2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark: a review full of sarcasms.
Sorry you missed it, I'll be gentler next time
Sounded was more like an exaggeration to me.
ex·ag·ger·ate
–verb (used with object)
1. to magnify beyond the limits of truth; overstate; represent disproportionately: to exaggerate the difficulties of a situation.
They quite often go hand in hand.
In any event, I am still not getting an answer as to why noone is tapping this market if it is so underserved..
If an oldschool MMO is made, its going to be a labor of love from a smaller company, like Aventurine.
Exactly, and we all see how well that went. (Irony)
I guess we can possibly agree on the industry has moved on from offering challenging games to offering fun games because the market changed. Don't take the destinctions one hundre per cent literally, but more as an indication of how the focused shifted.
Though I have no proof, I am certain that the average player today plays far less than 8 years ago, and games sped up progression to suit the influx of these more casual (maybe also richer) players. The speeding up was done by adding bonus (e.g. rested xp boost) and removing malus (e.g. corpse run), both of which have pissed off old school players but will not be changed. Because more players came in diversity increased and the sense of community decreased, again this is a non-reversible process.
The reason old school died, and will remain dead, is due to, amongs many others, these factors. There were some major hitters in the old school games, but they all took major hits when WoW released - there's a reasen we always speak of them in past tense.
WoW type games are clearly what the vast majority of players wants, and WoW type games are what they will be served. The massive success of WoW has proven this beyond any need for market research evidence.
Great post. Totally agree with you! I just hope that someday a competent developer studio and a publisher that is lead by someone who is more an artist than a buisnessman will meet and prove us all wrong. It just can't be that there are only moneyhungry, greedy publishers.. i don't want to accept that and I never will!
You don't need a crystal ball. We all know where MMO's are going and how they are. I mean you can complain and whine all you want about the old school days coming back, we all know companies are going for the money. I'm not saying I didn't like the old-school days, there is just a point when things come to an end and you must move on.
Just like we should all stop whining about cash shops and RMT. They are the future of MMOs and we should just shut up and enjoy it.
You don't need a crystal ball. We all know where MMO's are going and how they are. I mean you can complain and whine all you want about the old school days coming back, we all know companies are going for the money. I'm not saying I didn't like the old-school days, there is just a point when things come to an end and you must move on.
Just like we should all stop whining about cash shops and RMT. They are the future of MMOs and we should just shut up and enjoy it.
MMORPG gamers are far too willing to politely bend over whenever they are asked. It's getting past the point of being sad, it's getting downright ugly.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
You don't need a crystal ball. We all know where MMO's are going and how they are. I mean you can complain and whine all you want about the old school days coming back, we all know companies are going for the money. I'm not saying I didn't like the old-school days, there is just a point when things come to an end and you must move on.
Just like we should all stop whining about cash shops and RMT. They are the future of MMOs and we should just shut up and enjoy it.
Sorta. Shut up and accept it if it becomes the business model. Otherwise don't accept it and leave..
I'm sure someone, somewhere, at some point whined when games went from 2D to 3D and claimed 2D was clearly superior and 'old school' should be brought back. As I cannot recall seeing a post about it I guess they eventually accepted it or left...
You don't need a crystal ball. We all know where MMO's are going and how they are. I mean you can complain and whine all you want about the old school days coming back, we all know companies are going for the money. I'm not saying I didn't like the old-school days, there is just a point when things come to an end and you must move on.
Just like we should all stop whining about cash shops and RMT. They are the future of MMOs and we should just shut up and enjoy it.
Sorta. Shut up and accept it if it becomes the business model. Otherwise don't accept it and leave..
I'm sure someone, somewhere, at some point whined when games went from 2D to 3D and claimed 2D was clearly superior and 'old school' should be brought back. As I cannot recall seeing a post about it I guess they eventually accepted it or left...
Ya, there was quite the uproar when 3D games started becoming popular. I have a couple friends who still can't accept what happened in those dark days.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Why do they need to 'come back' if they are still here and playable? Re-sub to UO or DAoC or EQ or whatever you think the 'old school' is.
Don't want to? It's just not the same anymore? If you don't want to sub to UO or EQ or whatever, than obviously you too have a reason why the 'old' school isn't worth it anymore.
This argument is silly to me.
You calling this an argument is silly.
This isn't about missing older titles but not wanting to re-sub to one. Most people, like myself, i think just miss some of the qualitys older titles offered but would like to see those values (ideas or w/e) Implamented into a newer, more up to date game.
Why don't you want to re-sub to one? If it has the qualities and ideas you like.......what features about those games do you feel need updating?
List which 'old school' features made you quit those games, and then list which 'old school' features you want to see implemented in future games. Now if everyone did that, and compared the lists, I believe we would see some cross over, but for the majority we would see that all of our opinions wildly differ.
Just as an example, if a new game came out with a similar death penalty to EQ - I wouldn't play it. Although I know from these forums, many would define a harsh death penalty as 'a must'. Both of us lament the passing of EQ, but we wouldn't agree on the features which should be carried on.
I think it can be cathardic to lament about the passing of an era, but to think 'the good ol' days' can come back....well I just don't feel like it will pan out.
That's why I recommend, if you want that 'old school' feeling, play an old school game. You simply cannot gaurentee that you will get that 'feeling' just because a game has included those features. A games entertainment value and the 'feel' you get from a game come from how well features are implemented, not what the feature is, in my opinion.
Devs could gaurentee you old school features, they cannot gaurentee that implementing them will give you the same feeling you got in your first year of UO. In reality, they may just make you realize why you don't sub to UO ever again.
But while I called the 'argument' silly (which probably wasn't the best word choice), I appreciate that you personalized it to insult me directly.
I don't re-sub to one because old school games have one bad thing about them i don't care much for anymore. BAD Graphics. Also a very small population. And the fact they have also taken the poor path of following WoW like styles. Though Older games have (had)many great qualitys i would more then love to see brought back i also want those qualitys in an up to date game.
Who would like to see some of the old school MMO features come back to MMOs today? Does anyone even care?
I mean features like Ultima Online offered. I think nowadays MMOs are to instaned and not enough World play. Does anyone know, miss, or want to see a MMO make a livley world where you are free to do w/e and create your own story?
How does everyone else feel about MMOs today and how the used to be? Are you happy with how they are or would you like to see them good ol' features come back to life?
Get over it, games evolve, people change. These "old-school" days are over. You are now the minority, and as soon as you realize these old school days are over, the quicker we can all move on to the next best thing. Soon enough you guys will be whining about how you miss the "old school" days which are right now. You just have to accept change, or don't play th new generation of MMO's....
Wow, that's a horrible philosphy. I think you don't really understand AT ALL what you're talking about. The current modern MMOs are basically an entirely new genre of MMORPG from the ones 600k of us all originally knew. Can you blame us for missing such a deep and unique experience that no other genre can provide? There's nothing else to move on to. Why is it so offensive that a bunch of people are waiting for a company to make a good game again?
Next time you don't like a game, we'll laugh and tell you to suck it up and move on, or conform.
Who would like to see some of the old school MMO features come back to MMOs today? Does anyone even care?
I mean features like Ultima Online offered. I think nowadays MMOs are to instaned and not enough World play. Does anyone know, miss, or want to see a MMO make a livley world where you are free to do w/e and create your own story?
How does everyone else feel about MMOs today and how the used to be? Are you happy with how they are or would you like to see them good ol' features come back to life?
Get over it, games evolve, people change. These "old-school" days are over. You are now the minority, and as soon as you realize these old school days are over, the quicker we can all move on to the next best thing. Soon enough you guys will be whining about how you miss the "old school" days which are right now. You just have to accept change, or don't play th new generation of MMO's....
And where is the argument in your" abolish your opinion and values and adapt yourself to the majority"-Post? I just dont get it. And could you please explain why I do have to accept things that I think are wrong just because they are that way at the moment? I can only accept that they are that way but I will still dissent that they should be like they are at the moment.
And where do I get that crystal ball from? Being able to see how things will be 'soon' must be great... btw have you heared that people use personal attacks when they run out of arguments or never had any?
Just give us factual arguments instead of personal attacks. (attacks might be a bit harsh but i am not a native speaker and do not know how to express myself atm)
You don't need a crystal ball. We all know where MMORPGs are going and how they are. I mean you can complain and whine all you want about the old school days coming back, we all know companies are going for the money. I'm not saying I didn't like the old-school days, there is just a point when things come to an end and you must move on.
First of all I find it impolite that you are degrading our cricism as whining. Just stop your pesonal insults, mate.
But I agree with you that the mmorpgmarket will develop in a direction I don't like. But you still did not tell me why I have to accept it instead of fighting for my idea(l)s. Plus you said that we will be QQing about how games were today in the future. That has nothing to do with "We all know where MMORPGs are going and how they are". Even if things are getting worse from my point of view I will surely not tell how great WAR (which i am actually playing) was but tell how much that had already been there in games from the the 98 or 2001 wass lacking. So how do you know I will be QQing how great warhammer and lord of the rings online were?!
I just cannot stand your "accept that everything is shit and calm down" attitude. [although this is a bit out of context: this attitude has lead to terrible developments in the course of history] As long as I have the opinion that the actual mmorpgs do not please me I will tell it to others if they ask me about my opinion and the same goes for any other topic. And everybody should do that so that publishers see that there are still people willing to buy games with those features.
2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark: a review full of sarcasms.
Sorry you missed it, I'll be gentler next time
Sounded was more like an exaggeration to me.
ex·ag·ger·ate
–verb (used with object)
1. to magnify beyond the limits of truth; overstate; represent disproportionately: to exaggerate the difficulties of a situation.
They quite often go hand in hand.
In any event, I am still not getting an answer as to why noone is tapping this market if it is so underserved..
If an oldschool MMO is made, its going to be a labor of love from a smaller company, like Aventurine.
Exactly, and we all see how well that went. (Irony)
Uhhh, they've released two expansions, opened a new server, hired new developers, started putting boxes on shelves, and moved into a bigger office building?
Aka, a total success? Not sure what point you're trying to argue buddy.
As for "majority of players want WoW", we have seen this is wrong, as the WoW clones have a much higher failure rate than oldschool MMOs. Look at the horrible state AoC and WAR are in. They're so deep in dept, laying people off left and right. Developers need to learn people don't want WoW, WoW players want WoW, and they already have it. They are a non factor in the MMO industry. People want something different, or stuff maybe a little deep, like the old days. The people making GW2 realize this.
You don't need a crystal ball. We all know where MMO's are going and how they are. I mean you can complain and whine all you want about the old school days coming back, we all know companies are going for the money. I'm not saying I didn't like the old-school days, there is just a point when things come to an end and you must move on.
Just like we should all stop whining about cash shops and RMT. They are the future of MMOs and we should just shut up and enjoy it.
Sorta. Shut up and accept it if it becomes the business model. Otherwise don't accept it and leave..
I'm sure someone, somewhere, at some point whined when games went from 2D to 3D and claimed 2D was clearly superior and 'old school' should be brought back. As I cannot recall seeing a post about it I guess they eventually accepted it or left...
No need for destroying a good discussion with your stupid conclusions still lacking any real proof. Wish people would just stop basing the "game that shouldn't be named success" on gameplay, its so much more:
- flatrates increased, internet speed also
- Blizzard had a huge amount of money and a loyal fanbase
- worked a combined of 6 years on this game
The game isn't the example its an exception. Its obvious you're having no clue what you're talking about. Proof? Mentioning, whiners should create their own game...You should just move on and flame in another thread basically in the game that shouldn't be named forums there are tons of players sharing your mindset.
========
There seem to be 3 types of MMO players. The oldschool vets. The WoW players (they don't play MMos, they play WoW, and always will), and the casuals who are usually older and just want to relax, or have been bred on WoW and never experienced anything else. The oldschool vets are not a small number, the WoW players throw most things off scale, but they are almost complete non factor, because they'll never leave WoW.
========
Hits the nail on the head. Once companies are getting used to this fact we'll see oldschool features again. Aion is #2 and has some real nice oldschool features: slower leveling, group villages, better death penalty (you're losing ep and can only buy a small amount back). I'm sure FFXI could become our savior easily.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
"Ya, there was quite the uproar when 3D games started becoming popular. I have a couple friends who still can't accept what happened in those dark days."
Yeah lets just talk about graphics and voxels and pixels and cars and electronic washing mashines and the evolution of guitarmusic due to the invention of e-guitars. That is really what this thread is about....tbh I just heared people making great music on acoustic guitars for the people who still prefer acoustic over electronic. Did you get the analogy?
Now please stop leading this thread into absurd directions and don't go on destroying it...
You destroyed it anyways! So let us just stare at the ruins saying how beautiful they were and do not take them away from us too...
Who would like to see some of the old school MMO features come back to MMOs today? Does anyone even care?
I mean features like Ultima Online offered. I think nowadays MMOs are to instaned and not enough World play. Does anyone know, miss, or want to see a MMO make a livley world where you are free to do w/e and create your own story?
How does everyone else feel about MMOs today and how the used to be? Are you happy with how they are or would you like to see them good ol' features come back to life?
I care. I definitely don't want 'old school' features making a come back.
2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark: a review full of sarcasms.
Sorry you missed it, I'll be gentler next time
Sounded was more like an exaggeration to me.
ex·ag·ger·ate
–verb (used with object)
1. to magnify beyond the limits of truth; overstate; represent disproportionately: to exaggerate the difficulties of a situation.
They quite often go hand in hand.
In any event, I am still not getting an answer as to why noone is tapping this market if it is so underserved..
If an oldschool MMO is made, its going to be a labor of love from a smaller company, like Aventurine.
Exactly, and we all see how well that went. (Irony)
Uhhh, they've released two expansions, opened a new server, hired new developers, started putting boxes on shelves, and moved into a bigger office building?
Aka, a total success? Not sure what point you're trying to argue buddy.
As for "majority of players want WoW", we have seen this is wrong, as the WoW clones have a much higher failure rate than oldschool MMOs. Look at the horrible state AoC and WAR are in. They're so deep in dept, laying people off left and right. Developers need to learn people don't want WoW, WoW players want WoW, and they already have it. They are a non factor in the MMO industry. People want something different, or stuff maybe a little deep, like the old days. The people making GW2 realize this.
If around 20-30k (correct me if I'm way off) players is a huge success then yes, DF is definately a huge success. But its still a very, very small niche compared to the size of the market. I don't think there is any definate answer as to why AoC and WAR "failed", but they both had a couple old school elements (FFA PvP and RvR, respectively) which may or may not have contributed. The basic truth is that most people want WoW, and play WoW. I guess we can conclude that it is very hard to steal players from WoW by emulating it, as proved by the previously mentioned games. However, until someone comes up with something better the best option will be to attempt to build a better WoW.
The next big thing may be a WoW clone, it may be something completely different, or it may be a revisit to old school. I put most faith in the former, secondly in the middle and very little in the latter.
(And to arrest your one claim: AoC/Funcom has some $30m and WAR/EA $1.8b in cash, and no debt.)
All i know is that if old school was still popular more companies would take interested in it. We can make all excuses we want and blame everything on WOW but... reality is staring us in face and we don't want to face it.
You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty -- Mahatma Gandhi
You don't need a crystal ball. We all know where MMO's are going and how they are. I mean you can complain and whine all you want about the old school days coming back, we all know companies are going for the money. I'm not saying I didn't like the old-school days, there is just a point when things come to an end and you must move on.
Just like we should all stop whining about cash shops and RMT. They are the future of MMOs and we should just shut up and enjoy it.
Sorta. Shut up and accept it if it becomes the business model. Otherwise don't accept it and leave..
I'm sure someone, somewhere, at some point whined when games went from 2D to 3D and claimed 2D was clearly superior and 'old school' should be brought back. As I cannot recall seeing a post about it I guess they eventually accepted it or left...
Personal insults and ad hominem argumentation aside, let me pick you post apart.
No need for destroying a good discussion with your stupid conclusions still lacking any real proof. I made a statement based on probability, which poster after me confirmed. Thus there was no need for actual proof and my 'stupid' conclusion obviously wasn't too far off the mark. Wish people would just stop basing the "game that shouldn't be named success" on gameplay, its so much more:
- flatrates increased, internet speed also
- Blizzard had a huge amount of money and a loyal fanbase
- worked a combined of 6 years on this game
Quite possible these are important factors. Also possible they don't factor in at all. I would refrain from making such claims without actually backing it up with proof, as you so succinctely claimed I skirted earlier.
Quite possiThe game isn't the example its an exception. Its obvious you're having no clue what you're talking about. Proof?
It's the highest grossing game in history. I would call that an example to follow. Companies usually try to copy well performing companies. For proof I'd suggest reading about Benchmarking.
Mentioning, whiners should create their own game...You should just move on and flame in another thread basically in the game that shouldn't be named forums there are tons of players sharing your mindset.
As I have already mentioned, if you believe there is an excellent market opportunity you should exploit it, and noone is stopping you but yourself. If you don't, and noone else does either, it's usually proof that there isn't one.
========
There seem to be 3 types of MMO players. The oldschool vets. The WoW players (they don't play MMos, they play WoW, and always will), and the casuals who are usually older and just want to relax, or have been bred on WoW and never experienced anything else. The oldschool vets are not a small number, the WoW players throw most things off scale, but they are almost complete non factor, because they'll never leave WoW.
========
Hits the nail on the head. Once companies are getting used to this fact we'll see oldschool features again. Aion is #2 and has some real nice oldschool features: slower leveling, group villages, better death penalty (you're losing ep and can only buy a small amount back). I'm sure FFXI could become our savior easily.
Since I never posted my opinion on the actual topic I will do it in a very short way now. I do not know if they have been in UO, EQ, AC or games from that time, but I want them:
I want:
-open seamless worlds, no instancing; but dungeons that adjust to the number of people.
-world bosses and people spontaneously gathering together to beat that giant dragon / people planning community raids with more than 90 people instead of only playing with your uber elite guild
-real quests you have to read and think about, without stupid questmarks on your map
-no map or maps that are black in places you never were and with very limited information. I want to ask others where I can find the dye merchant instead of searching my map for it.
- class diversity (45 classes in daoc...)
-a game that encourages grouping and socializing. in daoc you could also solo your way up to level 50 but it took way longer.
-that you can only get the best gear from enemies that can only be defeated with groups. so that rare drops are actually rare and something special. I never had dragon gear in DAoC because I never got lucky in dragon raids but that was no problem for me since I knew that these are extremely rare. Whenever someone had dragon gear I thought 'woahh.. that looks so cool. I want i too.' but I never thought 'make it easier so that I can get it too'
-possibility to get very good items by crafting them for those who do not like raiding.
-death penalties that hinder people from using death as quick travel. If I am deep in a dark dungeon I want to feel the thrill of being afraid of not making it out alive...
and many things more that don't come to my mind spontaneously
I do not want:
-people running around ignoring everything besides questmarks because that would cost them some time and they might reach cap level 20 seconds later as planned. In the good old days people actually responded to you when you asked them something. After coming back to mmorpg genre after a few years i got shocked how antisocial the society is. Many people ignore you asking them things or prefer soloing because it is quicker.. As if mmorpgs were about reaching level cap as quick as possible?!
-too harsh deathpenalties. The only way I would accept corpse runs would be if you could decide between doing the corpse run yourself or pay a good amount of money to NPCs which then give you your gear instantly. So you can get your stuff when there is noone to help you get your corpse.
-badly designed spawns with too less mobs. I'd also prefer non-static spawns and roaming mobs instead of the classic static spawns.
edit:
As I have already mentioned, if you believe there is an excellent market opportunity you should exploit it, and noone is stopping you but yourself. If you don't, and noone else does either, it's usually proof that there isn't one.
Ever took into consideration that we do not have the skills or money to do so?!? And what does 'no market' mean? To the established publisher "omfg, we cant get a trillion of dollars out of this" means no market. There is one, but publisher are only trying to be as succesfull as WoW.. and what about the figures at Vanguard launch? Surely there are people who are willing to buy a game like this.
I am a goddamn student who doesnt even have enough money to have his guitar repaired. If I ever win a lottery jackpot I will surely start my mmorpg publisher...
2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark: a review full of sarcasms.
Sorry you missed it, I'll be gentler next time
Sounded was more like an exaggeration to me.
ex·ag·ger·ate
–verb (used with object)
1. to magnify beyond the limits of truth; overstate; represent disproportionately: to exaggerate the difficulties of a situation.
They quite often go hand in hand.
In any event, I am still not getting an answer as to why noone is tapping this market if it is so underserved..
If an oldschool MMO is made, its going to be a labor of love from a smaller company, like Aventurine.
Exactly, and we all see how well that went. (Irony)
Uhhh, they've released two expansions, opened a new server, hired new developers, started putting boxes on shelves, and moved into a bigger office building?
Aka, a total success? Not sure what point you're trying to argue buddy.
As for "majority of players want WoW", we have seen this is wrong, as the WoW clones have a much higher failure rate than oldschool MMOs. Look at the horrible state AoC and WAR are in. They're so deep in dept, laying people off left and right. Developers need to learn people don't want WoW, WoW players want WoW, and they already have it. They are a non factor in the MMO industry. People want something different, or stuff maybe a little deep, like the old days. The people making GW2 realize this.
If around 20-30k (correct me if I'm way off) players is a huge success then yes, DF is definately a huge success. But its still a very, very small niche compared to the size of the market. I don't think there is any definate answer as to why AoC and WAR "failed", but they both had a couple old school elements (FFA PvP and RvR, respectively) which may or may not have contributed)
Again, FFA PvP isn't an oldschool thing, as every MMO has had it since about 1999 on special servers. And WAR's RvR was tacked on last minute, because of outcry from the old DAoC players, and thus, wasn't nearly as good as the old RvR, and led to many people leaving.
But thats another point entirely.
Yes, Darkfall is a success, because they made the game on a budget with 30 devs, so the amount of players they have now is pretty good for how much they spent. I'm not saying that all oldschool MMOs need to settle for that, as Darkfall is a niche of a niche of a niche. DAoC had up to 500k subs in its day.
About the only things I miss from the "old days" was the community back then and the level of openness those games had compared to some newer mmos.
Far as the community goes those days are gone for good. Although there are still plenty of players that are helpful and amicable. You just have to be a bit more selective and opt to ignore more folks or leave channels at times.
Far as the level of instancing in mmos? I don't hate it. Fact in some scenarios I find it has it's uses. Although it does seem to be taken to an extreme in some games that takes away from the immersion and seems to have unintended negative side effects on the community.
Outside of those two areas I don't miss the old school at all. I can think of a lot more negative aspects than I can positives from those days. As much as I enjoyed them, I find my gaming in mmoprgs now to be just as entertaining. Moreso actually besides the occasional "bleh" factor from a few releases such as CO, AoC, and STO. Warhammer was rather dissappointing too but it was fun as hell in the lower tiers least when it came to PvP.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
As I have already mentioned, if you believe there is an excellent market opportunity you should exploit it, and noone is stopping you but yourself. If you don't, and noone else does either, it's usually proof that there isn't one.
Ever took into consideration that we do not have the skills or money to do so?!? And what does 'no market' mean? To the established publisher "omfg, we cant get a trillion of dollars out of this" means no market. There is one, but publisher are only trying to be as succesfull as WoW.. and what about the figures at Vanguard launch? Surely there are people who are willing to buy a game like this.
I am a goddamn student who doesnt even have enough money to have his guitar repaired. If I ever win a lottery jackpot I will surely start my mmorpg publisher...
I just editet my post and I think people might not read it. So I'll quote myself! And I want to add another thing:
Until a few years ago, hardly anyone produced drainpipe jeans for the german market. They were totally out and regarded as ugly and even gay if men wore them. Nowadays I see people wearing drainpipe jeans
everywhere and they are produced by every major jeans producer and even for men. How can that be according to your logic? (nobody produces it = no market)
I am off for today. The flamewar is allowed to escalate NOW! *runs for cover and hides under his warm bedspread*
Who would like to see some of the old school MMO features come back to MMOs today? Does anyone even care?
I mean features like Ultima Online offered. I think nowadays MMOs are to instaned and not enough World play. Does anyone know, miss, or want to see a MMO make a livley world where you are free to do w/e and create your own story?
How does everyone else feel about MMOs today and how the used to be? Are you happy with how they are or would you like to see them good ol' features come back to life?
Get over it, games evolve, people change. These "old-school" days are over. You are now the minority, and as soon as you realize these old school days are over, the quicker we can all move on to the next best thing. Soon enough you guys will be whining about how you miss the "old school" days which are right now. You just have to accept change, or don't play th new generation of MMO's....
Wow, that's a horrible philosphy. I think you don't really understand AT ALL what you're talking about. The current modern MMOs are basically an entirely new genre of MMORPG from the ones 600k of us all originally knew. Can you blame us for missing such a deep and unique experience that no other genre can provide? There's nothing else to move on to. Why is it so offensive that a bunch of people are waiting for a company to make a good game again?
Next time you don't like a game, we'll laugh and tell you to suck it up and move on, or conform.
We'll if I don't like a game, isn't the usual decision to stop playing and move on? So I wouldn't need anyone to tell me to move on It's also no offensive that you are waiting for a company to make the game, its just HOW LING will you wait? Trust me, people will try for the new generation of MMO's because they are going for the millions of gamers, not 600,000 of them. So before you try and argue with me, think about what I say and don't make false assumptions about my posts....
"Same place EQ1 vets went. WoW until TBC came out and then onto consoles / wait mode for another good MMO to hit. Still waiting btw."
Wrong.
They all left when Mythic messed up the game. That's what happened to most old MMORPGs. They stopped being what people loved. Why do you think you get so many threads asking for "classic" rule set servers? Combination of Trials of Atlantis Expansion, the /level system, and a few other direction changes killed the game.
Who would like to see some of the old school MMO features come back to MMOs today? Does anyone even care?
I mean features like Ultima Online offered. I think nowadays MMOs are to instaned and not enough World play. Does anyone know, miss, or want to see a MMO make a livley world where you are free to do w/e and create your own story?
How does everyone else feel about MMOs today and how the used to be? Are you happy with how they are or would you like to see them good ol' features come back to life?
Get over it, games evolve, people change. These "old-school" days are over. You are now the minority, and as soon as you realize these old school days are over, the quicker we can all move on to the next best thing. Soon enough you guys will be whining about how you miss the "old school" days which are right now. You just have to accept change, or don't play th new generation of MMO's....
Wow, that's a horrible philosphy. I think you don't really understand AT ALL what you're talking about. The current modern MMOs are basically an entirely new genre of MMORPG from the ones 600k of us all originally knew. Can you blame us for missing such a deep and unique experience that no other genre can provide? There's nothing else to move on to. Why is it so offensive that a bunch of people are waiting for a company to make a good game again?
Next time you don't like a game, we'll laugh and tell you to suck it up and move on, or conform.
We'll if I don't like a game, isn't the usual decision to stop playing and move on? So I wouldn't need anyone to tell me to move on It's also no offensive that you are waiting for a company to make the game, its just HOW LING will you wait? Trust me, people will try for the new generation of MMO's because they are going for the millions of gamers, not 600,000 of them. So before you try and argue with me, think about what I say and don't make false assumptions about my posts....
This isn't a game issue. This is an entire genre. It'd be like, if FPS games suddenly became something radically different, like an RPG. All old FPS fans are scratching their heads asking for FPS games back, but no one is making anymore, cause RPGs are more successful. What are they to do? Just stop playing video games?
Who would like to see some of the old school MMO features come back to MMOs today? Does anyone even care?
I mean features like Ultima Online offered. I think nowadays MMOs are to instaned and not enough World play. Does anyone know, miss, or want to see a MMO make a livley world where you are free to do w/e and create your own story?
How does everyone else feel about MMOs today and how the used to be? Are you happy with how they are or would you like to see them good ol' features come back to life?
Get over it, games evolve, people change. These "old-school" days are over. You are now the minority, and as soon as you realize these old school days are over, the quicker we can all move on to the next best thing. Soon enough you guys will be whining about how you miss the "old school" days which are right now. You just have to accept change, or don't play th new generation of MMO's....
Wow, that's a horrible philosphy. I think you don't really understand AT ALL what you're talking about. The current modern MMOs are basically an entirely new genre of MMORPG from the ones 600k of us all originally knew. Can you blame us for missing such a deep and unique experience that no other genre can provide? There's nothing else to move on to. Why is it so offensive that a bunch of people are waiting for a company to make a good game again?
Next time you don't like a game, we'll laugh and tell you to suck it up and move on, or conform.
We'll if I don't like a game, isn't the usual decision to stop playing and move on? So I wouldn't need anyone to tell me to move on It's also no offensive that you are waiting for a company to make the game, its just HOW LING will you wait? Trust me, people will try for the new generation of MMO's because they are going for the millions of gamers, not 600,000 of them. So before you try and argue with me, think about what I say and don't make false assumptions about my posts....
This isn't a game issue. This is an entire genre. It'd be like, if FPS games suddenly became something radically different, like an RPG. All old FPS fans are scratching their heads asking for FPS games back, but no one is making anymore, cause RPGs are more successful. What are they to do? Just stop playing video games?
Call of Duty brought rpg elements into FPS games for the most part with the XP system and the perks. Look how the changed turned out, it brought in numbers, and lots of them. It's funny World of Warcraft did that too.....
Comments
Great post. Totally agree with you! I just hope that someday a competent developer studio and a publisher that is lead by someone who is more an artist than a buisnessman will meet and prove us all wrong. It just can't be that there are only moneyhungry, greedy publishers.. i don't want to accept that and I never will!
Just like we should all stop whining about cash shops and RMT. They are the future of MMOs and we should just shut up and enjoy it.
MMORPG gamers are far too willing to politely bend over whenever they are asked. It's getting past the point of being sad, it's getting downright ugly.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Sorta. Shut up and accept it if it becomes the business model. Otherwise don't accept it and leave..
I'm sure someone, somewhere, at some point whined when games went from 2D to 3D and claimed 2D was clearly superior and 'old school' should be brought back. As I cannot recall seeing a post about it I guess they eventually accepted it or left...
Ya, there was quite the uproar when 3D games started becoming popular. I have a couple friends who still can't accept what happened in those dark days.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I don't re-sub to one because old school games have one bad thing about them i don't care much for anymore. BAD Graphics. Also a very small population. And the fact they have also taken the poor path of following WoW like styles. Though Older games have (had)many great qualitys i would more then love to see brought back i also want those qualitys in an up to date game.
Wow, that's a horrible philosphy. I think you don't really understand AT ALL what you're talking about. The current modern MMOs are basically an entirely new genre of MMORPG from the ones 600k of us all originally knew. Can you blame us for missing such a deep and unique experience that no other genre can provide? There's nothing else to move on to. Why is it so offensive that a bunch of people are waiting for a company to make a good game again?
Next time you don't like a game, we'll laugh and tell you to suck it up and move on, or conform.
First of all I find it impolite that you are degrading our cricism as whining. Just stop your pesonal insults, mate.
But I agree with you that the mmorpgmarket will develop in a direction I don't like. But you still did not tell me why I have to accept it instead of fighting for my idea(l)s. Plus you said that we will be QQing about how games were today in the future. That has nothing to do with "We all know where MMORPGs are going and how they are". Even if things are getting worse from my point of view I will surely not tell how great WAR (which i am actually playing) was but tell how much that had already been there in games from the the 98 or 2001 wass lacking. So how do you know I will be QQing how great warhammer and lord of the rings online were?!
I just cannot stand your "accept that everything is shit and calm down" attitude. [although this is a bit out of context: this attitude has lead to terrible developments in the course of history] As long as I have the opinion that the actual mmorpgs do not please me I will tell it to others if they ask me about my opinion and the same goes for any other topic. And everybody should do that so that publishers see that there are still people willing to buy games with those features.
Uhhh, they've released two expansions, opened a new server, hired new developers, started putting boxes on shelves, and moved into a bigger office building?
Aka, a total success? Not sure what point you're trying to argue buddy.
As for "majority of players want WoW", we have seen this is wrong, as the WoW clones have a much higher failure rate than oldschool MMOs. Look at the horrible state AoC and WAR are in. They're so deep in dept, laying people off left and right. Developers need to learn people don't want WoW, WoW players want WoW, and they already have it. They are a non factor in the MMO industry. People want something different, or stuff maybe a little deep, like the old days. The people making GW2 realize this.
No need for destroying a good discussion with your stupid conclusions still lacking any real proof. Wish people would just stop basing the "game that shouldn't be named success" on gameplay, its so much more:
- flatrates increased, internet speed also
- Blizzard had a huge amount of money and a loyal fanbase
- worked a combined of 6 years on this game
The game isn't the example its an exception. Its obvious you're having no clue what you're talking about. Proof? Mentioning, whiners should create their own game...You should just move on and flame in another thread basically in the game that shouldn't be named forums there are tons of players sharing your mindset.
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There seem to be 3 types of MMO players. The oldschool vets. The WoW players (they don't play MMos, they play WoW, and always will), and the casuals who are usually older and just want to relax, or have been bred on WoW and never experienced anything else. The oldschool vets are not a small number, the WoW players throw most things off scale, but they are almost complete non factor, because they'll never leave WoW.
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Hits the nail on the head. Once companies are getting used to this fact we'll see oldschool features again. Aion is #2 and has some real nice oldschool features: slower leveling, group villages, better death penalty (you're losing ep and can only buy a small amount back). I'm sure FFXI could become our savior easily.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
"Ya, there was quite the uproar when 3D games started becoming popular. I have a couple friends who still can't accept what happened in those dark days."
Yeah lets just talk about graphics and voxels and pixels and cars and electronic washing mashines and the evolution of guitarmusic due to the invention of e-guitars. That is really what this thread is about....tbh I just heared people making great music on acoustic guitars for the people who still prefer acoustic over electronic. Did you get the analogy?
Now please stop leading this thread into absurd directions and don't go on destroying it...
You destroyed it anyways! So let us just stare at the ruins saying how beautiful they were and do not take them away from us too...
I care. I definitely don't want 'old school' features making a come back.
If around 20-30k (correct me if I'm way off) players is a huge success then yes, DF is definately a huge success. But its still a very, very small niche compared to the size of the market. I don't think there is any definate answer as to why AoC and WAR "failed", but they both had a couple old school elements (FFA PvP and RvR, respectively) which may or may not have contributed. The basic truth is that most people want WoW, and play WoW. I guess we can conclude that it is very hard to steal players from WoW by emulating it, as proved by the previously mentioned games. However, until someone comes up with something better the best option will be to attempt to build a better WoW.
The next big thing may be a WoW clone, it may be something completely different, or it may be a revisit to old school. I put most faith in the former, secondly in the middle and very little in the latter.
(And to arrest your one claim: AoC/Funcom has some $30m and WAR/EA $1.8b in cash, and no debt.)
All i know is that if old school was still popular more companies would take interested in it. We can make all excuses we want and blame everything on WOW but... reality is staring us in face and we don't want to face it.
You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty -- Mahatma Gandhi
Since I never posted my opinion on the actual topic I will do it in a very short way now. I do not know if they have been in UO, EQ, AC or games from that time, but I want them:
I want:
-open seamless worlds, no instancing; but dungeons that adjust to the number of people.
-world bosses and people spontaneously gathering together to beat that giant dragon / people planning community raids with more than 90 people instead of only playing with your uber elite guild
-real quests you have to read and think about, without stupid questmarks on your map
-no map or maps that are black in places you never were and with very limited information. I want to ask others where I can find the dye merchant instead of searching my map for it.
- class diversity (45 classes in daoc...)
-a game that encourages grouping and socializing. in daoc you could also solo your way up to level 50 but it took way longer.
-that you can only get the best gear from enemies that can only be defeated with groups. so that rare drops are actually rare and something special. I never had dragon gear in DAoC because I never got lucky in dragon raids but that was no problem for me since I knew that these are extremely rare. Whenever someone had dragon gear I thought 'woahh.. that looks so cool. I want i too.' but I never thought 'make it easier so that I can get it too'
-possibility to get very good items by crafting them for those who do not like raiding.
-death penalties that hinder people from using death as quick travel. If I am deep in a dark dungeon I want to feel the thrill of being afraid of not making it out alive...
and many things more that don't come to my mind spontaneously
I do not want:
-people running around ignoring everything besides questmarks because that would cost them some time and they might reach cap level 20 seconds later as planned. In the good old days people actually responded to you when you asked them something. After coming back to mmorpg genre after a few years i got shocked how antisocial the society is. Many people ignore you asking them things or prefer soloing because it is quicker.. As if mmorpgs were about reaching level cap as quick as possible?!
-too harsh deathpenalties. The only way I would accept corpse runs would be if you could decide between doing the corpse run yourself or pay a good amount of money to NPCs which then give you your gear instantly. So you can get your stuff when there is noone to help you get your corpse.
-badly designed spawns with too less mobs. I'd also prefer non-static spawns and roaming mobs instead of the classic static spawns.
edit:
As I have already mentioned, if you believe there is an excellent market opportunity you should exploit it, and noone is stopping you but yourself. If you don't, and noone else does either, it's usually proof that there isn't one.
Ever took into consideration that we do not have the skills or money to do so?!? And what does 'no market' mean? To the established publisher "omfg, we cant get a trillion of dollars out of this" means no market. There is one, but publisher are only trying to be as succesfull as WoW.. and what about the figures at Vanguard launch? Surely there are people who are willing to buy a game like this.
I am a goddamn student who doesnt even have enough money to have his guitar repaired. If I ever win a lottery jackpot I will surely start my mmorpg publisher...
Again, FFA PvP isn't an oldschool thing, as every MMO has had it since about 1999 on special servers. And WAR's RvR was tacked on last minute, because of outcry from the old DAoC players, and thus, wasn't nearly as good as the old RvR, and led to many people leaving.
But thats another point entirely.
Yes, Darkfall is a success, because they made the game on a budget with 30 devs, so the amount of players they have now is pretty good for how much they spent. I'm not saying that all oldschool MMOs need to settle for that, as Darkfall is a niche of a niche of a niche. DAoC had up to 500k subs in its day.
About the only things I miss from the "old days" was the community back then and the level of openness those games had compared to some newer mmos.
Far as the community goes those days are gone for good. Although there are still plenty of players that are helpful and amicable. You just have to be a bit more selective and opt to ignore more folks or leave channels at times.
Far as the level of instancing in mmos? I don't hate it. Fact in some scenarios I find it has it's uses. Although it does seem to be taken to an extreme in some games that takes away from the immersion and seems to have unintended negative side effects on the community.
Outside of those two areas I don't miss the old school at all. I can think of a lot more negative aspects than I can positives from those days. As much as I enjoyed them, I find my gaming in mmoprgs now to be just as entertaining. Moreso actually besides the occasional "bleh" factor from a few releases such as CO, AoC, and STO. Warhammer was rather dissappointing too but it was fun as hell in the lower tiers least when it came to PvP.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Where do you think most of them went...?
Same place EQ1 vets went. WoW until TBC came out and then onto consoles / wait mode for another good MMO to hit. Still waiting btw.
I just editet my post and I think people might not read it. So I'll quote myself! And I want to add another thing:
Until a few years ago, hardly anyone produced drainpipe jeans for the german market. They were totally out and regarded as ugly and even gay if men wore them. Nowadays I see people wearing drainpipe jeans
everywhere and they are produced by every major jeans producer and even for men. How can that be according to your logic? (nobody produces it = no market)
I am off for today. The flamewar is allowed to escalate NOW! *runs for cover and hides under his warm bedspread*
We'll if I don't like a game, isn't the usual decision to stop playing and move on? So I wouldn't need anyone to tell me to move on
It's also no offensive that you are waiting for a company to make the game, its just HOW LING will you wait? Trust me, people will try for the new generation of MMO's because they are going for the millions of gamers, not 600,000 of them. So before you try and argue with me, think about what I say and don't make false assumptions about my posts....
Pepsi1028
PEPSI!!!!!
Get out of your box already...
"Same place EQ1 vets went. WoW until TBC came out and then onto consoles / wait mode for another good MMO to hit. Still waiting btw."
Wrong.
They all left when Mythic messed up the game. That's what happened to most old MMORPGs. They stopped being what people loved. Why do you think you get so many threads asking for "classic" rule set servers? Combination of Trials of Atlantis Expansion, the /level system, and a few other direction changes killed the game.
This isn't a game issue. This is an entire genre. It'd be like, if FPS games suddenly became something radically different, like an RPG. All old FPS fans are scratching their heads asking for FPS games back, but no one is making anymore, cause RPGs are more successful. What are they to do? Just stop playing video games?
Call of Duty brought rpg elements into FPS games for the most part with the XP system and the perks. Look how the changed turned out, it brought in numbers, and lots of them. It's funny World of Warcraft did that too.....
Pepsi1028
PEPSI!!!!!
Get out of your box already...