Who would like to see some of the old school MMO features come back to MMOs today? Does anyone even care?
I mean features like Ultima Online offered. I think nowadays MMOs are to instaned and not enough World play. Does anyone know, miss, or want to see a MMO make a livley world where you are free to do w/e and create your own story?
How does everyone else feel about MMOs today and how the used to be? Are you happy with how they are or would you like to see them good ol' features come back to life?
Get over it, games evolve, people change. These "old-school" days are over. You are now the minority, and as soon as you realize these old school days are over, the quicker we can all move on to the next best thing. Soon enough you guys will be whining about how you miss the "old school" days which are right now. You just have to accept change, or don't play th new generation of MMO's....
Wow, that's a horrible philosphy. I think you don't really understand AT ALL what you're talking about. The current modern MMOs are basically an entirely new genre of MMORPG from the ones 600k of us all originally knew. Can you blame us for missing such a deep and unique experience that no other genre can provide? There's nothing else to move on to. Why is it so offensive that a bunch of people are waiting for a company to make a good game again?
Next time you don't like a game, we'll laugh and tell you to suck it up and move on, or conform.
We'll if I don't like a game, isn't the usual decision to stop playing and move on? So I wouldn't need anyone to tell me to move on It's also no offensive that you are waiting for a company to make the game, its just HOW LING will you wait? Trust me, people will try for the new generation of MMO's because they are going for the millions of gamers, not 600,000 of them. So before you try and argue with me, think about what I say and don't make false assumptions about my posts....
This isn't a game issue. This is an entire genre. It'd be like, if FPS games suddenly became something radically different, like an RPG. All old FPS fans are scratching their heads asking for FPS games back, but no one is making anymore, cause RPGs are more successful. What are they to do? Just stop playing video games?
Call of Duty brought rpg elements into FPS games for the most part with the XP system and the perks. Look how the changed turned out, it brought in numbers, and lots of them. It's funny World of Warcraft did that too.....
I'm not talking about a tiny little addition that's almost entirely superficial, I'm talking about complete shift in the focus of a genre. And your analogy fails because other style FPS games are still being made.
Well if those less challenging modell is the real deal why are there so much failures? War, Sto, CO, Aoc, Eq2, Tabula Rasa, Hellgate London and Lotro (given the huge IP) do I need to continue? Doubt so.
Some companies are still blindsided thinking they could get huge numbers just by making a dumbed down game guess what its not gonna cut it. Like someone mentioned there are 3 sorts of gamers, the "game that shouldn't be named" people don't count they already playing their game, which leaves casuals and old school players.
Hence Vanguard without the dumb forced release and Soe would've been a huge success speaking in realistic and not exception terms.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
As I have already mentioned, if you believe there is an excellent market opportunity you should exploit it, and noone is stopping you but yourself. If you don't, and noone else does either, it's usually proof that there isn't one.
Ever took into consideration that we do not have the skills or money to do so?!? And what does 'no market' mean? To the established publisher "omfg, we cant get a trillion of dollars out of this" means no market. There is one, but publisher are only trying to be as succesfull as WoW.. and what about the figures at Vanguard launch? Surely there are people who are willing to buy a game like this.
I am a goddamn student who doesnt even have enough money to have his guitar repaired. If I ever win a lottery jackpot I will surely start my mmorpg publisher...
I just editet my post and I think people might not read it. So I'll quote myself! And I want to add another thing:
Until a few years ago, hardly anyone produced drainpipe jeans for the german market. They were totally out and regarded as ugly and even gay if men wore them. Nowadays I see people wearing drainpipe jeans
everywhere and they are produced by every major jeans producer and even for men. How can that be according to your logic? (nobody produces it = no market)
I am off for today. The flamewar is allowed to escalate NOW! *runs for cover and hides under his warm bedspread*
If you don't have the money to get your guitar repaired, you probably won't have money to buy a game. THAT is what 'no market' truly means
On a more serious note, there are dozens of game dev companies vying for your buck. If a company finds that enough people have enough bucks to put out an old school game, an old school game will be released. Companies don't invest millions of dollars into products without any form of market research or understanding, and this is exactly the reason so many of the old school elements are not present in new games: They just don't appeal to a player base large enough to recoup the cost of including it.
Again, if you disagree and know better, there are always people with cash to help you if you don't have your own. However, you'll need to convince them...
Who would like to see some of the old school MMO features come back to MMOs today? Does anyone even care?
I mean features like Ultima Online offered. I think nowadays MMOs are to instaned and not enough World play. Does anyone know, miss, or want to see a MMO make a livley world where you are free to do w/e and create your own story?
How does everyone else feel about MMOs today and how the used to be? Are you happy with how they are or would you like to see them good ol' features come back to life?
Get over it, games evolve, people change. These "old-school" days are over. You are now the minority, and as soon as you realize these old school days are over, the quicker we can all move on to the next best thing. Soon enough you guys will be whining about how you miss the "old school" days which are right now. You just have to accept change, or don't play th new generation of MMO's....
Wow, that's a horrible philosphy. I think you don't really understand AT ALL what you're talking about. The current modern MMOs are basically an entirely new genre of MMORPG from the ones 600k of us all originally knew. Can you blame us for missing such a deep and unique experience that no other genre can provide? There's nothing else to move on to. Why is it so offensive that a bunch of people are waiting for a company to make a good game again?
Next time you don't like a game, we'll laugh and tell you to suck it up and move on, or conform.
We'll if I don't like a game, isn't the usual decision to stop playing and move on? So I wouldn't need anyone to tell me to move on It's also no offensive that you are waiting for a company to make the game, its just HOW LING will you wait? Trust me, people will try for the new generation of MMO's because they are going for the millions of gamers, not 600,000 of them. So before you try and argue with me, think about what I say and don't make false assumptions about my posts....
This isn't a game issue. This is an entire genre. It'd be like, if FPS games suddenly became something radically different, like an RPG. All old FPS fans are scratching their heads asking for FPS games back, but no one is making anymore, cause RPGs are more successful. What are they to do? Just stop playing video games?
Call of Duty brought rpg elements into FPS games for the most part with the XP system and the perks. Look how the changed turned out, it brought in numbers, and lots of them. It's funny World of Warcraft did that too.....
I'm not talking about a tiny little addition that's almost entirely superficial, I'm talking about complete shift in the focus of a genre. And your analogy fails because other style FPS games are still being made.
Yes, yes they are still being made. Yet, these large changes draw in crowds. People like new things that are pleasing, so companies try and mix genres to appeal to a wider audience of customers...
Thing is Old School MMORPGs are games based on RPG mechanics that attracted mostly players interested in RPGs.
WoW, while an MMO, is really a game that didn't aim exclusively at the people who played RPGs. Their large numbers came from the fact that the game itself was based on a franchise loved by many gamers (Warcraft) by a company that had other games that solidified a base of fans (StarCraft and Diablo).
Blizzard is a company that was well know through various genres (RPG, Console, RTS, etc) and had a huge following through BNet. Most of the other MMO developers really had nothing under their belts before releasing an MMO with maybe the exception of Origin Systems/EA (The Ultima Series, Wing Commander, etc from just that house). But with Blizzards installed fanbase of millions even before the launch of WoW, it's hard to imagine that the game could possibly not get the numbers it did at launch. And just like the Rubick's cube in the 80's, it became a phenomenom that everyone got sucked into one way or another.
I am willing to bet that if any of the original old school MMO dev houses created WoW with all the polish and functionality that it has along with all the attention Blizzard gives its game, it would fare no better than any other MMO that had been released before it.
The same could be said as far as Blizzard building a new version of EQ. If they were to make a game that is the exact spitting image of the way EQ was back in the day mechanics wise (Harsh death penalty, long levels, open world camping, etc) The game would sell millions of copies and have millions of people playing for years to come, because they have that installed fanbase of millions of people who feel Blizzard can do no wrong.
Now as far as I go, Yes I would love to see games get back to being challenging in nature. I mean we already have MMOs that are aimed at being less of a challenge and MMOs that aim at being as close to WoW as can be possible and they really are not doing any better than the old school MMOs did. In some cases they are doing worse.
The genre is big enough now and there are plenty of people out there who want something thats different or more of a challenge. Devs need to stop chasing WoW's playerbase and start making games for the rest of the players in the genre. Because the simple fact is, WoW players will be playing WoW till the next Blizzard game hits or untill they finally shut the servers down.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Who would like to see some of the old school MMO features come back to MMOs today? Does anyone even care?
I mean features like Ultima Online offered. I think nowadays MMOs are to instaned and not enough World play. Does anyone know, miss, or want to see a MMO make a livley world where you are free to do w/e and create your own story?
How does everyone else feel about MMOs today and how the used to be? Are you happy with how they are or would you like to see them good ol' features come back to life?
Get over it, games evolve, people change. These "old-school" days are over. You are now the minority, and as soon as you realize these old school days are over, the quicker we can all move on to the next best thing. Soon enough you guys will be whining about how you miss the "old school" days which are right now. You just have to accept change, or don't play th new generation of MMO's....
Wow, that's a horrible philosphy. I think you don't really understand AT ALL what you're talking about. The current modern MMOs are basically an entirely new genre of MMORPG from the ones 600k of us all originally knew. Can you blame us for missing such a deep and unique experience that no other genre can provide? There's nothing else to move on to. Why is it so offensive that a bunch of people are waiting for a company to make a good game again?
Next time you don't like a game, we'll laugh and tell you to suck it up and move on, or conform.
We'll if I don't like a game, isn't the usual decision to stop playing and move on? So I wouldn't need anyone to tell me to move on It's also no offensive that you are waiting for a company to make the game, its just HOW LING will you wait? Trust me, people will try for the new generation of MMO's because they are going for the millions of gamers, not 600,000 of them. So before you try and argue with me, think about what I say and don't make false assumptions about my posts....
This isn't a game issue. This is an entire genre. It'd be like, if FPS games suddenly became something radically different, like an RPG. All old FPS fans are scratching their heads asking for FPS games back, but no one is making anymore, cause RPGs are more successful. What are they to do? Just stop playing video games?
Call of Duty brought rpg elements into FPS games for the most part with the XP system and the perks. Look how the changed turned out, it brought in numbers, and lots of them. It's funny World of Warcraft did that too.....
Call of Duty didn't get Millions of buyers because they have a leveling system and perks. LOL, maybe thats why you bought the game but it isn't the reason i bought it or 14 other people i know bought it. Why is there all these people on this thread trying to state facts that clearly are not. This is getting to far off track..
Who would like to see some of the old school MMO features come back to MMOs today? Does anyone even care?
I mean features like Ultima Online offered. I think nowadays MMOs are to instaned and not enough World play. Does anyone know, miss, or want to see a MMO make a livley world where you are free to do w/e and create your own story?
How does everyone else feel about MMOs today and how the used to be? Are you happy with how they are or would you like to see them good ol' features come back to life?
Get over it, games evolve, people change. These "old-school" days are over. You are now the minority, and as soon as you realize these old school days are over, the quicker we can all move on to the next best thing. Soon enough you guys will be whining about how you miss the "old school" days which are right now. You just have to accept change, or don't play th new generation of MMO's....
Wow, that's a horrible philosphy. I think you don't really understand AT ALL what you're talking about. The current modern MMOs are basically an entirely new genre of MMORPG from the ones 600k of us all originally knew. Can you blame us for missing such a deep and unique experience that no other genre can provide? There's nothing else to move on to. Why is it so offensive that a bunch of people are waiting for a company to make a good game again?
Next time you don't like a game, we'll laugh and tell you to suck it up and move on, or conform.
We'll if I don't like a game, isn't the usual decision to stop playing and move on? So I wouldn't need anyone to tell me to move on It's also no offensive that you are waiting for a company to make the game, its just HOW LING will you wait? Trust me, people will try for the new generation of MMO's because they are going for the millions of gamers, not 600,000 of them. So before you try and argue with me, think about what I say and don't make false assumptions about my posts....
This isn't a game issue. This is an entire genre. It'd be like, if FPS games suddenly became something radically different, like an RPG. All old FPS fans are scratching their heads asking for FPS games back, but no one is making anymore, cause RPGs are more successful. What are they to do? Just stop playing video games?
Call of Duty brought rpg elements into FPS games for the most part with the XP system and the perks. Look how the changed turned out, it brought in numbers, and lots of them. It's funny World of Warcraft did that too.....
Call of Duty didn't get Millions of buyers because they have a leveling system and perks. LOL, maybe thats why you bought the game but it isn't the reason i bought it or 14 other people i know bought it. Why is there all these people on this thread trying to state facts that clearly are not. This is getting to far off track..
Recent Call of Duty's, from $ to Modern Warfare. The perk system defined what it is today and the rpg elements were a huge selling factor. I am not getting off track, I'm just stating how the new generation of games which tends to lean towards the causal players, brings in more numbers in terms of sales.
On a more serious note, there are dozens of game dev companies vying for your buck. If a company finds that enough people have enough bucks to put out an old school game, an old school game will be released. Companies don't invest millions of dollars into products without any form of market research or understanding, and this is exactly the reason so many of the old school elements are not present in new games: They just don't appeal to a player base large enough to recoup the cost of including it.
Ok, but now that several companies have followed the market research model and wasted god knows how many millions on trying in vain to copy "that other game's" success, what will they do next? Try harder on the cloning strategy? Try to carve out a niche? Abandon MMOs? Experiment with RMT models?
On a more serious note, there are dozens of game dev companies vying for your buck. If a company finds that enough people have enough bucks to put out an old school game, an old school game will be released. Companies don't invest millions of dollars into products without any form of market research or understanding, and this is exactly the reason so many of the old school elements are not present in new games: They just don't appeal to a player base large enough to recoup the cost of including it.
Ok, but now that several companies have followed the market research model and wasted god knows how many millions on trying in vain to copy "that other game's" success, what will they do next? Try harder on the cloning strategy? Try to carve out a niche? Abandon MMOs? Experiment with RMT models?
Probably try to invent a better mousetrap..*sigh*
You see 1% chance of making $100m is better than a 100% chance of making $100k. But that's another discussion altogether. The point is that i doubt making an updated old school game is going to fare well. DF and FE have tried and are not exactly pulling in the big bucks. The potential playerbase is too small and the risks are too high, which means, that for now at least, not diverging too far from WoW is the best business model. If the next change is from WoW to something completely different, a refinement of the existing, or a reversion to old school is anyones guess, but my bet's not on the latter. If it was, I'm pretty sure it would have been done because it isn't all that difficult to be honest.
The 'Old School'-niche is so tiny there is no developer who can make a profitable game for it. As its possible to make a profitable game with less than 50k subs, that's quite telling how unpopular it is.
Seems like all the lovers of old school are hanging around these forums anyway, why don't you just make your own goddamned game instead of continuosly harping about features the vast majority of the market have rejected?
Sure, I agree in a way(regarding size). Look, before WoW, the mmo community was not that big. Many of those players are still around and really don't care for the WoW type of game. Publishers are seeing this big WoW player base and trying to grab them rhater than the player base that have been around for over a decade. So they see doing a WoW style as a safe bet, yet it does not interest the older community nor the WoW community... well that plays WoW or any Blizzard fan game.
The old UO community players are most interesting, because many of them came to UO as an alternative to playing Diablo as many did. UO was to them/us like Diable but much better. Those that stayed with Diable (which were many) went to Diablo 2 and then to WoW. Now those games that more resembled UO as we move to, have been becoming more like WoW which are the players that stayed with Diablo/Diablo2 all those years. So we loose out on what we fled Blizzard games for.
WoW will only begin to die when Blizzard releases a new mmog, and the old school mmog players will continue to suffer until publishers realize Blizard has their own locked fan-base.
I guess we can possibly agree on the industry has moved on from offering challenging, complex games to offering simple, easy games because the market changed.
Fixed that for you. Not all players like to be spoonfed their games. WoW was far more noob-friendly than EQ1, but not nearly as noob-friendly as it is now. Accessibility is a big draw to new MMO-ers and level of polish is a draw to all gamers, but that accessibility is only great until you have a grip on the dynamics of the game- after that it just feels condescending. The sad thing is that newer gamers just have no idea what they could have in a game, because WoW is all they have experienced. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.
For those that do know better but play anyway- Just because people are subscribing to WoW doesn't mean they are playing it often, are captivated by it, or even like the game itself as it is now. There are many possible reasons for this but I think a couple of good reasons are because there really isn't a better choice out (especially one that's as polished/bug-free) or that they have enough friends in the game that it's hard to leave them all behind.
I guess we can possibly agree on the industry has moved on from offering challenging, complex games to offering simple, easy games because the market changed.
Fixed that for you. Not all players like to be spoonfed their games. WoW was far more noob-friendly than EQ1, but not nearly as noob-friendly as it is now. Accessibility is a big draw to new MMO-ers and level of polish is a draw to all gamers, but that accessibility is only great until you have a grip on the dynamics of the game- after that it just feels condescending. The sad thing is that newer gamers just have no idea what they could have in a game, because WoW is all they have experienced. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.
For those that do know better but play anyway- Just because people are subscribing to WoW doesn't mean they are playing it often, are captivated by it, or even like the game itself as it is now. There are many possible reasons for this but I think a couple of good reasons are because there really isn't a better choice out (especially one that's as polished/bug-free) or that they have enough friends in the game that it's hard to leave them all behind.
Two things:
1. Accessibility is important for a large number of the MMO crowd, including me. I don't have many hours of playtime each week and I'll be damned to spend them doing something which isn't fun. I sub to games because they provide entertainment, I have plenty of challenges at work.
2. I've experienced a number of old school MMO's and I didn't like what they offered.I've experienced a number of new MMO's and didn't like what they offered. Ignorance isn't always bliss, sometimes it's being informed.
The 'Old School'-niche is so tiny there is no developer who can make a profitable game for it. As its possible to make a profitable game with less than 50k subs, that's quite telling how unpopular it is.
Seems like all the lovers of old school are hanging around these forums anyway, why don't you just make your own goddamned game instead of continuosly harping about features the vast majority of the market have rejected?
Sure, I agree in a way(regarding size). Look, before WoW, the mmo community was not that big.
WoW will only begin to die when Blizzard releases a new mmog, and the old school mmog players will continue to suffer until publishers realize Blizard has their own locked fan-base.
It was about 2-3 million strong. And that's about the number it still is. All those new people WoW brought into the "market" stay in WoW. The oldschool "niche" isn't small at all, or Vanguard wouldn't have sold so well within its first week, so close behind Burning Crusades release.
The 'Old School'-niche is so tiny there is no developer who can make a profitable game for it. As its possible to make a profitable game with less than 50k subs, that's quite telling how unpopular it is.
Seems like all the lovers of old school are hanging around these forums anyway, why don't you just make your own goddamned game instead of continuosly harping about features the vast majority of the market have rejected?
Sure, I agree in a way(regarding size). Look, before WoW, the mmo community was not that big.
WoW will only begin to die when Blizzard releases a new mmog, and the old school mmog players will continue to suffer until publishers realize Blizard has their own locked fan-base.
It was about 2-3 million strong. And that's about the number it still is. All those new people WoW brought into the "market" stay in WoW. The oldschool "niche" isn't small at all, or Vanguard wouldn't have sold so well within its first week, so close behind Burning Crusades release.
Small in comparison, but not tiny, though spread out in innumerable titles. Big amount of 10 million = Diablo, Star Craft, Warcraft players buying another Blizard title which happens to be an mmorpg this time. Some new players, mostly drawn by hype and/or friends. Publishers only see the $$ in the numbers.
Take a number and camp? Why not just spawn more baddies faster if there are more players in the immediate area?
Exactly. There are many ways to combat the problems seen with the old school games like UO, EQ, ect. People think that just because they go with an old school philosophy means they are going to have the same problems that they had in the late 90's, please. Wake up. It can be done and should be done.
Originally posted by Stellos Originally posted by wormywyrm Take a number and camp? Why not just spawn more baddies faster if there are more players in the immediate area?
Exactly. There are many ways to combat the problems seen with the old school games like UO, EQ, ect. People think that just because they go with an old school philosophy means they are going to have the same problems that they had in the late 90's, please. Wake up. It can be done and should be done.
You really would want to just sit in one place and kill the same groups of monsters for hours on end? I would say that would be taking a step back and I personally wouldn't want to go back with faster respawns and stiff death penalties (even though I would like to see penalties stiffen up a bit from where its at now).
I don't think many people are looking at the problems that existed back in the beginning of MMO, but more for the fact that they're just outdated systems and we have gone a long way from that. For the most part, the new games today do what all the older games do with much more added improvements (and beyond just prettier 3D models).
There was a lot more monotony back then more than there is now, it's just that many games especially theme-parks have packaged the games in a way trying to break the monotony and provide easy access to ways of enjoying the game usually in the form of combat and questing, currently. Despite how much I would like the industry to move beyond this point, I think it has been a lot better than what was provided back in UO's days.
Part of that old spawn-camping problem was that servers were not powerful enough to add enough spawn. You can add way more content these days to a server, as well as more players.
Take a number and camp? Why not just spawn more baddies faster if there are more players in the immediate area?
Exactly. There are many ways to combat the problems seen with the old school games like UO, EQ, ect. People think that just because they go with an old school philosophy means they are going to have the same problems that they had in the late 90's, please. Wake up. It can be done and should be done.
You really would want to just sit in one place and kill the same groups of monsters for hours on end?
As opposed to what, running to a quest hub marked on a mini map, then following the dotted line to the right camp, killing 10, and then running back?
I'd much rather be free to just go where I want, which the mob grinding system allowed. People didn't camp the same room for hours, they usually moved around, because you'd get camp bonus xp if you killed mobs that hadn't been hunted in a long time. And since you're moving around and exploring the dungeon, and each encounter is different, its a bit more exciting. Also, it allows for more socializing, instead of just follow the mini map to quest hub over and over and over.
Tasks you do over and over will alwways be monotonous. At least in the mob grinding, you moved around and explored at your own pace, and you talked with others and had a good time, vs, everyone just running off and soloing "quests". It's gotten so bad that almost every game I try, I see the big stupid ! over an NPC head, pick up the quest, which results in a "Go here on the map, kill 2 of these, and I'll give you this!" and quit thinking "I'm not doing this crap AGAIN for another 50 levels".
As opposed to what, running to a quest hub marked on a mini map, then following the dotted line to the right camp, killing 10, and then running back? I'd much rather be free to just go where I want, which the mob grinding system allowed. People didn't camp the same room for hours, they usually moved around, because you'd get camp bonus xp if you killed mobs that hadn't been hunted in a long time. And since you're moving around and exploring the dungeon, and each encounter is different, its a bit more exciting. Also, it allows for more socializing, instead of just follow the mini map to quest hub over and over and over. Tasks you do over and over will alwways be monotonous. At least in the mob grinding, you moved around and explored at your own pace, and you talked with others and had a good time, vs, everyone just running off and soloing "quests". It's gotten so bad that almost every game I try, I see the big stupid ! over an NPC head, pick up the quest, which results in a "Go here on the map, kill 2 of these, and I'll give you this!" and quit thinking "I'm not doing this crap AGAIN for another 50 levels".
Well, reading that first line of your response and comparing that with just sitting in one spot grinding away at the same groups of mobs for hours on end, I would much prefer the quest hub.
The misconception here is that you really weren't that free to go where you want because specific zones were designed for specific levels at about 2-3 zones per every 5th/10th level. This combined with very slow leveling and exp loss upon death (where the cause of death might not be your fault, it could of been 1 of 6-8 other people). There were times where I wanted to beat my head over the keyboard because I wasn't sure whether or not I would ever make it to the next level.
Sure, tasks always will be monotonous but in your first line, you described to me a LIST of tasks as opposed to one simple task. Yes, the questing system is getting old, but it definitely surpasses entertainment value of its predecessors. And if you really prefer a game that provides you with ways to think for yourself and do what you want, why aren't you considering sandboxes and games that do not have these features (which are most inherent in theme-parks).
Some considerations might be EVE Online, Darkfall, Mortal Online. Sure the list is short, but it was just as short back in the day as well (UO, AC and pre-NGE SWG). I'm not seeing what old school games have over newer school.
The misconception here is that you really weren't that free to go where you want because specific zones were designed for specific levels at about 2-3 zones per every 5th/10th level. This combined with very slow leveling and exp loss upon death (where the cause of death might not be your fault, it could of been 1 of 6-8 other people). There were times where I wanted to beat my head over the keyboard because I wasn't sure whether or not I would ever make it to the next level.
A lot of that had to do with later expansions. Selling point is often cap increase and the expansion had the mobs to achieve that new level. You get back to base release and first expansion or two, generally it’s rather well mixed.
If games didn't use expansions, they could modify base spawn to reflect the diversity; an evolving environment.
As opposed to what, running to a quest hub marked on a mini map, then following the dotted line to the right camp, killing 10, and then running back?
I'd much rather be free to just go where I want, which the mob grinding system allowed. People didn't camp the same room for hours, they usually moved around, because you'd get camp bonus xp if you killed mobs that hadn't been hunted in a long time. And since you're moving around and exploring the dungeon, and each encounter is different, its a bit more exciting. Also, it allows for more socializing, instead of just follow the mini map to quest hub over and over and over.
Tasks you do over and over will alwways be monotonous. At least in the mob grinding, you moved around and explored at your own pace, and you talked with others and had a good time, vs, everyone just running off and soloing "quests". It's gotten so bad that almost every game I try, I see the big stupid ! over an NPC head, pick up the quest, which results in a "Go here on the map, kill 2 of these, and I'll give you this!" and quit thinking "I'm not doing this crap AGAIN for another 50 levels".
Well, reading that first line of your response and comparing that with just sitting in one spot grinding away at the same groups of mobs for hours on end, I would much prefer the quest hub.
The misconception here is that you really weren't that free to go where you want because specific zones were designed for specific levels at about 2-3 zones per every 5th/10th level. This combined with very slow leveling and exp loss upon death (where the cause of death might not be your fault, it could of been 1 of 6-8 other people). There were times where I wanted to beat my head over the keyboard because I wasn't sure whether or not I would ever make it to the next level.
Sure, tasks always will be monotonous but in your first line, you described to me a LIST of tasks as opposed to one simple task. Yes, the questing system is getting old, but it definitely surpasses entertainment value of its predecessors. And if you really prefer a game that provides you with ways to think for yourself and do what you want, why aren't you considering sandboxes and games that do not have these features (which are most inherent in theme-parks).
Some considerations might be EVE Online, Darkfall, Mortal Online. Sure the list is short, but it was just as short back in the day as well (UO, AC and pre-NGE SWG). I'm not seeing what old school games have over newer school.
We aren't saying that you are wrong for what you like. I'm glad that you are able to enjoy the new era of mmorpgs, you aren't the one I'm worried about. You have plenty of top notch games to play atm. The point is that us oldschool players are asking for one decent MMORPG and you say that we have no right to ask for a single game out of hundreds because you don't enjoy the same playstyle as we do.
Most of us in this thread are old-school PVE players, which makes the 3 sandboxes you listed useless to us as they are hardcore PVP games. Vanguard had a very good shot of becoming something great, but with it's horrible release and lack of support it is a ghost land and with no population and no support / future updates there is no MMORPG.
You really would want to just sit in one place and kill the same groups of monsters for hours on end? I would say that would be taking a step back and I personally wouldn't want to go back with faster respawns and stiff death penalties (even though I would like to see penalties stiffen up a bit from where its at now).
I don't think many people are looking at the problems that existed back in the beginning of MMO, but more for the fact that they're just outdated systems and we have gone a long way from that. For the most part, the new games today do what all the older games do with much more added improvements (and beyond just prettier 3D models).
There was a lot more monotony back then more than there is now, it's just that many games especially theme-parks have packaged the games in a way trying to break the monotony and provide easy access to ways of enjoying the game usually in the form of combat and questing, currently. Despite how much I would like the industry to move beyond this point, I think it has been a lot better than what was provided back in UO's days.
Thing is back in the day each company tried to make things differently from what was already out there. We had MMOs where each game was built on different principles and mechanics. Each company aimed to innovate over what was already done.
Now fast forward to today where each game coming out is nothing more than WoW in a new skin. Innovation has been replaced by stagnation. Where companies would once try something new and different, they now just take what the giant makes, slap a new name on it and change the actors a bit and call it 'New' or 'Next Gen'.
As far as monotony goes, it's in EVERY game in this genre. Camping mob spawns is the same as doing every form of 'Kill 10 Rats' or 'Bring me 10 of (insert item here)' quests availible in newer MMOs. The monotony is the same, its just the method has changed slightly. And once you hit end game in these 'New and Improved' games, you're hitting the same brick wall of grinding bosses for loot. The only difference between then and now is everyone is a winner as opposed to everyone could be a winner. Like how in grade school everyone gets a ribbon for their project because if they didn't it might cause their feelings to be hurt.
Before WoW there were 5 MMOs I can name that while being similar in some ways were vastly different in others. UO, EQ, AC, DAoC, AO. Each game added something new to the genre (EQ being the first MMO to truely make use of 3D graphics on a massive scale, AC making a game that added more depth to character customization, DAoC refining PvP into the RvR format, AO melding a massive world with the first use of instancing technology as well as being the first game to use flight). You also had games like SWG that focused more on living and being a part of a world rather than just playing in one.
Now all we get are games built to be like WoW with heavy use of instancing, emphasis on quest grinding and PvP in the form of Battlegrounds. It's all just become 'Copy/Paste = Win?'.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Take a number and camp? Why not just spawn more baddies faster if there are more players in the immediate area?
Exactly. There are many ways to combat the problems seen with the old school games like UO, EQ, ect. People think that just because they go with an old school philosophy means they are going to have the same problems that they had in the late 90's, please. Wake up. It can be done and should be done.
You really would want to just sit in one place and kill the same groups of monsters for hours on end?
As opposed to what, running to a quest hub marked on a mini map, then following the dotted line to the right camp, killing 10, and then running back?
I'd much rather be free to just go where I want, which the mob grinding system allowed. People didn't camp the same room for hours, they usually moved around, because you'd get camp bonus xp if you killed mobs that hadn't been hunted in a long time. And since you're moving around and exploring the dungeon, and each encounter is different, its a bit more exciting. Also, it allows for more socializing, instead of just follow the mini map to quest hub over and over and over.
Tasks you do over and over will alwways be monotonous. At least in the mob grinding, you moved around and explored at your own pace, and you talked with others and had a good time, vs, everyone just running off and soloing "quests". It's gotten so bad that almost every game I try, I see the big stupid ! over an NPC head, pick up the quest, which results in a "Go here on the map, kill 2 of these, and I'll give you this!" and quit thinking "I'm not doing this crap AGAIN for another 50 levels".
The journey and mission is to find where that damned line ends
We aren't saying that you are wrong for what you like. I'm glad that you are able to enjoy the new era of mmorpgs, you aren't the one I'm worried about. You have plenty of top notch games to play atm. The point is that us oldschool players are asking for one decent MMORPG and you say that we have no right to ask for a single game out of hundreds because you don't enjoy the same playstyle as we do.
You have every right to ask, you have no right whatsoever to demand. If you can convince a developer to make a game for you, more power to you. However, the only way any developer is going to make a game is if the old school players can demonstrate that they have enough numbers and money to warrant the development of a game. If they can't, then no matter how much you want one, chances are slim that you'll ever actually get one.
Comments
I'm not talking about a tiny little addition that's almost entirely superficial, I'm talking about complete shift in the focus of a genre. And your analogy fails because other style FPS games are still being made.
Well if those less challenging modell is the real deal why are there so much failures? War, Sto, CO, Aoc, Eq2, Tabula Rasa, Hellgate London and Lotro (given the huge IP) do I need to continue? Doubt so.
Some companies are still blindsided thinking they could get huge numbers just by making a dumbed down game guess what its not gonna cut it. Like someone mentioned there are 3 sorts of gamers, the "game that shouldn't be named" people don't count they already playing their game, which leaves casuals and old school players.
Hence Vanguard without the dumb forced release and Soe would've been a huge success speaking in realistic and not exception terms.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
If you don't have the money to get your guitar repaired, you probably won't have money to buy a game. THAT is what 'no market' truly means
On a more serious note, there are dozens of game dev companies vying for your buck. If a company finds that enough people have enough bucks to put out an old school game, an old school game will be released. Companies don't invest millions of dollars into products without any form of market research or understanding, and this is exactly the reason so many of the old school elements are not present in new games: They just don't appeal to a player base large enough to recoup the cost of including it.
Again, if you disagree and know better, there are always people with cash to help you if you don't have your own. However, you'll need to convince them...
Yes, yes they are still being made. Yet, these large changes draw in crowds. People like new things that are pleasing, so companies try and mix genres to appeal to a wider audience of customers...
Pepsi1028
PEPSI!!!!!
Get out of your box already...
Thing is Old School MMORPGs are games based on RPG mechanics that attracted mostly players interested in RPGs.
WoW, while an MMO, is really a game that didn't aim exclusively at the people who played RPGs. Their large numbers came from the fact that the game itself was based on a franchise loved by many gamers (Warcraft) by a company that had other games that solidified a base of fans (StarCraft and Diablo).
Blizzard is a company that was well know through various genres (RPG, Console, RTS, etc) and had a huge following through BNet. Most of the other MMO developers really had nothing under their belts before releasing an MMO with maybe the exception of Origin Systems/EA (The Ultima Series, Wing Commander, etc from just that house). But with Blizzards installed fanbase of millions even before the launch of WoW, it's hard to imagine that the game could possibly not get the numbers it did at launch. And just like the Rubick's cube in the 80's, it became a phenomenom that everyone got sucked into one way or another.
I am willing to bet that if any of the original old school MMO dev houses created WoW with all the polish and functionality that it has along with all the attention Blizzard gives its game, it would fare no better than any other MMO that had been released before it.
The same could be said as far as Blizzard building a new version of EQ. If they were to make a game that is the exact spitting image of the way EQ was back in the day mechanics wise (Harsh death penalty, long levels, open world camping, etc) The game would sell millions of copies and have millions of people playing for years to come, because they have that installed fanbase of millions of people who feel Blizzard can do no wrong.
Now as far as I go, Yes I would love to see games get back to being challenging in nature. I mean we already have MMOs that are aimed at being less of a challenge and MMOs that aim at being as close to WoW as can be possible and they really are not doing any better than the old school MMOs did. In some cases they are doing worse.
The genre is big enough now and there are plenty of people out there who want something thats different or more of a challenge. Devs need to stop chasing WoW's playerbase and start making games for the rest of the players in the genre. Because the simple fact is, WoW players will be playing WoW till the next Blizzard game hits or untill they finally shut the servers down.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Call of Duty didn't get Millions of buyers because they have a leveling system and perks. LOL, maybe thats why you bought the game but it isn't the reason i bought it or 14 other people i know bought it. Why is there all these people on this thread trying to state facts that clearly are not. This is getting to far off track..
Recent Call of Duty's, from $ to Modern Warfare. The perk system defined what it is today and the rpg elements were a huge selling factor. I am not getting off track, I'm just stating how the new generation of games which tends to lean towards the causal players, brings in more numbers in terms of sales.
Pepsi1028
PEPSI!!!!!
Get out of your box already...
Ok, but now that several companies have followed the market research model and wasted god knows how many millions on trying in vain to copy "that other game's" success, what will they do next? Try harder on the cloning strategy? Try to carve out a niche? Abandon MMOs? Experiment with RMT models?
Probably try to invent a better mousetrap..*sigh*
You see 1% chance of making $100m is better than a 100% chance of making $100k. But that's another discussion altogether. The point is that i doubt making an updated old school game is going to fare well. DF and FE have tried and are not exactly pulling in the big bucks. The potential playerbase is too small and the risks are too high, which means, that for now at least, not diverging too far from WoW is the best business model. If the next change is from WoW to something completely different, a refinement of the existing, or a reversion to old school is anyones guess, but my bet's not on the latter. If it was, I'm pretty sure it would have been done because it isn't all that difficult to be honest.
Sure, I agree in a way(regarding size). Look, before WoW, the mmo community was not that big. Many of those players are still around and really don't care for the WoW type of game. Publishers are seeing this big WoW player base and trying to grab them rhater than the player base that have been around for over a decade. So they see doing a WoW style as a safe bet, yet it does not interest the older community nor the WoW community... well that plays WoW or any Blizzard fan game.
The old UO community players are most interesting, because many of them came to UO as an alternative to playing Diablo as many did. UO was to them/us like Diable but much better. Those that stayed with Diable (which were many) went to Diablo 2 and then to WoW. Now those games that more resembled UO as we move to, have been becoming more like WoW which are the players that stayed with Diablo/Diablo2 all those years. So we loose out on what we fled Blizzard games for.
WoW will only begin to die when Blizzard releases a new mmog, and the old school mmog players will continue to suffer until publishers realize Blizard has their own locked fan-base.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
Fixed that for you. Not all players like to be spoonfed their games. WoW was far more noob-friendly than EQ1, but not nearly as noob-friendly as it is now. Accessibility is a big draw to new MMO-ers and level of polish is a draw to all gamers, but that accessibility is only great until you have a grip on the dynamics of the game- after that it just feels condescending. The sad thing is that newer gamers just have no idea what they could have in a game, because WoW is all they have experienced. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.
For those that do know better but play anyway- Just because people are subscribing to WoW doesn't mean they are playing it often, are captivated by it, or even like the game itself as it is now. There are many possible reasons for this but I think a couple of good reasons are because there really isn't a better choice out (especially one that's as polished/bug-free) or that they have enough friends in the game that it's hard to leave them all behind.
Two things:
1. Accessibility is important for a large number of the MMO crowd, including me. I don't have many hours of playtime each week and I'll be damned to spend them doing something which isn't fun. I sub to games because they provide entertainment, I have plenty of challenges at work.
2. I've experienced a number of old school MMO's and I didn't like what they offered.I've experienced a number of new MMO's and didn't like what they offered. Ignorance isn't always bliss, sometimes it's being informed.
Quote of the thread perhaps? Re-think that statement real quick.
It was about 2-3 million strong. And that's about the number it still is. All those new people WoW brought into the "market" stay in WoW. The oldschool "niche" isn't small at all, or Vanguard wouldn't have sold so well within its first week, so close behind Burning Crusades release.
Small in comparison, but not tiny, though spread out in innumerable titles. Big amount of 10 million = Diablo, Star Craft, Warcraft players buying another Blizard title which happens to be an mmorpg this time. Some new players, mostly drawn by hype and/or friends. Publishers only see the $$ in the numbers.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
Exactly. There are many ways to combat the problems seen with the old school games like UO, EQ, ect. People think that just because they go with an old school philosophy means they are going to have the same problems that they had in the late 90's, please. Wake up. It can be done and should be done.
You really would want to just sit in one place and kill the same groups of monsters for hours on end? I would say that would be taking a step back and I personally wouldn't want to go back with faster respawns and stiff death penalties (even though I would like to see penalties stiffen up a bit from where its at now).
I don't think many people are looking at the problems that existed back in the beginning of MMO, but more for the fact that they're just outdated systems and we have gone a long way from that. For the most part, the new games today do what all the older games do with much more added improvements (and beyond just prettier 3D models).
There was a lot more monotony back then more than there is now, it's just that many games especially theme-parks have packaged the games in a way trying to break the monotony and provide easy access to ways of enjoying the game usually in the form of combat and questing, currently. Despite how much I would like the industry to move beyond this point, I think it has been a lot better than what was provided back in UO's days.
Part of that old spawn-camping problem was that servers were not powerful enough to add enough spawn. You can add way more content these days to a server, as well as more players.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
As opposed to what, running to a quest hub marked on a mini map, then following the dotted line to the right camp, killing 10, and then running back?
I'd much rather be free to just go where I want, which the mob grinding system allowed. People didn't camp the same room for hours, they usually moved around, because you'd get camp bonus xp if you killed mobs that hadn't been hunted in a long time. And since you're moving around and exploring the dungeon, and each encounter is different, its a bit more exciting. Also, it allows for more socializing, instead of just follow the mini map to quest hub over and over and over.
Tasks you do over and over will alwways be monotonous. At least in the mob grinding, you moved around and explored at your own pace, and you talked with others and had a good time, vs, everyone just running off and soloing "quests". It's gotten so bad that almost every game I try, I see the big stupid ! over an NPC head, pick up the quest, which results in a "Go here on the map, kill 2 of these, and I'll give you this!" and quit thinking "I'm not doing this crap AGAIN for another 50 levels".
Well, reading that first line of your response and comparing that with just sitting in one spot grinding away at the same groups of mobs for hours on end, I would much prefer the quest hub.
The misconception here is that you really weren't that free to go where you want because specific zones were designed for specific levels at about 2-3 zones per every 5th/10th level. This combined with very slow leveling and exp loss upon death (where the cause of death might not be your fault, it could of been 1 of 6-8 other people). There were times where I wanted to beat my head over the keyboard because I wasn't sure whether or not I would ever make it to the next level.
Sure, tasks always will be monotonous but in your first line, you described to me a LIST of tasks as opposed to one simple task. Yes, the questing system is getting old, but it definitely surpasses entertainment value of its predecessors. And if you really prefer a game that provides you with ways to think for yourself and do what you want, why aren't you considering sandboxes and games that do not have these features (which are most inherent in theme-parks).
Some considerations might be EVE Online, Darkfall, Mortal Online. Sure the list is short, but it was just as short back in the day as well (UO, AC and pre-NGE SWG). I'm not seeing what old school games have over newer school.
A lot of that had to do with later expansions. Selling point is often cap increase and the expansion had the mobs to achieve that new level. You get back to base release and first expansion or two, generally it’s rather well mixed.
If games didn't use expansions, they could modify base spawn to reflect the diversity; an evolving environment.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
We aren't saying that you are wrong for what you like. I'm glad that you are able to enjoy the new era of mmorpgs, you aren't the one I'm worried about. You have plenty of top notch games to play atm. The point is that us oldschool players are asking for one decent MMORPG and you say that we have no right to ask for a single game out of hundreds because you don't enjoy the same playstyle as we do.
Most of us in this thread are old-school PVE players, which makes the 3 sandboxes you listed useless to us as they are hardcore PVP games. Vanguard had a very good shot of becoming something great, but with it's horrible release and lack of support it is a ghost land and with no population and no support / future updates there is no MMORPG.
Thing is back in the day each company tried to make things differently from what was already out there. We had MMOs where each game was built on different principles and mechanics. Each company aimed to innovate over what was already done.
Now fast forward to today where each game coming out is nothing more than WoW in a new skin. Innovation has been replaced by stagnation. Where companies would once try something new and different, they now just take what the giant makes, slap a new name on it and change the actors a bit and call it 'New' or 'Next Gen'.
As far as monotony goes, it's in EVERY game in this genre. Camping mob spawns is the same as doing every form of 'Kill 10 Rats' or 'Bring me 10 of (insert item here)' quests availible in newer MMOs. The monotony is the same, its just the method has changed slightly. And once you hit end game in these 'New and Improved' games, you're hitting the same brick wall of grinding bosses for loot. The only difference between then and now is everyone is a winner as opposed to everyone could be a winner. Like how in grade school everyone gets a ribbon for their project because if they didn't it might cause their feelings to be hurt.
Before WoW there were 5 MMOs I can name that while being similar in some ways were vastly different in others. UO, EQ, AC, DAoC, AO. Each game added something new to the genre (EQ being the first MMO to truely make use of 3D graphics on a massive scale, AC making a game that added more depth to character customization, DAoC refining PvP into the RvR format, AO melding a massive world with the first use of instancing technology as well as being the first game to use flight). You also had games like SWG that focused more on living and being a part of a world rather than just playing in one.
Now all we get are games built to be like WoW with heavy use of instancing, emphasis on quest grinding and PvP in the form of Battlegrounds. It's all just become 'Copy/Paste = Win?'.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
The journey and mission is to find where that damned line ends
Pepsi1028
PEPSI!!!!!
Get out of your box already...
You have every right to ask, you have no right whatsoever to demand. If you can convince a developer to make a game for you, more power to you. However, the only way any developer is going to make a game is if the old school players can demonstrate that they have enough numbers and money to warrant the development of a game. If they can't, then no matter how much you want one, chances are slim that you'll ever actually get one.
Welcome to the real world.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None