Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Dark Age of Camelot: What if... Dark Age of Camelot 2
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
MMORPG.com's Garrett Fuller writes this article about the possibility of a follow-up to Mythic's first RvR MMO, and what he would like to see included therein.
)
In many polls on many sites the one game that always comes up for sequel is Dark Age of Camelot. Launched in the pre-WoW era of 2001 DAOC was one of the hottest MMOs before the mainstream hit. Even though Ultima Online really set the ground work for PvP combat, Dark Age of Camelot perfected it and gave it meaning. A game that now lists in the history of MMO players, you hear it referenced many times as a "we wish" or "more like Dark Age of Camelot." Yet somehow the industry lost touch with a game that had a solid player base, a strong PvP system, and some great ideas that never made it into the latter half of the decade. So the question remains; what if Dark Age of Camelot had a sequel?
Imagine the perfect storm, Mythic is now part of Bioware all under the umbrella of EA. In a meeting somewhere among the corporate office someone decides that DAOC should be given its due again. The game having launched in 2001 with its highest numbers in the pre-WoW era of 2002-2003, is now due for a sequel. EA approves, Bioware approves, and Mythic goes to work.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
[Edit]
Nevermind, working now... Going to read!
Come on Garret, your comment on Trials of Atlantis was ridiculous. It was most certainly the demise of DAoC because it gave the people who played all day a huge advantage. The majority of the population just gave up when it was clear there was no way to be competitive without a huge grind in front of them. Mythic was told this a million times and only made token changes.
I can remember a party of hibs(Hibernians) coming and controlling the frontier of the other factions for 3 days. Who wants to compete with such an overpowered group.
Secondly, you missed a major issue with DAoC, the ridiculous CC(crowd control). That is a current issue with WAR too. Mythic seems to be in love with something most of us hate.
I do agree that DAoC had far too many classes. They never did manage to ever balance them. That was the beauty of Wow, the wow developers played DAoC and realize trying to balance so many classes was futile, hence the limited classes in Wow.
I tired the first one and didn't play to long, but with all the hype it sounds like it was great. I need to have people to start with to get into a game, which I didn't then. I would definitely bring some friends and give it a shot.
"cinnamon buns"
- Pickles
Heard a rumor not long ago that Mythic actually did a workup and internal pitch for a DAoC2. EA (shock) back-burnered it.
Maybe we'll see it taken back off the shelf someday.
Good article, you touched on the key points like DF and the expansion sets.
Agree with you on the demise of DAoC, NF did it in for me as well. And the xpacs after ToA were simply not worth mentioning.. mauler class anyone
Totally disagree with the article. DAoC does NOT need a sequel, it needs a graphic / tech upgrade which is doable. Sequels have a HORRIBLE MMO track record
Fans do not want a new game, they want the old game with improvements and upgrades. EVE and City of Heroes are perfect examples of this. That has been made clear so many times it's not funny, only the MMO nomads want brand new sequels so they can rip them to pieces.
DAoC is made with Gamebryo engine, the newer versions of this engine have been used to make Fallout 3, Warhammer and Oblivion.
A new game would be corrupted by todays market expectations and nothing good will come of it.
Upgrading DAoC would cost a fraction of a new title.
MMOs and sequels just don't work out that well. In the end we will end up with a buffoon game like Warhammer.
The comment on Trials of Atlantis was a personal statement, hence the "For me," part. I still played through Trials and did not quit because of it. I know many people who did though which is why the comment was stated accordingly. If a sequel was ever made, I will say this:
There is no place for Trials of Atlantis in a Dark Age of Camelot sequel.
I'd have to hold the opposite opinion on the number of classes. I thought it was great. Those people who are going to look for "the class" for RvR are going to do that no matter how many classes and eschew all others. Those people aren't, however, the only people that play the game (I wouldn't say the majority either). Plenty of people pick a class that "speaks to them" and enjoy it, in and out of RvR, even if it isn't the most optimized.
On that note, I'd say keep the classes. As far as the whole idea, if they made this game and didn't wowify/themepark it and instead patterend it after the original, well, I'd be subscribed to an MMO.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Dont forget that in DAoC each Realm had its Unique skills/effects etc too.
Well they certainly have to do something because WAR is not cutting the mustard for them. I'm just not sure how many are left still hold faith in Mythic to do anything.
I was an avid DAoC player, and I absolutely did quit due to ToA. One week after ToA I hit the cancel button. It was buggy, and it brought raiding into DAoC. The reason I left EQ!!
DAoC 2? It will never happen. Mythic is about as close to death as a studio can be. None of the original talent is there. Not that I would even trust the original team after the debacles of ToA and Labyrinth. Even if they started development I agree with Torak. We saw what happened with WAR. They would just try to WoW it up instead of sticking to what made DAoC great; community. Just look at WAR. They are still fumbling around trying to make it easier, instead of looking for ways to bring players together.
Focus on a game that builds community instead of making a game where one can get to max level as quickly and easily as possible. DAoC had that at one point.
I agree with a previous poster. I would be more than happy if they didnt make a daoc 2 and just gave the original a nice graphics overhaul.
Good article.
However, I have to agree with the previous statements that a true DAoC sequel will never be done, because it can't survive in the modern MMO space.
You spoke of Warhammer's attempt to be more like WoW, and therein lies the issue. The majority of modern MMO players expect MMO's to be like WoW in 2 key areas - Community and PvE.
We can all agree that PvE was substandard in DAoC, even in it's time. If I'm not mistaken, EQ had better PvE content (que Trials of Atlantis, which tried to do much more with PvE, as did Catacombs later with instancing). Players now expect a great PvE game, and development tends to focus on either developing quality PvE content or quality PvP content, and rarely in between shall meet.
Moreover, the grind and difficulty of the game forced (And that is the proper term) players to interact with the community around them just to be able to get to RvR. You had to group with others to level in any sane amount of time. This meant having to get along with others, play well, or be known for not doing either. Players now expect to be able to have solo options for most of their content, so that they can reach max level with minimal interaction with the community.
It's a brave new MMO world, and DAoC, and games like it, aren't where the money is anymore, despite the wishes of some of us, including myself.
Now.. Garrett.. Can you put your feet in the fire and do a "What If.. UO 2"?
There was already raiding in Shrouded Isles, and there was already raiding in the core game (the dragons, the giant in jamtland IIRC).
Maybe it was more like this: ToA killed the PvPers, the /level20 command the newbies, and the elitism around 8vs8 the casuals.
I had much fun in DAoC. But I am not sure, if I would play the same thing again. Maybe a DaoC 2 would be interesting for the post-WoW generation, if they would ever hear of it.
Btw another interesting thing of DAoC´s PvP was: you didn´t got items as a reward, you got additional little active and passive skills which also helped you in PvE. Kind of horizontal content instead of items.
Mythic blew it with WAR, so I don't think they'll be given resources to make Daoc 2.
EA could redo the game, add some ideas, use new engine, do some class balancing - but not in the way of WoWing it up as brostyn said.
This game would be awsome, maybe someday EA will decide to milk this old cow?
Also to quote Garrett ''With MMOs constantly trying to be like World of Warcraft people forget that World of Warcraft was trying to be like Everquest and Dark Age of Camelot when it launched''
Have been wishing for a daoc 2 for ages. A new daoc where they would keep the good stuff and improve/change the bad parts. It is true, realm fighting gave some sense of belonging somewhere to everyone. If they can do it again but bit better I am sure they would get bigger numbers than old daoc. Time will tell but hopefully it won't take too long....
I loved DAoC, and if a sequel came out I would most certaintly try it. However, I agree with Coldren. I don't think a sequel would work in today's post WoW era. You needed guild groups to run your quests for your Epic armor. I remember completing my set and being so proud. Today, that just wouldn't work. Everyone would want soloable quests. Forced group quests that take days to complete wouldn't be welcomed. Also the grind from 49 to 50 was a bit ridiculous. I think I spent a good 12 hours grinding in the frontier. I don't remember how much that got me closer to 50, probably not much. You also had to queue up for groups, and you might be waiting a couple hours until someone drops group. I don't particurally miss that. However, once you got 50 you did have a certain since of accomplishment.
I would love a DAoC 2, that returned to its roots.
Sadly, Mythic has proven dozens of times over the past 5 years that they are simply incapable of returning to the roots that made it great. They keep piling more junk to fix the initial junk, and bury themselves with it. They don't KNOW what made the old game great it seems. I can almost promise DAOC 2 would be a giant mess, removing core ideas, and putting in WoW ideas. Hell, they already did that to original DAoC.
The stupid archery system, RAMPS in castles, putting in a quest grind with glowing ! over NPC heads, destroying immersion and group cohesiveness, instancing the hell out of everything, again destroying the social side of PvE, too many battlegrounds, breaking the balance with every expansion so that people would buy it to play the new overpowered class, removing tanks from being viable, adding teleporters EVERYWHERE, added a /map, I'm shocked at just how many bad ideas started flowing like water after the Trials of Atlantis expansion.
If they just rewound DAoC to the Shrouded Isles days, gave it a new coat of paint, polished up the leveling, added in public quests, tightened up the battlegrounds, removed /map (like it was at launch), removed all the teleporters, putting back in the necklace ceremony, improving upon the naval combat aspect, that'd be sequel worthy.
Two things I felt were subtle, but great things in DAoC, both involve combat.
When you were in a good group, you KNEW it. In a decent group, you could of course, pull higher level monsters for more loot and experience, and handle a few of them.
GREAT groups, you could almost nonstop pull WAVES of purple+++ monsters and kill them with ease. You truly felt unstoppable, because you were mowing these baddies down so quickly, and the exp ran in rivers.
And the combat in that game, it was KINETIC. You had to be right up against your opponent to hit him, none of this, stand 10 feet away and melee the air stuff in LotRO and other modern MMOs. Your sword would actually look like it hit your enemy, the enemy would flinch, or it'd do a block animation. The recoil and animations were good enough that it almost didn't seem auto attack based, especially with the quick reactionary chains.
So, while you were mowing down this large group of monsters, you really felt like you were smashing them.
A few more things, when items dropped on the ground, they displayed in the world (same for decorating your house) so if the mob dropped a sword, there it was shiny on the ground.
DAoC supported a healthy balance for those who liked PvE, crafting, AND PvP. Raiding was done as recreational fun usually, not a second job, cause most people were concerned with the frontier, and items gotten from raids weren't game changing, cause you could get comparable items from crafters, the crafted items just didn't glow and sparkle.
I just KNOW if Mythic got their hands on DAoC too they'd make it a WoW knock off, a game with some instanced PvP, and not a virtual world like DAoC was. The vistas and atmosphere in Albion were so immersive. I know Mythic would add in junk like quest hubs, people standing around with big ! over their head, tellilng you exactly what your reward is gonna be in a cute little box, add in some silly xbox live achievement system that doesn't tie in with the lore at all, break the world into a series of linear instances, bleck.
And for those that want to know what killed DAoC...
/level 20 command for anyone with a level 50, killing the incoming newb population who had no one to group with, and bloated the battlegrounds.
ToA killed off endless amounts of PvPers who didn't want to grind another 9 months to get gear to compete in RvR, after going through the 1-50 grind.
And the ToA gear shifted balance to the caster classes and made it impossible to survive as anything else.
Ahhh.. Epic armor. I remember the coordination it took to get all the people needed to complete the Paladin epic armor quest. Thankfully, I had a friend who had more social ties than I had. He helped me out a lot in getting people down there. Made a lot of new friends that day.
The flip side of that was, if you were around that area and people asked for help, most of the time, complete strangers would show up and help you get it, because they knew someday they would need help too.
Good memories, good times.
Upgrade the original, remake it into a new game, I'd give it a go if it was contained most of the design concepts that made the orginal game great.
But I don't think such a game would ever generate anthing near WOW-like subs, and EA isn't known for catering to niche markets, they've been staring at Blizzard with bitter envy for years now hence their all or nothing approach with SWTOR.
Our best hope would be for EA to sell the franchise off, or let some former Mythic execs (the smart ones) take the license back and develop it on their own and it might have a chance.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
i just downloaded the 10 day free trial of DAoC the other day after reading an article similiar to this one.
i played DAoC at launch for a few months and it was great but eq1 was my main game so i went back to it.
the DAoC i played the other day was nothing like the launch version i played. i thought i downloaded wow accidently, just with a lot clunkier controls. wtf mythic....
what the hell is wrong with all these damn gaming companies! STOP TRYIN TO MIMIC WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know I am repeating myself, but I have to say that again... The key problem between old school MMO and since-WoW MMO is the target audience... Game designed for teenagers won't give adults that kind of content needed for them to be happy players. Definitely not for long.
If there was DAoC2 made, it would target teenagers (since it's major game buying force)... and would be just another WoWism like WH.
I am afraid there is no chance for DAoC 2 to be DAoC 2 as we imagine it. Not unless someone went very rich and quite insane to pay and oversee whole development process and remove dependancy on crap like EA and 'most profitting target audience'.
And better than having WoWDaoC I rather keep my best gaming memories and share them with a bunch of very good friends I made in DAoC.
There were many flaws in DAoC, but overall the result was that DAoC imho is the closest to being ultimate MMO.
Honza, Paladin RR7L9, proud member of Herfølge Boldklub, Excalibur, Dark Age of Camelot ... retired
Dear mythic, read this, do this.
Well see, I think it'd generate a very VERY large amount of subs, just for being a new shiny, and then the oldschool MMOers/ the PvP players would stay with it.
What most people, and almost all publishers don't understand is you don't need to aim for the WoW market. DAoC 2 would almost instantly pull in 500k+ old veterans that were in the original game. That's more subs than most WoW clones ever sustain.
You just have to manage your budget, don't pump 100 million into a game you expect 500k subs for. Set realistic expectations.
Original DAoC was made with 30 people. It can be done. Just I don't trust EA Mythic to do it.
DAoC 2, if done "right", would instantly be my new game.
I played DAoC for a couple years from a month or three after launch, until right before whatever the x-pac after ToA was, and I enjoyed every minute of it. I totally disagree that DAoC PvE wasn't any good...while it certainly isn't a "LoTRO" in regards to PvE, but it isn't (insert game w/ terrible PvE here) either. Of course, DAoC's unique blend of PvP was where it was at. When I first started playing DAoC I had a distaste for PvP as it had always been fairly pointless in games up to that point. DAoC was one of the first games to give PvP meaning, w/ unique settings w/ specific goals, and rewards.
I can't say I've ever really been as disapointed w/ any game as I was w/ WAR, I was expecting DAoC in the awesome Warhammer setting, and it....wasn't that. I have to admit though that my disapointment was mainly due to my inflated, and in hindsight, misplaced expectations. It's not that WAR is a bad game, b/c it's really not, it's just not what people were expecting and/or hoping for. I personally wanted more DAoC, and less WoW, but it turned out to be the opposite. WAR is a fun game for the most part, the classes are enjoyable, and the combat isn't bad, it's just, IMHO, a poor mix of scenarios and open-world RvR. WAR's original design was actually all scenarios and no open-world PvP, but the early beta-testers railed against what they got and thus that long halt in beta testing, while they tried to redesign the game w/ open-world PvP/RvR thrown in the mix. Eh.
If would've just taken the DAoC design documents, updated it slightly, and applied the Warhammer lore in place of the Camelot/Hibernia/Midgard lore, I think they'd have an awesome game on their hands that people would've played.
Hell, if they take the DAoC and just update it slightly in terms of gameplay and graphics, I'd be all over that piece. Sadly though, there has been an exodus from Mythic over the past few years, culminating w/ Mark Jacobs, so I don't know if the talent that remains is up to the task. Jeff Hickman, one of the main devs from DAoC days is still there, but beyond him <shrug>. Of course, w/ Mythic now being part of BioWare they should have what they need, but the question that remains is whether or not EA would ever greenlight an MMO that they aren't expecting WoW-like numbers from again...