It is as the poster I quoted stated - lazy developer.
I'm sure if he was a gamer, he would put more effort into it.
You know, getting paid to make games is a dream job - like being an astronaut, or a pro athlete - IF you like games to begin with. It certainly would be for me. I love games - both playing, and talking about them.
If not, it's just another job you half-ass your way through to get a paycheck. The results speak for themselves. There are a lot of people in the industry now only working for a paycheck.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Pre-CU SWG had a fine skill-based system, and it worked. I have a buddy who plays Darkfall, and it's sad to watch him "level up." He has Darkfall installed where we work, and he's done things like auto-run into a wall, shoot arrows into a wall, etc. He just macros it and goes back to work. How is that, in any regard, fun at all? How is that, in any regard, a way of rewarding a player for effort? There's no effort at all.
Sorry Tao.. I was there on Day 1 for SWG, and the skill based system was a great concept, but it was far from perfect.. so much so, that it lead to the CU patch, which opened a whole new can of worms.. LOL As for the macro'ing.. OMG, I think SWG was the KING of macro-botting.. 50% of the player base was AFK botting.. It was horrid.. I prefer distictive classes, because when you go to skill based, it's just a matter of time that every DPS is using the same template, and ever TANK is using the same template.. etc etc..
Same here, can't see how someone could use SWG as an argument against the OP. It's skill system was decent sure, but macroing was rampant within it. Tumbling, spot camping, etc..... Was all done on a macro, hell you could loot whore with macros in galaxies, as most used to do in Nyax's bunker. Half the players I came across in galaxies were AFK macroing.
You're also right about FOTM templates.
Take out Macros then........ FFS people use your brains!
True macros are made outside of the game. You can program your computer to make mouse clicks, input commands, and repeat it without need for ingame support.
A lot of MMOs offer their own macro systems to help control that.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
It is as the poster I quoted stated - lazy developer.
I'm sure if he was a gamer, he would put more effort into it.
You know, getting paid to make games is a dream job - like being an astronaut, or a pro athlete - IF you like games to begin with. It certainly would be for me. I love games - both playing, and talking about them.
If not, it's just another job you half-ass your way through to get a paycheck. The results speak for themselves. There are a lot of people in the industry now only working for a paycheck.
Very true. And that list of "it's a job" developers grows every day. We are no longer in the "old days" of gamers making games they themselves would want to play, but are in the "new days" of suits forcused on $ making games for a market demographic.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
I just have to say that I hope the devs have original ideas. The leveling is the key part of the game, I think it is time to see something different. Actually I hate greeding and having to spend hours at the keyboard to improve my character, there appear macros because the game is boring. If there was how to turn the leveling a motivating thing, where I can progress naturally, I dont say increasing levels it dont increase the coefficient of difficulty, but without the excessive spend of time which exists in some games which makes it repetitive and monotonous. Otherwise I will not waste time with a copy of what already exists. Apart from a game I also have a real life, I dont live only for greeding and be a slave to a virtual world, they can build things for the players fun and not for give an second job.
I guess it just goes back to the absolute point of, the players can only do what you develope for them to do in the game.
If the players dont mind jumping off a cliff 100 times, if theyre willing to do that, if they want to do that and maybe enjoy it, then its fine. Otherwise no, Id guess its not the absolute greatest way to progress. This arguement always ends in preference, no matter how many ways you put it to someone, in the end, it goes towards what the player prefers. You could probably argue that about any system you put into your game.
The EVE rebuttal to this Devs post is obvious. Once that may not be so obvious is that skills themselves dont have to have levels. You can either jump or you cant. You can either use a greatsword or you cant. You can either swim or run or fall, or you cant.
So take SWG, why not instead of having xp to get levels which unlock new powers, or have powers which you level up to unlock new powers (like darkfall), you either BUY the skills you want, EARN the skills by completing quests (the skill is the reward), or get rid of progression, start with whatever skills you want (with a cap so everyone is different) and then design a game that is fun because its fun to immerse yourself, rather than simply grind your character.
The EVE rebuttal to this Devs post is obvious. Once that may not be so obvious is that skills themselves dont have to have levels. You can either jump or you cant. You can either use a greatsword or you cant. You can either swim or run or fall, or you cant.
So take SWG, why not instead of having xp to get levels which unlock new powers, or have powers which you level up to unlock new powers (like darkfall), you either BUY the skills you want, EARN the skills by completing quests (the skill is the reward), or get rid of progression, start with whatever skills you want (with a cap so everyone is different) and then design a game that is fun because its fun to immerse yourself, rather than simply grind your character.
I'm not saying I wouldn't play your game, but most people wouldn't.
People like to feel they are making progress somehow.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Skill based worked in Ultima Online because you could macro or grind your skills to GM (Max) in a couple of hours or a day. In that sense, progression was easy and not the main focus of the game.
Thusly progression wasn't nearly as important so it was OK to be able to grind up your skills and stats doing stupid and worthless things.
To grind your stealth and hiding skills you would just afk walk in circle around town, gaining Hiding skill every time your macro told you to Hide and gaining stealth for the few seconds you were walking in circles while in stealth.
Most people would grind melee fighting skills and their associated companion skills at the infamous "Bone wall" in one of the early dungeons - you'd literally camp the exact same door into a room full of skeletons and they'd walk up to you one by one and die over and over again.
Every few minutes you'd have to use bandages, which you guessed it, grinded up your Bandage skills...
I did like the system SWG used to use, but for non-combat professions you ended up doing a lot of the same afk-macro'ing that you'd do in UO to grind up enough XP to purchase your next box. AFK dancing/music macros, AFK camping macros... even early on for Scouting you would just walk up hills and steep slopes to gain XP for your Pathfinding skills or whatever they are...
As much as I love skill-based progression, there is a lot of crap associated with it.
As nice as it is to be gaining new skills and new ranks in EvE right now as I sit here at work due to their time-based skill system, when I go home and play today (if the gf lets me!) I won't be actively advancing my character's skills.
As long as the leveling / XP system is properly balanced and curved, and the choices we make when gaining a new level in terms of "talent' point selection and the newly announced advanced class paths and abilities gained etc. is fun and interesting and entertaining, I'm all for it.
Also in terms of a role based PvE and PvP class game, knowing what capabilities a specific class has allows easier formation of groups. I can't believe they wouldn't have some sort of dual-spec system in place as well.
Damion Schubert is right on the money. I've never seen a use-base skill progression game that did not make its gameworld seem outright stupid and boring. I've played many of them and to my surprise I've found even myself doing stupid and boring things like jumping every second (more than your regular FPS bunny-hopper), casting the same spell for hours on end, and yes, even taping down skill keys to read a book "till I get there" - and I'm much more of a lore/story kinda guy... You can try to justify that in some misguided real-to-reel translation model, but it just does not work in a game in terms of creativity, in terms of entertainment value, and in terms of gameworld logic. If there really is a lazy progression system, it sure is this one.
And, no surprise, when you step into such a game you see the vast majority of players do this to the effect that when you walk around, you find "people" jumping around, running against a wall or standing in a corner and self casting for hours... It looks less like a game and more like a pro group of game testers trying to break the game and find bugs - it's a huge turnoff.
The game that did get the skill-based progression right, in my opinion, is EVE, and it's not use-based progression; it's time-based progression, so you don't see people doing repetitively silly things - as a result its universe has this coolness to it that's not destroyed by unrealistic player behaviour.
When you don't force people to jump for hours, they don't jump for hours. They jump when they need to. It makes sense.
Problem isn't skill based system itself but how it is implemented. Developers should learn something from bodybuilding.
Firstly doing something many times doesn't improve you, It's actually quite opposite. Overtraining leads to muscle tearing and other issues. Muscle needs just enough trainning to get max out of growth, anything more is often leading negative effect.
Secondly most common moves affect many muscles, not just single. Often skill based systems are affecting single or only few points.
So to be better game designer they should do more bodybuilding *slow GoW walking*
I'm extremely disappointed. That was a half-assed response from the TOR developer. Skill based systems are no more related to their method of progression than a level based system is. To assume that all skill based systems would be based on leveling the skill via use is asinine.
Examples of alternatives are:
1) Spend XP: When you kill monsters/complete quests, you get XP to spend on skills. Therefore, you may have a slowfall skill, but intentionally hurling yourself off a cliff won't level it. Honestly though, people who are good at falling from great heights in real life, DO throw themselves off things to increase their skill. Things like jump should never be based off a skill (unless jump = slowfall) as the only way to get better at "jumping" is to increase your strength. So, "jump" is a stupid skill that shouldn't be around to begin with; it should be based off one of your stats.
2)Time: EVE is the prime example of this, however it is not the implementation I would choose. AoC, even though there are MANY things wrong with it, has the right idea with their AA system. You can spend XP on the various perks, but you may also set one perk to train in the background, similar to EVE. After a certain number of hours, you will get a point in that perk. If this is not the main method of progression, it makes an excellent alternative to hurling yourself off cliffs.
3)Meaningful Use: While shooting arrows into a wall should not level your skill, if you hit a hostile target, or are shooting arrows while in combat (even if they miss), your skill should increase. Likewise, any combat skill should only increase when used in combat. This is not difficult as pretty much every modern MMO already has the ability to recognize when the player is in combat. Also, because most games already have some method of determining how dangerous a mob is to the player, it is VERY easy to avoid players fighting low level/gray mobs for skill gains without risk. Optionally, non-combat, non-crafting skills, might have a "cooldown" meaning that doing something repeatedly would no longer increase the skill for a short time.
These are only three of many options. In fact it would not be hard to hybridize.
Example:
Players may choose one skill which receives skill points/xp at a pre-determined rate 24/7 whether they are online or offline. In the event this skill can no longer be advanced, the player will receive a trickle of XP up to a maximum reserve of 5% of their total XP.
XP is gained from completing quests, exploring, and killing monsters. XP can be spent on skills to increase them. XP serves no other purpose than to buy additional skill points.
The top 5-10 skills the player uses most frequently (in combat only for combat-related skills) could either slowly increase with use to supplement the above to mechanics, or they may be purchased at a discounted XP cost. Either way, this still benefits skills which are used frequently.
Conclusion:
Each of the three mechanics is pretty simple, and they hybridize well. "De-stupifying" them is easily done with mechanics which already exist in nearly every MMO. Of course this system will have problems, but so does the antiquated "level" system so overused nowadays. In fact, level systems lend themselves to problems such as needing "ranks" for spells, or redundant spells/abilities which merely replace less powerful versions of themselves as the player levels. Not to mention absurdities such as needing "Epic" and "Elite" flavors of mobs in order to provide the proper challenge to groups of players.
Unlike what the developer suggests, there does not need to be dozens of different progression methods to avoid the "stupid" game play he is deriding. In fact, there are just as many "stupid" qualities to level based games as there are skill based.
The EVE rebuttal to this Devs post is obvious. Once that may not be so obvious is that skills themselves dont have to have levels. You can either jump or you cant. You can either use a greatsword or you cant. You can either swim or run or fall, or you cant.
So take SWG, why not instead of having xp to get levels which unlock new powers, or have powers which you level up to unlock new powers (like darkfall), you either BUY the skills you want, EARN the skills by completing quests (the skill is the reward), or get rid of progression, start with whatever skills you want (with a cap so everyone is different) and then design a game that is fun because its fun to immerse yourself, rather than simply grind your character.
I'm not saying I wouldn't play your game, but most people wouldn't.
People like to feel they are making progress somehow.
Youre still making progress, its just not required, nor just numbers on the screen. You complete quests for the fun of doing them, build up resources, gain territory, explore. Just when you get into a combat situation, its a fair fight (excepting armor and weapons).
Problem isn't skill based system itself but how it is implemented. Developers should learn something from bodybuilding.
1. Firstly doing something many times doesn't improve you, It's actually quite opposite. Overtraining leads to muscle tearing and other issues. Muscle needs just enough trainning to get max out of growth, anything more is often leading negative effect.
2. Secondly most common moves affect many muscles, not just single. Often skill based systems are affecting single or only few points.
So to be better game designer they should do more bodybuilding *slow GoW walking*
I like the analogy.
This is why UO had a "power hour" back in the day. During your first hour of play per day you'd have greatly increased skill gain %. After the hour, you could still gain some skills but it was a lot slower.
Obviously they had the problem where you could just macro your skills to max, but if you take away the macroing and leave only the "power hour" system it's much more similar to what you are describing.
Generally speaking, what they do about your 2nd point is have multiple skills effect only a few stats. So you still gain stats for doing a multitude of things, but the skill gain is specific.
The more complicated the progression system, the more prone to bugs/errors/and unbalance (SWG).
The more bugs/errors/unbalance in a progression system, the more development time/money spent on fixing.
The more time spent fixing, the less time for new content.
The more unbalanced and bug riddled, the worse PvP is.
I mean, does anyone actually remember pre-NGE/CU SWG?
The first "flavor of the month" I remember was Riflemen. One shot long range sniper PvP machines. Impossible to kill unless you were a Riflemen.
Then there was the Teras Kasi phase. Invincible melee masters. Enough knockdowns and stuns and evasion to kill anyone 1vs1 no matter what.
There was the Creature Handler phase. In order to get any real XP from missions/groups at a decent rate you had to have a Creature Handler pet Tank.
The Commando phase. Commando's solo'ing ATST walkers with ease.
The Bounty Hunter phase.
The Combat Medic phase (yes that's right) AoE poison masters could demolish entire groups of players with ease.
Wouldn't have been so bad if I wasn't a Pistoleer/Smuggler from day one and I never switched. Too bad both Pistoleer and Smuggler were 100% useless in PvP and most PvE. Hell, half the skill boxes in the Smuggler tree did nothing or had no real gain what so ever.
I remember having to "level" up my melee fighting to get access to the Smuggler tree. Fist fighting. All because Han Solo punched a guy like once in the movies, I had to level up my unarmed combat skills... and then the "dirty fighting" tree in the Smuggler profession was 100% useless. As were all the skill boxes in Pistoleer...
A lot of you don't get what he was replying to, he was basically replying to a member of the community who was looking through very rosily tinted glasses when it came to skill-based systems, and said they are always more realistic than level based ones; which is obviously not the case.
TOR having a class / level based system was never put in question, it has that system because the storylines are told from the perspective of the classes, skill based wouldn't work.
The replies here that levels somehow lead to more grinding is also a fallacy by itself, instead, it is the other way around.
Skill building in itself requires you to do repetitive activities: you have to chop trees again and again, you have to fire your gun again and again, you have to run and run, you have to fish again and again to level up those skills.
XP on the other hand does not, as you can gain that by doing quests or following through storylines or doing other non-repeated actitivies.
So skill building has more risk of becoming a grind by its repetitive nature than levels do.
Not saying that skills never work, they do fit some settings very well, but they are hard to implement and even if done well, will still often lead to awkward situations and fotm builds just like levels do.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
There are many points that I agree with in regards to what the designer has pointed out. I think much of the emphasis however was on the old-school forms of skill-based systems. That's why I enjoy EVE's skill based system because it's simplified enough to allow some form of balancing. Albeit is never perfect, but with the old school skill progression, it's just too many variables you are working into each other to really work with and I can imagine much harder to balance on top of having to pit every skill against each other.
I believe despite this form of skill progression shortcomings, I think there is room to further evolve the system to provide much better experiences for both designers and players like EVE has done. I think there's plenty more we can do with this system to evolve it even further but skill progression has been a pretty untapped resource for a bit as opposed to the traditional leveling/EXP system. Maybe a good reason for companies to start looking into sandboxes more (they are going to have to eventually).
I still just don't like how I can't make my character any better by actually playing the game.
I just have to wait...
Sure, I need to make money so I can buy new ships and rigs and equipment and skill books...
But I'd love EvE if they slowed down the offline progression and added the ability to gain SP by actually doing stuff.
It just seems so... artificial the way it is now, which is in great contrast to the dynamic and "real" feeling of the game world.
Heh, that's pretty much the only reason I don't play EvE (the SP real time gain). I'm hoping CCP will do just about everything with World of Darkness Online as they did with EvE except allow actual play to gain you the equivalent of SP as opposed to waiting real time. Or at least make a hybrid of that system. Other than that I still want the same respective level of deep gameplay with all the game's systems/mechanics as they offer in EvE.
CCP is probably the last bastion of AAA developers that aren't afraid to make a deep, complex game. They're pretty much the reason I keep interested in MMOs. Hopefully 38 Studios will join their ranks.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Pre-CU SWG had a fine skill-based system, and it worked.
The leveling worked really well the system didn't.
It was impossible from a code standpoint to balance 32 classes that could be mixed and matched.
RM/CM, Dodge stacking fencer/pistoleer, TKM. Swords, TKM/dot pikeman, TKM/Dr to name just a couple of the FOTM's
How would you know if it was impossible to balance, it's not like the devs tried to do it even once.
I am not saying it would be easy but claiming that something is impossible when you haven't even tried it is not making a good argument.
Oh they tried at first, until Jedi started being popular and more common in game, and then they threw balance out the window and stopped even trying. They continued to try and "balance" the game but it was pointless by that time. They put themselves in such a hole making jedi's powerful and then trying to balance it out so that bounty hunters could hunt them properly that it made both sides unhappy so they decided to continue changing the system in lieu of actually balancing.
To some extent I have to agree with the developer about skill levelling become monotonous. I did the same in Everquest. I'd take my monk to the Barbarian lands of Halas and find a particular low level (5) goblin camp. I'd walk up to one of them and use intimidate. If it failed I'd feign death. If it failed I'd kill the gobblin and move to the next goblin. Repeat. When all goblins were gone I'd run up and down the ice mouintains improving safe fall until the goblins respawned and repeat. Skills in EQ had 5 levels of skill per actual XP level. I actually would spend entire evennings working on these skills. Why? That is the question!
It's because normal game play failed to level your skills. The same with Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion. The same for those other MMO's that use skill based levels. If your skills do not level with normal play then your left levelling through macros. bots, and monotony.
Comments
I'm sure if he was a gamer, he would put more effort into it.
You know, getting paid to make games is a dream job - like being an astronaut, or a pro athlete - IF you like games to begin with. It certainly would be for me. I love games - both playing, and talking about them.
If not, it's just another job you half-ass your way through to get a paycheck. The results speak for themselves. There are a lot of people in the industry now only working for a paycheck.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
True macros are made outside of the game. You can program your computer to make mouse clicks, input commands, and repeat it without need for ingame support.
A lot of MMOs offer their own macro systems to help control that.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Very true. And that list of "it's a job" developers grows every day. We are no longer in the "old days" of gamers making games they themselves would want to play, but are in the "new days" of suits forcused on $ making games for a market demographic.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
I just have to say that I hope the devs have original ideas. The leveling is the key part of the game, I think it is time to see something different. Actually I hate greeding and having to spend hours at the keyboard to improve my character, there appear macros because the game is boring. If there was how to turn the leveling a motivating thing, where I can progress naturally, I dont say increasing levels it dont increase the coefficient of difficulty, but without the excessive spend of time which exists in some games which makes it repetitive and monotonous. Otherwise I will not waste time with a copy of what already exists. Apart from a game I also have a real life, I dont live only for greeding and be a slave to a virtual world, they can build things for the players fun and not for give an second job.
The leveling worked really well the system didn't.
It was impossible from a code standpoint to balance 32 classes that could be mixed and matched.
RM/CM, Dodge stacking fencer/pistoleer, TKM. Swords, TKM/dot pikeman, TKM/Dr to name just a couple of the FOTM's
I guess it just goes back to the absolute point of, the players can only do what you develope for them to do in the game.
If the players dont mind jumping off a cliff 100 times, if theyre willing to do that, if they want to do that and maybe enjoy it, then its fine. Otherwise no, Id guess its not the absolute greatest way to progress. This arguement always ends in preference, no matter how many ways you put it to someone, in the end, it goes towards what the player prefers. You could probably argue that about any system you put into your game.
agree.
So he's gonna remove possibly the most important feature IMO. Great. :¬(
The EVE rebuttal to this Devs post is obvious. Once that may not be so obvious is that skills themselves dont have to have levels. You can either jump or you cant. You can either use a greatsword or you cant. You can either swim or run or fall, or you cant.
So take SWG, why not instead of having xp to get levels which unlock new powers, or have powers which you level up to unlock new powers (like darkfall), you either BUY the skills you want, EARN the skills by completing quests (the skill is the reward), or get rid of progression, start with whatever skills you want (with a cap so everyone is different) and then design a game that is fun because its fun to immerse yourself, rather than simply grind your character.
Remove?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I'm not saying I wouldn't play your game, but most people wouldn't.
People like to feel they are making progress somehow.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Skill based worked in Ultima Online because you could macro or grind your skills to GM (Max) in a couple of hours or a day. In that sense, progression was easy and not the main focus of the game.
Thusly progression wasn't nearly as important so it was OK to be able to grind up your skills and stats doing stupid and worthless things.
To grind your stealth and hiding skills you would just afk walk in circle around town, gaining Hiding skill every time your macro told you to Hide and gaining stealth for the few seconds you were walking in circles while in stealth.
Most people would grind melee fighting skills and their associated companion skills at the infamous "Bone wall" in one of the early dungeons - you'd literally camp the exact same door into a room full of skeletons and they'd walk up to you one by one and die over and over again.
Every few minutes you'd have to use bandages, which you guessed it, grinded up your Bandage skills...
I did like the system SWG used to use, but for non-combat professions you ended up doing a lot of the same afk-macro'ing that you'd do in UO to grind up enough XP to purchase your next box. AFK dancing/music macros, AFK camping macros... even early on for Scouting you would just walk up hills and steep slopes to gain XP for your Pathfinding skills or whatever they are...
As much as I love skill-based progression, there is a lot of crap associated with it.
As nice as it is to be gaining new skills and new ranks in EvE right now as I sit here at work due to their time-based skill system, when I go home and play today (if the gf lets me!) I won't be actively advancing my character's skills.
As long as the leveling / XP system is properly balanced and curved, and the choices we make when gaining a new level in terms of "talent' point selection and the newly announced advanced class paths and abilities gained etc. is fun and interesting and entertaining, I'm all for it.
Also in terms of a role based PvE and PvP class game, knowing what capabilities a specific class has allows easier formation of groups. I can't believe they wouldn't have some sort of dual-spec system in place as well.
Damion Schubert is right on the money. I've never seen a use-base skill progression game that did not make its gameworld seem outright stupid and boring. I've played many of them and to my surprise I've found even myself doing stupid and boring things like jumping every second (more than your regular FPS bunny-hopper), casting the same spell for hours on end, and yes, even taping down skill keys to read a book "till I get there" - and I'm much more of a lore/story kinda guy... You can try to justify that in some misguided real-to-reel translation model, but it just does not work in a game in terms of creativity, in terms of entertainment value, and in terms of gameworld logic. If there really is a lazy progression system, it sure is this one.
And, no surprise, when you step into such a game you see the vast majority of players do this to the effect that when you walk around, you find "people" jumping around, running against a wall or standing in a corner and self casting for hours... It looks less like a game and more like a pro group of game testers trying to break the game and find bugs - it's a huge turnoff.
The game that did get the skill-based progression right, in my opinion, is EVE, and it's not use-based progression; it's time-based progression, so you don't see people doing repetitively silly things - as a result its universe has this coolness to it that's not destroyed by unrealistic player behaviour.
When you don't force people to jump for hours, they don't jump for hours. They jump when they need to. It makes sense.
Problem isn't skill based system itself but how it is implemented. Developers should learn something from bodybuilding.
Firstly doing something many times doesn't improve you, It's actually quite opposite. Overtraining leads to muscle tearing and other issues. Muscle needs just enough trainning to get max out of growth, anything more is often leading negative effect.
Secondly most common moves affect many muscles, not just single. Often skill based systems are affecting single or only few points.
So to be better game designer they should do more bodybuilding *slow GoW walking*
I'm extremely disappointed. That was a half-assed response from the TOR developer. Skill based systems are no more related to their method of progression than a level based system is. To assume that all skill based systems would be based on leveling the skill via use is asinine.
Examples of alternatives are:
1) Spend XP: When you kill monsters/complete quests, you get XP to spend on skills. Therefore, you may have a slowfall skill, but intentionally hurling yourself off a cliff won't level it. Honestly though, people who are good at falling from great heights in real life, DO throw themselves off things to increase their skill. Things like jump should never be based off a skill (unless jump = slowfall) as the only way to get better at "jumping" is to increase your strength. So, "jump" is a stupid skill that shouldn't be around to begin with; it should be based off one of your stats.
2)Time: EVE is the prime example of this, however it is not the implementation I would choose. AoC, even though there are MANY things wrong with it, has the right idea with their AA system. You can spend XP on the various perks, but you may also set one perk to train in the background, similar to EVE. After a certain number of hours, you will get a point in that perk. If this is not the main method of progression, it makes an excellent alternative to hurling yourself off cliffs.
3)Meaningful Use: While shooting arrows into a wall should not level your skill, if you hit a hostile target, or are shooting arrows while in combat (even if they miss), your skill should increase. Likewise, any combat skill should only increase when used in combat. This is not difficult as pretty much every modern MMO already has the ability to recognize when the player is in combat. Also, because most games already have some method of determining how dangerous a mob is to the player, it is VERY easy to avoid players fighting low level/gray mobs for skill gains without risk. Optionally, non-combat, non-crafting skills, might have a "cooldown" meaning that doing something repeatedly would no longer increase the skill for a short time.
These are only three of many options. In fact it would not be hard to hybridize.
Example:
Players may choose one skill which receives skill points/xp at a pre-determined rate 24/7 whether they are online or offline. In the event this skill can no longer be advanced, the player will receive a trickle of XP up to a maximum reserve of 5% of their total XP.
XP is gained from completing quests, exploring, and killing monsters. XP can be spent on skills to increase them. XP serves no other purpose than to buy additional skill points.
The top 5-10 skills the player uses most frequently (in combat only for combat-related skills) could either slowly increase with use to supplement the above to mechanics, or they may be purchased at a discounted XP cost. Either way, this still benefits skills which are used frequently.
Conclusion:
Each of the three mechanics is pretty simple, and they hybridize well. "De-stupifying" them is easily done with mechanics which already exist in nearly every MMO. Of course this system will have problems, but so does the antiquated "level" system so overused nowadays. In fact, level systems lend themselves to problems such as needing "ranks" for spells, or redundant spells/abilities which merely replace less powerful versions of themselves as the player levels. Not to mention absurdities such as needing "Epic" and "Elite" flavors of mobs in order to provide the proper challenge to groups of players.
Unlike what the developer suggests, there does not need to be dozens of different progression methods to avoid the "stupid" game play he is deriding. In fact, there are just as many "stupid" qualities to level based games as there are skill based.
Youre still making progress, its just not required, nor just numbers on the screen. You complete quests for the fun of doing them, build up resources, gain territory, explore. Just when you get into a combat situation, its a fair fight (excepting armor and weapons).
I like the analogy.
This is why UO had a "power hour" back in the day. During your first hour of play per day you'd have greatly increased skill gain %. After the hour, you could still gain some skills but it was a lot slower.
Obviously they had the problem where you could just macro your skills to max, but if you take away the macroing and leave only the "power hour" system it's much more similar to what you are describing.
Generally speaking, what they do about your 2nd point is have multiple skills effect only a few stats. So you still gain stats for doing a multitude of things, but the skill gain is specific.
History has proven -
The more complicated the progression system, the more prone to bugs/errors/and unbalance (SWG).
The more bugs/errors/unbalance in a progression system, the more development time/money spent on fixing.
The more time spent fixing, the less time for new content.
The more unbalanced and bug riddled, the worse PvP is.
I mean, does anyone actually remember pre-NGE/CU SWG?
The first "flavor of the month" I remember was Riflemen. One shot long range sniper PvP machines. Impossible to kill unless you were a Riflemen.
Then there was the Teras Kasi phase. Invincible melee masters. Enough knockdowns and stuns and evasion to kill anyone 1vs1 no matter what.
There was the Creature Handler phase. In order to get any real XP from missions/groups at a decent rate you had to have a Creature Handler pet Tank.
The Commando phase. Commando's solo'ing ATST walkers with ease.
The Bounty Hunter phase.
The Combat Medic phase (yes that's right) AoE poison masters could demolish entire groups of players with ease.
Wouldn't have been so bad if I wasn't a Pistoleer/Smuggler from day one and I never switched. Too bad both Pistoleer and Smuggler were 100% useless in PvP and most PvE. Hell, half the skill boxes in the Smuggler tree did nothing or had no real gain what so ever.
I remember having to "level" up my melee fighting to get access to the Smuggler tree. Fist fighting. All because Han Solo punched a guy like once in the movies, I had to level up my unarmed combat skills... and then the "dirty fighting" tree in the Smuggler profession was 100% useless. As were all the skill boxes in Pistoleer...
A lot of you don't get what he was replying to, he was basically replying to a member of the community who was looking through very rosily tinted glasses when it came to skill-based systems, and said they are always more realistic than level based ones; which is obviously not the case.
TOR having a class / level based system was never put in question, it has that system because the storylines are told from the perspective of the classes, skill based wouldn't work.
The replies here that levels somehow lead to more grinding is also a fallacy by itself, instead, it is the other way around.
Skill building in itself requires you to do repetitive activities: you have to chop trees again and again, you have to fire your gun again and again, you have to run and run, you have to fish again and again to level up those skills.
XP on the other hand does not, as you can gain that by doing quests or following through storylines or doing other non-repeated actitivies.
So skill building has more risk of becoming a grind by its repetitive nature than levels do.
Not saying that skills never work, they do fit some settings very well, but they are hard to implement and even if done well, will still often lead to awkward situations and fotm builds just like levels do.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
There are many points that I agree with in regards to what the designer has pointed out. I think much of the emphasis however was on the old-school forms of skill-based systems. That's why I enjoy EVE's skill based system because it's simplified enough to allow some form of balancing. Albeit is never perfect, but with the old school skill progression, it's just too many variables you are working into each other to really work with and I can imagine much harder to balance on top of having to pit every skill against each other.
I believe despite this form of skill progression shortcomings, I think there is room to further evolve the system to provide much better experiences for both designers and players like EVE has done. I think there's plenty more we can do with this system to evolve it even further but skill progression has been a pretty untapped resource for a bit as opposed to the traditional leveling/EXP system. Maybe a good reason for companies to start looking into sandboxes more (they are going to have to eventually).
I still just don't like how I can't make my character any better by actually playing the game.
I just have to wait...
Sure, I need to make money so I can buy new ships and rigs and equipment and skill books...
But I'd love EvE if they slowed down the offline progression and added the ability to gain SP by actually doing stuff.
It just seems so... artificial the way it is now, which is in great contrast to the dynamic and "real" feeling of the game world.
Heh, that's pretty much the only reason I don't play EvE (the SP real time gain). I'm hoping CCP will do just about everything with World of Darkness Online as they did with EvE except allow actual play to gain you the equivalent of SP as opposed to waiting real time. Or at least make a hybrid of that system. Other than that I still want the same respective level of deep gameplay with all the game's systems/mechanics as they offer in EvE.
CCP is probably the last bastion of AAA developers that aren't afraid to make a deep, complex game. They're pretty much the reason I keep interested in MMOs. Hopefully 38 Studios will join their ranks.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
How would you know if it was impossible to balance, it's not like the devs tried to do it even once.
I am not saying it would be easy but claiming that something is impossible when you haven't even tried it is not making a good argument.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
Oh they tried at first, until Jedi started being popular and more common in game, and then they threw balance out the window and stopped even trying. They continued to try and "balance" the game but it was pointless by that time. They put themselves in such a hole making jedi's powerful and then trying to balance it out so that bounty hunters could hunt them properly that it made both sides unhappy so they decided to continue changing the system in lieu of actually balancing.
To some extent I have to agree with the developer about skill levelling become monotonous. I did the same in Everquest. I'd take my monk to the Barbarian lands of Halas and find a particular low level (5) goblin camp. I'd walk up to one of them and use intimidate. If it failed I'd feign death. If it failed I'd kill the gobblin and move to the next goblin. Repeat. When all goblins were gone I'd run up and down the ice mouintains improving safe fall until the goblins respawned and repeat. Skills in EQ had 5 levels of skill per actual XP level. I actually would spend entire evennings working on these skills. Why? That is the question!
It's because normal game play failed to level your skills. The same with Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion. The same for those other MMO's that use skill based levels. If your skills do not level with normal play then your left levelling through macros. bots, and monotony.