I 100% agree with Bioware. I too hope Bioware can infuse their single-player style gameplay into the mmorpg genre. Just watching their trailers and development journals completely blows me away with how huge it's going to be.
To everyone his own I guess.
And how many times does an in game cinematic or trailer "blows" you away I might ask?
And will it be enough to ensure a 15 dollar sub fee after watching it for the 15th time?
Perhaps read my signature and see why MMO's are a complete different beast than the games Bioware produced up until now.
The point to MMo's is having that feeling of achieving something in a world of players, not in a world of NPC prerecorded story telling.
Naughty, your acting like Bioware telling us what the point of an MMO is!
It comes down to personal preference with regard to the point of an MMO. Personally, like in real life, I like to take challenges on my own with no help what so ever. I just don't like to be dependent on people for help.
Forum posters might be thinking "Why the hell do you want to play an MMO?"
1. For the world.
2. For the story, the reason I'm here.
3. If I get bored of the the first 2, I can chill and chat to friends within the game. Or if i do get that annoyed with a story line, ask for help. but I do try and not ask for help. Just a trait of mine.
I NEED a story. Otherwise it will just be one gigantic grind fest. Also how do you create your OWN stories in a sandbox MMO? I can see how it can be done in EVE, but only through PVP. Any game following quests is not creating your OWN story. And using a profession to guide your story (eg, becoming an expert crafter or whatever and selling stuff in a shop) isn't a fun story. So, without PVP involved how do you create your OWN story?
I NEED a story. Otherwise it will just be one gigantic grind fest. Also how do you create your OWN stories in a sandbox MMO? I can see how it can be done in EVE, but only through PVP. Any game following quests is not creating your OWN story. And using a profession to guide your story (eg, becoming an expert crafter or whatever and selling stuff in a shop) isn't a fun story. So, without PVP involved how do you create your OWN story?
Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself.
I still see that the SWG people are still bitching and moaning about TOR not being SWG2. Well, get over it. If you don't like what you see, no one is gonna put a gun to your head and make you play it. Bioware has said that the game will be a mixture of both sandbox and themepark. While i like what i see from BIoware, i surely don't think TOR will be the greatest thing in the world. I leave real life to satisfy that for me. What i do believe is that TOR will be a fun and well made game for me to play and be able to immerse myself in the star Wars world again.
I 100% agree with Bioware. I too hope Bioware can infuse their single-player style gameplay into the mmorpg genre. Just watching their trailers and development journals completely blows me away with how huge it's going to be.
To everyone his own I guess.
And how many times does an in game cinematic or trailer "blows" you away I might ask?
And will it be enough to ensure a 15 dollar sub fee after watching it for the 15th time?
Perhaps read my signature and see why MMO's are a complete different beast than the games Bioware produced up until now.
The point to MMo's is having that feeling of achieving something in a world of players, not in a world of NPC prerecorded story telling.
Naughty, your acting like Bioware telling us what the point of an MMO is!
It comes down to personal preference with regard to the point of an MMO. Personally, like in real life, I like to take challenges on my own with no help what so ever. I just don't like to be dependent on people for help.
Forum posters might be thinking "Why the hell do you want to play an MMO?"
1. For the world.
2. For the story, the reason I'm here.
3. If I get bored of the the first 2, I can chill and chat to friends within the game. Or if i do get that annoyed with a story line, ask for help. but I do try and not ask for help. Just a trait of mine.
I NEED a story. Otherwise it will just be one gigantic grind fest. Also how do you create your OWN stories in a sandbox MMO? I can see how it can be done in EVE, but only through PVP. Any game following quests is not creating your OWN story. And using a profession to guide your story (eg, becoming an expert crafter or whatever and selling stuff in a shop) isn't a fun story. So, without PVP involved how do you create your OWN story?
The big difference between a single adventure game and an MMo is that in the first game you play alone surrounded by story telling NPC's using AI that makes a rabbit look like Einstein.
The techniques to enhance the story telling and immersive gameplay in solo games don't work in on line games.
Why? Each pre recorded video and speech conversation with an NPC is idiotic at best. In fact speaking to an NPC in an on line game is ... embarassing. It is like talking to a table in front of a crowd.
The tools to enhance that immersive story telling feeling in solo games are not only embarrassing in MMo's, they also hamper good communciations and interactions with other players in MMo's.
Examples: you watch the in game video and concentrate on the pre recorded speeches with quest giving NPC's instead of in game coms; you care more for your NPC companions (and their advancing story lines) than the people you should group with and advance; your own little world will never be "synchronised" with other players' solo careers and their content.
Even in theme park driven MMo's there should always be that feeling of freedom to play and follow a path you set out, not drilled by a prerecorded film maker.
By using vast amounts of prerecorded story lines, massive use of companion NPC's, in game cinematics that have nothing to do with multi player gameplay, you set out for an individual experience which is not what people seek in MMo's (not even the solo type player) for prolonged gameplay.
Up until now Bioware only created the single player adventure game (giving the player even NPC party members). The story is being made by the players in any succesful MMo. Sandbox or quest driven has nothing to do with it.
It is the player interaction that makes the individual story set in a world (or Lore) as a backdrop. Even for crafting there is a player to player story used (from gathering to fighting to crafting).
The "great job done m8" is the real story of an MMo, never the bombastic speech of a prerecorded NPC ending a story line.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
I've said it so many times, Bioware is out of touch with the MMO gamers, they have no clue what-so-ever what is a MMORPG and why people play them.
They should stick to what they do best, single player rpg games.
TOR gonna flop hard.
It's going to be a very interesting experience,
In my view too, Bioware has made some major miscalculations:
They have aimed the game at too young a demographic.
They have made the game too constrictive and limited.
The features which Bioware is emphasing - story, voices, companions - don't necessarily suit an MMO, especially a Star Wars MMO, and seem to come at the expense of features which would have suited a Star Wars MMO better - flight combat, crafting professions, persistent housing.
I personally believe that after a massive launch which will see two-three or even five millions boxes sold that there will then be a massive backlash against this game some six to twelve months afyer launch. Whether it survives this blacklash will be the test of its success. Personally, I think it represents too much of an investment for EA to ever close down.
I hypothesise that the game will then be rebranded as an Online Single Player (whatever Mike B tells us it is or isn't) for which you will then pay a monthly rent. I think that the subscriber levels, though relatively low compared to WoW's continuing success and those of new MMO games in the pipeline, will be sufficiently profitable for the game to survive.
I 100% agree with Bioware. I too hope Bioware can infuse their single-player style gameplay into the mmorpg genre. Just watching their trailers and development journals completely blows me away with how huge it's going to be.
To everyone his own I guess.
And how many times does an in game cinematic or trailer "blows" you away I might ask?
And will it be enough to ensure a 15 dollar sub fee after watching it for the 15th time?
Perhaps read my signature and see why MMO's are a complete different beast than the games Bioware produced up until now.
The point to MMo's is having that feeling of achieving something in a world of players, not in a world of NPC prerecorded story telling.
Naughty, your acting like Bioware telling us what the point of an MMO is!
It comes down to personal preference with regard to the point of an MMO. Personally, like in real life, I like to take challenges on my own with no help what so ever. I just don't like to be dependent on people for help.
Forum posters might be thinking "Why the hell do you want to play an MMO?"
1. For the world.
2. For the story, the reason I'm here.
3. If I get bored of the the first 2, I can chill and chat to friends within the game. Or if i do get that annoyed with a story line, ask for help. but I do try and not ask for help. Just a trait of mine.
I NEED a story. Otherwise it will just be one gigantic grind fest. Also how do you create your OWN stories in a sandbox MMO? I can see how it can be done in EVE, but only through PVP. Any game following quests is not creating your OWN story. And using a profession to guide your story (eg, becoming an expert crafter or whatever and selling stuff in a shop) isn't a fun story. So, without PVP involved how do you create your OWN story?
The big difference between a single adventure game and an MMo is that in the first game you play alone surrounded by story telling NPC's using AI that makes a rabbit look like Einstein.
The techniques to enhance the story telling and immersive gameplay in solo games don't work in on line games.
Why? Each pre recorded video and speech conversation with an NPC is idiotic at best. In fact speaking to an NPC in an on line game is ... embarassing. It is like talking to a table in front of a crowd.
The tools to enhance that immersive story telling feeling in solo games are not only embarrassing in MMo's, they also hamper good communciations and interactions with other players in MMo's.
Examples: you watch the in game video and concentrate on the pre recorded speeches with quest giving NPC's instead of in game coms; you care more for your NPC companions (and their advancing story lines) than the people you should group with and advance; your own little world will never be "synchronised" with other players' solo careers and their content.
Even in theme park driven MMo's there should always be that feeling of freedom to play and follow a path you set out, not drilled by a prerecorded film maker.
By using vast amounts of prerecorded story lines, massive use of companion NPC's, in game cinematics that have nothing to do with multi player gameplay, you set out for an individual experience which is not what people seek in MMo's (not even the solo type player) for prolonged gameplay.
Up until now Bioware only created the single player adventure game (giving the player even NPC party members). The story is being made by the players in any succesful MMo. Sandbox or quest driven has nothing to do with it.
It is the player interaction that makes the individual story set in a world (or Lore) as a backdrop. Even for crafting there is a player to player story used (from gathering to fighting to crafting).
The "great job done m8" is the real story of an MMo, never the bombastic speech of a prerecorded NPC ending a story line.
Most player driven stories are generic from one MMO to another and are no way as interesting as the stories some game developers write.
please give me an example of an awesome player driven story within an MMO that doesnt include developer written content.
Most player driven stories are generic from one MMO to another and are no way as interesting as the stories some game developers write.
please give me an example of an awesome player driven story within an MMO that doesnt include developer written content.
I don't understand it too what these player driven stories are that can be undermined by an main story. Do they mean that guild drama? Those occasionally gatherings for pvp or whatever? Like that article posted here on when that guy asked why were they killing Onyxia and the answers were for the purplez. That's the player driven story. Nice stories but kinda shallow and repetitive. And I still don't understand how can a main story donne properly undermine the player's driven stories.
Most player driven stories are generic from one MMO to another and are no way as interesting as the stories some game developers write.
please give me an example of an awesome player driven story within an MMO that doesnt include developer written content.
I don't understand it too what these player driven stories are that can be undermined by an main story. Do they mean that guild drama? Those occasionally gatherings for pvp or whatever? Like that article posted here on when that guy asked why were they killing Onyxia and the answers were for the purplez. That's the player driven story. Nice stories but kinda shallow and repetitive. And I still don't understand how can a main story donne properly undermine the player's driven stories.
Exactly. All I can think of with player driven stories is Guild Role-Playing. But they are still battling or questing using the stories written within the game.
as i've mentioned earlier in this thread that I can see how its done via PVP.
Most player driven stories are generic from one MMO to another and are no way as interesting as the stories some game developers write.
please give me an example of an awesome player driven story within an MMO that doesnt include developer written content.
I don't understand it too what these player driven stories are that can be undermined by an main story. Do they mean that guild drama? Those occasionally gatherings for pvp or whatever? Like that article posted here on when that guy asked why were they killing Onyxia and the answers were for the purplez. That's the player driven story. Nice stories but kinda shallow and repetitive. And I still don't understand how can a main story donne properly undermine the player's driven stories.
Exactly. All I can think of with player driven stories is Guild Role-Playing. But they are still battling or questing using the stories written within the game.
as i've mentioned earlier in this thread that I can see how its done via PVP.
A simple answer: the story behind the player is that he chooses how to play what he plays within his own story frame.
A generic written fixed story to follow is a one time event that doesn't invite to repeated gameplay at all. In no way it is as "epic" as players gaming the events.
The interaction between players in MMO generates the stories. In your example of Onyxia: the group fight itself and how they will interact to achieve this goal is far more epic than ANY NPC prerecorded in game cinematic could achieve.
Now that's a simple fight's story: you could use overall stories to what players experience: as I invite my friends to take on a City Raid of go for set-up goals that don't even follow questing lines. Remember the big kiting of Dragons and other bosses throughout several zones to arrive at your home city. Epic event and created by the players, even in "theme parc" driven MMo's. Those events are burned into the memories of players.
A simple example would be: Try to catch a very rare fish in an enemy city. It is rewarded in game, but it doesn't even acquire a quest or story line at all. It is set up by the players, executed through following a strategic plan and it gets you an achievement award. The player adventures freely.
That's the difference between on line games - in which collaboration is used to form player created goals (with or without help of the designer) and the fixed laid out pre planned route of single player games with NPC's handing out the stories.
MMo's only need to hand out the stage and settings, it is up to the players to game the story, NOT to read it and get laid by an NPC.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
A simple answer: the story behind the player is that he chooses how to play what he plays within his own story frame.
A generic written fixed story to follow is a one time event that doesn't invite to repeated gameplay at all. In no way it is as "epic" as players gaming the events.
The interaction between players in MMO generates the stories. In your example of Onyxia: the group fight itself and how they will interact to achieve this goal is far more epic than ANY NPC prerecorded in game cinematic could achieve.
Now that's a simple fight's story: you could use overall stories to what players experience: as I invite my friends to take on a City Raid of go for set-up goals that don't even follow questing lines.
A simple example would be: Try to catch a very rare fish in an enemy city. It is rewarded in game, but it doesn't even acquire a quest or story line at all. It is set up by the players, executed through following a strategic plan and it gets you an achievement award. The player adventures freely.
That's the difference between on line games - in which collaboration is used to form player created goals (with or without help of the designer) and the fixed laid out pre planned route of single player games with NPC's handing out the stories.
MMo's only need to hand out the stage and settings, it is up to the players to game the story, NOT to read it and get laid by an NPC.
Okey but how the main story of a game can distrupt your own story. In the case of Onyxia the game gives a detailled story about what she is, what she has donne and why should her be killed but that didn't seam to interfere to those that didn't care. It's just there for those who care. It's like an additional feature not the main goal of the game. You can still have all the drama you want and everything you can come with regardless the existence or lack there of the main story. For me the main story serves to further shape and enhance the virtual world. You are not bound to it though and in no way the virtual world will end once you finished the quests.
A simple answer: the story behind the player is that he chooses how to play what he plays within his own story frame.
A generic written fixed story to follow is a one time event that doesn't invite to repeated gameplay at all. In no way it is as "epic" as players gaming the events.
The interaction between players in MMO generates the stories. In your example of Onyxia: the group fight itself and how they will interact to achieve this goal is far more epic than ANY NPC prerecorded in game cinematic could achieve.
Now that's a simple fight's story: you could use overall stories to what players experience: as I invite my friends to take on a City Raid of go for set-up goals that don't even follow questing lines.
A simple example would be: Try to catch a very rare fish in an enemy city. It is rewarded in game, but it doesn't even acquire a quest or story line at all. It is set up by the players, executed through following a strategic plan and it gets you an achievement award. The player adventures freely.
That's the difference between on line games - in which collaboration is used to form player created goals (with or without help of the designer) and the fixed laid out pre planned route of single player games with NPC's handing out the stories.
MMo's only need to hand out the stage and settings, it is up to the players to game the story, NOT to read it and get laid by an NPC.
Okey but how the main story of a game can distrupt your own story. In the case of Onyxia the game gives a detailled story about what she is, what she has donne and why should her be killed but that didn't seam to interfere to those that didn't care. It's just there for those who care. It's like an additional feature not the main goal of the game. You can still have all the drama you want and everything you can come with regardless the existence or lack there of the main story. For me the main story serves to further shape and enhance the virtual world. You are not bound to it though and in no way the virtual world will end once you finished the quests.
The "disruption" comes from the techniques used by Bioware to "enhance" the immersion.
Those techniques (LOTS of in game speech - NPC companions - in game cinematics) are a boost to single player games but unneeded as a core mechanic in MMo's.
They even disrupt the core play mechanics of on line communications in an MMO. The most important aspect of any MMorpg is ... the access to other players (be it through economy or adventures).
Any tool that seperates the players too much and let them follow "their" own "petite" stories is disrupting the core principle of an MMo.
---
"Shut up", I am listening to the 2 minutes voice over from this NPC , so I can choose what I have to do...is disruptive in any MMO.
First MY preprogrammed story to FOLLOW, then my NPC companion, then the other player is simply wrong for games destined to play on line for longer periods of time.
In solo games you don't have much choice: you have to create the NPC's. In MMo's NPC's and fixed single stories are merely a backdrop, a stage setting, no need to give them the glory.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
That's why single player console companies shouldn't think they know wtf they are talking about when they just jump in to the mmo scene after 15+ years....Let them tell 13 year old Ultima Online that it has no point...The fact that they think that proves that they have no right to be here.
That's why single player console companies shouldn't think they know wtf they are talking about when they just jump in to the mmo scene after 15+ years....Let them tell 13 year old Ultima Online that it has no point...The fact that they think that proves that they have no right to be here.
They have 3 million followers , beats your UO 200k followers .
200k 80% dropped off when the going gets tough or were only mages left .
So you going to say you enjoyed the last parts of UO online ?
That's why single player console companies shouldn't think they know wtf they are talking about when they just jump in to the mmo scene after 15+ years....Let them tell 13 year old Ultima Online that it has no point...The fact that they think that proves that they have no right to be here.
They have 3 million followers , beats your UO 200k followers .
200k 80% dropped off when the going gets tough or were only mages left .
So you going to say you enjoyed the last parts of UO online ?
That's not the point. The point is UO is still around. How many "followers" did swg have? And even swg is still around. Bioware is out of its league. And yes, the new UO client is awsome.
That's why single player console companies shouldn't think they know wtf they are talking about when they just jump in to the mmo scene after 15+ years....Let them tell 13 year old Ultima Online that it has no point...The fact that they think that proves that they have no right to be here.
They have 3 million followers , beats your UO 200k followers .
200k 80% dropped off when the going gets tough or were only mages left .
So you going to say you enjoyed the last parts of UO online ?
That's not the point. The point is UO is still around. How many "followers" did swg have? And even swg is still around. Bioware is out of its league. And yes, the new UO client is awsome.
I would say bioware is not out of the league , dont get me wrong i am tired off mmo games only 2 left to eliminate is wow and cox .
Of all the products i seen released these 2 years i knew they would FAIL .
This one is the only one i can see that it might succeed , not cause of you and me .
But cause of there own bioware followers , who are decent people , thats what mmo is based on .
The success is not a wow beater nobody can beat wow , only one who will destroy wow is blizzard themself .
Look if a trash game like 2nd life can succeed beyond the creators wildest dreams . its nothing but ERP CYBER shit .
Then why should this game fail ? Maybe i am wrong .
But i think they definetly have the right to make a statement that current MMO has no points .
The "disruption" comes from the techniques used by Bioware to "enhance" the immersion.
Those techniques (LOTS of in game speech - NPC companions - in game cinematics) are a boost to single player games but unneeded as a core mechanic in MMo's.
They even disrupt the core play mechanics of on line communications in an MMO. The most important aspect of any MMorpg is ... the access to other players (be it through economy or adventures).
Any tool that seperates the players too much and let them follow "their" own "petite" stories is disrupting the core principle of an MMo.
---
"Shut up", I am listening to the 2 minutes voice over from this NPC , so I can choose what I have to do...is disruptive in any MMO.
First MY preprogrammed story to FOLLOW, then my NPC companion, then the other player is simply wrong for games destined to play on line for longer periods of time.
In solo games you don't have much choice: you have to create the NPC's. In MMo's NPC's and fixed single stories are merely a backdrop, a stage setting, no need to give them the glory.
I aggre that companions and dividing so much players into classes stories is not a good move. I was not talking about SWtor specifically but the role a story can have in mmo in general. If donne properly it will not affect the community while adding immersion in to the world.
I have my doubts too about bioware's aproach but time will tell.
The "disruption" comes from the techniques used by Bioware to "enhance" the immersion.
Those techniques (LOTS of in game speech - NPC companions - in game cinematics) are a boost to single player games but unneeded as a core mechanic in MMo's.
They even disrupt the core play mechanics of on line communications in an MMO. The most important aspect of any MMorpg is ... the access to other players (be it through economy or adventures).
Any tool that seperates the players too much and let them follow "their" own "petite" stories is disrupting the core principle of an MMo.
---
"Shut up", I am listening to the 2 minutes voice over from this NPC , so I can choose what I have to do...is disruptive in any MMO.
First MY preprogrammed story to FOLLOW, then my NPC companion, then the other player is simply wrong for games destined to play on line for longer periods of time.
In solo games you don't have much choice: you have to create the NPC's. In MMo's NPC's and fixed single stories are merely a backdrop, a stage setting, no need to give them the glory.
I aggre that companions and dividing so much players into classes stories is not a good move. I was not talking about SWtor specifically but the role a story can have in mmo in general. If donne properly it will not affect the community while adding immersion in to the world.
I have my doubts too about bioware's aproach but time will tell.
The main reason MMO in the past were so popular cause people were creative , you dont need lore whatever to create your own stories , there are guidelines .
Now concept of creativity has died a lot , sorry its the truth when cruel jokes or seemly inhuman of RED DEAD REDEMPTION DASTARDLY achievement brings out more emotions .
Then the average cinema movies , you all know creativity gone to hell .
This not a fault of SWTOR or WOW or any other MMO that comes , its the byproduct of generation turned cold .
Now i really hope the BIOWARE community can bring some spark back to creativity , but from Roleplayer point of view i hardly doubt it , still there dragon age story was amazing to say .
They always came with creativity and none linear solutions to a story , if delved deep enough you can fit in your own twist or sense of moral into a story .
Its a shame SWTOR arrived too late for me , cause am totally unnmmo addicted , maybe if it arrived 1 year earlier .
I would have garanteed it was a success .again just to be reunited with nwn 1 people .
Dont forget reason WOW was so successfull was the timing , NWN 1 opened the door for a lot of people worldwide .
Lets see if they timed SWTOR to take the benfit of wow retardness . would be a fitting karma , but for me its a bit too late.
Bioware is absolutely right as usual. Cranky MMO forum people might not like the direction but Joe the MMO player does. MMOs do in large have no point other than exploring the content. Once you've done that... its pointless. Never understood those that could play the same MMO for more than 6 months and still have fun. Its not the people because frankly they move on except for a core group. Its not the fun that is raiding 3-5 nights a week in the same tired dungeon. So yes Bioware is right, make it social, make it memorable and if people drop once they've experienced all of the content across all of the classes they want to try then thats ok.
WoW is not full of the same 12 million that were there a year ago, its a new bunch. If SWTOR can sustain 1 million subs through cycling gamers like WoW has they'll be just fine. And lets be honest here, the risk is on EA not Bioware
HAHAHA Thats the funniest thing I've ever heard. How many MMO developers out there havn't hyped up thier unfinished MMO?
Yeah, Bioware has made some popular games. But they aren't as big of a name as they think they are. Gauntlet indeed...More like a soggy latex glove that was the victim of a prostate exam.
I lost interest in this game when the introduced the Trooper class. I was like 'What did the storm troopers of Luke's time do? Hop in the Delorean and go back 3500 years?'
Bioware is absolutely right as usual. Cranky MMO forum people might not like the direction but Joe the MMO player does. MMOs do in large have no point other than exploring the content. Once you've done that... its pointless. Never understood those that could play the same MMO for more than 6 months and still have fun. Its not the people because frankly they move on except for a core group. Its not the fun that is raiding 3-5 nights a week in the same tired dungeon. So yes Bioware is right, make it social, make it memorable and if people drop once they've experienced all of the content across all of the classes they want to try then thats ok.
WoW is not full of the same 12 million that were there a year ago, its a new bunch. If SWTOR can sustain 1 million subs through cycling gamers like WoW has they'll be just fine. And lets be honest here, the risk is on EA not Bioware
ITs funny to read your post cause you do understand it , but you dont understand Joe is taking over .
Its Joe thats the ruler of wow nowadays , not the hardcore mmoers for play like me 5 years wow .
Sorry Joe money is more interesting then our steady source of subscribtion , since JOE will buy 3 accounts , or multibox 5 accounts , buy steeds and pets . and pays monthly instead of yearly (skip getting months for free)
Joe get enticed to buy expansions , we are already sure money , So everything is marketed to JOE .
But what you are right is about the core group of players , but if you haven´t guess the core group is getting burned out and down , its getting smaller the core in the past years . and replacement hardly are even worthwhile .
Dont forget most of the core already have found what they were looking for a female partner online . and you see less and less responsible people take over , and realise its not about power to run a guild .
And RL if you put down you play WOW lol i wouldn´t recommend that in a CV . definetly a lets not hire that one . he has to raid 3 days a week so imagine deadlines and lack of sleep .
Now here is the story why it has the most potential success , SWTOR brings there own core group .
Something no other game had , Warhammer (you mean those selfishe rule lawyers ? ) .
Thats why it got my vote for most likely to succeed , same way if blizzard decides to make a WOW 2 or World of Starcraft .
Comments
Naughty, your acting like Bioware telling us what the point of an MMO is!
It comes down to personal preference with regard to the point of an MMO. Personally, like in real life, I like to take challenges on my own with no help what so ever. I just don't like to be dependent on people for help.
Forum posters might be thinking "Why the hell do you want to play an MMO?"
1. For the world.
2. For the story, the reason I'm here.
3. If I get bored of the the first 2, I can chill and chat to friends within the game. Or if i do get that annoyed with a story line, ask for help. but I do try and not ask for help. Just a trait of mine.
I NEED a story. Otherwise it will just be one gigantic grind fest. Also how do you create your OWN stories in a sandbox MMO? I can see how it can be done in EVE, but only through PVP. Any game following quests is not creating your OWN story. And using a profession to guide your story (eg, becoming an expert crafter or whatever and selling stuff in a shop) isn't a fun story. So, without PVP involved how do you create your OWN story?
Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself.
I still see that the SWG people are still bitching and moaning about TOR not being SWG2. Well, get over it. If you don't like what you see, no one is gonna put a gun to your head and make you play it. Bioware has said that the game will be a mixture of both sandbox and themepark. While i like what i see from BIoware, i surely don't think TOR will be the greatest thing in the world. I leave real life to satisfy that for me. What i do believe is that TOR will be a fun and well made game for me to play and be able to immerse myself in the star Wars world again.
The big difference between a single adventure game and an MMo is that in the first game you play alone surrounded by story telling NPC's using AI that makes a rabbit look like Einstein.
The techniques to enhance the story telling and immersive gameplay in solo games don't work in on line games.
Why? Each pre recorded video and speech conversation with an NPC is idiotic at best. In fact speaking to an NPC in an on line game is ... embarassing. It is like talking to a table in front of a crowd.
The tools to enhance that immersive story telling feeling in solo games are not only embarrassing in MMo's, they also hamper good communciations and interactions with other players in MMo's.
Examples: you watch the in game video and concentrate on the pre recorded speeches with quest giving NPC's instead of in game coms; you care more for your NPC companions (and their advancing story lines) than the people you should group with and advance; your own little world will never be "synchronised" with other players' solo careers and their content.
Even in theme park driven MMo's there should always be that feeling of freedom to play and follow a path you set out, not drilled by a prerecorded film maker.
By using vast amounts of prerecorded story lines, massive use of companion NPC's, in game cinematics that have nothing to do with multi player gameplay, you set out for an individual experience which is not what people seek in MMo's (not even the solo type player) for prolonged gameplay.
Up until now Bioware only created the single player adventure game (giving the player even NPC party members). The story is being made by the players in any succesful MMo. Sandbox or quest driven has nothing to do with it.
It is the player interaction that makes the individual story set in a world (or Lore) as a backdrop. Even for crafting there is a player to player story used (from gathering to fighting to crafting).
The "great job done m8" is the real story of an MMo, never the bombastic speech of a prerecorded NPC ending a story line.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
I've said it so many times, Bioware is out of touch with the MMO gamers, they have no clue what-so-ever what is a MMORPG and why people play them.
They should stick to what they do best, single player rpg games.
TOR gonna flop hard.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
Well we will never know for sure until we lay our hands in their game.
And know what their pricing model will be
Whoa... 41 pages? OD...
"Some people feel the rain. Others just get wet." -Bob Marley
I'm probably one of those people who just get wet.
It's going to be a very interesting experience,
In my view too, Bioware has made some major miscalculations:
They have aimed the game at too young a demographic.
They have made the game too constrictive and limited.
The features which Bioware is emphasing - story, voices, companions - don't necessarily suit an MMO, especially a Star Wars MMO, and seem to come at the expense of features which would have suited a Star Wars MMO better - flight combat, crafting professions, persistent housing.
I personally believe that after a massive launch which will see two-three or even five millions boxes sold that there will then be a massive backlash against this game some six to twelve months afyer launch. Whether it survives this blacklash will be the test of its success. Personally, I think it represents too much of an investment for EA to ever close down.
I hypothesise that the game will then be rebranded as an Online Single Player (whatever Mike B tells us it is or isn't) for which you will then pay a monthly rent. I think that the subscriber levels, though relatively low compared to WoW's continuing success and those of new MMO games in the pipeline, will be sufficiently profitable for the game to survive.
Most player driven stories are generic from one MMO to another and are no way as interesting as the stories some game developers write.
please give me an example of an awesome player driven story within an MMO that doesnt include developer written content.
I don't understand it too what these player driven stories are that can be undermined by an main story. Do they mean that guild drama? Those occasionally gatherings for pvp or whatever? Like that article posted here on when that guy asked why were they killing Onyxia and the answers were for the purplez. That's the player driven story. Nice stories but kinda shallow and repetitive. And I still don't understand how can a main story donne properly undermine the player's driven stories.
Exactly. All I can think of with player driven stories is Guild Role-Playing. But they are still battling or questing using the stories written within the game.
as i've mentioned earlier in this thread that I can see how its done via PVP.
A simple answer: the story behind the player is that he chooses how to play what he plays within his own story frame.
A generic written fixed story to follow is a one time event that doesn't invite to repeated gameplay at all. In no way it is as "epic" as players gaming the events.
The interaction between players in MMO generates the stories. In your example of Onyxia: the group fight itself and how they will interact to achieve this goal is far more epic than ANY NPC prerecorded in game cinematic could achieve.
Now that's a simple fight's story: you could use overall stories to what players experience: as I invite my friends to take on a City Raid of go for set-up goals that don't even follow questing lines. Remember the big kiting of Dragons and other bosses throughout several zones to arrive at your home city. Epic event and created by the players, even in "theme parc" driven MMo's. Those events are burned into the memories of players.
A simple example would be: Try to catch a very rare fish in an enemy city. It is rewarded in game, but it doesn't even acquire a quest or story line at all. It is set up by the players, executed through following a strategic plan and it gets you an achievement award. The player adventures freely.
That's the difference between on line games - in which collaboration is used to form player created goals (with or without help of the designer) and the fixed laid out pre planned route of single player games with NPC's handing out the stories.
MMo's only need to hand out the stage and settings, it is up to the players to game the story, NOT to read it and get laid by an NPC.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Okey but how the main story of a game can distrupt your own story. In the case of Onyxia the game gives a detailled story about what she is, what she has donne and why should her be killed but that didn't seam to interfere to those that didn't care. It's just there for those who care. It's like an additional feature not the main goal of the game. You can still have all the drama you want and everything you can come with regardless the existence or lack there of the main story. For me the main story serves to further shape and enhance the virtual world. You are not bound to it though and in no way the virtual world will end once you finished the quests.
The "disruption" comes from the techniques used by Bioware to "enhance" the immersion.
Those techniques (LOTS of in game speech - NPC companions - in game cinematics) are a boost to single player games but unneeded as a core mechanic in MMo's.
They even disrupt the core play mechanics of on line communications in an MMO. The most important aspect of any MMorpg is ... the access to other players (be it through economy or adventures).
Any tool that seperates the players too much and let them follow "their" own "petite" stories is disrupting the core principle of an MMo.
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"Shut up", I am listening to the 2 minutes voice over from this NPC , so I can choose what I have to do...is disruptive in any MMO.
First MY preprogrammed story to FOLLOW, then my NPC companion, then the other player is simply wrong for games destined to play on line for longer periods of time.
In solo games you don't have much choice: you have to create the NPC's. In MMo's NPC's and fixed single stories are merely a backdrop, a stage setting, no need to give them the glory.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Well currently all MMO have no points .
Tell me aside the people you are playing with ?
whats the point in playing the mmo you are currently playing ?
Do you make a big impact on the world ?
Do you think half a million to 1 million of experienced mmo players who farm daily the same crap . is worth more then 6 million shootemup players ?
This is the whole point to the market nowadays .
Every company can issue bold statement and pull statistic out of the thin air .
But very few people remember how you got hooked to the current mmo (if you are still playing)
Its not the game itself , but its the person/people who you interact with that got you hooked to a mmo .
And honestly there is no point in mmo games , if there are no worthwhile people to interact with .
That's why single player console companies shouldn't think they know wtf they are talking about when they just jump in to the mmo scene after 15+ years....Let them tell 13 year old Ultima Online that it has no point...The fact that they think that proves that they have no right to be here.
They have 3 million followers , beats your UO 200k followers .
200k 80% dropped off when the going gets tough or were only mages left .
So you going to say you enjoyed the last parts of UO online ?
That's not the point. The point is UO is still around. How many "followers" did swg have? And even swg is still around. Bioware is out of its league. And yes, the new UO client is awsome.
I would say bioware is not out of the league , dont get me wrong i am tired off mmo games only 2 left to eliminate is wow and cox .
Of all the products i seen released these 2 years i knew they would FAIL .
This one is the only one i can see that it might succeed , not cause of you and me .
But cause of there own bioware followers , who are decent people , thats what mmo is based on .
The success is not a wow beater nobody can beat wow , only one who will destroy wow is blizzard themself .
Look if a trash game like 2nd life can succeed beyond the creators wildest dreams . its nothing but ERP CYBER shit .
Then why should this game fail ? Maybe i am wrong .
But i think they definetly have the right to make a statement that current MMO has no points .
I aggre that companions and dividing so much players into classes stories is not a good move. I was not talking about SWtor specifically but the role a story can have in mmo in general. If donne properly it will not affect the community while adding immersion in to the world.
I have my doubts too about bioware's aproach but time will tell.
The main reason MMO in the past were so popular cause people were creative , you dont need lore whatever to create your own stories , there are guidelines .
Now concept of creativity has died a lot , sorry its the truth when cruel jokes or seemly inhuman of RED DEAD REDEMPTION DASTARDLY achievement brings out more emotions .
Then the average cinema movies , you all know creativity gone to hell .
This not a fault of SWTOR or WOW or any other MMO that comes , its the byproduct of generation turned cold .
Now i really hope the BIOWARE community can bring some spark back to creativity , but from Roleplayer point of view i hardly doubt it , still there dragon age story was amazing to say .
They always came with creativity and none linear solutions to a story , if delved deep enough you can fit in your own twist or sense of moral into a story .
Its a shame SWTOR arrived too late for me , cause am totally unnmmo addicted , maybe if it arrived 1 year earlier .
I would have garanteed it was a success .again just to be reunited with nwn 1 people .
Dont forget reason WOW was so successfull was the timing , NWN 1 opened the door for a lot of people worldwide .
Lets see if they timed SWTOR to take the benfit of wow retardness . would be a fitting karma , but for me its a bit too late.
Bioware is absolutely right as usual. Cranky MMO forum people might not like the direction but Joe the MMO player does. MMOs do in large have no point other than exploring the content. Once you've done that... its pointless. Never understood those that could play the same MMO for more than 6 months and still have fun. Its not the people because frankly they move on except for a core group. Its not the fun that is raiding 3-5 nights a week in the same tired dungeon. So yes Bioware is right, make it social, make it memorable and if people drop once they've experienced all of the content across all of the classes they want to try then thats ok.
WoW is not full of the same 12 million that were there a year ago, its a new bunch. If SWTOR can sustain 1 million subs through cycling gamers like WoW has they'll be just fine. And lets be honest here, the risk is on EA not Bioware
HAHAHA Thats the funniest thing I've ever heard. How many MMO developers out there havn't hyped up thier unfinished MMO?
Yeah, Bioware has made some popular games. But they aren't as big of a name as they think they are. Gauntlet indeed...More like a soggy latex glove that was the victim of a prostate exam.
I lost interest in this game when the introduced the Trooper class. I was like 'What did the storm troopers of Luke's time do? Hop in the Delorean and go back 3500 years?'
ITs funny to read your post cause you do understand it , but you dont understand Joe is taking over .
Its Joe thats the ruler of wow nowadays , not the hardcore mmoers for play like me 5 years wow .
Sorry Joe money is more interesting then our steady source of subscribtion , since JOE will buy 3 accounts , or multibox 5 accounts , buy steeds and pets . and pays monthly instead of yearly (skip getting months for free)
Joe get enticed to buy expansions , we are already sure money , So everything is marketed to JOE .
But what you are right is about the core group of players , but if you haven´t guess the core group is getting burned out and down , its getting smaller the core in the past years . and replacement hardly are even worthwhile .
Dont forget most of the core already have found what they were looking for a female partner online . and you see less and less responsible people take over , and realise its not about power to run a guild .
And RL if you put down you play WOW lol i wouldn´t recommend that in a CV . definetly a lets not hire that one . he has to raid 3 days a week
so imagine deadlines and lack of sleep .
Now here is the story why it has the most potential success , SWTOR brings there own core group .
Something no other game had , Warhammer (you mean those selfishe rule lawyers ? ) .
Thats why it got my vote for most likely to succeed , same way if blizzard decides to make a WOW 2 or World of Starcraft .
They already bring there own core .