Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Character levels in GW2 - why is Arenanet shooting itself in the foot?
Pilnkplonk
Member Posts: 1,532
Originally posted by Warband
Your high level character scales down to the level of the event through the side-kick system so you can enjoy all events at any level.
Am I the only one who finds this ridiculous?
Bear with me.. if character level scales up or down according to the event.. then why do we have character levels at all?
When will some AAA dev finally find the guts to dispense with this ancient and fankly dumb leveling mechanic? Arenanet obviously realizes the universal problems levels in mmo pose - namely separating players and dividing them into ridiculous, immersion breaking level brackets; locking players out of previously unlocked content; making ganking in PvP possible etc etc.....
I really really hoped they would be the first AAA company to completely dispense with levels, as they almost did in GW1 - and to a great success. There are other ways and mechanics of gradually unlocking new character abilitis and content and levels are just the most straightforward one.. but one which creates immense problems in a massively multiplayer environment. Any solutions to these problems are gimmicky at best and hugely immersion-breaking at worst. (Please, give me ANY game-reality rationale why would my character suddenly grow weaker or stronger just by entering a particular region of the world or meeting another character?!?!? It's just plain ridiculous!)
And now with these mechanics in place in PvE and max-level boosting in arena PVP what part of the game is the one where char levels have any import at all? The world PvP in mysts... Oh my god. Enjoyable PvP is ABSOLUTELY DEPENDANT on characters being at least to some degree equal. All the griefing and unfairness in MMO PvP comes from the fact that in PvE model based games characters of different levels can have hugely different character strengths so a low level character has absolutely NO CHANCE against a high level one. Again, GW1 had this down pat with their lateral advancement scheme where you could concivable have a new character compete with a veteran - ofc a vetran would have a much greater chance of winning but it wasn't inconcievable that a newb could at least theoretically do some harm to the vet, or even win if he got lucky.
So basically they are leaving this character level-based stratification only in the portion of the game where it is set about to produce the most harm and is absolutely the least appropriate - open world PvP. Just witness any world PvP game where there is a huge power difference between new players and veterans... It simply DOES NOT WORK. It always devolves into a game of frustration where newbs cannot participate and the vets are bored because they are untouchable. Open world PvP mmos have tried again and again to solve this problem by various gimmicks which always end up harming the game and breaking immersion - from "PvP only from max level" to "turn you into a chicken" crap.
JUST SAY NO TO LEVELS ALREADY!!!
It is simply ridiculous to what lengths the devs are going to these days to basically make levels irrelevant - because they are aware how inappropriate the whole concept is for multiplayer games - while at the same time hanging on them like the holy cow of RPG game design. ENOUGH ALREADY!
I must say that I'm very impressed with the advanced concepts and mechanics Arenanet is introducing to push the MMO genere forward and this is why I'm so immensely saddened to see them being hampered by a lack of courage to finally drive the nail in and just SAY NO TO LEVELS.
Comments
First one to dispense of levels? There are a lot of games that don't use the treadmill leveling system. Most are niche and sandbox, but allow a new player to team up and do almost everything a veteran can do together. It is a great system that has yet to have a real AAA dev throw money at it.
Did you mean you were hoping they would be the first AAA dev to do it?
Anyway didn't mean to derail. I agree with you almost 100%. This leveling mechanic is old school, and is a hindrance on this genre. It should be done away with imo. Designers need to start expanding instead of copying.
Why do people love to jump into conclusions when they know near to nothing about the game? We don't even know level caps and how long it will take to reach them, not to mention if there will be one at all or if levels will really work like the other MMOs (I hope they don't).
And the most serious PvP, the structured competitive PvP will feature an equalizer like PvP characters from GW1, level and stat difference will mean nothing.
Anyway, they haven't specifically talked about character levels yet.
I think your missing the point. A-net frankly doesn't care or want levels but the fact remains people will turn down a game purely because it has no levels. That could cause them to lose a fair amount of possible customers and would actually be shooting themselves in the foot. A lot of people complained about gw1 "lack of progression" so there trying to make it seem as if they're listening to their concerns while still still make levels barely matter in game.
It's a compromise, but it's one that barely affects the game at all it really doesn't matter.
Quite frankly it could be a good stepping stone for players that only play mmo's with a high level cap to realise levels don't matter. I honestly don't seem the problem in the system.....
To clarify its scale down not up so yes levels matter. What doesn't matter is that you are a bazillion levels ahead of your friend. In some MMOs, WoW, AoC there is no meaningful way to play with your new to the game friend on your main toon. In other MMOs, EQ2, CoX, VG, GW2 you can.
Heck in EQ2 and CoX you can self scale down to do any content you missed on the way to cap.
Personally I like levels, GW1 had some but honestly it was more about skills aquired than outright level. And you capped out pretty fast so you end up losing the carrot but still not near the end game. People like to feel they are making progress, xp bar is a pretty easy to deliver progress metre.
TSW will have no levels, and the spokespersons are wearing that fact with pride on their sleeves.
So, it can be done and will be done, by other companies.
I don't know, I have faith in GW2 regarding this: their former system in GW was already pretty ingenious, in the sense that yes, you could reach max level pretty easy, but after that you still had more than half of the content still to go. And next to that, for those who couldn't wait, there were the template characters that you could use to jump right into the endgame PvP content.
Pretty nifty, especially when you consider that many MMO players these days think they have to rush through the levels because they think the fun and the game only starts at level cap.
They had this smart and unconventional system in place already 6 years ago. I don't believe they'd abandon this if they didn't have a new system for GW2 that was as equally as good as the former one or better.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
So will this be like FFXI with level syncing? If so that worked fine and wasn't too much of a problem.
I agree with the OP and I'm wondering how to get feedback to the GW devs, or at least Im hoping the devs want feedback since they have claimed quite a few times that they listen to their fans.
As far as feedback goes for the GW devs I think it would help immensely if they had actual official forums instead of the fanbase circle crud. How does one know which (if any) of the fan forums the GW devs read? Because I was hoping to add to a list I'm sure exists of suggestions and hopes for GW2. For example, why didn't the devs add dwarves as a playable race? There is already a lot of lore and ruins in Tyria based on the dwarves. There is a lot more to go with for dwarves than the new race, the sylvari. And as far as cliche' races go, they are adding cliche' elves, the sylvari, so why not dwarves too? I know the devs say the sylvari are not elves but let's face it, they look and sound like elves so far judging by the vids.
I think this is an over-reaction to something based on a lot of assumptions.
I hope this is the case - a "stealth level-less" system.
Don't get me wrong, I love dinging as much as the next guy and I agree that it does give a nice, simple and satisfying way of measuring character progression. However what I have against leveling, and "classic" mmo char progression is that it gives a linear way of advancing your character which ultimately ends up creating all the problems I mentioned above.
.. and this is not confined only to level-and-class RPG systems.. For example, Darkfall has immense problems with wildly differing character powers which creates a frankly quite unhealthy atmosphere in a game that is all about competetive PvP. You can't have competetive PvP if character power varies greatly.
I can see how levels could really work in a MMO environment, without most of the problems inherent to the classical level-based model... however this system would have to deviate quite a bit from the norm. This is how it would work:
- levels do not influence stats in any meaningful way, especially HP and any skill involving combat
- levels are used primarily as a method of unlocking new abilities and skills (aka lateral advancement) and game content (such as new areas etc)
- levels can be used to unlock and improve non-combat aspects of the character - you get to wear more shiney gear, decorations, housing, mounts, titles, maybe crafting up to a point etc etc etc
- if all this is in place you can even have a level-based game with no level cap (a holy grail for the "I love the ding!" crowd)
Imo, the point isn't even the levels - it is the steep character advancement curves mmos have. GW solved this quite elegantly and I have a kind of a hope against hope that the levels in GW2 are here for fluff and bragging rights more than anything else.
Well, since NCSoft owns them, I suppose they are a AAA devlopement house, though the actual GW team doesn't look any bigger than CCP.
http://www.arena.net/aboutus/
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
True but they do have a heck of a lot of funding as well as complete control on the project and when it is realised. They may have a small team but they enjoy luxuries most AAA mmo developer's just don't have.
If I get it correctly this is similar to ffxi system which is good that way.
You have a limit of lvl 20 to enter x dungeon so if you thought on getting a quick run from some guy lvl 80 he will be lvl 20 inside the dungeon so you will still need a party.
That system is great so you don't rush through content but have to group with others unless it's some quest to make it a bit challenging they limit the level you can be to do it but it's still better then out level dungeon/quests and then just go solo everything without problems.
what the hell are you saying? We dont even know if there will be a sidekick system yet and if there would be one,it would be optional and not force you to use it.
Sidekick system has been confirmed by Eric Flannum.
@OP
1) GW1 had a level cap of 20...the difference really was not that substantial besides access to more abilities and a few more skill points to beef up the potency of whichever spell schools you allocated them to. It's a safe assumption that the level cap will be similarly small if not exactly the same for GW2 (since they've mentioned it would be similar in one of the interviews).
2) You're looking at the sidekick system from the wrong perspective. Let's say you're normally a guy that can summon meteor showers and that's necessary to take out enemies that pose large threats. You wander into a village and see your less powerful friends fighting off a bandit attack. You aren't going to necessarily need to use your full power to extinguish a threat of that level (maybe you'll just zap them all with a basic lightning spell and call it a day).
With how this system is designed, you'll still feel more powerful than the lower level players you're working with, but the power you use might match the situation a bit better.
3) Again - for PvP, you're vastly overestimating the power difference that will be created by the low, slow scaling level cap (one that isn't really attribute based like most leveling systems, and gear differences won't necessarily be large either).
I agree that an innovative solution is needed to replace the leveling system at some point, but you have to consider that not all level-based systems are the same. I'm confident that Anet will use one similar to guild wars, probably with improvements regarding these new features in mind, and the result will be an enjoyable balance.
Also - chill.
Without levels it wont draw many people, it is why they chose to keep levels. Adding a higher level cap helps those who felt GW1 was to quick on progression. By allowing you to have your level reduced to play with lower level players makes it so you can play with your friends or just have more options if you feel like playing vs lower levels.
This doesn't hurt them in anyway and I think people like the OP over think analyse things. Just think things out first, common sense seems to be gone.
WOW a lot of missinformation here
1) yes there is a side kick system, but it lowers the high lvl specs to the rest of the team WHEN in dungeon/instance.
finding link...
2)second, when in an event (open world) the event scales to the number of players, NOT lvl.
"Does event scaling adapt to group size only or will it also adapt to character levels?
Eric: Event scaling only adapts to group size, not to character level. If you have a group of players participating in an event and they are a bit higher in level than the event calls for, they will find it easier than a similarly sized group of lower level players.
"
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
Actually your misinformed..... your characters level lowers when in a lower level event.
We talked to Eric about your concerns that high level players could try to ruin events for lower-level players. Here is what he said:
We have anticipated that higher level players ruining events for lower level players could be a huge problem. Instead of scaling the events themselves (which causes a host of problems) we are using a sidekick system (about which we will talk at some later point) to scale the high level player down.
What this means is that they’ll probably still be able to contribute a lot more than a “normal” player but won’t be able to one shot everything in sight with ease. For example a level 20 player trying to take part in a level 5 event will scale down to about level 8. They’d still get to feel very powerful but wouldn’t break the event. This has the added bonus of allowing a player to go experience whatever content they want to regardless of whether or not they’ve “out leveled” it.
then they are giving lots of missinformation which is a bad thing =x
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
No their information is perfectly correct it's just not all the information. Those questions aren't them describing every little detail of the event system their just answer the questions players want to know. Players came back to them with what they believe to be problems with what they said and they further explain bits that are missed out.
They didn't lie or give you wrong information they just didn't give you all of it at that time.
I mean TBF developers rarely clear up mistakes or problems players find with their work they usually just ignore it. At least A-net puts in the effort to make sure people don't have any misconceptions about the product before they buy it.
So, events scale to number of players and player lvl scale to fit events. Not easy to get right when they only give you half the information at a time.
Learn to wait for information before making wild asumptions
, the only thing you are doing now is give players who hate levels the wrong idea or atleast for now the wrong idea. ANET hasn't said anything about how levels will work, besides that they scale with the group you are playing with. Like many others already stated, you are making wild asumptions.
Granted but I guess it's because they only want to reveal certain parts while during those Q and A's as well ahs the old remember to explain everything to people who ahve never experienced it before since these people aren't really PR they've just been asked questions by the people and gave out answers. Sure it's annoying but hey we've learnt more about the game in this short period of time than most other mmo's that are supposed to be released next year.
I agree with 'say no for levels'.
In first gw earning max lv 20 was super fast and easy, it was just a way to earn attribute points, that's all. They could be completely taken out, I'm sure the devs would figure a way to do this.
Why I don't like levels in general? It's because they imply an urge on us, that at the max lv the real game 'starts'' and so we all rush to this max lvl. Besides that it's the most basic advancement method, yet so outdated nowdays. I'm tired of this concept.
At least I can be happy that gw2 is trying to do something about it with this scaling, let's hope it will work.
I get what people say about lvls.
But maybe try to relax and don't go wild on speculations on what we have heard so far.
Actual i think maybe its time to give Arena net some credit for a few things.
First GW1 is one of the games where lvl is not used as a grind mecanic. it does away with lvls fast.
second so far ... and think about that.. they dare to pursue a vison for how they think a game should be played. and sacrifice alot of their most supported succeses to achive that goal. (No npc's , where is the dedicated healer, less skills as eksamples) . thats brave
I don't think they do it in vain , so far its a compagny that had proved that they knows what they are doing.
Maybe its the same with lvls,
Not to be used as a mechanic to seperate players and content, and still to be used as a way to achive something.
Maybe its not levels thats the proplem , but what a game use them for !