Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Lead Combat Dev Makes the Case Against Skill Based Leveling

245

Comments

  • Wharg0ulWharg0ul Member Posts: 4,183

    Originally posted by Anubisan

    I actually totally agree with him on this point. In pretty much every skill-based MMO I have ever played, people have resorted to extremely silly activities to level skills. I remember sitting in my house in UO macroing fire field and walking back and fourth to build magic resist. Or trapping monsters inside the house with boxes so that I could practice my weapons on them in safety.

    Or in Darkfall, running into a wall all night while casting self-heal to increase run, sprint, self-heal and lesser magic all at the same time. Or the ever-popular swimming into a wall to increase stats. And there are FAR more macros and/or exploits like these in Darkfall that people take advantage of to improve their characters.

    And then of course there is the balance issue. With classes, it is at least possible for developers to balance different character archetypes against each other to at least some degree. When too much freedom is given in terms of skills, some players will always be massively imbalanced towards others... which then leads everyone to adopt the same character build in order to compete. Developers are then forced to implement a nerf of that build and everyone gets pissed off and migrates to the new most powerful build.

    I think these are just unfortunate side-effects of skill-based leveling systems. As much as I love games that use skill-based character progression, I think they may not be worth the trouble. The problems are probably not really solvable without going the level-up route...

     this is gonna shock some people......but I completely agree with this post here.

    Although I have played a couple skill based systems that worked rather well (Neocron, and technically Anarchy Online), for the most part it just doesn't translate well in a game.

    Yes, it's more realistic and natural....but it almost always causes rediculous issues, as we've seen in Darkfall, SWG, and many others.

    And so, sadly, I must admit that I have been proven wrong, and that Anubisan and the OP are correct. Yes, a skill based system COULD be done properly....but at what cost?? A million sub-routines of code that bog down the game, and extend development into infinity in an attempt to prevent any and all forseeable issues...only to inevitably fail anyway??

    Waste of time and money. I'd be more for a combination of systems, personally, such as:

    XP gained through killing, crafting, and questing, as WELL as a natural accumulation over time. Once a player gains a level, X amount of skill points may be distributed by the player however they see fit. Maybe some skills take more advancement points to level than others, etc. Only X amount of skill points may be spent on any one character, preventing any toon from being a jack-of-all-trades, wit some skills working actively against each other (leveling one skill at the cost of points in another opposing skill, etc.)

    This seems to be a good compromise, IMO. Yeah, it could use a little more refinement, but I think it could be a good foundation for a flexable, fun system.

    image

  • AsleepAsleep Member UncommonPosts: 96

    He is right on point, which is a big reason I like DDO, you can't bot DDO. I have played to cap and to the top of many games that can be cheated, nothing but design is goin to stop us from cheating btw, thats just how it is. People always ask on here for skill based systems with open worlds and no instances, when all the exp of these systems have been horrible. Maybe in the future this will change, but for now, very well made classes and instances that are not just another routine tank and spank will do far more for entertainment value imo.

    You are going to see more of this, very well thought out instances before you see the most epic skill based open world that fixes all the issues they have, botting/macroing/exploting.

    I'm hoping for a very nice combat system, with alot of endgame content, and content that is well thought out and takes some group skill to master, something that is actually fun, I don't want to camp spawns, I don't want to interact meaninglessly with something to skill up.

  • EzhaeEzhae Member UncommonPosts: 735

    You do realize the point of the BioWare guys post was that while making a proper skill-based leveling system is quite possible its pretty much wasted time from developement point of view?

    To make it so that it neither can be exploited through macros, nor lead to idiotic situations as described in his post would take a lot fo time coding and testing every single bit of it andin the end would change so little in regards of actual enjoyment form game its just not worth it.

    Frankly, the level-based system works fine for mmos, i have my PnP RPGs for skill-based consequences driven character developement when GM can just tell me what skills i can upgrade based on what my char did in the session. MMOs are to be fun, not to cater to a whim of few hardcores. 

  • BoneflowerBoneflower Member Posts: 91

    His examples are completely valid, of course. However, using them as an argument for level/class systems versus skill systems makes no sense and is disingenious. 

     

    Games as a whole are full of exactly these sorts of unrealistic activities and illogical behaviours. You can't and won't get rid of them regardless of what system you use for your game. In addition, how are the unrealistic impositions on gameplay brought to the table by level-based class systems any different or more realistic? With most class systems you cannot change your class...what? I can't change my job? In real life this idea is laughable considering most people change jobs more often than pants these days. I am sorry, my love, but you can't help me build the deck for our house...I am a master carpenter and you are a novice, so you are of no use to me at all. Go find someone who is building a birdhouse to help. What? How are level-based grouping and experience systems at all realistic? These are just a couple of examples off the top of my head to illustrate that the argument made cuts through any and all game systems, regardless of your personal preferences. It's the nature of building limited simulations of realty versus reality itself.

  • eburneburn Member Posts: 740

    Again. No one really goes to Bioware for mechanic innovations. They polish what's out there and have knack at telling cool stories.

    I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.

  • warlock89warlock89 Member Posts: 5

    Originally posted by eburn



    Again. No one really goes to Bioware for mechanic innovations. They polish what's out there and have knack at telling cool stories.


     

    Well that's one post i fully agree to.

  • XianthosXianthos Member Posts: 723

    Originally posted by eburn



    Again. No one really goes to Bioware for mechanic innovations. They polish what's out there and have knack at telling cool stories.


     

    You dont have to be innovative. There are plenty of systems / designs which you could steal and polish and you got some awesome game. You just need to know whats worth of stealing :S

    EvE doors

    See the best doors on EvE-on!

  • KorithianKorithian Member Posts: 243

      What is a little strange is that Star Wars galaxies had a skilled based system that incororated xp into it. Well at least originally, if you wanted to get better with pistols you had to use pistols and then get pistol xp. You want to be a better medic you have to heal people, yeah sure it was open to a little exploitation such as healing someone many many times or afking dancing to get your dancing xp up.

     

       But it ment that if you wanted to be good at x or y or z you had to perform x or y or z. Not kill 1000 rats with a club and then find your diplomacy skill has improved along with your level. Now I don't want to say his right or worng about skill based games but the repeative argument can easily be leveled against level games where you repeat the same blood grind hundreads of times to get the xp to make it to next level. So I don't see how a level based game is more realistic and if they are much for a muchness then surely swiming to improve swimming and fighting with a club to improve club use is more realistic than killing 1000 rats with a club to improve my fireball spell.

  • eburneburn Member Posts: 740

    Originally posted by Xianthos



    Originally posted by eburn



    Again. No one really goes to Bioware for mechanic innovations. They polish what's out there and have knack at telling cool stories.


     

    You dont have to be innovative. There are plenty of systems / designs which you could steal and polish and you got some awesome game. You just need to know whats worth of stealing :S


     

    Considering it's what 30+ million people have used before and have done so for an unpresidented amount of time (5 years or so) it'd be hard to argue against it. I could personally. There's a lot of things I'd do differently, but considering the development probably started with a specific goal (let's get a Star Wars story worth telling to players I would assume) it's already going to change the status quo enough.

    150 million is a big estimate tho' for just story telling innovation I agree, but I won't pretend like I know enough about to industry to say the money spent on building an atmosphere and getting the 'cinema experience' up to par would have been better spent in trying to reinvent a play-style that HAS BEEN proven successful.

    And if people hate WoW enough to say 'it's not been successful' then I offer them a link to http://www.dictionary.com and to look up the term.

    I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.

  • uohaloranuohaloran Member Posts: 811

    So his real argument against skill based is that it can be easily exploited? That's pretty weak. If they're going to be pushing the envelope so much, why don't they take it into their hands to fix it?

    That particular dev may have background with Meridian 59, but take a look at when that game was released. That's not a valid excuse in my book. These things should evolve.

    It would've been better to just not mention it, really. Both systems are flawed.

  • Xondar123Xondar123 Member CommonPosts: 2,543

    Originally posted by gevrik

    So instead of trying to find ways to make the mentioned actions not desirable to players to level their skills they just go for the usual grindy leveling bullcrap. That will cause exactly the same situation that he describes. People will use macros to grind their way through low-level mobs to gain their levels. Welcome to another lazy developer corner.

    I imagine that it would be incredibly difficult to ever do this, and you'd have to place unreasonable expectations on the game mechanics to do it.

    How do you prevent a guy from throwing himself off a cliff over and over to raise his safe falling skill? I guess you could put a timer on it, 30 seconds, 60 maybe. But then he'll just make a macro to throw himsef off a cliff every 60 seconds.

    I, personally, like the idea of leveling up skills through those skills use, but I also think it would take a lot of hard work to make a viable system that can't be exploited out the wazoo. It would only really be worth it to do so with a game built from the ground up to focus on leveling skills in the manner, which SWTOR was not built to be.

  • aleosaleos Member UncommonPosts: 1,943

    even when someone leaves the keyboard to go do something else while being attacked by low level mobs to slowly gain defense xp....they are still logged into the game. It gives us something to do when we need to take a break but don't really take a break. Then when we think its been long enough we go back check out our stats. then go do something within the game world. I know because i used to do this all the time.

    If someone wants to frolic through a field of daisies to take up their jump and poison stats who are you to judge them. They are paying a monthly fee to take up whatever stats they want when they want why don't who ever is looking at them mind their own buisness. maybe thats what all these shitty games are missing. a means to an end.

  • fansedefansede Member UncommonPosts: 960

    My first reaction was - DDO avoided the whole macro skill situation. However, I am not playing DDO anymore.  A big reason, because I was grinding instances. Soon the adventure became a chore. I don't enjoy chores. I enjoy gaming experiences.

  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Member Posts: 5,056

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Well, as someone else already said, there are good options to leveling skills through their use which EVE and other games have employed.

    As for people who macro, I would think it to be somewhat simple to code in a diminishing returns system so that if you did the same action too often, (through macroing) you'd quickly get no gain from it.  Sure, I suppose someone could always code in a more complicated macro, but still I think work along this line would provide a decent alternative.

    But the real kicker for me in this article was

    "In a classic XP/Level based system, you are incentivizing your XP-granting behaviors (which in SWTOR is tilted strongly towards questing)."

    I knew they were going to create complex storylines, but I had hoped advancement wouldnt' be so strongly tied to completing the quests.  I'm pretty much done with the "quest to advance your level" mechanic, (it just fragments the community too much, but is great if you want to solo adventure) so there's a pretty strong chance I'll be passing on this game afterall.

    Certain people keep saying it's too early to tell, but more and more the game IS looking like a single-player game with some multiplayer options.

     

     

    As for skill-based 'learn-by-doing' systems - they are extremely prone to exploiting. People are remarkably ingenious in getting around safeguards to prevent it. Can it be designed to be very exploit-free? Yes. Are people who want skill-based systems eager to exploit them? Some are, sure.

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Member Posts: 5,056

    Originally posted by Xondar123

    I imagine that it would be incredibly difficult to ever do this, and you'd have to place unreasonable expectations on the game mechanics to do it.

    How do you prevent a guy from throwing himself off a cliff over and over to raise his safe falling skill? I guess you could put a timer on it, 30 seconds, 60 maybe. But then he'll just make a macro to throw himsef off a cliff every 60 seconds.

    Include a random chance to die from any damaging fall.

    I, personally, like the idea of leveling up skills through those skills use, but I also think it would take a lot of hard work to make a viable system that can't be exploited out the wazoo. It would only really be worth it to do so with a game built from the ground up to focus on leveling skills in the manner, which SWTOR was not built to be.

    Agreed. It can be done, but unless a skill-based system is a core feature of the game, it's not worth the trouble to do so.

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Member Posts: 5,056

    Originally posted by uohaloran

    So his real argument against skill based is that it can be easily exploited? That's pretty weak. If they're going to be pushing the envelope so much, why don't they take it into their hands to fix it?

    Well, because they are not going to be 'pushing the envelope'. Other than a massive amount of voice acting, what have they shown that is innovative? Flashpoints? Another single-player game aspect.

    Oh, maybe that is the innovation - pay a sub fee for a single-player game.

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,086

    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

    Originally posted by uohaloran

    So his real argument against skill based is that it can be easily exploited? That's pretty weak. If they're going to be pushing the envelope so much, why don't they take it into their hands to fix it?

    Well, because they are not going to be 'pushing the envelope'. Other than a massive amount of voice acting, what have they shown that is innovative? Flashpoints? Another single-player game aspect.

    Oh, maybe that is the innovation - pay a sub fee for a single-player game.

    Too late, Cryptic already has cornered the market for that design.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • NytakitoNytakito Member Posts: 381

    Suppose I can go either way on this... EVE probably has my favorite skill system in a game to date; probably because the only grind in that game is the grind to make ISK whereas other games who try to implement skill based systems always turn into a skill grind, Darkfall being the example most will relate to.

    I think they could have made it work, but it sounds like me that with a price tag of $150M, that wheel was to risky to re-invent.

    "If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford

  • AnubisanAnubisan Member UncommonPosts: 1,798

    Originally posted by Nytakito

    Suppose I can go either way on this... EVE probably has my favorite skill system in a game to date; probably because the only grind in that game is the grind to make ISK whereas other games who try to implement skill based systems always turn into a skill grind, Darkfall being the example most will relate to.

    I think they could have made it work, but it sounds like me that with a price tag of $150M, that wheel was to risky to re-invent.

    EVE does the skill-based approach in a unique way that no one else does to my knowledge. Skills take a set amount of time to advance and it will occur no matter if you are online or off. Skills must be researched in order to advance them... it doesn't depend on you performing a certain action over and over again. That right there prevents people from flying their ship into a space-station wall all night while macroing to grind some skill up.

    Of course EVE's skill progression mechanics annoy me in other ways. For instance, there is no way someone can advance more quickly than anyone else according to the time or effort they expend in game. Their character will advance at the same speed as everyone else regardless. Unfortunately that pisses me off too. If I spend 8 hours in game working hard at something, I want to progress according to that effort. This can be done in a level-based game and a wacky skill-based game, but not in EVE... which I personally find infuriating.

    Again it comes back to level-based games just working better than skill-based ones simply because they avoid these problems.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,197

    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

    Originally posted by uohaloran

    So his real argument against skill based is that it can be easily exploited? That's pretty weak. If they're going to be pushing the envelope so much, why don't they take it into their hands to fix it?

    Well, because they are not going to be 'pushing the envelope'. Other than a massive amount of voice acting, what have they shown that is innovative? Flashpoints? Another single-player game aspect.

    Oh, maybe that is the innovation - pay a sub fee for a single-player game.

     

    Yet all the new MMOs are doing it.  GW2 -- "Instances will still be used to further storytelling within the game and for missions and dungeons"

     

    FFXIV  :  "Yes the story is defiantly very important for FF14. We will have high quality cutscenes with voiceovers and fx, please look forward to it."

     

    Oh my, it looks like all the MMO's seem to want to become single player games.  

     

    Because voice overs and story = single player, right?



  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Member Posts: 5,056

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter


    Originally posted by uohaloran

    So his real argument against skill based is that it can be easily exploited? That's pretty weak. If they're going to be pushing the envelope so much, why don't they take it into their hands to fix it?

    Well, because they are not going to be 'pushing the envelope'. Other than a massive amount of voice acting, what have they shown that is innovative? Flashpoints? Another single-player game aspect.

    Oh, maybe that is the innovation - pay a sub fee for a single-player game.

     

    Yet all the new MMOs are doing it.  GW2 -- "Instances will still be used to further storytelling within the game and for missions and dungeons"

     

    FFXIV  :  "Yes the story is defiantly very important for FF14. We will have high quality cutscenes with voiceovers and fx, please look forward to it."

     

    Oh my, it looks like all the MMO's seem to want to become single player games.  

    Three is "all"?

     

     

    Because voice overs and story = single player, right?

    Yes.

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • CzargioCzargio Member Posts: 183

    It seems they're taking the easy route.

    Level based systems are easy, they don't cause a big guffaw, and they're straightforward. They also don't make a lick of sense, and segregate games into beginning and end.

    I say take the hard route and go with skills. Every problem of macroing or doing something over and over can be solved with ingenuity, or just a simple mechanic. Put enough incentives on the right way, and people might not even do the cheap way.

    I'm a firm believer in skill based systems, but I also know they're a lot harder. People point to the fact that there are a lot less skill based systems that work. That may be true, but that is because level based systems are so much easier to make, that rather than try something new, most devs will take the road more traveled.

  • CzargioCzargio Member Posts: 183

    Originally posted by Anubisan

    Originally posted by Nytakito

    Suppose I can go either way on this... EVE probably has my favorite skill system in a game to date; probably because the only grind in that game is the grind to make ISK whereas other games who try to implement skill based systems always turn into a skill grind, Darkfall being the example most will relate to.

    I think they could have made it work, but it sounds like me that with a price tag of $150M, that wheel was to risky to re-invent.

    EVE does the skill-based approach in a unique way that no one else does to my knowledge. Skills take a set amount of time to advance and it will occur no matter if you are online or off. Skills must be researched in order to advance them... it doesn't depend on you performing a certain action over and over again. That right there prevents people from flying their ship into a space-station wall all night while macroing to grind some skill up.

    Of course EVE's skill progression mechanics annoy me in other ways. For instance, there is no way someone can advance more quickly than anyone else according to the time or effort they expend in game. Their character will advance at the same speed as everyone else regardless. Unfortunately that pisses me off too. If I spend 8 hours in game working hard at something, I want to progress according to that effort. This can be done in a level-based game and a wacky skill-based game, but not in EVE... which I personally find infuriating.

    Again it comes back to level-based games just working better than skill-based ones simply because they avoid these problems.

    That is exactly how I feel about Eve too. It avoids the problems of people unfairly raising skills, but it also prevents people from fairly raising skills at different rates. I think it's a good example that shows that there is an audience for skill based systems, but I'm waiting for something a little different.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,197

    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

    Originally posted by maskedweasel


    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter


    Originally posted by uohaloran

    So his real argument against skill based is that it can be easily exploited? That's pretty weak. If they're going to be pushing the envelope so much, why don't they take it into their hands to fix it?

    Well, because they are not going to be 'pushing the envelope'. Other than a massive amount of voice acting, what have they shown that is innovative? Flashpoints? Another single-player game aspect.

    Oh, maybe that is the innovation - pay a sub fee for a single-player game.

     

    Yet all the new MMOs are doing it.  GW2 -- "Instances will still be used to further storytelling within the game and for missions and dungeons"

     

    FFXIV  :  "Yes the story is defiantly very important for FF14. We will have high quality cutscenes with voiceovers and fx, please look forward to it."

     

    Oh my, it looks like all the MMO's seem to want to become single player games.  

    Three is "all"?

     

     

    Because voice overs and story = single player, right?

    Yes.

    The Secret World : "an MMO focusing on narrative (with fully voiced cutscenes, no less). No leveling, no specific character classes"

     

    How many other AAA MMOs are coming out that we have enough information on?  Not too many. The Agency and DCUO?  Console MMOs -- I guess we can consider those being single player with multiplayer options too.

     

    In fact, I can level through most MMOs solo, so, we can count those as well.

     

    Its amazing how many MMOs suddenly become single player games when you're trying to discredit them based on a skewed view of what makes a game an MMO.  Thats your opinion though, I'm not discrediting you in any way, I just fail to see how every game is now a single player game simply with the addition of voice acting... but I suppose we all have our fetishes :)



  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,197

    Originally posted by Rhoklaw

    Originally posted by Czargio


    Originally posted by Anubisan


    Originally posted by Nytakito

    Suppose I can go either way on this... EVE probably has my favorite skill system in a game to date; probably because the only grind in that game is the grind to make ISK whereas other games who try to implement skill based systems always turn into a skill grind, Darkfall being the example most will relate to.

    I think they could have made it work, but it sounds like me that with a price tag of $150M, that wheel was to risky to re-invent.

    EVE does the skill-based approach in a unique way that no one else does to my knowledge. Skills take a set amount of time to advance and it will occur no matter if you are online or off. Skills must be researched in order to advance them... it doesn't depend on you performing a certain action over and over again. That right there prevents people from flying their ship into a space-station wall all night while macroing to grind some skill up.

    Of course EVE's skill progression mechanics annoy me in other ways. For instance, there is no way someone can advance more quickly than anyone else according to the time or effort they expend in game. Their character will advance at the same speed as everyone else regardless. Unfortunately that pisses me off too. If I spend 8 hours in game working hard at something, I want to progress according to that effort. This can be done in a level-based game and a wacky skill-based game, but not in EVE... which I personally find infuriating.

    Again it comes back to level-based games just working better than skill-based ones simply because they avoid these problems.

    That is exactly how I feel about Eve too. It avoids the problems of people unfairly raising skills, but it also prevents people from fairly raising skills at different rates. I think it's a good example that shows that there is an audience for skill based systems, but I'm waiting for something a little different.

     

    There is no happy medium, you either go with level based classes which are boring or you go with semi-exploitable skill based systems which open up player choices.

    I think both choices are subject to their own pluses and minuses.  Guild wars for example had a leveling and class based system, but the skills were the tools build your character set.  In the end there were certain builds people chose over others based on these skills -- early on some being more powerful then others.  In every game its a give or take, I don't think theres a specific choice that is "right" or "wrong".  I think that its all dependent on the execution. 

     

    Level based classes don't have to be boring, and skill based systems aren't always open to more player choices in comparison.  This is the basic pitfall of any game really.  You just never notice it so much in single player games because very rarely will AI utilize the extent of the skills that are given to them.



Sign In or Register to comment.