways. Sure, today we have AoC, LotRO, and WoW, but they are all fundamentally the exact same game with the exact same focus.
Another thing, most MMOs from back then had MORE content and MORE to do than modern MMOs, so I don't know what you mean by good features being "have my own character and fighting monsters". Modern MMOs are so far beyond compared to some of the advanced features in those old MMOs.
The good features were the lack of instances, the open world, the many more choices, virtual world style, rather than a series of mini games, sandbox style, more heavy focus on community interacting and social aspects. Also, the lack of maps was a huge plus for immersion, in my opinion.
Old are new, people will still find something to complain about. Personally past is past. Move on and find something else to do already.
Yes, I'm just going to roll over and accept that my favorite genre of game has entirely changed style of gameplay, focus, and community, and be happy about it :P
When people like something, they don't just "forget about it". There are a great many people that feel the same way we do, enough for a profitable game (at least 300,000 people bought Vanguard in the first week), we're just waiting for a company to do so.
When you're being sold Cash Shop Online Adventures in a few years, we'll be laughing telling you to move on.
To be honest, what were the good features and what were the bad? Back then, MMO's were few and far between. The good features back then was having my own character, fighting monsters, other people and persistence. That's in all MMO's today and we have so many choices.
Sure you can also argue about community etc., but every MMO has their own flavor of communities and you learn to separate the good frmo the bad (and that alone is personal opinion). Game mechanics back then were generic compared to whats nitroduced today especially to the levels people have taken them. Encounters are varied and more interactive. I can't think of more but I'm off to lunch!
Actuallly you must have not played MMOs back in the day, because there was alittle more to the good side than just being able to make a charecter. lol
And same can be said to you. First of all, I'm completely confident of my history, having started with MUD's and playing MMO's since Ultima Online. It's funny you can write such remarks but yet you cannot point out any more of the "good sides" that I have listed. You tell me what I missed or yuo just proven me right. Don't give the thread these one liners with no actual support to the contrary. It's near thoughtless and inconsiderate.
It was new, it was fun, but it was fairly generic and a less fleshed out version of the MMO's we have today. It was fun back then because it was new, it wasn't done yet, but now the genre has to progress and move forward to continue providing fresh experiences. Not rehashes of the same thing.
I pointed out great things of the past. You appparently did not start reading from the beggining. I didn't Re-point them out because im not going to sound like a broken record.
So why post in the first place then? Postnig things like that just makes you come off as a flamer/troll because you are not providing any valuable input. It makes you look condescending and without any proof to show for why you are above others like myself. By the way, I looked at all your "great points" and obviously none of them explicitly answered my question. Again, What was there in the past that was so great that is not currently in MMO's today?
I already addressed the community part, obviously very different than it was in the past when you draw in a much bigger population, but the good and the bad plaeyrs are always going t be everywhere since MMO's are big now.
Please if you are going to respond, not another thoughtless 1-2 liner. Contribute to the topic or don't at all, its a waste of space if you're not going to point out things and elaborate and judge other posters that you don't even know about.
Why are you the only person here making an arguement out of a thread of peoples personal feelings? lol, and trying to get all technical for no reason. dude, this is a disscussion about people who would like to see some old school features come back or not. and how they feel just in general about mmos. calm down and go argue on a different thread thats asking for it.
I want a game with the playability and userfriendliness of WoW along with the depth and challenge of Everquest not games like Darkfall which promote clunky UIs and a lack of direction and features as game mechanics.
So... you want WoW without instances?
"lack of direction" is what many people call... a sandbox. It's what oldschool MMOs were closer to. Can't have one without the other.
It was new, it was fun, but it was fairly generic and a less fleshed out version of the MMO's we have today. It was fun back then because it was new, it wasn't done yet, but now the genre has to progress and move forward to continue providing fresh experiences. Not rehashes of the same thing.
That is exactly true. Back in the days of UO and EQ, people played these games both because they didn't have a choice and because they didn't know any better. These were the games that put MMOs on the map, people accepted them as they were, warts and all, because they didn't have other, better games to compare them to, they didn't realize that these games were flawed because there weren't any unflawed games available.
Unfortunately, there are people who became convinced that simply because these games were first, they were also automatically best and they measure everything that's come after by the flawed standards of the first games on the market. It's like trying to gauge all video games by the standards of Pong. If you're going to hold Pong up as the ultimate game, then everything else, no matter how advanced, becomes inherently inferior.
Some people need to take a few giant sized steps backward and actually examine the games for what they actually are rather than what their nostalgia goggles have made them see all these years.
I think one of the problem is UO never really have huge population. And it dies really fast after it reach it's peak.
And you can't deny EQ, Wow is a huge factor why UO, SWG dies.
There are a bunch of loyal follower of the UO/SWG model. But you need to have enough so developer will invest huge budget in it.
For example, I love turn based MMO, there are a bunch of people like me. But the people like turn based MMO isn't big enough so there's very few turn based MMO on the market.
Anyway, Tera is said to be a sandbox game. Hopefully it's something different from wow. I'm getting sick of the wow style MMO.
I believe SWG died because it tried to convert to WoW model through CU and NGE. Which caused biggest online gaming rage in MMORPG history.
Sadly Darkfall doesn't have too many sandbox features (yet) but it certainly is a fresh breath in this age of WoW clones.
Er... after reading this I have a strong feeling you never played old MMORPGs. There were MANY MMOs back then, probably just as many "popular" ones as there are today, if not more. Whats more, each one was DIFFERENT from one another in more than just superficial ways. Sure, today we have AoC, LotRO, and WoW, but they are all fundamentally the exact same game with the exact same focus. Another thing, most MMOs from back then had MORE content and MORE to do than modern MMOs, so I don't know what you mean by good features being "have my own character and fighting monsters". Modern MMOs are so far beyond compared to some of the advanced features in those old MMOs. The good features were the lack of instances, the open world, the many more choices, virtual world style, rather than a series of mini games, sandbox style, more heavy focus on community interacting and social aspects. Also, the lack of maps was a huge plus for immersion, in my opinion.
A much better response especially in the bold. In regards to the bold, you merely list off a list of themeparks then say sandboxes don't exist today. Maybe not exactly in the Ultima Online sense, but what do you call EVE Online, Darkfall and Mortal Online? Yes I know the sandboxes list aer short in terms of new and current, but more are on the rise and its something thats acknowledged. Really when you look in the past, you could only count sandboxes on 1 hand yet alone the total amount of MMO's only on two (and maybe a foot or two).
With instancing, its just not practical to not utilize even a little bit of it. Back then, only thousands of players were into MMO's, yet alone even knew about the existence of MMO's, today we're in the millions. You have to be able to cater to them all in as equal of a game experience as possible.
I wouldn't say games back then catered too much to the social aspects/community parts of the game whereas there was such a large following of players that were all into the game more or less equally. The amount of interest amongst each player considered individually varies greatly today and people organized themselves much better back then, but again, we're dealing with a much larger population. I think there's more tools today that imlpement this better albeit things like instant teleports to instances and waiting queus does destroy some bits of this. I can't think of many features UO or DAoC had that really implemented many social features that does not exist today.
PS: I don't know where you guys get these judgements from especially without asserting your own history. It's a weak form of discrediting the poster without getting to teh actual point.
I don't want old school to come back, but I would like to see some abandoned features being incorporated into existing and future games. I miss having a house that people could just randomly bumble into and I miss crafting being the backbone of the economy. I miss non-combat classes and gameplay that isn't driven by the pursuit of phat lewt.
I don't miss empty worlds with nothing to do, unresponsive combat or camp grinding. I don't lament the loss of trains, forced grouping, permadeath, XP loss or excessive downtime.
Instead of wishing for the old school to return, I'd prefer to hope that the next generation incorporates the strongest elements of both current AND old school MMOs.
It depends on which features you miss. If you mean things like spawn camping, open pvp, no instances, long travel times, players putting up houses haphazardly anywhere, forced grouping, etc., then no, I'll pass.
There's nothing wrong with turning an eye to the past, people do it all the time irl. But remember the bad with the good.
How about we leave out the bad features of old MMOs and just think about the good ones!
Is the glass half empty or half full?
To be honest, what were the good features and what were the bad? Back then, MMO's were few and far between. The good features back then was having my own character, fighting monsters, other people and persistence. That's in all MMO's today and we have so many choices.
Sure you can also argue about community etc., but every MMO has their own flavor of communities and you learn to separate the good frmo the bad (and that alone is personal opinion). Game mechanics back then were generic compared to whats nitroduced today especially to the levels people have taken them. Encounters are varied and more interactive. I can't think of more but I'm off to lunch!
Er... after reading this I have a strong feeling you never played old MMORPGs.
There were MANY MMOs back then, probably just as many "popular" ones as there are today, if not more. Whats more, each one was DIFFERENT from one another in more than just superficial ways. Sure, today we have AoC, LotRO, and WoW, but they are all fundamentally the exact same game with the exact same focus.
Another thing, most MMOs from back then had MORE content and MORE to do than modern MMOs, so I don't know what you mean by good features being "have my own character and fighting monsters". Modern MMOs are so far beyond compared to some of the advanced features in those old MMOs.
The good features were the lack of instances, the open world, the many more choices, virtual world style, rather than a series of mini games, sandbox style, more heavy focus on community interacting and social aspects. Also, the lack of maps was a huge plus for immersion, in my opinion.
^This,
Older MMOs were about playing, socializing, and just exploring a virtual world. There wasn't this rush to end game crap that we have today. There was no real need to power through the game because end game was always going to be there. Today its all about "Who got to cap first" and "Which guild got server first". Back then people didn't give a crap about that.
Also in older MMOs you had people who were willing to talk with others and help people just for the heck of it. People would actually take the time to help random low level players clear a camp or hold off high level NPCs to help someone complete their class quests. In turn the people they helped would go on to do the say, paying it forward.
Sadly in newer games you dont have that. You can have several people waiting for a mob to spawn for a quest update and none of them will group up, instead they will try to out DPS each other in hopes of being the one who gets the kill. People act like dicks in new games because they can get away with it. In older MMOs your name was linked to your reputation. Act like a dick and good luck getting anywhere. Today people hide behind name changes and server transfers.
Exploration. Older MMOs had a sense of exploration, where you could head off in any direction and possibly find something. NPCs would often hint at some strange temple to the south or the ruins of a castle forgotten to time in the north. New games the NPC tells you where it is, how to get there and even marks the path to this 'Lost Temple' on your map.
Content. While newer games boast more content than the older MMOs its really not all that much more. WoW might have had a ton more content than a game like EQ did when both games were just launched, but the thing is the content in WoW is over so quick you hardly remember it. In older games you had dungeons that, even with multiple groups in there, could last several levels. Dungeons in todays games last about 10-15 minutes tops (20-25 if you set them to 'Heroic').
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Only way to bring back old school back is to improve on and expand on what made those features great for so many older players and entice newer players in giving those titles a shot, as the market is saturated with clones of that other game, or games that rely too heavily on instancing and cash shops, (looking at you Cryptic and SOE). Making MMOs back into MMORPG's is a big task, by making them less gear dependent, and removing classes and levels is one step, one -time legendary weapons and armor and bosses.
Solving the problems with open world housing , creating a in-depth crafting system along with resource gathering, minigames and social activities, non-combat professions, meaningful progression and alternate ways to progress, offline training, making FFA PVP work in a mainstream MMO (EVE does that well) and a number of other ways to improve on beloved mechanics of old.
Originally posted by JthX Why are you the only person here making an arguement out of a thread of peoples personal feelings? lol, and trying to get all technical for no reason. dude, this is a disscussion about people who would like to see some old school features come back or not. and how they feel just in general about mmos. calm down and go argue on a different thread thats asking for it.
Welcome to a forum, where everyone doesn't agree with you. You're going to get all types and if you didn't want to debate with me, then why single me out. We're not all going to sit here and be like "yeah yeah vote +1". I disagree and here are my reasons.
My posts are written in pretty plain english and its not really technical. I point out people look back at the old games because MMO's were a new thing and a big deal to people looking to share their RPG experiences with others. We live in a time where it has progressed and now the simple concept of MMO isn't new anymore and it moved on, even the old games moved on. Some for better, others for worse.
Again, in the grand scheme of things, what features do not exist in todays current MMO's that existed in older MMO's? Was it lost in a great catastrophe and buried with the dinosaurs? I cannot think of a single one and I challenge others to try and find something that might truyl have been lost.
Er... after reading this I have a strong feeling you never played old MMORPGs.
There were MANY MMOs back then, probably just as many "popular" ones as there are today, if not more. Whats more, each one was DIFFERENT from one another in more than just superficial ways. Sure, today we have AoC, LotRO, and WoW, but they are all fundamentally the exact same game with the exact same focus.
Another thing, most MMOs from back then had MORE content and MORE to do than modern MMOs, so I don't know what you mean by good features being "have my own character and fighting monsters". Modern MMOs are so far beyond compared to some of the advanced features in those old MMOs.
The good features were the lack of instances, the open world, the many more choices, virtual world style, rather than a series of mini games, sandbox style, more heavy focus on community interacting and social aspects. Also, the lack of maps was a huge plus for immersion, in my opinion.
A much better response especially in the bold. In regards to the bold, you merely list off a list of themeparks then say sandboxes don't exist today. Maybe not exactly in the Ultima Online sense, but what do you call EVE Online, Darkfall and Mortal Online?
I can that, one MMO that was made over 5-6 years ago, one that is just struggling to rise above the water, and another one that is entirely broken.
The list is short, and sad. It's not even just the fact that there are no sandboxes, but almost all oldschool MMOs had a semi sandbox nature, because the games weren't linear, there aren't any of those anymore either. All AAA MMOs are linear WoW clones. And its tiring.
I don't want old school to come back, but I would like to see some abandoned features being incorporated into existing and future games. I miss having a house that people could just randomly bumble into and I miss crafting being the backbone of the economy. I miss non-combat classes and gameplay that isn't driven by the pursuit of phat lewt.
I don't miss empty worlds with nothing to do, unresponsive combat or camp grinding. I don't lament the loss of trains, forced grouping, permadeath, XP loss or excessive downtime.
Instead of wishing for the old school to return, I'd prefer to hope that the next generation incorporates the strongest elements of both current AND old school MMOs.
Most old MMOs didn't have unresponsive combat, combat hasn't changed in MMOS since... ever. Until Darkfall.
Camp grinding is far more entertaining following yellow brick road quests that have absolutely no point other than to dole out generic gear and money, running back and forth from linear hub city to the next. I'd much rather explore a dungeon for the sake of exploring it.
Forced grouping almost never existed. Grouping was simply faster than soloing, something that desperately needs to be brought back.
There was never permadeath.
Xp loss was a good thing, or at least some form of death penalty, or else dying is entirely trivial and you have NOTHING invested in your character.
And lastly, down time. Down time, like sitting for 20 seconds between fights, or even just alternate activities to do, like crafting, fishing and other things. It allowed for two things, socializing between fights and TALKING to other people, and gave you an incentive to group with others, and made each combat actual have some weight to it.
Why are you the only person here making an arguement out of a thread of peoples personal feelings? lol, and trying to get all technical for no reason. dude, this is a disscussion about people who would like to see some old school features come back or not. and how they feel just in general about mmos. calm down and go argue on a different thread thats asking for it.
Welcome to a forum, where everyone doesn't agree with you. You're going to get all types and if you didn't want to debate with me, then why single me out. We're not all going to sit here and be like "yeah yeah vote +1". I disagree and here are my reasons.
My posts are written in pretty plain english and its not really technical. I point out people look back at the old games because MMO's were a new thing and a big deal to people looking to share their RPG experiences with others. We live in a time where it has progressed and now the simple concept of MMO isn't new anymore and it moved on, even the old games moved on. Some for better, others for worse.
Again, in the grand scheme of things, what features do not exist in todays current MMO's that existed in older MMO's? Was it lost in a great catastrophe and buried with the dinosaurs? I cannot think of a single one and I challenge others to try and find something that might truyl have been lost.
Welcome to the forum where everyone isn't going to agree with me? What's to agree or disagree about? I asked a question of peoples feelings. How is that something to disagre with? If you don't feel that there is any good qualitys in older mmos just say that and end of discussion. Also this thread wasen't about how i felt. It was about me seeing how other people felt. So why do i have to explain anything or "prove points". Well since you are so presistent about it.
1) I think they need to bring back a more "Lively World" style play. Which would truely make the game a MMO
2) The abiltiy to build a house in the Open world. Which like in UO created a player drivin enviroment.
3) less gear dependent. More about skill
4) Jobs having more meaning. Jobs being truely a nessesity to have.
5) World bosses
Anyways those are things i would love to see in a MMO.
Most old MMOs didn't have unresponsive combat, combat hasn't changed in MMOS since... ever. Until Darkfall.
Camp grinding is far more entertaining following yellow brick road quests that have absolutely no point other than to dole out generic gear and money, running back and forth from linear hub city to the next. I'd much rather explore a dungeon for the sake of exploring it.
Forced grouping almost never existed. Grouping was simply faster than soloing, something that desperately needs to be brought back.
There was never permadeath.
Xp loss was a good thing, or at least some form of death penalty, or else dying is entirely trivial and you have NOTHING invested in your character.
And lastly, down time. Down time, like sitting for 20 seconds between fights, or even just alternate activities to do, like crafting, fishing and other things. It allowed for two things, socializing between fights and TALKING to other people, and gave you an incentive to group with others, and made each combat actual have some weight to it.
Much of what you've said here is 100% dependant on preferences.
Camp grinding, forced grouping, XP loss and down time are just things that one either likes or dislikes. It's an impossible thing to debate. You'll never convince someone that their preferences are "wrong".
Permadeath did exist. There was an Everquest permadeath server, SWG had it for Jedi, and I believe that Hellgate London had it too, though I didn't play the game so can't confirm.
Regarding MMO combat, I disagree that it has never changed. My old school experience was mainly with the sandboxes, UO and SWG. I remember combat in those two games as being little more than auto-attack with perhaps one or two abilities to activate. Very different to modern MMOs that have scores of offensive, defensive and reactionary abilities and cooldowns.
Welcome to the forum where everyone isn't going to agree with me? What's to agree or disagree about? I asked a question of peoples feelings. How is that something to disagre with? If you don't feel that there is any good qualitys in older mmos just say that and end of discussion. Also this thread wasen't about how i felt. It was about me seeing how other people felt. So why do i have to explain anything or "prove points". Well since you are so presistent about it. 1) I think they need to bring back a more "Lively World" style play. Which would truely make the game a MMO 2) The abiltiy to build a house in the Open world. Which like in UO created a player drivin enviroment. 3) less gear dependent. More about skill 4) Jobs having more meaning. Jobs being truely a nessesity to have. 5) World bosses Anyways those are things i would love to see in a MMO.
I disagree with the fact that there isn't anything from back in the day of MMO's. All the good parts were kept, the crappy parts were improved or thrown out and the genre moved on. Lively World is subjective and a whole other topic of what would make a "Lively World", which would be specific from person to person.
Housing, it was cool, but not missed personally. I cannot think of any books where adventurers (in the books and movies) lived in a permanent settlement so I don't feel I'm missing much, if any, immersion on that.
I'll agree, even though gear was important back then, (you needed GM armor sets, I didn't know anyone that accepted anything less unless they were new to the game) but now its a focal point.
Skill is subjctive, what is skill, you'll get hundreds of definitions from everybody.
Not sure what yuo mean by jobs, if you're referring to non-combat professions or an equally deep experience on non-combat activities, then I can agree with that, but I don't know any games from the past that really had a deep crafting system or deep economy. The only online game I feel does non-combat real wwell is a current game, EVE Online. Pre-NGE Star Wars was great, but was not at the level EVE is now so its almost safe to say, EVE Online evolved that feature.
Most old MMOs didn't have unresponsive combat, combat hasn't changed in MMOS since... ever. Until Darkfall.
Camp grinding is far more entertaining following yellow brick road quests that have absolutely no point other than to dole out generic gear and money, running back and forth from linear hub city to the next. I'd much rather explore a dungeon for the sake of exploring it.
Forced grouping almost never existed. Grouping was simply faster than soloing, something that desperately needs to be brought back.
There was never permadeath.
Xp loss was a good thing, or at least some form of death penalty, or else dying is entirely trivial and you have NOTHING invested in your character.
And lastly, down time. Down time, like sitting for 20 seconds between fights, or even just alternate activities to do, like crafting, fishing and other things. It allowed for two things, socializing between fights and TALKING to other people, and gave you an incentive to group with others, and made each combat actual have some weight to it.
Much of what you've said here is 100% dependant on preferences.
Camp grinding, forced grouping, XP loss and down time are just things that one either likes or dislikes. It's an impossible thing to debate. You'll never convince someone that their preferences are "wrong".
Permadeath did exist. There was an Everquest permadeath server, SWG had it for Jedi, and I believe that Hellgate London had it too, though I didn't play the game so can't confirm.
Regarding MMO combat, I disagree that it has never changed. My old school experience was mainly with the sandboxes, UO and SWG. I remember combat in those two games as being little more than auto-attack with perhaps one or two abilities to activate. Very different to modern MMOs that have scores of offensive, defensive and reactionary abilities and cooldowns.
The problem with UO may have been because that was the FIRST MMORPG. Things were fairly primitive then. But even so, there was a large list of spells and reaction time was so important many people would rebind their keys and color them according to each spell. The MMOs I played (DAoC) had a far more complex battle system than most modern MMOs, and true reactionary combat. SWG I can't really comment on.
Also, having ONE server as a permadeath option does not make it "oldschool" because no other MMOs I was aware of had that feature. And it was a feature in SWG because Jedi were overpowered.
There wasn't FORCED grouping in the games I mentioned, grouping was ENCOURAGED, you had the option to solo just as well, but grouping was more benefitial, as it always should be. Down time, I think most people, so long as it wasn't over the top (everquest) wasn't a bad thing. Because again, good group construction mitigated it, and down time itself, was a good way to break up constant fighting, making burnout harder, and giving more time to be social.
The death penalty issue really depends on what you want in a game. If you just want a simple little "game" like WoW, then no death penalty fits. But if you want a complex virtual world, a death penalty really pulls you in.
If your sign up date is true and you haven't been here until just recently there are many people on this site who would like to see some of the older features/mechanics from the "old games" get an update and make a comeback. Topics like this get started all the time here. Be warned there are a few very vocal people who will most likely jump in this thread and basically tell you those traits will never be in a game again, that you need to "get over it", and take other very, very thinly veiled shots at you for even suggesting it. They basically love the current crop and don't there to be any other choice of gameplay is what I've come to believe. Oh, they'll try to tell you about "numbers" and "what makes a success and what is "niche" and what is not" but they have no more hard factual data than anyone else (including us that say there is a market).
So, just ignore them and keep on being vocal about an appreciation for that type of play. Afterall, according to the aformentioned people only me and like 10 other people on this board were the only ones who liked those games, flaws and all. If you are truly new to the site, well, one less straw in their theory, lol.
And those people will be right. There is a reason why old schools is OLD.
If you want some game with "featuers" like long down-time and take-a-number and camp for hours ... don't get your hopes up. They won't be back.
Thats why you have now hundreds of wow like games and soon also transfer to consoles and even dumb down more and the dead mmo genre is even more dead:(
I dont say i want to see UO newstyle, i rather have the superior Asherons call-Darktide pvp old skool mmo back in todays 3d grafhic style with some new tweaks.
Just for fun ive try allods online to see what it is, as it seems to be a wow clone, man that game sucks what a load of crap, that game just terible its even worse then wow:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
My first MMO ever was runescape classic, so I never played original Everquest, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot or Ultima Online, but I REALLY would like to try any of these if they had decent population.
My first MMO ever was runescape classic, so I never played original Everquest, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot or Ultima Online, but I REALLY would like to try any of these if they had decent population.
Even if they had decent populations today, most of them have changed their features so drastically that they do no resemble the games many of us want.
Unfortunately massive multiplayer means whatever the gaming company can get away with. There is usually some criticism of that phrase being used, which is ignored and on to launch they go.
Unfortunately massive multiplayer means whatever the gaming company can get away with. There is usually some criticism of that phrase being used, which is ignored and on to launch they go.
The worst part is that they have the masses tricked into believing that this is "progression".
Comments
I agree with some others here. MMO, to me, is massive multiplayer. Its not massive multiplayer if stuff is instanced. Then its just Diablo reloaded.
Besides, Vanguard was a great attempt at an old style MMORPG again. Not exactly UO style but then again, I'm not into UO style myself much.
Anyway, there where many classes, many races, huge seamless game world with almost no instances (except for a fixed number of copies of the great raid dungeon Ancient Port Warehouse).. and above all, CHALLENGE. Maybe still not enough of it, and too much of it only in the endgame. And too fast leveling, sadly. Anyway it was better than most other MMOs, from what people kept telling me (I cant do the comparison myself, I always stayed away from WoW and the like).
Additionally the many experimental features, such as diplomacy. Crafting was maybe not as good as SWG, but already very complex.
Man, conceptionally Vanguard just rocks so hard.
Another reason why it was a huge loss for the MMO community altogether Vanguard failed. Had it succeeded, many people would have been able to appreciate such features. Sigh.
I definitely dont want the "good old passive healbot healers" back. They are everywhere in modern games too, so I dont see whats especiall "old school" about them either. I dont think I'll play a game where I'll be that passive again. Vanguard killed that one for me.
And you're wrong. A priest is a fearsome opponent in combat, because they can heal themselves. I consider it only logical that they will be superior to a pure tank class with low damage output like a warrior in direct 1vs1 PvP.
Why a brain and thoughts if we can just throw around another game name that hasnt been released yet ?
Yes, why ?
Er... after reading this I have a strong feeling you never played old MMORPGs.
There were MANY MMOs back then, probably just as many "popular" ones as there are today, if not more. Whats more, each one was DIFFERENT from one another in more than just superficial ways. Sure, today we have AoC, LotRO, and WoW, but they are all fundamentally the exact same game with the exact same focus.
Another thing, most MMOs from back then had MORE content and MORE to do than modern MMOs, so I don't know what you mean by good features being "have my own character and fighting monsters". Modern MMOs are so far beyond compared to some of the advanced features in those old MMOs.
The good features were the lack of instances, the open world, the many more choices, virtual world style, rather than a series of mini games, sandbox style, more heavy focus on community interacting and social aspects. Also, the lack of maps was a huge plus for immersion, in my opinion.
Old are new, people will still find something to complain about. Personally past is past. Move on and find something else to do already.
When did you start playing "old school" MMO's. World Of Warcraft?
Yes, I'm just going to roll over and accept that my favorite genre of game has entirely changed style of gameplay, focus, and community, and be happy about it :P
When people like something, they don't just "forget about it". There are a great many people that feel the same way we do, enough for a profitable game (at least 300,000 people bought Vanguard in the first week), we're just waiting for a company to do so.
When you're being sold Cash Shop Online Adventures in a few years, we'll be laughing telling you to move on.
Why are you the only person here making an arguement out of a thread of peoples personal feelings? lol, and trying to get all technical for no reason. dude, this is a disscussion about people who would like to see some old school features come back or not. and how they feel just in general about mmos. calm down and go argue on a different thread thats asking for it.
So... you want WoW without instances?
"lack of direction" is what many people call... a sandbox. It's what oldschool MMOs were closer to. Can't have one without the other.
That is exactly true. Back in the days of UO and EQ, people played these games both because they didn't have a choice and because they didn't know any better. These were the games that put MMOs on the map, people accepted them as they were, warts and all, because they didn't have other, better games to compare them to, they didn't realize that these games were flawed because there weren't any unflawed games available.
Unfortunately, there are people who became convinced that simply because these games were first, they were also automatically best and they measure everything that's come after by the flawed standards of the first games on the market. It's like trying to gauge all video games by the standards of Pong. If you're going to hold Pong up as the ultimate game, then everything else, no matter how advanced, becomes inherently inferior.
Some people need to take a few giant sized steps backward and actually examine the games for what they actually are rather than what their nostalgia goggles have made them see all these years.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I believe SWG died because it tried to convert to WoW model through CU and NGE. Which caused biggest online gaming rage in MMORPG history.
Sadly Darkfall doesn't have too many sandbox features (yet) but it certainly is a fresh breath in this age of WoW clones.
A much better response especially in the bold. In regards to the bold, you merely list off a list of themeparks then say sandboxes don't exist today. Maybe not exactly in the Ultima Online sense, but what do you call EVE Online, Darkfall and Mortal Online? Yes I know the sandboxes list aer short in terms of new and current, but more are on the rise and its something thats acknowledged. Really when you look in the past, you could only count sandboxes on 1 hand yet alone the total amount of MMO's only on two (and maybe a foot or two).
With instancing, its just not practical to not utilize even a little bit of it. Back then, only thousands of players were into MMO's, yet alone even knew about the existence of MMO's, today we're in the millions. You have to be able to cater to them all in as equal of a game experience as possible.
I wouldn't say games back then catered too much to the social aspects/community parts of the game whereas there was such a large following of players that were all into the game more or less equally. The amount of interest amongst each player considered individually varies greatly today and people organized themselves much better back then, but again, we're dealing with a much larger population. I think there's more tools today that imlpement this better albeit things like instant teleports to instances and waiting queus does destroy some bits of this. I can't think of many features UO or DAoC had that really implemented many social features that does not exist today.
PS: I don't know where you guys get these judgements from especially without asserting your own history. It's a weak form of discrediting the poster without getting to teh actual point.
I don't want old school to come back, but I would like to see some abandoned features being incorporated into existing and future games. I miss having a house that people could just randomly bumble into and I miss crafting being the backbone of the economy. I miss non-combat classes and gameplay that isn't driven by the pursuit of phat lewt.
I don't miss empty worlds with nothing to do, unresponsive combat or camp grinding. I don't lament the loss of trains, forced grouping, permadeath, XP loss or excessive downtime.
Instead of wishing for the old school to return, I'd prefer to hope that the next generation incorporates the strongest elements of both current AND old school MMOs.
^This,
Older MMOs were about playing, socializing, and just exploring a virtual world. There wasn't this rush to end game crap that we have today. There was no real need to power through the game because end game was always going to be there. Today its all about "Who got to cap first" and "Which guild got server first". Back then people didn't give a crap about that.
Also in older MMOs you had people who were willing to talk with others and help people just for the heck of it. People would actually take the time to help random low level players clear a camp or hold off high level NPCs to help someone complete their class quests. In turn the people they helped would go on to do the say, paying it forward.
Sadly in newer games you dont have that. You can have several people waiting for a mob to spawn for a quest update and none of them will group up, instead they will try to out DPS each other in hopes of being the one who gets the kill. People act like dicks in new games because they can get away with it. In older MMOs your name was linked to your reputation. Act like a dick and good luck getting anywhere. Today people hide behind name changes and server transfers.
Exploration. Older MMOs had a sense of exploration, where you could head off in any direction and possibly find something. NPCs would often hint at some strange temple to the south or the ruins of a castle forgotten to time in the north. New games the NPC tells you where it is, how to get there and even marks the path to this 'Lost Temple' on your map.
Content. While newer games boast more content than the older MMOs its really not all that much more. WoW might have had a ton more content than a game like EQ did when both games were just launched, but the thing is the content in WoW is over so quick you hardly remember it. In older games you had dungeons that, even with multiple groups in there, could last several levels. Dungeons in todays games last about 10-15 minutes tops (20-25 if you set them to 'Heroic').
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Only way to bring back old school back is to improve on and expand on what made those features great for so many older players and entice newer players in giving those titles a shot, as the market is saturated with clones of that other game, or games that rely too heavily on instancing and cash shops, (looking at you Cryptic and SOE). Making MMOs back into MMORPG's is a big task, by making them less gear dependent, and removing classes and levels is one step, one -time legendary weapons and armor and bosses.
Solving the problems with open world housing , creating a in-depth crafting system along with resource gathering, minigames and social activities, non-combat professions, meaningful progression and alternate ways to progress, offline training, making FFA PVP work in a mainstream MMO (EVE does that well) and a number of other ways to improve on beloved mechanics of old.
Welcome to a forum, where everyone doesn't agree with you. You're going to get all types and if you didn't want to debate with me, then why single me out. We're not all going to sit here and be like "yeah yeah vote +1". I disagree and here are my reasons.
My posts are written in pretty plain english and its not really technical. I point out people look back at the old games because MMO's were a new thing and a big deal to people looking to share their RPG experiences with others. We live in a time where it has progressed and now the simple concept of MMO isn't new anymore and it moved on, even the old games moved on. Some for better, others for worse.
Again, in the grand scheme of things, what features do not exist in todays current MMO's that existed in older MMO's? Was it lost in a great catastrophe and buried with the dinosaurs? I cannot think of a single one and I challenge others to try and find something that might truyl have been lost.
I can that, one MMO that was made over 5-6 years ago, one that is just struggling to rise above the water, and another one that is entirely broken.
The list is short, and sad. It's not even just the fact that there are no sandboxes, but almost all oldschool MMOs had a semi sandbox nature, because the games weren't linear, there aren't any of those anymore either. All AAA MMOs are linear WoW clones. And its tiring.
Most old MMOs didn't have unresponsive combat, combat hasn't changed in MMOS since... ever. Until Darkfall.
Camp grinding is far more entertaining following yellow brick road quests that have absolutely no point other than to dole out generic gear and money, running back and forth from linear hub city to the next. I'd much rather explore a dungeon for the sake of exploring it.
Forced grouping almost never existed. Grouping was simply faster than soloing, something that desperately needs to be brought back.
There was never permadeath.
Xp loss was a good thing, or at least some form of death penalty, or else dying is entirely trivial and you have NOTHING invested in your character.
And lastly, down time. Down time, like sitting for 20 seconds between fights, or even just alternate activities to do, like crafting, fishing and other things. It allowed for two things, socializing between fights and TALKING to other people, and gave you an incentive to group with others, and made each combat actual have some weight to it.
Welcome to the forum where everyone isn't going to agree with me? What's to agree or disagree about? I asked a question of peoples feelings. How is that something to disagre with? If you don't feel that there is any good qualitys in older mmos just say that and end of discussion. Also this thread wasen't about how i felt. It was about me seeing how other people felt. So why do i have to explain anything or "prove points". Well since you are so presistent about it.
1) I think they need to bring back a more "Lively World" style play. Which would truely make the game a MMO
2) The abiltiy to build a house in the Open world. Which like in UO created a player drivin enviroment.
3) less gear dependent. More about skill
4) Jobs having more meaning. Jobs being truely a nessesity to have.
5) World bosses
Anyways those are things i would love to see in a MMO.
Much of what you've said here is 100% dependant on preferences.
Camp grinding, forced grouping, XP loss and down time are just things that one either likes or dislikes. It's an impossible thing to debate. You'll never convince someone that their preferences are "wrong".
Permadeath did exist. There was an Everquest permadeath server, SWG had it for Jedi, and I believe that Hellgate London had it too, though I didn't play the game so can't confirm.
Regarding MMO combat, I disagree that it has never changed. My old school experience was mainly with the sandboxes, UO and SWG. I remember combat in those two games as being little more than auto-attack with perhaps one or two abilities to activate. Very different to modern MMOs that have scores of offensive, defensive and reactionary abilities and cooldowns.
I disagree with the fact that there isn't anything from back in the day of MMO's. All the good parts were kept, the crappy parts were improved or thrown out and the genre moved on.
Lively World is subjective and a whole other topic of what would make a "Lively World", which would be specific from person to person.
Housing, it was cool, but not missed personally. I cannot think of any books where adventurers (in the books and movies) lived in a permanent settlement so I don't feel I'm missing much, if any, immersion on that.
I'll agree, even though gear was important back then, (you needed GM armor sets, I didn't know anyone that accepted anything less unless they were new to the game) but now its a focal point.
Skill is subjctive, what is skill, you'll get hundreds of definitions from everybody.
Not sure what yuo mean by jobs, if you're referring to non-combat professions or an equally deep experience on non-combat activities, then I can agree with that, but I don't know any games from the past that really had a deep crafting system or deep economy. The only online game I feel does non-combat real wwell is a current game, EVE Online. Pre-NGE Star Wars was great, but was not at the level EVE is now so its almost safe to say, EVE Online evolved that feature.
The problem with UO may have been because that was the FIRST MMORPG. Things were fairly primitive then. But even so, there was a large list of spells and reaction time was so important many people would rebind their keys and color them according to each spell. The MMOs I played (DAoC) had a far more complex battle system than most modern MMOs, and true reactionary combat. SWG I can't really comment on.
Also, having ONE server as a permadeath option does not make it "oldschool" because no other MMOs I was aware of had that feature. And it was a feature in SWG because Jedi were overpowered.
There wasn't FORCED grouping in the games I mentioned, grouping was ENCOURAGED, you had the option to solo just as well, but grouping was more benefitial, as it always should be. Down time, I think most people, so long as it wasn't over the top (everquest) wasn't a bad thing. Because again, good group construction mitigated it, and down time itself, was a good way to break up constant fighting, making burnout harder, and giving more time to be social.
The death penalty issue really depends on what you want in a game. If you just want a simple little "game" like WoW, then no death penalty fits. But if you want a complex virtual world, a death penalty really pulls you in.
All I want is my Shadowbane - well, a Shadowbane that actually runs properly.
Thats why you have now hundreds of wow like games and soon also transfer to consoles and even dumb down more and the dead mmo genre is even more dead:(
I dont say i want to see UO newstyle, i rather have the superior Asherons call-Darktide pvp old skool mmo back in todays 3d grafhic style with some new tweaks.
Just for fun ive try allods online to see what it is, as it seems to be a wow clone, man that game sucks what a load of crap, that game just terible its even worse then wow:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
My first MMO ever was runescape classic, so I never played original Everquest, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot or Ultima Online, but I REALLY would like to try any of these if they had decent population.
Even if they had decent populations today, most of them have changed their features so drastically that they do no resemble the games many of us want.
Unfortunately massive multiplayer means whatever the gaming company can get away with. There is usually some criticism of that phrase being used, which is ignored and on to launch they go.
The worst part is that they have the masses tricked into believing that this is "progression".